Shinya Aoki Claims DREAM Has Better Lightweights Than the UFC
by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
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From Dave Meltzer:
Aoki had said before the event that Dream, and not UFC, had the best lightweight competitors. After winning the title, he made that claim again.
"It’s not UFC, it’s Dream," he said.
But Aoki, whose stand-up is weak and who doesn’t face fighters who are stronger wrestlers and do more extensive weight-cutting, doesn’t appear to have the all-around game at the level of the top UFC lightweights, even with his rep as the most exciting submission fighter in the game.
Everyone knows I'm a huge Aoki fan, but I have to agree with Meltzer here. According to the USAT/SBN Consensus MMA Rankings the DREAM lightweight division has four of the top ten lightweights but only five of the top twenty. DREAM's ally Strikeforce has two top twenty lightweights. Their Japanese rival World Victory Road has another four.
The UFC has six of the top ten and sixteen of the top twenty-five.
Let's face facts, because there has been less cross-pollination in the lightweight division than in any other class, we have very little objective evidence of how they actually stack up together.
You have to go all the way back to B.J. Penn's 2003 deconstruction of Takanori Gomi for the last time a major UFC contender fought a top Japanese star. And 2003 is two MMA lifetimes ago.
But I have little doubt that B.J. Penn would hurt Shinya Aoki real real bad. Even in DREAM, even with the extremely biased refereeing that Aoki takes advantage of in every fight. B.J. is the far more decorated grappler, can actually strike AND take a punch, is the better wrestler and would walk into the ring with a significant weight advantage.
On New Year's Eve we'll see how Aoki does against #6 Tatsuya Kawajiri, one of the DREAM fighters who most resembles the UFC's brand of powerful boxer/wrestlers. In the mean time, we'll continue to breathlessly speculate and Aoki will continue to talk smack.
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I don’t know who has the better fighters, thats really hard to quantify, but I do know that Dream seems to have more interesting and dynamic fights at LW.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 7, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ah the UFC has had its share of great LW tilts
Diaz/Guida, Griffin/Edgar, Fisher/Stout, Griffin/Guida were all classics right up there with DREAM’s best.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sanchez/Guida, Diaz/Stevenson more recently
Actually the UFC’s LW division has been the most consistently enthralling to me over the past year or so.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny…I actually think that the division is starting to get stale.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How so?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stagnation. Shortage of finishes. A hierarchy of high-level gatekeepers and exciting curtain-jerkers, but few prospects. Don’t get me wrong, lightweight fights are still pretty entertaining, but much of the luster is gone, and now it’s just about seeing a few rematches, and working through permutations of matchups, like an eight-man round robin.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But my point was that the fights are still entertaining, which is all we can really ask for with BJ at the top and no one in the forseeable future coming close to his abilities. Can Diego beat him? Yeah, everyone can lose, but if BJ’s head is in the right place he will beat everyone for years to come, and we’ll just have to enjoy the contender/gatekeeper fights, which are still very entertaining.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But exciting fights just mean that the fighters are well-matched, not that they are World Class. Also, the respective rules in DREAM and UFC will lend themselves to different styles of fights, some which will be preferred by one type of fan, and others that will be preferred by another. It’s a bit like Apples and Pears.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think a lack of wrestling skill results in a lot more frequent transitions, takedowns, sweeps, etc… which adds some excitement, but also leaves you wondering if these guys can really play the same game in the UFC, and I don’t think they can.
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by GregS123 on Oct 7, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I beg to differ
No fight had more transitions, sweeps or reversals than Griffin/Edgar. Its got more to do with the opponents being fairly equally matched as wrestlers and grapplers than anything else. When one fighter has a big edge you get ugly fights like Edgar/Fisher or most Gray Maynard fights.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t imagine that Aoki would do very well if he had a handful of UFC lightweight fights. Nate laid it out perfectly.
Not that it would be in his best interests in terms of getting US exposure, but do you think Aoki could make 145?
www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology
by GregS123 on Oct 7, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Really? He’s fought as high as 170 and is already a 6-foot 155er.
