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Controversial Decision Propels Couture to Possible Title Shot

1258260280_randy-couture_medium

"I think we have a real problem with judging in MMA" - Joe Rogan

My latest column for Heavy.com deals with the fallout from the Randy Couture's victory over Brandon Vera and the degree to which the decision was controversial.

This was not a decision on the level of last month’s Machida v. Rua decision, where one fighter had so clearly done more damage to his opponent that it raised questions about the competency of both the officials scoring the fight and the scoring system itself. Rather, the problem in the scoring of the Couture v. Vera fight was the weight carried by two of the key scoring criterion: damage done and Octagon control. On Saturday in Manchester, England, it appeared that Octagon control was the deciding factor.

It's a shame that the judging even came into question, because I can't help but feel that neither man is in a well defined position. Sure, Couture could be booked against Machida or one of the other top contenders, but did he really prove that he's up to that challenge in the fight with Vera? I really don't think so. 

The other side of the coin is that, questionable decision or not, Randy Couture earned a victory in his return to the Light Heavyweight division. This is likely a double-edged sword. On the one hand, Couture’s stock is such that a victory, any victory, should position him as one of the top two or three contenders to Lyoto Machida’s Light Heavyweight Championship. On the other hand, Randy is still a 46-year old fighter coming off a questionable decision against an opponent who many fans wanted to see Couture dominate. Although we may see Couture in the mix as a top contender in his next match, it’s difficult to say whether or not he can legitimately contend in the division. The questions about Couture coming into the fight with Vera have not been sufficiently answered.

What do you think: am I totally wrong about Couture?

As for Vera, I know I'm in the minority on this one, but the loss has me worried for Vera's position in the UFC. I'd like to think that he acquitted himself well enough that even the haters would give him his due, but let's be realistic. While a good showing against an MMA legend should mean something, the fact that Vera is passionately disliked by so many folks is an unfortunate circumstance that both he and the UFC have to deal with. Could that mean Vera's done with the UFC? Hopefully not, but I doubt anyone would be particularly surprised if that turns out to be the case.

"This does nothing to hurt your career," Rogan told Vera in an attempt to console him. That may not be true. The sentiment has always been that Vera, half-Filipino himself, is something of a star amongst the Filipino community. Still, he’s by no means Manny Pacquiao, nor does the UFC appear to have plans to put on an event in the Philippines in the next year. It would seem rather rash to cut Vera after this particular loss, but the fact remains that Vera has lost the fights he’s needed to win to become a contender, and his victories have not won over the fan base at large. It would be hasty to cut Vera after this particular decision, but the UFC hasn’t exactly shied away from making these sorts of personnel decisions in the past.

Check out the rest of the column, in which I talk more about how this outcome affected Brandon Vera as well as the likely tipping point in favor of Randy Couture.

(art via Heavy.com)

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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The problem with Vera remains can he beat a big name

Sure he beat Frank Mir but I’m talking since the contract dispuite he is 3-4 with wins over Reese Andy, Mike Patt, and Krzysztof Soszynski and now loses to Sylvia, Werdum, Jardine, and Couture.

As for Couture I think he gets put in a big name battle based soley on the fact that the LHW contenders are not there. Besides Shogun there is Rampage (retired), Evans (just beat), and T. Silva (just beat), A. Silva (wont fight), Mousasi (Strikeforce), Griffin or Franklin (both coming off loses) and Lil Nog and L. Cane (not big enough names yet).

by bigdmmafan on Nov 15, 2009 12:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s a smart match for the UFC to make, putting Couture with Machida. From a competitive standpoint, I just don’t think Couture showed anything against Vera to indicate that he belongs in a title match at this point.

I agree 100% about Vera. You cited every opponent he’s had that would have put him in a position to contend for a title, and he’s failed to make good on each of those opportunities. He’s young at 32, but he’s not that young. At some point you have to figure that the UFC is going to want Vera to poop or get off the pot, so to speak.

A loss to Randy freakin’ Couture shouldn’t lead to anyone’s ouster as far as I’m concerned, even if he is closer to 50 than 40. Still, if Vera can’t definitively prove that he’s one of the best at Light Heavyweight, the UFC may conclude that he’s not worth the money. I really, really hope they don’t, because I really like Brandon a lot.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If the UFC hasn’t cut Vera already, they’re not going to cut him now. Besides, they’ve already slashed his pay big-time – he went from 100K/100K at UFN 14 to 30K/30K at UFC 96.

