Is the MMA Talent Pool Drying Up?
by Kid Nate on Oct 30, 2009 2:08 PM EDT
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MMA Weekly has a story about the tryouts for The Ultimate Fighter season 11 in Los Angeles on Monday:
There were 190 middleweights and 81 light heavyweights who showed up cauliflower ears and all in hopes of becoming the next "Ultimate Fighter."
...UFC president Dana White called it a low turnout and said he was looking to recruit three or four fighters that day. After season nine's tryouts drew 700 welterweight and lightweights, he was perplexed by the drop-off.
"It's very weird," he said. "You would think right now in these hard economic times... I thought this would be the biggest turnout we ever had."
The story focuses on several veteran fighters who are trying out for TUF this season including: Jason Lambert, Nick "the Goat" Thompson, Logan Clark, and Wayne Cole. Even TUF season 1 participant Bobby Southworth was back for another bite at the apple.
All but Cole and Clark made it to the second round.
Thompson was skeptical about the veteran fighters' chances of becoming reality TV stars:
"I'm sure none of them will get on, and we'll see a bunch of guys that are terrible but think they're the best fighters in the world," he laughed. "The truth is, if you're a really good fighter it's because you train hard, you don't drink, and you're doing the right things, which makes for boring TV. That's why they haven't had a second season of the veterans. All the veterans sit around and say, ‘oh man, we can't drink, we've got to get up at seven in the morning and run.'"...
As it turned out, he was wrong, at least for the time being. A Spike representative on Wednesday confirmed that Thompson, Southworth, and Lambert had made it past the first day of auditions. That opened the door for interviews in Vegas, which would bring the fighters one step closer to getting on the show.
More important to me than whether or not SPIKE TV execs make the choice to cast the best fighters or the best reality TV performers is the question of whether or not the MMA talent pool is running dry.
While the UFC has been aggressively expanding its roster and the number of events it puts on per year, the rest of the MMA world has been scaling back.
Important regional circuit promotions like Rumble on the Rock, the WEF and ICON/Superbrawl are gone. Others like HookNShoot, King of the Cage, Cage Rage, and Extreme Challenge are still running shows but fewer than they used to. And no one is doing the kind of great indy events that WEF and KOTC used to which generally featured all local talent with one fight between "name" fighters as headliners.
Sure there are some bright spots in the regional promotional world, like the UWC, Shark Fights in Amarillo, Texas, and XFC in Florida, but we're still running a net deficit in terms of opportunities for local fighters to get experience, build a fan base and hone their skills.
Always remember that amateur MMA barely exists. There are no college or high school MMA programs. There is no equivalent to the Golden Gloves program for MMA. Athletes have to essentially start out at the bottom of the professional ranks.
While I'm all for fighters like Nick Thompson and Jason Lambert getting a second or third chance at UFC stardom, it's distressing to me that the number of applicants for TUF is dropping so sharply. Is that the sound of a straw sucking up the last drops from the bottom of the glass?
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most of the minor league fighters are not in the best economic condition so you can see why they wouldn’t be able to make the tryout.
Also we are seeing more and more questionable talent on TUF. Perhaps top prospects think it is better to avoid the show (or they aren’t being picked bc they aren’t colorful enough) and try to break in later like Todd Duffee.
Another trend could be Strikeforce and Bellator’s recent signings could also be hurting recruitment
watchkalibrun.com
Strikeforce and Bellator
I think its Strikeforce and Bellator’s strategy to competing with the UFC instead of trying to out spend or out bid Zuffa for established names
they are scooping up top prospects before the TUF can get a hold of them
the BFC tournaments and SF Challengers series is where many of the future TUF have gone
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by ultmma on Oct 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I think Strikeforce and Bellator competing for talent in the States along with Japanese promotions having a handle on a lot of talent in their early stages of development really depletes the talent pool.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 30, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Sengoku and DREAM scoop up a lot of the European and all Japanese/Korean talent.
MFC coops up all the Canadian talent.
Strikeforce scoops up a majority of the American talent.
Bellator, XFC, Shark Fights, PFC, etc gets the rest.
Not to mention that TUF has previously passed on Fitch, Alvarez, and Woodley (probably because they are boring and they wanted better contracts) and cast people that have more personality.
Strikeforce is all about grass roots, so, they already have a bunch of contacts with camps all over North America to scout guys and get them signed.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 30, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
WEC
don’t forget about the WEC ….now the 145ers don’t have to fight at 155 so that checks off a lot of MMA prospects
Plus another 25 to 30 guys who fill up the WEC’s own LW division
That may have had a affect on season’s 8 and 9 of TUF
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Yeah, I don’t buy that though.
If the UFC wanted some of those guys… they’d just move them into TUF.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Dana is looking at the economy aspects wrong.
yes, maybe if someone lost their job they would show up to the tryouts hoping to luck out and get on the show and win, but people losing jobs probably hurts in the long run because beginner MMA training is expensive. As you mentioned, there’s no high school mma. High school wrestling is free, there is no high school bjj and very little high school boxing, so it costs money to get started, and that money is not around.