Now Joachim Hansen, there’s a guy who could probably make 145.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
There is a huge problem with the argument because there is very little crossover, or even crossover training with North American athletes. There aren’t many guys in North America that can tell you exactly how Aoki runs, but the most impressive feats by Aoki aren’t in his grappling, but the ways in which he sets up his grappling on the floor.
Hansen is known as deceptively super powerful. I’ve read a lot of interviews from sparring partners, etc… that suggest Hansen is ridiculously strong for a lightweight, yet… Aoki worked his judo and easily took down Hansen numerous times. Does this have to do with power? Not completely, but I find it strange that people discount Aoki’s skill-set because he looks weak.
Furthermore, his grappling for MMA is insanely tough to counter for anybody. BJ Penn would probably have a better than average chance at nullifying the attempts, but I fear for UFC wrestlers because Aoki’s submission game is unique in almost every way. He can bend in ways that a guy like Gray Maynard would be wondering what to do. He was able to hold Hansen’s arm, even though the general perception is that Aoki is a weakling. I found that to be incredible, and it is a deception of how powerful he actually is.
The real threat, however, is Aoki’s ability to study film and work unique submission moves that most fans or fighters won’t see coming. Some of the past techiques such as the helicopter armbar attempts and shit like that…. I don’t see any lightweight except maybe Penn actually seeing as a threat. Most of the wrestlers in the division would have a hard time managing Aoki’s ability to slip to the back, something he’s done against tough wrestlers in the past.
Kawajiri fight is the most important fight in determining how Aoki will do.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 7, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki also has a judo background which probably helps him quite a bit.
by MMAEruption on Oct 7, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all the more reason why it would be great to see him actually get signed over so we could see it happen for real!
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by GregS123 on Oct 7, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if Kawajiri trounces him with power wrestling… there isn’t much point.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 7, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see guys like Maynard and Sherk just powering out of submission attempts (early on) a la Sakurai.
Hell, I see Griffin with his badonkadonk giving Aoki lots of trouble.
Franky Edgar too. He has lots of core power (see youtube), great wrestling and submission defense, great transitions improved striking.
Can Aoki beat Nate Diaz? That’s a matchup I wanna see.
by MickDawg on Oct 7, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki’s shitty chin would be his primary concern, among others for UFC’s LW division.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 7, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not convinced that he has a shitty chin. If he did, JZ would have put him out cold in their second match.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said Leland!! It amazes me some of the things I hear about Aoki. Hansen was asked after the fight if he noticed anything different about Aoki this time around and he said he was surprised at just how strong Aoki was. People tend to ignore claims like that.
Then others question Aokis chin yet there have been many times against JZ, Lo-A-Njoe and Hansen where Aoki has been tagged heavily multiple times and looked unphased.
Others like to question his wrestling and ability to get the fight to the ground against the wrestlers in the UFC. That one baffles me. In any of his fights, has he looked like he has struggled? He is quite happy to pull guard or whatever. He doesnt only have the traditional single/double leg takedowns at his disposal.
Some, like Melzer, like to point out that his stand up is weak. Nobody disputes that but it doesnt matter much. When was the last time aoki looked in trouble on his feet. His opponents are always worried about the takedown and have very little time to actually achieve anything meaningful standing.
LnP might work, but submissions > LnP!
by GeeDub on Oct 8, 2009 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love guys who talk shit and will throw down. I despise guys who will talk shit but won’t throw down. Hence, I want to see BJ smash Aoki on the feet for two rounds, then RNC his ass in the 3rd, just because he can.
IMO the “best” fighter will accept any challenge, because he should expect to win everytime.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t it go both ways, though? BJ Penn just got challenged by Shinya Aoki, but he won’t accept it because he couldn’t even if he wanted to. Fighters on both sides of the Atlantic are hamstrung by organizational obligations.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but BJ Penn actually went rogue and fought non-UFC people
He deserves a ton of credit for actually breaking out of his promotion and taking names in other orgs after he beat Hughes IMO, in terms of how “real” of a fighter he is.