Brandon hasn’t been popular but the bad decision but have actually made some people like him. I personally respect him a lot more after his performance last night. He fought Randy’s vertical lay-and-pray pretty well.

by MMAEruption on Nov 15, 2009 8:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who do you think gets the next shot after Shogun then? Evans if he beats Thiago Silva? The winner of Griffin v. Ortiz?

I think that Randy is at the point in his career where he’s not going to work his way up any ladders to get a title shot. One or two fights and that’s all he’ll need. Frankly, I think that’s about all he can handle at Light Heavyweight at this point.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well Shogun and Machida wont fight for a while, which I hope will give enough time for a legit challenger to come up or for Rampage to come back.

Randy isn’t at the stage where he has to work his way up (see title shot against Sylvia) but with such a stacked division the UFC has to sort of at least fake it, lol.

by Discman2 on Nov 15, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, more or less. The more I think about it, the more I think the Couture v. Coleman fight makes sense. Two hall of famers fighting to get in that title mix. That’s a pretty easy sell, especially since both guys are coming off of wins.

I mean, not that Mark Coleman really deserves a title shot, but I would be giddy to watch him fight Machida.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A title shot for Couture would be, IMO, crazy. I really doubt he could stand with any of the top three or four guys in the division. Vera didn’t fight a smart game plan (although you have to give Randy Couture credit for doing so)- when he did aggressively strike, he scored big, but he let Randy pull tight time and time again. I don’t think it helps that Vera probably leans forward more than 90% of the other fighters out there.

The main problem, aside from talent, is the way Brandon Vera could have beat Couture is to stay out of his range, strike from the outside, and make him pay if he lurches in too aggressively for the clinch. Probably the best guy at doing that in MMA is Lyoto Machida. Not only is he a much better fighter at this point in his career, his fighting style would be tailor-made to defeat Couture.

by TLow on Nov 15, 2009 2:58 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

With Machida still hurt and Shogun expected to get the next shot, it might be 9-12 months before the winner of that fight could take on Couture. At this point in his career, I just don’t think he’s going to wait that long. If Machida’s injury is going to take so long to heal that Shogun can fight in between, Shogun/Couture makes a lot of sense. Evans turned down Couture as a replacement for Rampage, I don’t know if he’s a very attractive opponent for anyone who feels they are one win away from a title shot.

The obvious guy that doesn’t have that particular issue is Anderson Silva.

by Stanlee on Nov 15, 2009 7:54 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The Anderson Silva fight makes a lot of sense. I believe Couture has said as much, too.

That’s a fight that Silva almost certain wins, but if Couture were to beat Silva, Couture would certainly earn a shot at the title.

As for Evans, I think he really missed the point when he was offered the fight with Couture. He talked about how it didn’t make sense for him, but facing one of the all-time greats when you can probably beat him will mean a nice pay day and a good bit of exposure. Oh well, now he can avenge his boy Jardine when Evans fights Thiago Silva. It’s a fine fight and all, but it’s no Evans v. Couture.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If Couture beat Silva I’d eat my shoes.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Nov 15, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it’s a longshot, but that would hardly be the biggest upset in MMA history.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You are of course referring to Slice/Petruzzeli.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Nov 15, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Slice/Petruzelli isn’t in the Top 10 actually. Sokoudjou over Minotoro is still number one.

by CSKit on Nov 15, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Slice/Petruzelli isn’t in the Top 10 actually. Sokoudjou over Minotoro is still number one.

by CSKit on Nov 15, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure...

how the hell I double posted, heh.

by CSKit on Nov 15, 2009 10:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

biggest upset moneyline wise was serra +775 vs gsp

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 15, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure how reliable mmaconvert is but they have Soko @ +1500 over Lil Nog and Serra @ +850 over GSP.

by CSKit on Nov 16, 2009 1:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Petruzelli beating Kimbo isn’t in the top 100 upsets. It’s not even an upset, it’s just a guy with no name value but superior skills stepping in at the last minute and proving that he has superior skills.

To me, the biggest upset is either Serra v. St. Pierre or Sokodjou v. Lil Nog. It’s been pointed out to me that Sokoudjou cemented himself as a legit fighter in subsequent matches, but to me, that doesn’t matter. Like you said, he came in as a +1000 (or more) underdog and just clobbered Lil Nog. No one outside of Team Quest Temecula had that happening, not anyone.

As for Serra, that was a huge upset, but at least people had actually seen him fight in the UFC before he trucked St. Pierre.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa

I come back after a day and see my sarcastic nod to Gus Johnson’s commentary went over some heads.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Nov 16, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That call would have been great if there was any truth behind it.

