Machida's run up to the title makes others seem trite (edited title)
by Dooda on Oct 5, 2009 1:34 AM EDT
60 comments
Watching the Machida Shogun preview I can’t help but be reminded at how amazing Machida’s run has been. Beating a Soku who was supposed to be a terrifying up-and-comer, beating probably the most motivated Tito ever, beating a Rashad Evans who had never been knocked out or even lost, beating a Thiago Silva who had the skills to make even the most tough fighters look straight up bad. And not only did he beat these guys who gave other elite fighters fits and losses, he beat them down while leaving no questions (which you can't say for Forrest or Rashad or even Rampage).
Compare it to Rashad, who beat an overrated Bisping, and (IMO) Forrest and an over the hill Chuck; and Forrest's run which had him beating a messed up Rampage and an out of shape Shogun to get his title. That said, I love Forrest and Rashad and their rise to their respective title was impressive and should be respected; but damn, compared to Machida's they just seem...trite?
It gets no easier for Machida as he goes to face a Shogun who most think has risen back to the old form that had him the most feared Light Heavy in Pride, and was a consensus top 5 p4p--most lists had him at #2-3. Have I overstated this? Is there any title run that is more impressive than Machida's? I admit becoming a huge fan of Machida when watching the countdown to the Tito fight (he was like an old school samurai zen warrior) so I've loved his rise since then and I always told my buddies that he was going to win when they thought he was going to get killed, but am I going too far with this? It wouldn't be the first time, but this is my first fanpost so be nice if it's in you.
Edit: I'm not comparing Machida to established champion title runs by Anderson, GSP, Fedor, and Wanderlie in his prime, Chuck in his prime, etc. He obviously has much to prove now that he's champion. But I'm thinking mostly about his run up to the title compared to others, especially in the light heavyweight division.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
0 recs |
60 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
I think that
Fedor’s run of dominance @ HW has yet to be paralleled by anyone in any other division. Anderson’s UFC tear has been nothing short of legendary. Chuck’s reign of LHW was pretty epic as well. Both of Hughes’ title runs were very impressive.
TBH, Machida is very promising and very well could be one of the greatest ever, but he’s not quite there yet. Let him defend the belt a couple times before we declare him the 2’nd coming of Jesus. And honestly, i think he’s gonna have his hands full w/ Shogun, and the next challenger after that (Page if he comes back, maybe Cane/ Rogerio). LHW is a shark tank
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
agreed.
But I think Wanderlei’s reign of terror surpassed Chuck’s. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not one to dismiss anything Chuck has done, but Wanderlei was a terrifying monster for about 4 years.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
A lot of Wandy’s reputation, though, was built on undersized Japanese fighters. Make no mistake, he was a beast, but Chuck has fought more consistently-quality opponents. Quantity vs Quality, is all.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 5, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions
but you can also argue that Chuck fought mostly grapplers with no stand up, so once he had his sprawl down, it was just a matter of time before he got the KO. Proof? Once he faced someone with decent striking, he got KO Rd1.
Not saying that I agree with what I just said, just making the point that you can similarly discredit Chuck.
that's why discrediting wins isn't right..
you can do it for anyone..
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 5, 2009 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s why I hope I don’t come off as discrediting anyone’s wins. There’s always going to be reasons for why so and so beat someone else, mostly I’m just taking wins from a couple of fighters, and comparing them to Machidas’, which blows me away in comparison. Machida leaves no question. I can’t rationalize against any of Machidas wins.
Wrong.
Mezger and Overeem were both strikers, and while you could make the point that they were both beating Chuck on points just before the finish, he still KO’d them.
Point is Chuck got KOs because he had a tough chin and heavy, heavy hands. Please stop continuing to spout this argument when it has been invalidated time and time again.
by lowellthehammer on Oct 5, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well first off, I said "mostly"
so my statement is still valid. Second, I acknowledged that the argument was flawed, I was repeating it as an example of how wrong it is to discredit wins retroactively.
Also, I guess I forgot to specify, but I was referring to his title run, which you can’t deny was grappler heavy. Couture, Horn, Renato, Ortiz… it didn’t get broken until he faced a really good striker in Jackson.
Forgot Wand
add him to the list.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Oct 5, 2009 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow, you're a little nutty!
Only way to explain putting the extremely overrated Soku, an over the hill Tito, and an untested Thiago Silva over guys like Liddell, Rampage, Shogun, and Forrest. Give me a break.
Oh God, WHY?