I mean, a lot of what he ended up in were freakshow matches, but still— call Penn a lot of things but don’t say he doesn’t want to fight somebody. Love him or hate him, he’d probably fight Brock (and expect to win) if Dana let him.
by LBo on Oct 7, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said Penn didn’t want to fight whoever. I’m saying that no matter who he wants to fight, he’s got an exclusive contract. Aoki may or may not have an exclusive contract, but he almost certainly has a contract that would prevent him from signing with the UFC. So it doesn’t make a lot of sense to lay the blame on one person or another.
Though if I were more cynical, I could say that when Penn went to Japan, he mysteriously avoided rematching Gomi in his prime, or fighting any other top Japan-based LW, but rather opted to fight Duane Ludwig and then a bunch of guys well outside his natural weight class that basically offered no threat to his reputation.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if you were being cynical, that’s an absolute stretch.
Penn murdered Gomi…if anything, it would make 1000% more sense that Gomi ducked Penn.
And the reason he fought in higher weight classes, is because his natural weight class did not pose a threat.
He left the UFC as the Welterweight champion. To fight in lower weight classes at that point would not enhance his own reputation to become the best fighter ever.
by MickDawg on Oct 7, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would say all that is excessively charitable. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was all about money and control.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 8, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the pants are perhaps too tight and clouding his judgement on how he’d do against UFC competition.
by pr0cs on Oct 7, 2009 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
B.J. would have Aoki TKO’d pretty fast, or whenever B.J. felt like putting the hurt on him. It’s not that Aoki couldn’t potentially beat some of the guys in the UFC LW division, but all of Aoki’s strengths match up terribly against B.J. who is just significantly better in every area other than snappy dressing.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But how much does that prove? BJ is the prohibitive favorite over any lightweight fighter, UFC or otherwise, but that doesn’t mean that the UFC Lightweight DIVISION is stronger than any other promotion, just because BJ Penn is there. That’s like saying Strikeforce has the best Heavyweight division because Brock Lesnar probably can’t beat Fedor.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is exactly what I was thinking
but even along those lines, with the UFC having six of the USA TODAY / SB Nation Consensus MMA Ranking fighter, including the champion, it seems the numbers favor the UFC in this discussion. Of all the divisions though, this is one of the few where an argument can even be made without be laughed out of the ring.
by rzor on Oct 7, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you can make a pretty strong case
that several of the DREAM fighters are overrated.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps, but you can also make the case about the UFC’s. How many Top 10 ranked fighters did Kenny Florian beat to BECOME a Top 10 fighter? How many did Sean Sherk? And from there, it’s a lot of bootstrapping. Beating a Top 10 guy creates a Top 10 guy, and so on and so forth. On a certain level, unless a fighter is undefeated or on a winning streak, it’s pretty easy to argue that a guy’s overrated.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
the bootstrapping was almost all on the DREAM side since almost none of the UFC guys were ranked when the division was restarted.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t dispute that, but if like you said, there’s limited cross-pollination, it’s just a matter of people hypothesizing on who’d beat whom rather than comparing scalps. Obviously, the legacy of a lightweight division means that vets should have more high-level scalps than newbies, but what I have seen recently is the perception that winning a few fights in the UFC has meant more than winning a few fights elsewhere, unless you’re beating ranked guys. This means that all of the “at large bids,” to use an NCAA metaphor, will come from UFC guys, and all of the non UFC guys that are ranked have multiple Top 10 wins (although probably a couple Top 10 losses) on their resumes.
Until we get a high-profile guy to jump ship one way or the other (like BJ Penn signing with M-1), and get Top 10 UFC guys against Top 10 DREAM guys, it’ll be based upon speculation rather than accumulation of wins.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference is that the UFC guys have shown that they can beat other people. Florian, Sherk, Maynard and Edgar got their rankings by beating people like Guida, Tyson Griffin, Stevenson, Fisher, Pelligrino, and Diaz.
The Dream side over the last few years has been basically Alvarez, Aoki, Hansen, and JZ Calvancante (at the beginning) fighting each other over and over to mixed results and very strange outcomes and decisions by the officials.
by Phildo on Oct 7, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re argument, essentially, is that there are MORE people fighting each other over and over to mixed results and very strange outcomes and decisions by the officials.
Clay Guida – Close decisions all throughout his tenure in the UFC (except the loss to Huerta), the same as when in Strikeforce.
