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The Robbery of Chase Beebe and Incompetency of Virginia's Athletic Commission: Part 3

Let's talk about back control, what it means, why it's important and why it won the fight for Beebe.

It's not just that Beebe took Easton down. It's also not just that Beebe took Easton's back. One of the most crucial components to taking the back and using it effectively is maintaining control. I cannot stress this enough. Maintaining control is the crux of the issue here. While some suggest the crucial consideration of back control is landing strikes or submission attempts, the reality is that working to stay on an opponent's back is what makes everything else possible. It's a skill set unto itself and doesn't come automatically in the gym. Such a talent, like anything else in jiu-jitsu or MMA, has to be developed over time.

Finishing opportunities against high-level opposition are predicated on the ability to maintain control until openings present themselves or are created. When we further consider that Easton is a Lloyd Irvin jiu-jitsu black belt who has medaled at the Pan-Ams and Mundials, one quickly realizes the notion that Beebe was "doing nothing" from Easton's back is demonstrably false and candidly, an absurd argument. While Easton was working to both defend himself and find an escape (a situation Beebe forced him into), Beebe was constantly pressuring Easton into defensive maneuvering by not relinquishing a hugely advantageous position that essentially renders your opponent's offense nonexistent. That Beebe never finished is true, but neither essential nor important in this case. The punches, hand fighting and choke attempts from Beebe were all the icing on the maintained back control cake that he needed.

Let's look at two different fights that help illustrate my argument and point to a historical precedent of officiating and scoring.

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First, Diego Sanchez vs. John Alessio at UFC 60. The first two rounds are not relevant to the present discussion, but the third round most certainly is. Early in the round, Sanchez takes Alessio's back and proceeds to hold it for the entire round. Here's how Sherdog.com described the action:

Sanchez, perhaps feeling urgency after possibly losing the first two rounds, is starting to throw his hands more. After catching a fying knee try from his opponent, Diego finds himself on Alessio's back after a brief scramble. Holding on to the standing Canadian's back for most of the round, this extremely boring fight comes to an end. Diego was able to land some punches from Alessio's back, but was never able to lock in a submission.

Sherdog score: 10-9 Sanchez

You'll notice the score: a round for Sanchez.

But why? He landed virtually no strikes, never threatened with a submission and hadn't hurt Alessio earlier in the round. Why was he awarded the points by the judges? Answer: overwhelming position control. Sanchez's taking of the back and maintaining it forced Alessio into a position where his only option was to defend. His offense was completely muted and while Sanchez didn't land what is conventionally considered to be scoring offense in strikes or submission attempts, the taking and holding of the back is, itself, offensive attacking. Fortunately, referee Steve Mazzaggatti recognized this and despite what some suggest was Sanchez's lack of action, the holding of Alessio's back was the action and that's more than enough to take the round.

It is instructive in this instance that the referee never separated the two. Unlike the clinch or various permutations of the guard where referees of all varieties often separate fighters, back mount is a highly unequal position. In fact, it is such a lopsided position that, by its very nature, is offensive both in the act of taking and maintaining. Not only does the fighter with his back taken have virtually no offensive opportunities, but the defensive liabilities are exacerbated to almost the highest degree possible in MMA. Having your back taken is akin to being in quick sand. Struggling by force or not knowing the proper defensive escapes will fast track you to the end of the line. With your back taken it is your responsibility to find a way out and until such time, you are not only not offering any offensive response, you are being offensively controlled by (in this case) someone else.

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Let's also take a look at the first round of Randy Couture vs. Tim Sylvia from UFC 68. Admittedly, the punch heard 'round the world from Couture played a major part in the scoring of the round, but there's more to the story than meets the eye. Here's how Sherdog.com called the action:

Round 1
Couture drops Sylvia with a right hand in the opening seconds. Couture takes Sylvia's back. Sylvia is hurt. Couture has both hooks in but the champion controls Randy's wrists. Couture hits the side of Sylvia's head and goes under the arm with an uppercut. Sylvia stays calm and defends well. Couture sinks the choke under Sylvia's chin but the champion continues to defend.

Sherdog.com scores the first round 10-9 for Couture.

Once again, with Couture on Sylvia's back for more than half of the round, why didn't referee "Big" John McCarthy stand them up? Couture never really came close to choking or punching Sylvia out, so why was it allowed to continue? I ask that question because in both rounds two and four of that fight McCarthy stood Couture and Sylvia up after Couture was unable to land anything significant on top, submit or effectively pass.

