For Any True Combat Sports Fan, Pacquiao vs. Cotto Crushes UFC 105
by Luke Thomas on Nov 15, 2009 1:18 AM EST
in MMA News
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It's not that UFC 105 was bad. It wasn't. In fact, it was fantastic, particularly the undercard. And if we are comparing undercards, then UFC 105 absolutely smashed anything the lame efforts of Top Rank could even hope to put together.
But if we are talking main events, Couture vs. Vera - as talented as they are, as spirited as they fought - couldn't hold a candle to the utter brilliance of Manny Pacquiao.
Bad Left Hook sums up what happened in Las Vegas:
Manny Pacquiao was sensational tonight in Las Vegas, knocking down Miguel Cotto twice, battering him throughout the majority of the fight, and forcing Kenny Bayless to stop the fight in the 12th round of a dominant performance, giving Pacquiao his 50th career win and arguably his most impressive.
Pacquiao (50-3-2, 38 JO) floored Cotto on timing shots in the third and fourth rounds, but after Cotto looked sharp, strong and fast early, he was dominated over the latter half of the fight. Pacquiao proved that there is no questioning his power at this weight, and no questioning his ability to take a good shot, either. He walked through some strong punches from Cotto (34-2, 27 KO) and seemed to barely feel them. Pacquiao, on the other hand, was able to hurt Cotto consistently.
...
He was faster, stronger, and better. Miguel Cotto isn't old, wasn't drained, isn't "overrated." Cotto did all he could tonight, but he was laid to waste by a superior fighter.
Pacquiao is now the WBO welterweight titleholder, the seventh weight class in which he's won a major title, the first man to ever do that.
...
Bayless, unlike Cotto's corner, protected the fight. Cotto was on his bike most of the latter rounds, straight-up running from Pacquiao. He was demoralized and in some ways embarrassed. His pride took a hit tonight. Cotto showed clear fear of Pacquiao in many rounds, and there's no disputing that.
Manny Pacquiao is a fighter unlike any other in the world.
I said it on The Lavar Arrington Show With Chad Dukes on Friday: I still believe the biggest draw in combat sports in Brock Lesnar. But if we are being honest with ourselves, the stars shone the most brightly tonight on the phenom from the Philippines who submitted the performance of a lifetime tonight in beating Miguel Cotto.
The problem with the UK fights are not that they are bad. Tonight they were hugely entertaining, although the Couture vs. Vera main event will surely be judged by the uninitiated to MMA as boring and defensively dull. I can only imagine the inept judging involved that robbed poor Vera only exacerbates their opinions. We should hold ourselves in awe of Randy Couture each and every time he competes with such incredible acumen, but tonight showed his weaknesses as much as his strengths.
So while the UK can host big fighters who can ostensibly make big fights, it doesn't have the magic of Las Vegas when two of boxing's (or MMA's) finest collide. It just hasn't been converted to that kind of territory yet. It will, but it's not there now. And when two of boxing's finest meet only to result in the ascendency of one of that sport's all-time greats directly before our eyes, denying the utter gravity of the matter seems quixotic, attacking windmills that signify nothing.
I don't mean to exhume a cheap MMA vs. boxing battle. If we are entering that contest, count me in for MMA ten times out of ten. I will always pick MMA as my favorite sport. But as a fan of all combat sports, I cannot deny what tonight means for us. I cannot avoid cosigning on the massive achievement of Manny Pacquiao in boxing just because I hold MMA the closest to my heart.
Next week the scales will be tipped in MMA's/UFC's favor once again. Ortiz vs. Griffin 2 is a fantastic fight and will be the life of the party in the fight capital of the world once again. But tonight - and only tonight - we must view matters with candor: the greatest combat athlete on the planet this evening - because of this evening's achievement - is Manny Pacquiao.
And like his fight with Cotto, it's wasn't even close.
Photo via ESPN.com.
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Fully agree...
The match had me hooked after, I felt Cotto stole the opening round, had Pacman taken it I would have turned it off due to assuming a blowout. The action was fast paced and exciting, something boxing hasn’t been for me in awhile.
although the Couture vs. Vera main event will surely be judged by the uninitiated to MMA as boring and defensively dull.
Many of the initiated felt so as well.
The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run. Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering BROCKLESNAR; to the last I grapple with thee.
by judonerd on Nov 15, 2009 1:27 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Agreed x10
Enough with the “ROBBERY!” BS everytime a close fight doesn’t score the way you see it.