Tyson Griffin – Like Clay Guida, except he gets a little more love from the judges. Top wins are Urijah Faber, a Featherweight, and Hermes Franca, who may or may not still be relevant at the weight class.
Frankie Edgar – Like Tyson Griffin, except he BEAT Sean Sherk instead of losing to him. Other than that, he has to deal with people constantly clamoring for him to drop to 145.
Gray Maynard – He might be for real, but he’s still pretty green.
Joe Stevenson – I liked what he did to Diaz, but he was kinda outclassed by BJ Penn and Kenny Florian.
Nate Diaz is a fine prospect, but his tally of big wins is still a little sparse.
Spencer Fisher, Sam Stout and Kurt Pellegrino are fine gatekeepers.
Again, I’m not saying these guys aren’t good, just that they each made their reputations by beating each other, such that the mechanism for their rating isn’t much different from what happened in DREAM. Now you can say that the UFC matchmaking style, rather than the tournament style, is more conducive to developing high level fighters, but that’s a hypothesis that hasn’t been proven up yet.
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Decisions are part of the sport, and that’s fine, but the shenanigans that seem to take place every time Aoki fights, plus Alvarez being held out of the GP finals always make things seem a little too tilted into aoki’s favor.
They’re good, but it’s silly to act like they’ve gotten their rankings on pure merit and say the UFC guys didn’t. They’re all ranked by fighting each other over again, and in matches with random time outs and terrible No Contest decisions make things seem a little weird.
Everyone would benefit from them fighting each other, but aoki has put himself at the top of the Dream crew, and the way that it has happened make me fine with believing that the UFC guys are better.
by Phildo on Oct 7, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
keep in mind though that the DREAM guys
are beneficiaries of the strong PRIDE lw division from 2004-2007. Gomi emerged as the winner of a very tough tournament field that some guys who had been at the top of the UFC lw class — Jens Pulver, Yves Edwards — plus the top Japanese WW ever — Sakurai.
That established the PRIDE lw’s as the top in the world — although B.J. Penn was always out there but not active in the division.
So the DREAM guys are the direct heirs of that — Gomi’s lousy run over the past couple of years helped make DREAM seem more legit than WVR. The parity in WVR has hurt them too.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup...agreed.
DREAM has a lot of holdovers from Pride staying in Japan and keeping their ranking.
Side note:
I still don’t see how Hansen is in the top 10, despite not beating a ranked opponent and losing to every ranked opponent in the last 4 years.
(I discount the tournament win over Aoki). Something like 6-6 last 12.
by MickDawg on Oct 7, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(I discount the tournament win over Aoki)
Most people don’t, so there’s your explanation.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
mma-elo.com has hansen at #21 even taking the Aoki win into consideration. Based on results I think its fair that he is ranked that low.
According to that same site, the UFC has only 4 top 10 ranked LWs….BJ, Florian, Griffin and Maynard.
by GeeDub on Oct 8, 2009 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Word.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Oct 7, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time seeing
Kawajiri, Calvancante or Alvarez really thriving in the UFC LW division. Maynard, Edgar and Griffin have similar skill sets but are bigger (except Edgar) and much stronger wrestlers.
Florian’s muay thai would give him a leg up (get it, he he).
Hansen would fare no better than Aurelio did.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, put Kawajiri up against Maynard… who’s going to win that wrestling battle?
Most of the UFCs wrestlers are going to be able to stifle some of the elaborate submission games that a lot of guys play over there too.
I think the top guys in other promotions have good chances at being good in the UFC especially because iron sharpens iron, but I just think at the higher levels of that division they’d get controlled or knocked out.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think kawa, calvan, and alvarez would do fine
they are not on bj penns level, but they could string a few wins together and make it interesting (let’s not annoint maynard quite yet).
however, aoki would not get 3 minutes of inactivity on the ground to hunt for an opening. Nor should he. I don’t think shinyas skill set translates at all.
by pmac06340 on Oct 7, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You start showing more love to Eddie or else Nate!