Think about that for a moment. On Sylvia's back Couture never landed significant punches nor came close to choking Sylvia out. In Sylvia's guard and even half guard, Couture was twice stood up for not making effective headway. Why such radically different responses from the referee? Because back mount - unlike guard, on top or in the clinch - at all times it's properly maintained means the situation is very precarious for the opponent with his back taken.

Couture's first round with Sylvia also forces us to revisit the idea that Beebe never finished. Unlike Sanchez who could neither punch nor threaten with the submission, Couture was at least hand fighting and working for something. However, neither Couture nor Sanchez were ever able to really come close to finishing from that position. But is that what really matters? Not if you take maintaining control as seriously as you should. Let's look at the numbers.

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So, how dominant was Beebe's control of Easton's back? Pretty dominant: in rounds 1, 3, 4 and 5 Beebe maintained control for at least 2:30 in each of those rounds. In rounds 3, 4 and 5 the Chicago native did so for more than 3 minutes. While Easton was the far better striker of the two, the notion that Easton's effective striking was more dominant than Beebe's effective grappling is false. Easton did land effectively (and if you haven't seen his head movement it's a thing of beauty), particularly in the second round. Round two is incontestably Easton's. However, Easton never rocked Beebe, never knocked him down and never clearly had him hurt to where he avoided the fight or defensively retreated. By contrast, Beebe's control of Easton's back for those prolonged periods of time had Easton in the MMA grappling equivalent of backpedaling.

MMA fans and judges think of offense as individual units of action: a punch, a kick, a submission attempt or takedown. Of course, those are all efforts that score points and should. In fact, we should not overlook Easton's fantastic stand-up in this bout where he landed beautiful shots to the body and thudding leg kicks. But MMA offense is more than the sum of its parts. Beebe isn't awarded points solely for taking Easton down and subsequently putting his hooks in on Easton's back (to say nothing of the hand fighting, punching and choke attempts). He should be awarded points for maintaining such a highly advantageous position for what can only be considered dominating amounts of time. To Easton's credit, he never allowed Beebe an opportunity to finish, but he also took far too long to shake him from his hugely superior, stifling perch. The story would be different, perhaps, had Easton rocked Beebe on the feet even with all the amount of time Beebe spent on Easton's back. But while Easton's stand-up was very crisp and impressive, it never reached a level where Beebe was sufficiently hurt or even slowed. By contrast and in my judgement, for the entire duration of Beebe's stay on Easton's back, Easton was trying to not let the flood gates spill open while he searched for dry land. That is where this fight was won and lost.

UWC 7 was overall a fantastic event and I am proud to have been a part of it. If you have not seen Easton vs. Beebe yet or Runez vs. Dodson, I cannot encourage you enough to go do so. I cannot possibly tell you how much fun I had calling the action cageside. For me personally, it was a career highlight and the best MMA event I've ever been a part of. It's not even close.

I have to confess this situation has placed me in a strange position. I spoke to Mike Easton last night to tell him that I hope he understood why I have to speak out against the judges' decision even though I consider him a friend. Easton, who might genuinely be the classiest and friendliest person I have ever met through MMA, never once said he had an issue with my disagreement even if he sees the decision differently. All he said he wants to do is compete. He had nothing but kind words for the UWC or for Chase Beebe and was just looking forward to fighting again. I am humbled by Easton's professionalism as it stands in stark contrast to the arrogance and incompetence of Virginia's athletic commission.

Our responsibility is to the fighters first. For their safety, for their careers and for their efforts, we have a responsibility to talk to them candidly, oversee their efforts with proper medical supervision and either reward their victories or acknowledge their defeats. When the state regulatory agency in charge of handling these latter responsibilities cannot faithfully meet those requirements, we have an obligation to speak out.

The UWC did it's part by making the fight. The fighters did their part by training and laying it on the line. The fans did their part by showing up and supporting the UWC and it's fighters. It's time the state of Virginia do it's part by acknowledging just how badly their judges botched the scoring.

To the Virginia Professional Boxing and Wrestling Program: you have committed a grievous error and you must take action to rectify the situation. This must be done for the benefit of the UWC, for it's fans, for the integrity of the sport itself, and most importantly, for Mike Easton and Chase Beebe. You owe those men who make this universe operate nothing less.