I completely agree
Manny Pacquiao showed why he is one of the greatest fighters we have ever seen.
I liked UFC 105 but it just wasnt as electric as Pacquiao-Cotto
Even though my heart said Cotto, my wallet said Pacquiao and he once again proved why he is one of the greatest.
And this is coming from Caguas PR, where everything right now is as quiet as a cemetary.
My old man hails from Ponce. He was so crest-fallen last night.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Nov 15, 2009 8:03 AM EST up reply actions
Aside from that, I agree on all points but thinking Vera was robbed. But I really don’t like boxing, but watching Pacman is astounding. BLH says the only fight that matters for him now is Floyd – who wins that? I’d love to see Mayweather get clowned, but I dunno…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Nov 15, 2009 1:29 AM EST reply actions
quixotic
Christ, how did I fuck that up? I’ll fix it here in a minute.
I even remember the Simpson’s episode where Homer played scrabble and thought he had no words on his tablet.
Completelly disagree Cotto really showed why he’ll never be a great figher he’s the perfect example of a guy who comes out hard and strong early and wilts at the end. The same happened to him with Margaritto, at least with UFC 105 we got to see several good fights with young talented fighter making their mark. Paying this much money to see a guy basically get crushed for the majority of the fight is the reason why boxing while I enjoy it will never grab my attention like the MMA can.
Wait what.
Cotto is a fantastic fighter. He put up a better fight than anybody has against Manny in ages. Rematch Cotto with Martarito without plaster in his hands and I’m pretty certain we’d see an entirely different fight.
If the first few rounds of this fight didn’t blow your mind I don’t even know. I’d take this fight over the last few UFCs hands down.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
Not many guys would refrain from wilting when the other guy is swinging concrete blocks.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Completelly disagree Cotto really showed why he’ll never be a great figher he’s the perfect example of a guy who comes out hard and strong early and wilts at the end. The same happened to him with Margaritto,
Uhhhh….you do realize it’s about 98% likely Margarito was hitting him with hardened, plaster cast fists as Cotto was “wilt[ing] at the end” right?
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Of course boxing was bigger than mma 2nite
Regardless what anyone thinks of boxing when they get a huge match they do a huge match but they only do it what maybe 4 times a year.
That is what I never understand about the UFC they choose to compete with boxing and other mma.
If I was Dana White stop going head to head with boxing and other mma and just worry about putting the best product possible out there for the fans.
If Mayweather - Pacquiao doesnt happen the fans will be pissed
All tonight was great if Money May and Pac-Man doesnt come to fruition the fans will quickly turn from happyness of Pac-Man’s win to anger over that fight not happening.
That is why I like the UFC is because you dont have to sit here and figure all this bs out. What size gloves, what size ring, what weight is the fight at, what is the % cut.
If they can book May-Pac it will break the record for all time PPV buys but the big question is can they book it?
You say this after MMA failed to produce Fedor-Couture?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
And Fedor-Lesnar. Being sick and tired does not mesh well.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
But the difference in this case
is that Pac-Man and Money May are both not only popular with the hardcore fans but the casual fans and so you’ll have a bigger mass of people pissed if it doesnt.
Fedor was never hugely popular with the casual fans at least when they were trying to put that fight together. The hardcore fans wanted it bad but the casual fans didnt.
With Fedor getting more exposure on CBS if he stays unbeaten and if Brock can return and look like the monster than that will be the fight for mma that has to happen because both guys will be huge stars.
People were more hungry for Fedor-Lesnar then they were Fedor-Couture.
Honestly
Not the same level of fight. I’m an MMA fan to the bone. I only watch the big boxing fights. But Mayweather – Pacquaio is a FAR bigger fight than Couture – Fedor ever would be.
Boxers are still so much more polished technical fighters
It was a joy watching manny vs cotto tonight. 105 was very boring and the lack of talent was a joke. Then I turn on the boxing match and Im like Holy shit these can fight and they can take a punch…I see the steam coming out of MMA (especially with all the injuries to the champs)…Dana White would be smart to start selling his stake in the UFC right about now
talking about the lack of talent, lack of potential great fighters, lack of huge public interest, top fighters always getting injured….I not saying that the UFC is going anywhere but I am saying that it is at its peak right now and will not grow anymore, so Dana should sell a portion so he can maximize profit….come on now- did anyone of the 105 fighters tonight impress you to say “wow, that guy is an outstanding fighter, what a talented athlete”??? Not me – most of the time Im saying shit like"get your fucking hand up", your so fucking slow, why are you so scared to punch…shit like that
ohhh so your the TV cornerman
And you seem to be the only person not impressed with Dan Hardy, or Bisping (who I dont like) looking impressive against someone who was thought to be a superior fighter, or Andre Winners speed, or Ross Pearsons combinations.