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 7, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the proverbial proof is in the pudding though on the UFC having a stronger lightweight division, just look at the fighter rankings and think of how they’d match up, the UFCs highs are higher and their lows are higher. This doesn’t discount some of Dream/Sengoku/etc’s LW fighters and some of them are indeed better than some of their UFC counterparts, it just seems that most of the matchups would favor the UFC in a cross promotional division showdown.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know it’s hard to tell because, like Nate said with a very nice metaphor, there just isn’t enough cross polination; but do you not think Diego would be the most physically daunting challenge Aoki’s ever faced? Could Maynard and Edgar not keep it off the mat and win on the feet? Could Tyson Griffin not use his badonkadonk to grind out a decision? Not to mention that Above This Fire was 100% correct in saying BJ is significantly better in every area.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than snappy dressing sir. B.J. doesn’t have those fashionista skillz like Aoki.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like Aoki should be putting someone in the Crippler Crossface with those pants
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d pay good money to see that.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki is too one dimensional. The fact that such a one dimensional fighter is the champ is all the proof you need that Dream has the weaker lightweights. Period. If Aoki ever gets in the ring with someone who can stuff his takedowns, he’s toast. A guy with gaping holes in his game is just not the best in the world in MMA. Just isn’t. Getting in the ring with a bunch of stronger, heavier BJJ blackbelts who can strike… well, you thought Aoki was crying after the last Hansen match.
by toxic on Oct 7, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s been in the ring with people who could stuff his takedowns, namely J.Z. and Alvarez. Beat ’em both.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha, yeah, that one didn’t go so well. It was at 170, though, and the finish came from a technique that would be illegal in the UFC, so it’s not directly relevant to the UFC LW vs. DREAM LW question.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, true it was at 170.
But a lot of guys have Mach’s strength even at 170,…namely Sherk and Maynard. Core strength wise, Edgar is right up there too.
What about a huge LW like Gleison Tibau with good BJJ?
by MickDawg on Oct 7, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a tough style matchup for sure, though I’m not certain what Gleison’s TD defense is made of.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, let me rephrase: any fighter elusive enough to avoid Aoki’s spider monkey routine, which would be no mean feat, would leave Aoki with no offense whatsoever.
by toxic on Oct 7, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean if you can avoid someone’s offense, they won’t have any offense? Deep insight, dude! (winking emoticon)
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brock probably can’t beat Fedor?
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
by Sergio Non on Oct 7, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For those who missed it...
Aoki said about five times in his post-fight interview that he really wants to fight B.J. Penn. He also mentioned Kenny Florian and Gray Maynard, and said “I’m not the world’s best yet, not ’til I beat those guys.”
by Chris Nelson on Oct 7, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think its just the point that aoki seems to call these guys out after every fight
i doubt he really believes the ufc are going to ship off talent to fight under the dream rules (and hometown advantages)…
by pmac06340 on Oct 7, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki is a strong JJ guy...
but otherwise he is an idiot. He should fight without pants and in a location where they don’t favor him rule-wise before he starting talking again.
by Razreshat on Oct 7, 2009 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His judo is pretty amazing too.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 7, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomi’s fight against BJ Penn was prior to his run in PRIDE which offered him a lot of experience and a couple unique challenges. I don’t think he would fare any better, as BJ has also improved. But I do not think it is an accurate indicator of the cross-over potential of Japanese stars. I think BJ is obviously at the top of the heap, but short of Sean Sherk and Frankie Edgar, I do not think any of the UFC LW’s at this time have the ability to beat the likes of Aoki/Kawajiri/Alvarez/Hansen.
by Ahhhoki on Oct 7, 2009 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hansen again.
Why? What makes Hansen so good and ranked so high?
by MickDawg on Oct 7, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hansen would get smoked
He’d look like Spencer Fisher against Edgar, Maynard, or Griffin.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is all a mistranslation
He didn’t say that DREAM had better LW fighters than the UFC.
He said something VERY close to that. I mean, it means almost the same thing – you could say that they’re equivalent, but you’d need to craft a response a little differently once you know the actual translation of what he was saying:
“I AM AS HIGH AS A KITE RIGHT NOW.”
See the difference?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Oct 7, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
subtle but telling
thank you for the expert translation.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whenever i say this...