We expect action and we expect it now.

Photos courtesy Sherdog.com.

The Robbery of Chase Beebe and Incompetency of Virginia's Athletic Commission: Part 1

The Robbery of Chase Beebe and Incompetency of Virginia's Athletic Commission: Part 2

UWC 7: Redemption coverage

4 recs  |  Comment 54 comments |

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For the third time I agree with all of your points.

It’s absurd that MMA which has in its fold many grappling arts cannot come up with a competent, consistent, and objective way to judge grappling control; Meanwhile Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournaments the country over lay out the map for how you should view positions/transitions/threatening submissions.

Pardon me if I screw up some numbers here, I’m a bit tired but:

Standard rules go like this (90% sure, don’t shoot me if I’m 1 or 2 off, I can’t remember off hand)

• Takedowns – 2 points
• Sweeps – 2 points
• Knee on the stomach – 2 points
• Technical Side Mount reversal – 2 points
• Passing the full guard – 3 points
• Mount – 4 points
• Back Mount with hooks – 4 points

Positions of control must be held for 3 seconds flat, with complete control (i.e. hooks etc).

There ya go VA judges, now take a look at that and run with it.

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 3:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

While not a one to one relationship, this is the best evidence that Beebe’s move is more then enough offense for him to get the win. Also remember that is Beebe native wrestling, ride time can play a critical role on close matches.

by szucconi on Oct 7, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Riding time is the most overlooked aspect of this.

by Luke Thomas on Oct 7, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are getting into justification of why Beebe won and why the two score cards were so egregious and to me that is where the whole argument is. Other flaws aside, judging is objective and this justification needs to be made. Thank you.

by szucconi on Oct 7, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

An Addition to my comments below--

This is exactly how MMA should not be scored—it isn’t a “point” match like a jui-jitsu match. Why are points awarded in jui-jitsu matches? Based upon the offensive potential of those positions, and the damage that would in theory be delivered. They are also closer to achieving the submission, in theory.

MMA is different. It isn’t “theory.” Further, judges aren’t going to sit there, nor should they, with all these elements, points for various items, etc.

“Who would you have rather been that round?” —Max Kellerman

That applies in large part, even to MMA. It is very simple, and the vast majority of rounds, nothing more is needed.

If you need to go further for a particular round, ring generalship/control comes in.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 7, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree, the theoretical points need to be taken into account when the position is sustained for such a long period of time. This is a position unequaled in boxing where the down man is 100% defensive. It is not as though Beebe just sat on top looking around. Easton was only trying to minimize damage and defend subs. He did this well, but that is like giving the round to a guy because he got out of a deep choke. It’s not a though Beebe was in danger either. This was not just a case of “Octagon control”, but effective grappling and having complete control of you opponent for the better part four round while never being in danger is enough to win.

by szucconi on Oct 7, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Addendum--

My comment is not on any particular match, especially the Easton match. I didn’t see that fight at all, so it isn’t in regards to that.

Just a general comment. Given the posts I have seen, and descriptions, I most likely will agree that Beebe clearly won that particular fight.

That said, MMA is not a grappling match, and shouldn’t be scored as such. If Beebe controlled the whole fight, and threatened with position the whole fight as described, while taking little in return, I’ll agree. Just haven’t seen that fight, so can’t comment on that one in particular.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 7, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t implying that there be a straight points system, I was saying that there’s a clear guide for weighing the importance of certain positions in Jiu Jitsu and that it could provide a map for commissions to inform their judges of certain aspects of grappling.

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

Its a good point. I truly think, in MMA, grappling experience is very important in terms of judging. I am not saying they have to be experts, or even good, but get on the mat and have a purple, brown or black belt tool around on them for a while. It truly is an eye-opening experience.

It gives you a whole new understanding as to what is possible, and what is really happening. I have found, without fail, those who have not had this experience, often think “nothing” is happening.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 7, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who would you rather be

is just an awful way to score a fight.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 7, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

Why is that an awful way to score a fight?

Of course you’d have your “factors” to consider and all the other stuff, but even those who are not well versed in grappling can usually answer that question above correctly.