There was a lot to be impressed about on UFC 105
by IRodC on Nov 15, 2009 2:08 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No offense because I like boxing
but I’d be interested to see how many of those boxers can take a punch with the lighter gloves.
As for selling his stake in the UFC you do realize that mma will still sell more PPV’s than boxing this year right?
No, I would too — the lighter gloves are an enormous difference and I have said that a billion times when talking about the two sports in comparison.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2009 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
well boxers use short crisp technical punches not looping slow punches – so I think boxers would benefit from the lighter gloves
You're not getting it
you said you were impressed that the boxers could “take a punch” better than the MMA guys. That’s mostly (only?) true because the MMA guys have lighter gloves. If the boxers used the same gloves, their ability to take a punch would be the same as the MMA guys.
They would benefit because of technique, absolutely, but it’s about the difference in punch resistance with the gloves.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2009 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
How exactly would boxers switching from 16oz to 4oz gloves affect the game? What would the change in forces be? How are the physics different? What do you mean by “punch resistance”? Inquiring minds want to know…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Nov 15, 2009 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
Significantly changing technique to cover up? Newtonian laws remain constant. Force (F = m*a) would still be equal, pressure (p = f/a) would be increased.
I don’t mean for this to be an accusation or a “THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW?!” question, but want to know if you have you ever been hit with 16oz gloves, 4oz gloves, and/or bare knuckles?
Tonights fight was with 8 oz gloves. 8 and 10 oz are the norm.
by John Nash on Nov 15, 2009 3:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I haven’t been hit by a fist since I stopped taking karate in the 4th grade. Volleyballs, basketballs, soccer balls, tennis balls, etc – I’ve totally got those covered. I was hit with a flying knee in a soccer game, but I don’t remember it at all (got knocked out cold). Also knocked out by a baseball running to home in PE – outfielder beaned me somehow.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Nov 15, 2009 3:17 AM EST up reply actions
Gotcha.
On top of the basic physics formulas I threw up above, if you get hit with different weights in gloves, you absolutely know the difference. I personaly can’t tell between getting hit with 8s and 10s, but 10s and 4s… it’s huge. Subjective, but significant. Aside from that, watch how Shogun covers up when he’s moving backwards in the Chuck fight compared to how any boxer does. Very different technique that the gloves dictate.
I’m totally with you on the brutality of soccer. I have a buddy currently playing at the college level who’s normally well mannered and somewhat reserved. On the field, he used to act like old school Wanderlei.
Which hurts more - smaller or larger gloves?
Did you hear about the female soccer player suspended for yanking down an opponent by her hair?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Nov 15, 2009 3:34 AM EST up reply actions
You feel a hit from smaller gloves way more. Not fun.
And yeah, I saw that story. She was crazy all game. You know if that’s a pattern with her or what?
PS
I’ve never been knocked out cold, but the closest I’ve gotten was during a street scuffle*. Got clocked clean on the chin from somebody I didn’t even see who snuck up and bopped me. Bare knuckles + chin = me not being sure why my knees don’t feel like they are made of solids anymore and then reacting purely on instinct for a good 5 seconds.
*It’s stupid, but I put myself in a dangerous situation to protect a friend. Not trying to brag or say I’m “street certified”, I’m actually really embarrassed about the whole situation.
Yeah but that’s the overall weight of the glove. An 8 oz boxing glove has a big pad on the thumb and up the forearm. An MMA glove does not. I’m not convinced there’s much difference.
"I swear to God, I'll take this ******* ball and shove it down your ******* throat" - Serena Williams
You should be.
Besides the size of the glove helping in defense, there is a huge difference in how much the bigger gloves protect the hand, which lets people throw harder, and also how exactly the smaller gloves hit the face, which effects if you get koed.
If it made no difference, why wouldn’t mma fighters always spar in 4 oz gloves? When they are training strking they are usually wearing giant pillows for a reason.
everybody spars with 16 oz gloves or larger. I’ve never been in a gym (been in a few), where less than 16 oz gloves are allowed for full-contact sparring. Been in a few that required 18.