But I have little doubt that B.J. Penn would hurt Shinya Aoki real real bad. Even in DREAM, even with the extremely biased refereeing that Aoki takes advantage of in every fight. B.J. is the far more decorated grappler, can actually strike AND take a punch, is the better wrestler and would walk into the ring with a significant weight advantage.
i get crucified on here… to me, it’s pretty easy to see.
by cagefightonacid on Oct 7, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
B.J. Penn probably wrecks Aoki standing instantly more times than not. People need to realize that Aoki’s grappling is a great thing he harnesses, but BJ has both K-1 level striking and the grappling acumen to dominate him.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 7, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think it’s k1 level, or are you just trying to make a point?
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by GregS123 on Oct 7, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has fared the best out of anyone striking with Machida.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 7, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
B.J. striking can compete with K-1 level fighters based on accuracy and speed. Anyone who actually thinks differently is kidding themselves.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 7, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m not disagreeing necessarily, but it’s a bold point that i hadn’t considered before.
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by GregS123 on Oct 7, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Rogan has said it many times
especially back in the early days of B.J.’s first UFC run.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 7, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think of what GSP would do to K1 fighters then...
by Razreshat on Oct 7, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kick them in the balls
Take them down, and pound on them until disqualified?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Oct 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ's striking > GSP's striking
There was a reason he bullied him around and took him down for copious amounts of g’n’p.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 7, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bold point?
It’s been said numerous times upon numerous times here, there, everywhere.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ walks around at 190! He would have such a size advantage on the Japan fighters who dont cut.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 7, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can’t be serious. Where on earth did you hear that? There’s no way on earth BJ fluctuates 35 pounds. I mean, I could be wrong, but damn that’s the first time I heard that.
by Dooda on Oct 7, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could just be because he was bulking up for that fight, though. Doesn’t mean he walks around at that weight habitually, especially now that he’s fighting at LW again.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maaaaybe 190
in terms of really chubbing it up Ricky Fatton style. No effin way 190 any other way.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 7, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good to hear that at least a couple of the staff agree with me
by cagefightonacid on Oct 7, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ Penn would flatten Aoki, period. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Oct 7, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“f Aoki ever gets in the ring with someone who can stuff his takedowns, he’s toast.”
Aoki’s managed to takedown virtually everyone he’s fought. Usually more than once. He took Hansen down with ease in that fight, multiple times. I can see guys like Maynard or Griffin making it the usual wrestler-turned kickboxer affair, but Aoki just has a different style altogether…whereas the aforementioned wrestler-turned kickboxer is easier to prepare for than it is to prepare for someone with Aoki’s skillset.
I do think it would be interesting to see Aoki fight withouth maintaining a dialogue with the ref the whole damn time tho’….i am weary of his complaining about whatever…..i also think the lack of 10 minute rounds and more likely restarts in the UFC might give him problems….
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
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by theworldsoldestsport on Oct 7, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To be fair… Hansen’s takedown defense is notoriously terrible.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 7, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen...
his takedown defense is insanely bad…like so terrible and it showed in that fight.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 7, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say a good equivalent for Aoki in the UFC is...
Damia Maia (granted, at a heavier weight class). Even as a big fan, its is now painfully obvious how the lack of stand up in the UFC will eventually come back to haunt you when you start to get to the more well rounded fighters.
by Razreshat on Oct 7, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Im sry aoki and im going to let you finish but B.J. Penn is the greatest lightweight of all time
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
by pitbull187 on Oct 7, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ha!
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 7, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OF ALL TIME.
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by jemaleddin on Oct 7, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talent yes but he doesn’t have the resume. That distinction belongs to Gomi, and by far.
by gunranger on Oct 7, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you ignore that BJ beat Gomi.
Nogueira has a better resume than Fedro if you ignore Fedro’s wins over Nog. Would you say that Nog is a better HW?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 7, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference is that Nogueira was #1 when Fedor beat him, whereas BJ beat Gomi before Gomi’s stint in PRIDE, after he had just lost in Shooto. It would have meant more to beat Joachim Hansen at the time.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gomi's stint in PRIDE
is a fancy way of saying, “Gomi’s stint in the Gomi Division where they created a Gomi weight class for him and hand-picked fighters to build Gomi up.”