My buddy pointed out during the last Strikeforce show that Gus Johnson announced that Antonio Silva was returning to the US after spending a year fighting in Japan. That was a pretty good one.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I want to like Gus…but man does he need to learn about the sport.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Nov 16, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I won’t argue that, but he is a great announcer regardless. I think that’s more important, to be honest.

Then again, I know enough about the sport to where I don’t need the minutiae explained to me. But that’s what the color commentator is there for, anyway.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gus lost me when he said Shields was holding his breath to defend against the RNC…

by CSKit on Nov 16, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I missed that. I wish I hadn’t. That’s tremendous.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 17, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

those were cal neva odds based in reno/lake tahoe area.

they did or do not have soko +1500 over lil nog.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 16, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i dont even think

Shogun/Randy makes sense. As confident as i am judging on his last few performances that Shogun would put Randy away, imagine if Randy used his clinch skills again, like he did last night and somehow walked away with a decision victory. Shogun isnt even one win away from a title shot, he’s sitting waiting for an immediate rematch, he shouldnt have to fight someone like Couture purely to pass the time, potentially damaging his image/confidence, even if it didnt effect his title challenging status.

by TOON_UF on Nov 15, 2009 8:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think it’s a matter of Shogun having to fight someone to pass the time. I think it’s a matter of Shogun perhaps wanting another fight and another pay day while he waits for Machida to come off the shelf.

It would certainly be a win/win for the UFC. If Shogun wins, and I agree that he probably would beat Couture, then he’s got an even stronger case for a rematch and a bit more exposure to boot. If Couture wins, well, he’s Randy freakin’ Couture. You can see the promotion now: Can the elder strategist, Captain America, defeat the undefeated champion?

And if, against all odds, Couture were to defeat Machida, if Couture were able to rightfully knock off the man who had already lost the title in the eyes of so many, well, that would really be something special.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dont you think Shogun would feel a little hard done by though if Randy did somehow beat him?…alot of people think he beat Machida in the first place and Dana said that a rematch was deserved pretty much immediatly. Should he have to go through Randy to solidify that and he beats him then i agree, it would only increase his image and cement his place as the rightful no1 contender. However, should Randy somehow pull it off (and i wouldnt say it was totally impossible, i never would when its Couture in question..like you say, He’s Randy Couture), i think Shogun would feel slightly unfairly treated. If like you say though, Shogun does want to fight again to stay in his stride and for the sake of the pay day, then i suppose wouldnt complain about it happening, i’d just feel sorry for Shogun should captain america pull off the seemingly impossible again.

by TOON_UF on Nov 15, 2009 11:19 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well, the ball is in Shogun’s court, so to speak. He’s got the fight with Machida locked up. If he wants to fight in the meantime, then Randy probably makes the most sense for all parties.

Yeah, it would be a shame for Shogun to take the fight and lose, knocking himself out of the title match, but that’s something he’d have to consider before agreeing to the fight.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

very true, i said in my original post that i was confident Shogun would be able to win and like you say, beating someone like Randy Couture would work wonders not only for his image, but his confidence too, going into the fight with Machida. However, there’s no easy fight when it comes to the elite of the LHW division and regardless of what i predict the outcome would be, it would definitly still be a dangerous fight for Shogun to take. If he wants the fight though, then i’d salute him for wanting to stay competitive until Machida returns and would have no problem with it.

by TOON_UF on Nov 15, 2009 11:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sure. It’s a matter of weighing the risk versus the reward.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

Title shot… No.

Unless Shogun falls ill or something and nobody else comes forward, there is no way.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Nov 15, 2009 2:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

There are a few guys who have earned a shot more than Couture based on wins and losses, but only a few right now. Behind Shogun, Couture is certainly in the mix, even at this moment.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can’t even put into words how disgusted I would be if this was enough for a title shot.

by Ahhhoki on Nov 15, 2009 2:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Randy has done less for a title shot. On multiple occations.

by szucconi on Nov 15, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

losing + retiring + unretiring = title shot

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 16, 2009 1:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, when you’re one of the sport’s forebearers, it’s not really unreasonable.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 9:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That’s a good idea. And if Tito loses, I hope he fights Mark Coleman.

Or maybe Randy fights Mark Coleman next regardless.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun should get the next title shot.

Randy can fight the winner of Tito-Forrest.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Nov 15, 2009 6:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I say let that fight be a season of TUF.

Then depending on how long Machida is out, you have Shogun, Rashad/Thiago, and then that winner lined up for the title shots in 2010.

