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Fedor vs the Bloody Elbow

 

I was watching the Shields vs Miller fight the other day and was unseemingly annoyed. At first I didn`t know why ( I like grapplers), since the fight was fairly entertaining, but then it hit me. It was all the un-natural positions they got in where they were able to just chill. Every fiber in my body was screaming "Elbow! ELBOW!!!", but of course, that wasn`t allowed. That left Shields sitting in Mayhems lap... and nothing even remotely dangerous was about to happen as long as they stayed in that position.

For some time now I`ve found it odd that the major american MMA organizations have rules that differ. It´s strange, since it`s the same sport and the same country. I could accept it for the dearly departed Affliction and IFL , since they were fighting in a ring, but why Strikeforce (and the late EliteXC) choose not to allow elbows on the ground is beyond me. Are they so afraid of blood? It is after all an american audience that they are catering for and the american public does not seem so squeamish when it comes to a little red leakage?

But on the other hand, may that very rule have influenced Fedor and M-1 Global`s decision to join Strikeforce instead of UFC? I know it`s kinda far fetched (and that it was most likely based on possible co-promotion on M-1`s part), but please hear me out...

Star-divide

When it comes to weaknesses, Fedor has few. I`ve heard it been said that he has a "mediocre chin". Really?? Based on what?? He`s never been KO`d and he`s never even been knocked down (as far as I know). Getting wobbly efter being hit behind the ear by Fujita is, at least in my book, not enough to call his chin "mediocre".

Weaknesses that he does seem to have however is an average takedown-defense, a propensity to get cut (and bleed) and a tendency to break his hands.

Fedors average TD-defense is more than compensated by an excellent ground game, including submissions and switches and it`s hard to do something about brittle bones in your hands. Cut`s on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. Most cuts come from glancing blows, nails, or... elbows! To me, it would seem as a wise strategy to avoid those if you have brittle bones and a propensity to bleed. Especially if your lone loss was due to a cut...

And those very elbows may actually affect another weak-spot of the last emperor; his takedown defense. In an organisation where elbows are not allowed, his opponents options are limited to 1) Strikes or 2) Advance position, both of those actually playing into the Russians strengths. If you are to strike, you need to posture up. And posturing up and striking against Fedor Emilianenko? Well, it  seems to be a very good way to get one of your arms stuck in something nasty, which in turn will lead to a submission or a loss of position. If you instead choose to advance your position... Well. That`s once again a good way to either find yourself submitted, on your back, or at the very least, back to standing.

By instead being able to keep both your arms on Fedor, staying in a prone position, and using short elbows, not only will you expose him to a possible fight-ending cut, but you will also in all likelyhood have eliminated a good part of Emilianenko`s excellent submission-game. (See: GSP vs Penn, or any fight with Clay Guida or Sean Sherk for reference)

Finally. While you may believe that Fedor would find a way to submit his opponents anyway, and that may very well be so, consider this: Fedor Emilianenko: Submissions 16 (6 Armbar, 4 RNC, 3 Kimura, 2 Guillotine, 1 Strikes... 0 Triangle`s)

And as far as I know, triangle-choke is not the way most people see Fedor beating a bear...

Poll
Who would benefit from allowing elbows on the ground?:
Fedor Emilianenko
16 votes
Brock Lesnar
45 votes
The Bear
42 votes

103 votes | Poll has closed

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

0 recs  |  Comment 31 comments

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Why on Earth would you want to see a fight prematurely ended because an elbow on the ground cut a guys head? All that does is make the fight sloppy. I would rather see the UFC get rid of elbows on the ground. In my opinion, it would keep the fight going, and also allow the bottom fighter to work technique and get out, sweep, get up if they knew they didn’t have to defend against the elbows that won’t usually hurt them beyond cutting and making a mess.

by BJJDenver on Nov 10, 2009 10:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you're going to be in the minority.....

Elbows are part of fighting. Hell there are lots of people here who want to have knees to downed opponents heads and soccer kicks.

If you want to see people’s techniques shine, then how about get rid of strikes while on the ground?

Fights are not stopped due to cuts that often, everyone should allow elbows.

by soadtrails on Nov 10, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Standing elbows fine, knees on teh ground Ok. no soccer stomps.

by BJJDenver on Nov 10, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

add elbows on the ground and that’s the perfect rule set if you ask me.

"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy

by Benicio on Nov 11, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And I’m sure youre right about being in the minority, but I’m not going to change my view simply because many disagree with me. I would just prefer to see 2 guys performing to the best of their abilities, and not someone like Kenny Florian trying to cut someone open so the ref stops the fight. Not saying this is the only or even biggest problem in the world, just my opinion.

by BJJDenver on Nov 10, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fights don’t seem to get stopped all that often from cuts anymore even though it seems like there’s been a bloodbath by the main card on nearly every UFC show.

by bigweeze on Nov 10, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn’t barring elbows on the ground prevent some fighters from performing to the best of their abilities as well?

by Tedd Welch on Nov 10, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You could say that. my opinion is that it is sort of a cheap tactic to intentionally try and draw blood to get the fight ended prematurely.

 I know it is just my opinion and you can translate it in several ways, but that is the intention of my argument.

by BJJDenver on Nov 10, 2009 6:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How many fights are ended because of cuts again?