BJ would have destroyed Gomi at any point in his career and would CRUSH him today.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Oct 8, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the gomi division, because weight classes of 93+kg, 93kg, 83kg, and 70.3kg would have made sense.
by Phildo on Oct 8, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They seem to make sense elsewhere....
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by jemaleddin on Oct 8, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dream has completely different weight classes, meant to be closer to the standard in the US.
The US weight classes are measured in pounds, so they make sense.
pride did not have a Welterweight class, so the 10kg difference in weight class makes sense. That plus Gomi making 154 for all his fights in Sengoku, where they actually called a tournament “the road to Gomi” shoots the whole “pride had 160 for gomi myth” right in the foot, doesn’t it?
by Phildo on Oct 8, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BJ would have destroyed Gomi at any point in his career and would CRUSH him today.
I don’t really dispute that BJ would have beaten Gomi at any point. All I’m saying is that when BJ actually did fight him, Gomi was not yet the Undisputed Top Japanese Lightweight Takanori Gomi that we all know from his PRIDE days. He had, in fact, just lost his Shooto title (which was, incidentally, at 154 and not the “Gomi weight”). This undermines the Fedor/Nogueira analogy that iiowyn brought up, because at the time Fedor beat Nogueira, Nog was the consensus #1 heavyweight in the world.
The conclusion here is that you don’t necessarily need to ignore that BJ beat Gomi to say that Gomi has the better LW resume, since Gomi lost to BJ before he racked up what are usually considered his major accomplishments.
by JRN on Oct 8, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a Kayne west type joke but i still think B.J. is the best.
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
by pitbull187 on Oct 7, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhh Aoki, talk is so so easy. I love how easy it is. You just open your mouth and let it all come whisping out. Rocking, back and forth, back and forth, talking breezy.
I think if there’s one matchup I’d pay good good money to see besides Machida/Silva, it’s Aoki Penn, just because I’d love to see Aoki get destroyed. Hell I think Florian would destroy Aoki.
by Dooda on Oct 7, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Indeed he would.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 8, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is such a funny thing for people to be upset about. Aoki is the face of DREAM’s lightweight division, and if he never volunteered his thought about the UFC, he’d almost certainly be asked about it. So what is he supposed to say? “DREAM is pretty good, but the UFC is better”?
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it would be funny if Kanye took the mic out of his hand at a press conference, so yeah…
by madiq on Oct 7, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he would gogoplata Kanye?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 8, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would pay to see that
And I LOVE Kanyeezy.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 8, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
....
You have to go all the way back to B.J. Penn’s 2003 deconstruction of Takanori Gomi for the last time a major UFC contender fought a top Japanese star. And 2003 is two MMA lifetimes ago.
Pulver-Gomi?
And there was nothing biased about the reffing in the fight. I fail to see how a groin shot gets overlooked. People just hate Aoki. And again BJ gets all the credit yet the same people are crucifying Fedor for the same situations.
by gunranger on Oct 7, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The part of that quote I would quibble with is the notion of Gomi as a “top Japanese star” at the time. The Penn fight was right before his legendary PRIDE run (before he’d ever fought in PRIDE at all), and directly after losing in Shooto to Joachim Hansen.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
Plus I don’t like how people just anoint BJ the title of unbeatable at LW. He has 12 fights at LW (4 in 6 years). All the other top LWs have way more and against tough opponents so of course they’ll have a few losses.
by gunranger on Oct 7, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sympathetic to the picture of BJ as an unbeatable LW because, on paper, he’s a bad matchup for literally everyone. But MMA fights aren’t contested on paper.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look out! Somebody found fightfinder.
However, BJ’s reputation isn’t built against the volume of his record OR his win/loss ratio— it’s the quality of his opponents, and the way he fights them. Even in his losses, he looks good against top flight competition, and is typically losing to someone bigger (exceptions: Pulver beat him @ 155, and he didn’t look good against GSP this last time).