The only problem I see with that would be if Randy and Forrest have enough people at XC to scrounge up coaches for 2 teams, but I don’t think that would be too big of an issue.

by Phildo on Nov 15, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t really think that Randy can afford a six-month layoff at this point in his career.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That makes sense, but it could also be a payday for Randy that’s a lot easier on the body than taking a fight in those 6 months. Anything can work.

by Phildo on Nov 16, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the winner of Cane-Rogerio should fight the Tito/Forrest winner for the next shot. This way either a big name star or a new, emerging contender will get the shot. These fights are both at UFC 106 so therefore these 2 fighters will have an equal turnaround time and it should be easy to schedule the eliminator fight, perhaps at UFC 110 or maybe slightly later.

by StevenGiles on Nov 15, 2009 7:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I could be wrong on this, but I am pretty sure Lil Nog mentioned that he wouldn’t want to fight Machida because of their relationship. Annoying if I’m remembering correctly.

Additionally, neither Lil Nog nor Luiz Cane have the popularity to support them as contenders at this point. Sure, you and I know them, but the audience at large will be seeing Lil Nog for the first time when he fights Cane, and Cane, as good as he’s been in the UFC, was last seen opening the televised undercard for the Anderson Silva v. Thales Leites fight. Neither one is there just yet.

I feel like the winners of the Evans v. Silva and Griffin v. Ortiz matches will fight to determine Machida’s next opponent after Shogun. Alternately, Couture can fight either of the winners and the winner of Cane v. Lil Nog can fight the other winner of the aforementioned matches. Then, depending on just how long Machida finds himself on the shelf, that next set of winners can fight to determine the top contender after Shogun.

So, Couture could either find himself in that contender’s mix, or he could find himself just outside of the mix, facing someone like Mark Coleman or Keith Jardine. Between those two opponents, I home Couture is matched up with the former.

I don’t see the UFC putting Kimbo in with Couture, but there would be money to be made on that. For me, Kimbo fights Houston Alexander, then he fights Chuck. Realistically, that’s about all the shelf life he has in the UFC, but that’s a whole different topic.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 15, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ed Soares

said that Rogerio would be willing to fight Machida, if he had to. I don’t think that’s the problem.

I think that Randy/ Tito rematch would make sense if Tito beats Forrest (which I don’t think he will), but otherwise it should be Randy vs the Rashad/ Silva fight for the next title shot after Rua.

Shogun has dibs on the next title shot, that shouldn’t even be up for debate. Rashad and Thiago both got crushed by Machida. In the meantime, yes- give the Cane/ Rogerio winner a showcase match to increase their profile with the casuals

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Nov 16, 2009 1:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun has dibs on the next title shot, that shouldn’t even be up for debate

I agree, but we all understand that things can change. Karo Parisyan was the number one contender for the Welterweight title once upon a time, but he’s still waiting for that title shot.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This is true, shogun should get the next shot, but if he wants a fight in between it should be someone like Randy. They can’t risk Shogun losing to someone who isn’t ready for a title shot.

If Shogun fights someone before he fights Machida, it has to be someone who can get a title shot if they win.

by Phildo on Nov 16, 2009 10:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No one thinks they'll turn to the old standby Rich Franklin to headline a card?

Couture vs. Franklin in Q1 2010 anyone? I realize it would be a (relatively) quick turnaround for Couture, but his fight against Big Nog wan’t too long ago, either.

The only objection I could see raised here would be as to how it advances either fighter in the division. The counter to that would be $$$

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 16, 2009 1:44 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well, I think the winner would definitely move up the ladder. We’re talking about two of the UFC’s main event staples, even though Franklin is pretty low on that totem.

Actually, that’s a really clever suggestion, putting Franklin in with Couture. I like that almost as much as I’d like to see Couture fight Mark Coleman, and your match certainly means more from a sporting aspect.

...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.

"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard

by Brett Jones on Nov 16, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m on my phone so I can’t “rec” this but, REC 1,000,000 times! He should be fighting other fighters on their way out, not fighting guys that are trying to become stars. Give Couture Coleman, Tito or Chuck.

Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo

by ANance on Nov 16, 2009 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

People become stars by beating legends on their way out. It’s a tried and true boxing method and should have worked here. Too bad Vera was so gun shy.

by JonathanSnowden on Nov 16, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt beating Couture at this age was going to propel Veras career. A win against Machida, A. Silva, Rampage, hell even Shogun would do way more at this point. If Vera wouldve got the decision people would have said, “Yeah, but Randy is not the same fighter as he once was”. For the record, I thought this fight was pointless fromm the time it was announced.

Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo

by ANance on Nov 17, 2009 1:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

mythbuster

is wearing a green suit.

by Riney on Nov 16, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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