How should it be scored? Compubox and BJJ match points?

by Rob Maysey on Oct 8, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The answer the the last question is neither and both. Its not boxing or BJJ, its MMA. Since both boxing and BJJ are elements in MMA then the scoring for both can assist in developing rubrics for scoring an MMA bout. I believe NSAC has some documentation on scoring fight that is something like this “If the majority of the round is striking then striking is weighted more heavily. If the majority of the round is grappling then grappling is weighted more heavily”

Who would you rather be? is tough when you have never had a guy on your back. Or never been punched in the face. It doesn’t allow for consistent conclusions and there for is in adequate for judging fights. You need to be able to justify your score and while the “Who would you rather be?” question usually leads to the right call, it is very over simplified.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I agree with the above. Experience, even just rolling around, would help greatly.

And of course, that wouldn’t be the only element. The “who would you rather be” element is thrown own partly in gest, as of course that can’t be the only metric. What is not in gest though, isn’t that really what the factors are designed to lead you to? The notion should be in mind, in my opinion, to ease in the “development” of the stated criteria.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 8, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can get on board with most of that. And I like your post below and above about the BJJ scoring of back mount is because it is a good position to cause damage and MMA is more application of the techniques and actual damage inflected is more of a factor. In this case though there was a great deal of control and it is not as though Beebe hooked up Easton and then waved to his family for the rest of the round. It is important to not only factor control, but damage other then strikes.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent read. Thanks for taking the time to address this situation.

by RagingBoredom on Oct 7, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Luke, if there was a god, you would be doing his work. Excellent, excellent, excellent.

by Razz on Oct 7, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m tempted to say “Geez, let it go already,” but there are some interesting points that are made here.

by cyke on Oct 7, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't worry

This is probably the last one. Thanks for reading it.

by Luke Thomas on Oct 7, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

instead of posting articles on the net

can’t someone take a page out of the news world book and just call somebody for comment? As well researched as it is, this is just editorial until a little investigation takes place.

by judonerd on Oct 7, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

so whats the conclusion is anyone looking into it ?

maybe they should overturn the decision? kinda like they did for Karo?. (even though it was because of him taking some pres. meds. but still the point is it could be done)

by 1WAYtiket on Oct 7, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll have to rewatch Diego-Allessio

But I’m not sure I agree with that example at all, especially that example. My early recollection had Diego obtaining the back, Allessio standing, threatening Diego with standing arm bars, and hitting Diego as well.

I don’t agree that getting a position, with nothing more, is sufficient to win the round. This is akin to the argument that getting the takedown (while doing nothing with it at all) is sufficient to take the round.

In BJJ, points are awarded to various positions based on the offensive potential of those positions. This allows matches to be timed and scored without need of going to submission in every match. It also correctly recognizes that were this a real fight, in those very offensive positions, damage would most likely be inflicted.

In MMA though, you have removed the theoretical component to a large extent. I would agree that if an offensive position is obtained by Fighter A, Fighter B does nothing but defend, and little else, the position would lead to winning the round. I don’t agree that the position should be treated like it is in grappling. In the BJJ tourney, the position is awarded points in large part because it is threatening, and in theory, damage would be inflicted were that to be a fight with strikes. In MMA, you have the ability to inflict that damage. If you do not, and if the other fighter is in fact not threatened, lands strikes of his own, etc.—it isn’t a foregone conclusion that the position alone is enough.

Allessio wasn’t threatened by Diego’s position, at least to my memory—and in fact, was more threatening to Diego, even in that position. Another example—slightly different—Hughes v. Charuto. Hughes got the takedowns, was in the superior position—but clearly lost that fight, in my opinion because of what occurred after, despite the position.

My comment has nothing to do with what happened in Virginia, just a general comment.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 7, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

never thought of scoring like that…

by judonerd on Oct 7, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post Rob, rec’d

by brad23 on Oct 7, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the feedback, Rob.

A couple of points:

1. I’m not sure your recollection of Alessio vs. Sanchez is correct. Two on one wrist control on the opposite side of your head is strictly a defensive tactic and nothing more. There is no armbar from the angle because there’s very little torque and you can’t control the shoulder. While Alessio shut down most of Sanchez’s attack from the back, all Alessio could muster was two on one wrist control while Sanchez threw some strikes and made Alessio carry his weight…all the while threatening from the back.

2. I’m also not arguing that getting any position and holding it is acceptable. Taking the back and mainitaing control takes far more skill and represents a greater threat to an opponent than taking someone down and laying in their guard. That’s why competent referees don’t separate fighters in the former and do in the latter. And in the case of VA, Beebe wasn’t holding on like a koala bear. He was not only punching, trying to choke and hand fighting, he was not allowing Easton to escape. That is, Easton was vigorously trying to get Beebe’s hooks off or stand or roll into him and Beebe largely shut most of that down.