If fighting is a math problem, then yeah, that argument holds water. However, there is the other matter to contend with of BJ just obviously being on a different if you honestly watch and assess his skills or consider the fact he doesn’t look for anything less than the best opponent he can fight against.
by LBo on Oct 7, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you're saying is crazy and it makes me want to have you held for a psych eval
Seriously: You’re finding fault with BJ’s record at 155 because he’s been so successful at 170 (beating, you know, the most dominant 170lb champ of all time), 185 and held his own against Lyoto Machida when Lyoto was 224? Really?
How would Aoki do at 185? We’ve seen that he can’t handle a midlevel fighter at 170.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on Oct 8, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude...
cup-shot or not, the ref assisted an Aoki takedown. The referee literally grabbed Hansen’s foot and lifted it up as Aoki was attempting to take him down in the clinch. The impetus was that Hansen’s foot was in the rope (“NO ROPE-A!!!”), but the ref couldn’t have chosen a more fortuitous opportunity to grab his leg and lift it.
I mean, C’MON!
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 7, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That actually wasn’t a LW fight. I don’t think Nick has ever made 155.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fight was at 160, where all of Pride’s LW fights were at. So if you’re going to throw that fight out, throw them all out.
by Phildo on Oct 7, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
That was Pride’s LW limit to accommodate Gomi.
by MickDawg on Oct 7, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, because the only logical explanation for weight classes of Over 93kg, 93kg, 83 kg, and 73kg is to accomadate Gomi, who has had no trouble making 154 for his fights in Sengoku in the last few years.
by Phildo on Oct 8, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa, I didn’t know that! I thought 154 was the LW standard over there since forever.
by JRN on Oct 8, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah, Pride didn’t have WW, so it made sense for them to just make the weight classes 10kg apart.
by Phildo on Oct 8, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone needs to tell Aoki that saying things outloud doesn’t actually make them true. The UFC has by far the best LW division in mma even their middle of the pack LW’s would smash the top LW’s outside of the UFC. The division is incredibly deep and filled with guys who are very hard to finish have great all around skills and can go all night. If Aoki or anyone else of the Dream guys ever decide to test the waters they’d get a reality check real quick because the UFC LW’s are monsters.
by Raker on Oct 7, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that Clay Guida would smash Yusuke Endo.
Seriously why can’t people stop being biased and judge things objectively?
by gunranger on Oct 7, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone needs to tell Raker that saying things outloud doesn’t actually make them true.
Fixed that for ya.
by JRN on Oct 7, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Someone needs to tell Aoki that saying things outloud doesn’t actually make them true. The UFC has by far the best LW division in mma even their middle of the pack LW’s would smash the top LW’s outside of the UFC. The division is incredibly deep and filled with guys who are very hard to finish have great all around skills and can go all night. If Aoki or anyone else of the Dream guys ever decide to test the waters they’d get a reality check real quick because the UFC LW’s are monsters.
Wow. Pretty lame. It’s not a deep division. The problem is that to some degree, all the guys in that division are pretty middle of the road. The nature of hype though, i guess. Kenny Florian beats Heurta and Stevenson, and most people are saying he’s top 5 before he fought BJ. A guy like eddie alverez would absolutely smash all three of those guys.
by harbourmc on Oct 7, 2009 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eddie Alvarez would be smashed in the UFC by middle of the road guy like Neer, the way people continue to overate non UFC LW’s continues to amaze me.
Somehow when the Japanese LW’s fight and defeat each other they retain or improve their rankings while the UFC guys can beat several people in a row and never move up at all that’s why they are completelly irrelevant and have been for years now.
Aoki can continue to run his mouth but he knows that if he ever came to the UFC he wouldn’t make it to BJ because any of the top UFC LW’s would beat him and prove how ridiculous his comments are.
by Raker on Oct 8, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is based on what exactly?
Have you noticed how whenever you import a fighter into the UFC from a Japanese promotion they look like they shrunk about 2 sizes in the dryer? Pocket Wanderlei? Yoshihiro “what’s that welterweight doing in there” Akiyama?
Not that this would happen to Alvarez necessarily, he’s VERY good, but the smashing generally goes in the other direction regarding fighters we thought were beefy or explosive in Japan.
by LBo on Oct 7, 2009 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really hope Crusher crushes this noob.
by majesticlamb on Oct 7, 2009 8:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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