I don’t know why some MMA fans feel a need to do this, but it is so ridiculous to discredit fighters’ opponents. With all four of the fighters that you mentioned, I can and many MMA fans can find a way or ways to discredit them. For example, Chuck Liddell’s title reign was only as great as it seemed because he fought mainly wrestlers and grapplers, and once he fought another good striker (Rampage), he got killed. I can make the claim that Forrest Griffin is overrated because he lost to Keith Jardine and Rashad Evans. I can find some way to discredit the four fighters you mentioned just as easily as you can try to discredit Machida, but in the end, IT PROVES NOTHING.
Look, I’m not trying to discredit any fighters, I’m just saying it’s a stretch to proclaim Machida’s title run as clearly better than that of Forrest or Rashad, and it’s downright nutty to call it amazing.
That’s cool, but it ain’t a stretch to me. He soundly and handily beat a Tito Ortiz who soundly beat Forrest and got a draw (if you watch the fight you see Ortiz definitely was the dominant fighter in his fight with Rashad). He also beat a Thiago Silva who destroyed an extremely tough Keith Jardine.
And I’m not trying to discredit other fighters either. Forrests and Rashad’s title runs were legit. Totally legit. They were getting wins in tough divisions, but when I look at Machida’s wins in comparison, they just don’t seem quite as impressive.
Except that it WAS clearly better than that of Forrest or Rashad, based simply on absolute dominance of every fight Machida’s had. Amazing is in the eye of the beholder, I’ll grant you. But I’ve been pretty amazed…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 5, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a borderline unhealthy obsession with Machida...
and I agree his run was one of the most impressive ever, certainly over Rashad and Forrest’s. But honestly, Wand, Fedor, Anderson, and several others’ streaks are still far more impressive than Lyoto’s. Even with the Serra loss, GSP’s last few years, with the quality of opponents he’s faced, has far exceeded Machida’s accomplishments. I do think it’s getting harder to sustain as the quality and depth of divisions continue to improve, but he’s still got a long way to go…However, I think he beats Shogun, Rampage, and whoever else for at least a year, and we can talk about his historical signifigence then :) Lyoto has a few bread and butter moves, but there’s also something new in every fight, and he’s just recently started a full strength and conditioning regimen. I’d like to think Shogun will put up a good battle, cause he does have better speed, kicks and punching power than most of Lyoto’s opponents thus far, but he’s also wild, off his base a lot, and, IMO would get beat in the clinch or on the ground. Can’t wait to find out.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 5, 2009 2:15 AM EDT reply actions
How did Forrest beat a messed up Rampage?
He didnt go on his mini-rampage until after the Griffin loss and I dont get how you got the most motivated Tito ever at UFC 84?
Look I’m not trying to take anything away from Machida because he is one bad mo-fo but I dont think you can take anything away from others as well. Fedor, Hughes in his prime, Chuck in his prime, Wand in his Prime, GSP, Anderson Silva.
I think Machida needs to defend the title a few times as well. Everything is more impressive when your the champ and people are coming at you harder than before because they want the belt.
Could Machida easily go down as the best LHW in the history of mma? Yes but lets wait before we get ahead of ourselves. Hell I think Machida will beat Shogun with ease but if he somehow loses that is gonna derail this train really fast.
Well, Rampage was supposedly living on energy drinks up to the fight, and his mind was deteriorating before he was going into the fight with Forrest. Of course I could be wrong though and it was just a difficult matchup for Rampage.
But when you’re a Machida nut hugger like me, you conveniently spin everything to make him seem as great as you’ve convinced yourself he is.
It's not even a question
Yes , Machida is that great . He’s undefeated and he looks better and better each fight , against Rashad Evans (who is ranked 3 lets not forget) he was phenomenal , he absolutely killed him . And Evans has very fast hands .
However – no one is invincible and if Shogun can catch him Machida will go down , but I think it’s very unlikely .
I don’t get it. If Rashad’s run to the title wasn’t impressive, then why is Machida’s victory over him such a huge victory?
The headline talks about Machida’s title run – which is, as we all know, exactly zero defenses long. His run to the title isn’t anything to sneeze at, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves when talking about his title run. Leave the superlatives out until he puts together something like Anderson Silva or Chuck Liddell have.
It’s also a bit biased to claim that Shogun was an out-of-shape nobody against Forrest – and now, when he’s facing Machida, all of a sudden the same man is a Top5 LHW. Was Shogun out of shape just because Forrest beat him? Shogun’s no joke and personally I think Machida will have his hands full trying to hang onto his title.