3. Hughes should’ve lost the fight, but it has nothing to do with positioning. As John McCarthy has articulated numerous times, being in someone’s full guard in MMA is viewed as 50-50: the guy on bottom has more submission opportunities and the guy on top has more striking opportunities, but they generally off set each other. Hughes lost because he largely defended attacks from the bottom while Charuto used a diverse attacking guard. If the judges stupidly awarded the fight to Hughes for being on top, ok, but that’s a 50-50 position.

by Luke Thomas on Oct 7, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On Hughes/Charuto

I agree—the guard should be seen as a neutral and then judged by what occurs and that it should be seen as 50/50—but I don’t think it is at all.

Also, when you have a fighter like Charuto, who basically conceded the takedowns that themselves were not damaging (he wanted to be down), inflicted far more damage from the bottom, and threatened with submissions, I see no conceivable way he lost that fight, other than, Hughes was awarded ridiculous points for takedowns and being on top.

I also agree that it would have to be some very unusual circumstance to break that type of back control position.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 7, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then you get back to BJJ rules. If a fighter even faints at pulling guard you get 0 points for a takedown. This speaks to position and control as well as how the guard is a 50/50 position. If you impose the takedown you are awarded the points, if not then no advantage is gained or lost. You are in a much more adventurous position to strike then the man down, but with a good guard he can be equally as active. This grappling nuance is where there is much potential to error. Then take back control, there is no other position that is more dominate. You learn that on the first day on BJJ class. There are escapes from mount, but back mount pretty much depends on the guy over committing to something and making a mistake. it takes you from in guard at 50/50 to on the back with hooks at 100/0.

by szucconi on Oct 7, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not that I have anything against the UWC, after all this kefuffle. But, maybe it’s time to take down the UWC poster off of the BE main page.

by bubbafat on Oct 7, 2009 4:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i havent seen the Easton/Beebe fight so i can’t really comment, but i have to say Luke, all 3 articles regarding the decision have made excellent reading. Pretty sure im gonna head to the UWC website to see it for myself though, as it seems to be a terrible decision.

May be a stupid question, but who has the ability to overturn the decision should they see fit? Would it be down to the VAC to realise they’ve made a huge mistake or can the UWC take action themselves?

by TOON_UF on Oct 7, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Long time lurker here

I gotta say, this could be the first great piece of investigative journalism (that doesn’t involve if MMA should be sanctioned or not.)

The problem could also be if those judges are boxing judges who were converted into MMA judges with lack of knowledge of grappling. So they saw Easton being the better striker and to them only strikes counted as offense.

Not saying this is the case but it could be one of the reasons

by IRodC on Oct 7, 2009 11:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Robbery Part 4

Mike Easton won. No robbery for me. I enjoyed watching him fight and was bored watching Beebe. Beebe lost because he was boring.
Runez won, and that’s what mattered the most. That fight was incredible.
Let’s talk about Runez, he’s got skills.

by wandyman on Oct 8, 2009 3:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My sarcasm detector may be broken...?

Enjoyment = winner?

So I enjoy watching Thales Leites (In bizarro world where I am infatuated with butt-scoots)more than Anderson Silva, and Thales should therefore get that decision?

'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko

by Well Read Idiot on Oct 8, 2009 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you were bored watching Beebe dominate Easton and so through that logic Easton won?

What?

The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino

by AboveThisFire on Oct 8, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Never Leave it up to the Judges