I’d rather see a fighter on the top have the full range of strikes on the ground. If you don’t want to get cut, don’t let the guy elbow you in the face.

by Phildo on Nov 10, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not just the fights ended argument. It is the addition of blood as a lubricant. i don’t mind the sight of blood, it just makes for a sloppy fight.

by BJJDenver on Nov 10, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, how dare people be filled with liquid!

by Michaelthebox on Nov 10, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That doesn't even include short elbows either

I still remember on TUF 6, Matt Serra constantly yelling, “Short Elbows!” There is a tactical use for elbows, and especially for short elbows in that it is used to loosen the guard of the opponent on the bottom. Elbows to me, especially short elbows, can be a strategic tool used to open the guard and help pass guard, and it is not just there to cut open opponents to win fights.

by chrisbboy82 on Nov 10, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This doesn’t come across as that far removed from a striking enthusiast calling for fighters to be stood up if the fight hits the ground…

'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko

by Well Read Idiot on Nov 10, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It couldn’t be further from teh truth. I am all for strikes on the ground, just not elbows, which serve only to cut and end the fight early. if it was knocking them silly and ending teh fight, fine, but that is rarely the case. For instance, i was sorely disappointed in Shields lack of striking on the ground.

by BJJDenver on Nov 10, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He couldn’t strike because he couldn’t use elbows. They don’t cut people as often as people think they do. They also don’t knock people out, but they are strikes that hurt, which can open up opportunities for more strikes or more positional advancement.

by Phildo on Nov 10, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly what i mean. Elbows don`t usually end fights, but you better try and defend yourself against them… You can`t just “chill” while someone`s elbowing you.

"Marcus Davis is a plastic paddy"-Dan Hardy

by BlueberryMuffin on Nov 10, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ding ding ding

They were a huge part of how GSP/Penn 2 played out, for one example.

by Tedd Welch on Nov 10, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If they were only used to cause cuts that end fights early then you would have a good point there but there is a lot more to it than that. When was the last major fight that got ended by cut from a elbow on the ground?

by who me on Nov 11, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think elbows on the ground give a balance between 2 grounded fighters. I think the UFC rules are fine and need no adjustments, I think either elbows or knees on the ground should be allowed on the ground but not both. You want to give both fighters enough tools to finish the fight, if a guy is on his back he either has to get out, sweep or submit the top guy or get an elbow in his face, simple.

I don’t really understand the motivation behind this rule personally. Is Strikeforce trying to ppoularise MMA by making it less graphically violent and easy to watch? If thats the case its a joke, the UFC has done more to advance MMA than Strikeforce ever could so its pretty cheap if thats their way of making MMA more popular

by StevenGiles on Nov 10, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One thing I love about elbows on the ground is that it gives a valid offensive striking weapon to someone on their back. We’ve seen a few times where fighters will be ridiculously effective throwing elbows in that position and it stops guys from laying on them.

by VegasBatman on Nov 10, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Right

I seem to remember there being a few good ones in Griffin/Shogun

by Shaun32887 on Nov 10, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Word

Sanchez/ Guida, Florian/ Lauzon, all those showed the bottom fighter (Sanchez & Florian, in this case) using elbows from the guard. IMO it keeps the guy on top honest, prevents LnP from happening; you can’t just chill in someone’s guard at 0 degrees if they’re drilling your skull w/ elbows, that’s for sure.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Nov 10, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

I would add J-Rock vs War Machine to that list too.

"Marcus Davis is a plastic paddy"-Dan Hardy

by BlueberryMuffin on Nov 10, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree, they should allow elbows

Elbows are central to a guy like Shields’ offense, the Miller fight would’ve been much more exciting if they could use elbows.

The common misconception is that elbows are cheap and just cause cuts, and that’s simply not true. I can’t remember where, but I remember reading a while back the stats of how many fights in major orgs that allow elbows (UFC, WEC, etc) and how many cuts resulted from elbows on the ground, as well as how many actual cut stoppages. The #’s were surprisingly low, and that shows that they are just another useful tool that MMA fighters should be able to use.

I’ll admit that I advocate things like elbows, stomps, and soccer kicks/ knees to the head on the ground, but I honestly think that only the 1’st 2 things (elbows & stomps) should be allowed nowadays. Looking back and thinking on it, soccer kicks and knees to the head are much more powerful shots than are safe for MMA, IMO. Kitaoka LITERALLY puked his guts out after getting kneed to the top of his head by Hirota.

But I digress- yes, I think Strikeforce should allow elbows, because the more you eliminate things like that, the more watered down your product becomes, and then if the fighters go to different orgs and end up a victim of elbows/ stomps/ knees to the head, it reflects poorly on the quality of your organization.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Nov 10, 2009 1:58 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

Elbows increases the total amount of action in a fight… And it prevents both lay and pray and “chillin”. Knees to the head on the other hand… The fighter doing the kneeing is already in a dominant position (most of the time) and should be able to do something with that position that isn`t potentially lethal.

"Marcus Davis is a plastic paddy"-Dan Hardy

by BlueberryMuffin on Nov 10, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but then you get things like Diaz against Stevenson where he was dropping to one knee in the clinch so that Stevenson could not use his knees. I tend to agree when the guy is prone, rearing back and ramming his head with a knee is too dangerous… I guess the knee-on-ground rule makes sense if you consider a guy trying to get up, but it’s pretty disappointing when someone like Diaz squats down to exploit it.

by Stanlee on Nov 10, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the “elbows are cheap and end fights due to cuts” argument needs to stop. did stevenson win via cuts against fisher @ 103? how about the bloody mess brought on by elbows in sherk v florian? we all witnessed abe’s head split wide open on TUF, yet they allowed that fight to continue.

cuts happen, but they rarely stop the fight. even more rare is an elbow strike from the ground causing a stoppage due to cuts. until we start seeing fights actually stopped due to cuts from elbows, i see no need to worry about it.

by sadface on Nov 10, 2009 1:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

viewed out of context, this shit is HILARIOUS

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Robert Downey Sr. on Nov 12, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

its part of ufc history i say bring the soccer kick in :)

by mr. gogoplata on Nov 10, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and headbutts!

WAR COLEMAN. Just kidding, head butts are bad.

by Riney on Nov 10, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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