I agree on protection, certainly a boxing glove of any size offers more protection on defense.
"I swear to God, I'll take this ******* ball and shove it down your ******* throat" - Serena Williams
The lighter glove can mask things like technique. We’ve seen some spectacular KOs in MMA that we just don’t see in boxing. That’s all I mean. I’m no rocket surgeon, I’m not trying to blow minds or nothin’.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2009 3:05 AM EST up reply actions
Training and sparring in both types of gloves boxing gloves create bad habbits if you are going to fight in 4 oz gloves, most noticable for me was defence. WIth boxing gloves on they are big enough that i put them in front og my face and there was little room for the other big glove to fit through. I could cover up and feel safe, but not the case with 4 oz gloves. With the MMA type gloves they are small and holding them up is not enough, fist slip through more easily.
8 oz gloves
The gloves Pac and Cotto wore last night were 8 oz Reyes gloves, the tightest packed gloves on the market.
And, wrist support half-way up the elbow.
I’ve worn both types of gloves, I don’t notice much difference in padding on the relevant part of the hand.
"I swear to God, I'll take this ******* ball and shove it down your ******* throat" - Serena Williams
more shows = more pay per views but the boxing shows are more entertaining and have better talent…if lesnar has to retire who will be the big draw that the UFC needs?
If Lesanr retired they might not have the huge guy to sell a ppv
like a Mayweather or Pacquiao but those are the only 2 huge draws still active in boxing.
Where the UFC still has a ton of stars that can sell 500k+ ppv: BJ Penn, GSP, Machida, Couture,etc..
Who outside of Manny and Floyd in boxing can headline a PPV that will garner more than 300k buys and I’m talking active fighters.
thanks for the link, Luke
Always appreciated. Looking forward to watching 105 tomorrow morning, too.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
Sigh...
weoweoweo.deviantart.com -- @antontabuena
Due to the Questionable decision: "The only thing Fishbob does consistently is dissapoint."
IS EVERY CLOSE FIGHT A ROBBERY NOW?
I can only imagine the inept judging involved that robbed poor Vera only exacerbates their opinions.
Im a huge Shogun fan, thought he won, but wouldnt go as far as to say he was robbed… But this s***! Come on! Couture won 2 of 3 rounds, or split 2 and tied 1.
Seems like “Robbery” is the battle cry after every close fight now. It wasnt pretty, but Randy did enough to win. More than Machida did last month.
When the entire fight is a positional clinch battle with very few exchanges in space, the fight comes down to grappling and octagon control… Randy took those two categories IMO.
Before long, if any fight goes the distance, its going to be labeled ROBBERY!
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
I now believe it when keith said that a judge had Kenny winning on the BJ fight..
weoweoweo.deviantart.com -- @antontabuena
Due to the Questionable decision: "The only thing Fishbob does consistently is dissapoint."
My facebook status at about round 4 or 5 was “I love MMA but Pacquiao is the most exciting fighter in the world” Pacquiao’s technical brilliance is undeniable and he brings it every fight. He doesn’t dance and jab his way to a boring victory, he destroys his opponents with brutal speed. He is what every great fighter should aspire to be. No one watches Pacquiao and thinks he held back any of his potential firepower in order to stay safe. Every great fighter should leave a destroyed opponent in their wake.
As a whole, I preferred UFC 105 to Pacquiao/Cotto. The pre-fight build-up footage and the undercard on the boxing card bored me to tears, and just had me kept turning the channel back to Spike. Just comparing the main events, then yeah, Pacquiao/Cotto was slightly better, though its sad to see a fight where after the midpoint, people are just waiting for the losing fighter to quit.
In the Philippines? No, of course not.
If we’re talking PPV buys, it’s extremely debatable. The notion that “it’s not even close” is just demonstrably false. 1.5 with ODLH and ostensibly 825k with Hatton is nothing to sneeze at, but certainly not evidence he clearly outdraws Lesnar. There are a ton of variables to measure on Lesnar’s end as well, but to say “it’s not close” is flat wrong.
by Luke Thomas on Nov 15, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
How many big ppv's has Lesnar had? 1? And he did it on the most stacked MMA card I've seen in America.
This will be Manny’s 3rd fight in a row over 800k PPV buys. And 2 out of 3 over a million. Lesnar does not have Manny’s track record. It’s not a debate.
But Brock isn't a draw!