He IS talking about Lyoto's run up to the title
and you can tell that by the body of the text he typed. Just because you don’t agree with the title’s choice of words doesn’t change the intent of the article.
I would love
to say with enthusiam that there is someone out there that is gonna stomp a mudhole in Machida, sadly (even though I am not a great fan of the “elusive” technique) I don’t see it happening any time soon. I can’t think of a LHW, except for a bulked up Anderson, that could concievable beat him. That said, I agree with the author calling into question Rashad and Forrest’s respective title runs (and I’m a Forrest fan, even after the Silva fight).
One thing about Machida that gets overlooked is the number of undefeated fighters he’s faced. Nearly half his fights were against fighters who had never lost until he beat them:
Rashad Evans
Tiago Silva
Rich Franklin
Stephan Bonnar
David Heath
Sam Greco
Michael McDonald
Granted Greco and McDonald aren’t that impressive. On the other hand, he’s given one third of the current top 10 205 pound fighters their first loss.
The first three are really good fighters and Bonnar is not awful but the list really starts to trail off there.
I think the real important thing here is that so far he has beaten T.Silva, Franklin, Ortiz, Evans and B.J. Penn.
Now that is impressive.
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 5, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Apart from the list of fighters Machida’s beaten, it’s also the fact that he’s completely outclassed all of them, with the notable exception of BJ Penn, and beaten them in their supposed strengths. Better in the clinch than Nakamura, Soko and Tito, dominant on the feet against everyone. Anyone else’s run to the title has included a bunch of wars, close decisions, etc. Machida’s never really been hurt, and he makes everyone he fights look far worse than they are…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 5, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Forrest’s win over Rampage is frought with controversy. I always supported it and defended it, but let’s face it, it was a war and it was controversial. Rashad’s draw with Tito looks, to me, like a unanimous decision loss (if you just watch the fighting). Plus there’s all these problematics. Forrest beat Rampage but lost to Rashad convincingly etc etc. There’s none of that with Machida. He systematically leaves no question as to who wins the fight.
Michael McDonald?
One half of “Ya Mo Be There”? The guy whose song, “I Keep Forgettin’”, provided the sample to one of the early 90’s best rap tracks, “Regulate”?
First an easy rock singer, now a fighter. That man has range.
by INGO B on Oct 5, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Reminds me of the electronics store from 40 year old virgin
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Woah everyone, before annointing Lyoto the king of the UFC for all eternity lets just slow down and eat some chips.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
Come on, drink the kool-aid with us! One of us! One of us!
You know the secret ingredient…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 5, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I love chips. But I’m clearly not annointing Lyoto king of the UFC for all eternity, I’m simply admiring the most challenging and hardest working rise to the title I have ever seen. In two years when Machida has beaten Anderson, Mir, Lesnar, and Fedor, I’ll be right there to crown him though. You can bank on that.
my Machida-Do Karate DVDs are in the mail
my gf ordered them for me as a birthday present. what a wonderful girl.
I’m not sure there will ever be another run up to the title like the one GSP had.
Strasser, Miller, Trigg, Sherk, Penn, and Hughes all within a period of less than two years.
Couldn't have said it better
His Rise is unlike any other…
His reign has yet to be seen but his rise was something like epic
I love Machida BUT
All this Machida hype is starting to sound like the GSP hype before he got knocked out by Matt Serra.
Machida is amazing and is my favorite fighter but Shogun is no joke.
Folks seem to forget that if it wasn’t for a injured knee in which he had to get surgery on and a broken arm he wouldn’t have lost in the last 6 years.
Not saying he should or will win but the lack of respect he is getting going into this fight is quite disturbing.
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 6, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
but if you look at them lately, Shogun has looked mediocre while MAchida’s been on a tear.
And undefeated in the past six years doesn’t mean much to Lyoto, there’s a long list of fighters who got their first L from him (see above).
He didn’t look great against Coleman but still managed to TKO him and took out Liddell quickly and painfully. Clearly he should be the underdog by comparison but he has proven that he is one of the better 205 fighters in the world over the years.
Machida may or may not win but I’m expecting it to be quite more competitive than what most folks are suggesting.
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 7, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s really hard for me to say. I mean Rashad took out Liddel in a similar fashion as Shogun, and look at how Rashad did.