I do not understand why people keep blaming the UWC for this. They are being hurt allot form this call. They have no control over the who the judges are or how they vote. The UWC has no idea who the judges will be for the fight until they show up about an hour or so before the fights start. Marcello was very upset right after this fight because of … Read Morewhat happen and for people to blindly blame the UWC is wrong. The ones at blame are the judges for their lack of knowledge of the MMA game and Chase should have not allowed it to go to a decision. He should have, if he could have, finished the fight. He did not and therefore he is leaving it up to home town judges. And I have repeated this mantra many many times “NEVER LEAVE IT UP TO THE JUDGES”. And I speak from experience when it comes to judging, I am a certified IKF Judge and when I do a fight I make sure that the ref tells the fighters during the fighter meeting the above mantra. Judges see different things from different angles. I was there that night running one of the Hand held cameras cage side. And after the fight I thought Chase won it very easily, well I have now reviewed the footage and I think it could have gone either way now after watching the video closer. Easton controlled Chase in the standup and did allot more damage to Chase than Chase did to Easton on the ground. Yes Chase had his back but he never advanced that position much. Yes he did continue to hit Easton while he was on his back but most of those shots were blocked by Easton and in my book a blocked shot is not a connected shot. Easton did escape several times. And he then proceeded to hit Chase with harder and more shots than Chase did connect with him, Easton threw allot of leg kicks which landed and scored. So in conclusion, this in my opinion ONLY, this is not necessarily the open and shut case that Luke is stating. But I do believe Luke is correct when he states that judges need to be better educated in the art of MMA. They need to understand the ins and outs of both the standup and ground game and how they work. I believe there needs to be a better system for scoring a MMA fight than now exists. THe MMA game is always changing, just awile ago it was all about the ground control, then it went to a striking game, then again back to a ground game and now it is about takedowns and KOs. So the judges , Refs and anyone else involeved to keep up on the rules and the ever shifting game of MMA. And BTW I also co own a martial arts school and have been involved with MMA and grappling since it first appeared on the scene. My school was the first school in Jacksonville to have a Jiu-Jitsu program affiliated with Royce Gracie. Again this is only one person’s opinionof this fight. So again I repeat “A FIGHTER SHOULD NEVER EVER LEAVE IT UP TO THE JUDGES”

by karatevideoguy on Oct 8, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

While I disagree with the assessment of the fight, I agree with mantra the a fighter should never leave it in the hands of the judges. However, judges also have a duty to judge as fairly as possible given the criteria they are provided. The issue is that by the criteria I am aware of, Beebe took the fight.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, your sn is a dead giveaway Mr. Faulkner.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

part 5

I agree with Rob and Wandyman. I was about 15 feet back from the cage on the side of the Irvin corner and got the best view of the action. Throughout any mat time Easton was calmly talking to Lloyd the entire time as easily as if he was reading the paper. Why? Because Beebe was essentially doing nothing, just enough to prevent the stand up. The Alessio/Sanchez round mentioned above went to Diego because of control in addition to the fact that neither opponent did much in the way of strikes, thus advantage Sanchez. As you’ve admitted, Easton clearly won the striking battle
The Couture/Sylvia comparison is not even in the same ball park. Tim never landed a strike, while on the ground Randy landed some shots and actually got an arm under Tim’s chin several times, unlike the feeble and few attempts by Beebe. Then you add to the mix the fact that Randy dropped Tim with one punch, clearly placing him in immediate trouble. The fact that Randy was fairly busy on the ground, unlike Beebe, without the knockdown would have won it 10-9, the knockdown made it borderline 10-8, but because that was the only really big strike, I could see 10-9. Beebe COULD have won every round if he was more active from Easton’s back.

by Warhog on Oct 8, 2009 2:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, “calmly talking to Lloyd” is not a criteria for winning. Effective grappling is. And when have you ever seen a fight stand up from back control? It should almost never happen. If anyone was stalling in that position, it was Easton and thats because he could do little else.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

stalling

Easton did not seem to try and escape very much and Beebe did continue to try to strike and a few times he even tried to get both hooks in and he also tried to flatten him out too, but he did not listen to his corner telling him to keep striking no matter what. If had he might have gotten more strikes to connect. And if Easton had listened to Lloyd Irvin he sould have been able to escape anytime he wanted to, but he looked confused as to what his corner was telling him to do, hell in between one round when Lloyd told to throw a 6 he said to Lloyd what is a six! He was way off of his game that night and it showed for all to see.

by karatevideoguy on Oct 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I didn’t hear all that, but that is a damn shame. I love Easton and was routing for him. And if I were Beebe I would have given up on the choke and struck, but if and buts candy and nuts. Maybe he just wanted to get the sub? I don’t think he wore Easton down enough to get the choke he was working and he seemed to be totally focused on just keeping the hooks in and flattening him out. As far as not listening to his coaches, I have heard that he is stubborn and uncoachable so that doesn’t surprise me.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beebe

I really think he did not want to get hurt too bad because of Dream. I saw him after the fight and his hand was badly swollen and he had ice on it, and he was limping some so I think he came out of it in pretty good shape. And he had to have known that he had to beat Mike not just survived to win the fight. If I had been in his corner I would have told him to go balls out in the last round and do whatever he to do to KO or submit easton.