That was all because of Couture for the first one, and GSP on the second! Brock can’t do anything good for MMA ever.
My brother and father (boxing nuthuggers) keep saying that Pacman or any top boxer would destroy MMA fighters.
Are you serious?
Mike Brown would murder Pacman by taking him down and subbing the hell out of him.
I like boxing.
What I don’t like is paying $65 to watch one fight at 6:1 odds when there are free MMA fights on.
Big picure:
$65 vs free
Winning belts in seven weight classes – that’s a selling point for boxing?
WBO – wasn’t too long ago that was a clear 4th rate belt?
Even if the boxingmatch was technically better, the fight illustrated why I gave up on trying to follow that sport.
If you’re focusing on the belt you’re focusing on the wrong thing.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 15, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Because belts in boxing have become irrelevant. That’s my point. I prefer sports that have champions.
Because MMA doesn’t have nine million “titles” floating around either………
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Unless Pacquaio announced after the fight...
…that he’s learning BJJ so he can jump to the UFC, why should we give a shit about this?
I’m glad the boxing folks had fun last night, too, but I really don’t see what this has to do with MMA. Can’t we just enjoy the free and entertaining card we all just watched, and let the boxing fans do whatever it is that boxing fans do?
by Vlad on Nov 15, 2009 1:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
We talk about combat sports around here…sorry but that’s just how it is.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 15, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It says it on the title
FOR TRUE COMBAT SPORTS FANS
If youre just an MMA fan this article is just not for you
That’s kind of like saying you love the decathalon, but hate it when people want to talk about LaShawn Merrit running the 400 meters.
by John Nash on Nov 15, 2009 2:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Can’t we just enjoy the free and entertaining card we all just watched, and let the boxing fans do whatever it is that boxing fans do?
Amazingly, we also do this “enjoy.” But we don’t call it that in our native tongue. We call it “gl’ish gl’ash.”
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Fine
I’m officially starting the rumor that Pacquiao is currently training with Eddie Bravo.
You heard it here first.
i watched it live last night, it was a one sided beat down, aside from the 1rst 3 rnds. how does that make for a great fight or even a great event. this site has become so anti-ufc as of late it’s really turning me off. i love boxing, but ufc 105 as a whole was far superior to 1 great fighter having 1 great fight. yes i read the entire article. it’s the title that is B.S. and made me wonder if i have been wasting my time coming here. the ufc is a little down and out right now, so they are being piled on, but when they come back stronger than ever, and THEY WILL, you’ll go back to more “positive” stories to please the massess.
Anti-UFC?!
What the hell?
A one sided fight is amazing if it was supposed to be very close. GSP comes to mind; BJ, Fitch and Alves were are supposed to be legitimate threats to him and the fights were supposed to be back and forth wars. Instead, GSP completely destroyed every one of them.
Also, if you leave this site, good luck finding intelligent MMA discussion elsewhere.
Dude...
this site is so far from being anti-UFC that it isn’t funny. If us talking about Manny Pacquiao being the best combat athlete LAST NIGHT then…um…go somewhere else.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 15, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Also...
your reading comprehension needs some work:
And if we are comparing undercards, then UFC 105 absolutely smashed anything the lame efforts of Top Rank could even hope to put together.
this would be Luke clearly saying the overall show was better.
But if we are talking main events, Couture vs. Vera – as talented as they are, as spirited as they fought – couldn’t hold a candle to the utter brilliance of Manny Pacquiao.
this would be Luke saying that Manny was simply brilliant v. a rather boring main event on 105
The problem with the UK fights are not that they are bad. Tonight they were hugely entertaining,
Next week the scales will be tipped in MMA’s/UFC’s favor once again. Ortiz vs. Griffin 2 is a fantastic fight and will be the life of the party in the fight capital of the world once again. But tonight – and only tonight – we must view matters with candor: the greatest combat athlete on the planet this evening – because of this evening’s achievement – is Manny Pacquiao.
If you’re reading this and going “THIS SITE IS SO ANTI-UFC” then…really you’ve made your own determinations prior to actually reading.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 15, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry if this has already been covered, but was it weird for Dana to put Vera on against Pacquiou? I can see how it was just a coincidence and how the two fights wouldn’t overlap in the Phillipines or for people with DVRs, but still…
Does anyone know how putting Vera on the same night was perceived by Phillipinos in the US?
by casey manrique on Nov 16, 2009 12:12 AM EST reply actions
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