I’m hoping for a competitive, taditional Shogun that has the old magic and gives Machida trouble. If that’s the case I don’t care who wins because I love both those guys. But if it happens that Shogun gets his clock cleaned by Machida, it wouldn’t surprise me terribly. Shogun’s wins were mostly competitive with a few exceptions. (Lil’Nog, Coleman, etc) where it’s really hard to gauge just how good Machida is because he’s never actually been in trouble aside from fighting BJ Penn, and that was a long time ago.
It's crazy how fast popular opinion can change.
wasn’t long ago that the majority of people were bagging on Machida. I’d get sick of coming on to MMA blogs and forums and seeing him get such little respect. Then he KO’d Thiago Silva and tunes changed instantly. He just needed a couple of brutal knockouts on his resume to get the meatheads singing his praises. I’ve never understood how people couldn’t appreciate the technique on display in all of his fights. Seeing someone be masterful at something is always a pleasure for me to watch, and never boring.
My feelings on all the Machida hype are bittersweet. I’m glad he’s getting the attention and acclaim as a fighter that he’s deserved for so long, but I think a lot of it is faux respect from fair weather fans who will go silent the minute he takes a loss. Win or lose, I’m a Machida fan for life.
Now when will people stop shitting on Tyson Griffin!
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/10/4/1068964/new-machida-hl-video#22353890
It actually annoys me when people get up on their high horse and say stuff like this. I was a Machida fan from the first time I saw him fight (I think it was Soku). But that means nothing. Would I have been a fan a year earlier? Who knows. Probably not. Everyone at their own pace. Everyone is learning the different details of the sport at their own pace. There was a time years ago that I groaned every time two fighters went to grappling. Since then I’ve learned a lot about grappling so I appreciate it now. People groaned about Machida because they didn’t get it, but they’re starting to get it now (as well as Machida is getting more aggressive).
People love to say things like “All you people knocking him will be coming on here and nuthugging tomorrow” I’d like to see documentation of that. In my experience most people come back and admit they were wrong and see the light. Others don’t say anything, but the truth of it isn’t what you think it is.
People love to say things like "All you people knocking him will be coming on here and nuthugging tomorrow" I’d like to see documentation of that. In my experience most people come back and admit they were wrong and see the light. Others don’t say anything, but the truth of it isn’t what you think it is.
You’d like to see documentation? LOL. Sure, let me just take a quick trip to the notary. Besides, that’s not even what I said. Though I don’t necessarily disagree with the sentiment. I’m not keeping track of the opinions of individuals all across the internet, so I can expose them as fair weather, bandwagon jumping fans. I’m going by what I’ve noticed to be the aggregate consensus of the vocal online contingent.
Fact – less than a year ago, you’d be hard-pressed to find positive comments about Machida from the posters on blogs and message boards. The idea of him getting a title shot induced massive groans and e-ulcers. Not saying everyone, but the majority, and I remember well the frustration I felt back then. If you liked Machida then you were just trying to be a “cool kid” that acted like he thought Machida’s technical skill was exciting. Because nobody can find Machida’s style exciting or entertaining. I actually had a staff writer at a big MMA blog say that to me, followed by the majority parroting his sentiments. Two KO’s later and he’s the 2nd coming of Christ. You don’t think that the paradigm will shift again if Machida loses, strings together decisions, or doesn’t remain as dominant as he is now? You think people are really starting to get him, or are they just hyping him up because he’s the top dog right now? Stay on the nuts of whoever is dominant at the time, because if you root for a winner, well then you’re a winner too! Woo hoo. I HOPE that’s not the case here, and Machida has built himself a dedicated fan base, but I’m definitely not confident in that assertion.
Also, I don’t see many people admitting they were wrong about Machida. Nor should they really. They weren’t wrong, it was their subjective opinion about his fighting style. What I hear more often is that he’s exciting now because he’s more aggressive. I don’t even really agree with that. I see him pretty much fighting as he did before, except that he’s more effective at hurting his opponent.. His strikes cause more damage, and thus he is provided more opportunities to capitalize on their mistakes and weaknesses. He’s a little bit more aggressive, but not that much. Not enough to turn him from the most boring fighter on the planet to the most awesome in 9 months.
And you also have to take things on a fight by fight basis. It was obviously extremely important that Machida not mess around with Tito’s power, so his elusiveness was probably a little more important in that one. Thiago and Rashad he probably wasn’t as worried about that.
And I’m not denying your fact. The blogs were replete with people groaning Machida. I loved and defended him, but most others didn’t. I’m just not massively quick to judge them all as willy nillies who quickly change their tune as soon as the fighter gets popular again.