At least that way it is in his hands and not the judges!

by karatevideoguy on Oct 8, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, your IP address say Olney, Maryland so that’s one red flag.

But let’s address your points.

“I was about 15 feet back from the cage on the side of the Irvin corner and got the best view of the action.”

I was 3 feet from the cage, so actually I got the best view of the action.

“Because Beebe was essentially doing nothing, just enough to prevent the stand up.”

You mean doing nothing except maintaining control on a BJJ blackbelt for more than half the rounds as Easton had to defend his neck, face and ears? And you mean while Easton was trying to get the hooks removed that Beebe was constantly trying to force in? You mean that kind of nothing? What on earth are you talking about? The notion that Beebe did nothing is demonstrably false and honestly absurd. I’m not even going to address it anymore. Please stop with the nonsense.

“The Alessio/Sanchez round mentioned above went to Diego because of control in addition to the fact that neither opponent did much in the way of strikes, thus advantage Sanchez. As you’ve admitted, Easton clearly won the striking battle”

Well, Easton was the better striker, sure. Particularly in round two. But he landed nothing in round 3, and was controlled for nearly four minutes a piece in rounds four and five. Even if we spot Easton round 1 (which a competent judge wouldn’t do), Easton didn’t land anything significant enough in rounds 3, 4 or 5 to justify nullifying Beebe’s dominant grappling. Period. You can spot Easton the first two rounds and he still loses the fight. The math for Easton in rounds 3, 4 and 5 simply is not there and trying to manufacture it by pretending Beebe’s complete grappling domination isn’t going to make that go away.

“The Couture/Sylvia comparison is not even in the same ball park. Tim never landed a strike, while on the ground Randy landed some shots and actually got an arm under Tim’s chin several times, unlike the feeble and few attempts by Beebe.”

It’s absolutely in the same ball park. I agree that Couture’s punch makes the comparison to Beebe/Easton less than identical, but that isn’t the point. The point I’m making about that round is why didn’t McCarthy stand Couture and Sylvia up even though he never really came close to stopping Tim? And while Couture had some ok attempts at a choke, Tim easily got out of all of them. If Beebe was doing nothing, he either would’ve been stopped or warned. BEEBE WASN’T EVEN WARNED BY REFEREE JOHN MCCARTHY. What is so hard to understand about that? McCarthy explained to both Beebe and Easton prior to the fights when and where he’d stand them up and under what conditions. Beebe NEVER received a single warning for stalling. Not one.

Case closed.

by Luke Thomas on Oct 8, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One correction: your IP address does not say Olney, Maryland. My error. Apologies.

by Luke Thomas on Oct 8, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you were seated at a ringside table, as was I, you’re more correct on the distance though; ALL of the takedowns were on my side of the cage, giving me a much better view of the ground action; one of the judges was at my table;
The crowd was split if you DON’T include Easton’s team, and both with very enthusiastic opinions
Couture was much more active the entire round
Big John is a jiu jitsu dude, it’s natural he’d give more credence to that aspect….he’s a ref,not a judge but cool as hell nonetheless,
However, as mentioned above, several judges who have jiu backgrounds gave the fight to Easton
It’s unfortunate that as a professional writer you’ve got to attack opposing opinions as insane, absurd, nonsense, etc. This plus the 3 part letter implies a personal connection to Beebe, at least as opposed to Easton,
Grew up in DC, live in VA, not sure about this Olney thing, never been there but apparently you think it’s not that great…unless you’re from L.A or NYC, you cannot begin to bag on my hometown, son…Hell, they can’t either
Background in Boxing and Tae Kwon Do, currently a consultant to the Board, not an actual member, as a Ringside Physician; Been following Tae Kwon Do and Boxing for over over 30 years, MMA prior to the UFC and have been attending martial arts tournaments for over 30 years; Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion; I’m interested what in your personal or professional background gives you the expertise to belittle mine.

by Warhog on Oct 8, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So wait: your points are total shit and the best you can come up with is that I have a connection to Beebe?

Mike was one of my first instructors at TLI and a friend. I don’t know Beebe and have talked to him once on the phone when I did a phone interview for MMA Nation. If I have a connection to anyone, it’s Easton and TLI, which makes this situation all the more difficult for me. The good news is I have been honest with Mike since the moment the fight was over and I was in the cage. He asked me who I thought won and I told him Beebe. There is footage of this on uwcmma.com. I also spoke to him Tuesday and reiterated the same idea. He knows my respect for him and what he’s done for has nothing to do with how I objectively score this fight. And because I respect Mike, I can’t lie to him and I haven’t. If you respect him, you should do the same.

The fact is you’re desperately grasping for an answer that simply isn’t there. The math is not there for Easton. Period. Whatever background you have has clearly failed you as you seem deeply unable to grasp the fundamentals of scoring in MMA. Don’t blame me for your shortcomings.

by Luke Thomas on Oct 8, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow. Thanks for illustrating one of my points. See you at the rematch.

by Warhog on Oct 9, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep it's me

I was as close to the action as the refs or judges.

I just am really pissed that the judges they had doing this fight just, in my opinion did not have the experience or knowledge to be judging a title bout. Only the most experienced judges and refs should have that honor. But in my opinion it goes back to the commissions who really do not like MMA. Remember these guys are “Boxing” commissioners and look down their noses at MMA and only swallow it because they need the money to keep their jobs. No boxing matches means no fees no fees means these guys have to get a real job. Judges need to be better trained and should earn the right. just like in most other sports, to work the big fights or shows.
 I have watched the video back and really feel this fight could have gone to either fighter but I do believe Chase worked harder to get the win and did allot of things right and Easton really fought a very bad fight. He looked lazy and not willing to try and escape from the back control that Chase had. He had several good chances to escape but did act upon them and that in my opinion why I think Chase should have won that fight. Yes I understand that back control is a very dominant position but once you have it you have to advanced it and land, make connect with something other than the palm or back of the hand of your opponent. Easton had a good defense but he did not try to escape and better his position either. But he did cause more damage and connect more than Chase did.

by karatevideoguy on Oct 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think it was the third when Chase was really high and I was screaming “Head Hunt, Head Hunt”, so yeah, I agree with you about that. As far as the judges, I was told by a high up in Maryland that was also at the fight that the two judges that scored the fight for Easton had MMA backgrounds and were not strictly boxing judges. He said both had trained people in MMA. I didn’t inquire further into there qualifications, but three of four decisions being split is strange and could be an indicator of an issue. I say could because sometimes a split is perfectly reasonable and three could certainly happen in one night, but it should be looked into and the judges made to justify the calls.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

judges

One of those judges from what I have heard really only has a white belt with no stripes in jiu-jitsu and really should not have been judging the fight., he was one of the ones who went with easton. The commission should have had their best judges there for a title bout.

And yes there were way to many splits that night. If I had been the lead judge I would talked with the other judges to see what was up. There should never be too many splits that shows inconsistency in the judging.

by karatevideoguy on Oct 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I trained BJJ for less then a year and went to a school without stripes and I want to become a judge. I had to stop training because of work and injuries getting in the way, but MD has the good sense to start not only guys like me out doing amateur events, but also starting experienced boxing judges out at the bottom recognizing that MMA is much different. Now I have a wrestling background also and a passion for the sport and I keep up with moves and techniques even if I lack skill and lets face it, talent.

by szucconi on Oct 8, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

starting from the bottom

That is the exact right way to do it. Start with amateur fights, do BJJ tournaments, do anything you can to get experience that is the right way. That is what I did and still do to this day I try to judge or ref all kinds of events, the more rounded my experience is the better official I can become.
Whether you have a white or blackbelt does not always make a good judge or ref, it is experience at that position which makes you competent. Yes actual fighting experience is good very good in fact but not the end all. And that is what it seems like with from what I have read and seen coming from the VA commission.

by karatevideoguy on Oct 8, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In total agreement. Either side could have had a clear victory had they done more. Considering it could have gone either way, there’s no merit for having Beebe take the championship, although the murky outcome definitely merits an immediate rematch.

by Warhog on Oct 9, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sorry, above was in response to karate guys earlier yep it’s me post, not sure why it got placed at the end. Well, it’s been fun, see y’all at the rematch, coming soon I’m sure.

by Warhog on Oct 9, 2009 8:32 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So, what's the final word on this situation?

will the title be held up?
will there be a rematch?

"Let's kick some names and take some a$$"

by StayGoldLikeFlair on Oct 11, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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