The fact is, Lyoto is more popular now. Lyoto wasn’t as popular before. Everything in between is just your mind making crap up. You see all these people against him and then you see all these people for him, and so you assume that all the people against him just switched sides, not taking into consideration other possibilities. I saw people all over the place talking about how they didn’t really like Lyoto before, but they like him now, and admit they didn’t really get it before. A lot of the people bashing him then probably aren’t talking about it now. A lot of the people that weren’t talking about it then are maybe talking more about it now. And yeah maybe there’s a few people that just bandwagon jump, but I seriously doubt it’s what you think it is. Of course that’s subjective, but I haven’t seen many specific people just all of a sudden change their tune.
- Tito has more power than Rashad, Silva and Sokoudjou??
- My point was never so much about hypocritical former haters as it was about the fickle masses who latch onto a hot property. The general air of hatred/disgust/apathy that changed to glowing adoration nearly overnight, speaks volumes. It can turn just as quickly back in the opposite direction, is part of my point.
- You are either making incorrect assumptions about what I think, have me confused with someone else, or are using hyperbole to make a point. Either way, your statement is not even close to an accurate description of how and what I think.
- I think that many of the people who admit to not liking his style before, but now “get it” since he KO’d a couple of guys and got the belt… don’t really get it. I’m either too cynical, or not naive enough to believe otherwise. It’s just an opinion. I’m aware I could be wrong.
- I think a lot more than “maybe a few” people bandwagon jump. Some people treat it like it’s a profession. Want specific examples? Go to Sherdog, click on the Member List, and throw a virtual dart.
- None of this is really important and is probably boring the shit out of anyone reading it.
- Some people say that cucumbers taste better pickled. What? Huh?
- I vowed to not get into any more endless debates that revolve around minutiae and opinion. There’s plenty of that on BE already, and I have a broken scroll wheel to prove it. So I’ll leave it to the pros and ride out on my high horse. Peace.
Tito in terms of top control and grappling, yeah I’d say so.
My point (I didn’t make it very well in the last post) is that the facts are that Lyoto was once not popular and now is. Whatever happened in between is pure conjecture and doesn’t necessarily reflect reality. Yeah there’s some bandwagon jumpers, how many there actually are is up for debate. I suppose my thing is that it looks like some people sort of get off on calling people bandwagoneers, so that they can ride off on their virtual high horse, and I suppose I assumed that you were one of them. But of course that’s as subjective as anything else that I’ve pointed my finger at.
And as you put, I’m very aware that I could be wrong. Or that I’m not right. Or that we’re both wrong and right. Peace.
hmmmm
ok, i agree with the rise to power, and i agree it will be very difficult to take the belt from him. but i do not agree that the person to do it is shogun, not a chance. shogun sucks and it is a damn slap in the face to all the other LHWs that he is put into a title fight. maybe shogun vs cane for the shot, or even cane vs jon jones, either way shogun getting a title fight is ridiculous. i too have a man crush on machida, so i think he is deserving of someone better than “i beat two over the hilll fighters” shogun. but the ufc is a business, so money wins by KTFO.
heres one for ya, I think ryan bader is going to be the one to beat the Machida.
ufc fan boy all the way
I’m not sure if you’re replying to me or not, but I don’t think Shogun is going to beat him. However, if Shogun truly is back to his old form, it’s just another example of Machida defeating the worst odds thrown against him. I can’t think of a scarier opponent than the Shogun of old.
i can
a smart rashad or ryan bader, wrestlers with umph. i know tito was supposed to be that, but a more intelligent fighter like rashad SHOULD have, IMO.
ufc fan boy all the way
Whelp, you’ll have to forgive me for not feeling like Rashad is a scary opponent to Machida right now.
And this BS about Rashad not using his wrestling has no legs to me. Lyoto gave him nothing to set up a takedown. In order to wrestle you have to close the distance and Rashad never was able to. Probably his striking was going to try and demand respect, and then he was going to try and get Machida down, but the critique that Rashad abandoned his wrestling and tried to simply outstrike Machida doesn’t fly with me.
Shogun, on the other hand always ended up in the dominant position in the clinch. When the fight goes to scramble, he always capitalizes. His positional top game is tops, his striking—though overrated—is definitely among the better strikers (certainly more dynamic than Rashad’s). But this is the Shogun of old. We don’t know if he’s returned by now, but there’s a good chance that he has.
Unfortunately I don’t remember seeing Bader’s fights. I’ll check them out. Thanks for the tip though.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