Also, because of the economy, I’d expect less people to quit their job to be on the show, because it’s a much bigger all or nothing prospect. Before you could lose on the show and find another job, now there’s no guarantee that you’ll find a new job.
by Phildo on Oct 30, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
i see a lot of guys fighting locally around boston that impress me more than some of the people i see on TUF.
i just can’t see how with the sport getting more popular, and more and more gyms opening up, that the talent pool wouldn’t be increasing. i suspect that TUF alone is not a good enough indicator. it’s weird that they had low turnout for season 11 tryouts, but there must be other factors at play.
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Exactly
Maybe they need to do a couple try outs across the country.
"Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." - Bullet Tooth Tony
@deowade
They don’t do this already? That’s somewhat of a flaw.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 30, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I know it’s always one tryout on the West Coast. They need to take a page out of American Idols book and have multiple tryouts in Major cities in each Region.
"Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." - Bullet Tooth Tony
@deowade
Yeah, that’s pretty dumb.
They should probably do a worldwide tour. Even if guys don’t know what the show is in Europe, they know what the UFC is and what the opportunity could do for them.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 30, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
They should at least move the tryouts to a more centralized location, somewhere in the mid west maybe. A lot more guys from either side of the country would drive for half a day to get there than could afford to fly across country.
by The Engineer on Oct 30, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
boy would i piss my pants if they get home grown Filipino talent in TUF..
(wait actually, get a bunch of Filipino fighters for the WEC, and just sign folayang already)
yeah, yeah, i’m dreaming.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 30, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of the top talents are being sucked up by Japanese promotions and Strikeforce at this point, and Dana White seems a bit slow in believing that there is a hidden gem out there. I’m sure there is, but the success of Season 1 and Season 2 guys were that they didn’t have much competition to deal with. They all wanted a shot to be on TV, and now with the added competition of Strikeforce having a network deal and face time on the Challengers series plus regular cards… a lot of them could go to Strikeforce early in their careers when the UFC probably wants to see a bit more experience under their belt.
It isn’t all bad though. Most of those guys will become seasoned in those events, and likely entertain an offer from the UFC in the end anyways. It just sucks for TUF.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I was under the impression that the UFC would just snap up those newbie fighters once SF and the Japanese promotions have spent their time and money building those fighters up.
I love me some Sexyama!
That’s the essence of my last paragraph, but if they are trying to get compelling fighters who are good for the actual show… Strikeforce and those promotions actually hinder that possibility. Sure, you might get them for your promotion later… but we’re talking about the actual show.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 30, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Does the UFC ever do stuff where they provide funding to a school for a program? I’m not sure how well it would be received, but for example, my brother went to a private video gaming college that was party funded by a major game maker. Most of the graduates went on to get jobs with said game maker. Perhaps that’s something the UFC could do, as a basic poaching ground for homegrown talent, considering a lot of the smaller promotions are now struggling and/or failing. I know most schools might balk at the thought of letting their kids punch each other in the face and submit each other, but perhaps done in conjunction with other private investors?
I love me some Sexyama!
I think that the talent pool for MMA will always be a bit small. It’s extremely demanding on the body and requires knowledge of a wide variety of styles. It’s much easier to box or wrestling, or even play something other than a combat sport. It’s also still probably growing, regardless of TUF’s reporting, but I think it’ll always have a lower population than most others.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Oct 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT reply actions
Boxing has been losing many future heavyweight prospects to Football and other endeavors. This country doesn’t support boxing like some other countries do. The Olympics is a perfect example.
From what I understand the wrestling programs ain’t what it used to be according to Randy Couture.
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by VeeisAnimated on Oct 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, maybe it’s time to give TUF a break? A year or two off the air might help.
I love me some Sexyama!
I think some guys are going out for the show too early.
They try out with three or four win records, and if they make the show they usually don’t do well. Then they either don’t get invited to fight in the finale or they do and lose because they’re not ready yet.
If they just gained more experience and then tried out for the show, the quality of fighters on the show would visibly increase.
I think someone will try and set up a large scale amateur MMA system in the next few years. With that I think the talent pool would expand.
You’re right about people trying out too early. I recall contestants with 0-0 records at one point. The thing is, I really question the quality of the training one receives at TUF. It only goes on for like six weeks, you fight like 2 or three times if you’re lucky, and then you’re thrown into the big show. I just don’t think that’s enough to succeed.
I love me some Sexyama!
The thing is, I really question the quality of the training one receives at TUF
It’s really more about the training they get AFTER the show than it is about the training they get on the show. A lot of the guys coming from small local gyms make the contacts on TUF to join more successful pro gyms. A perfect example would be guys like Rashad Evans and Josh Koscheck. Those guys might not have ever found their way to their current gyms without the contacts they made on TUF.
I would assume to opposite of White's opinion
If the economic times were good there would be more people willing to leave their job for a while to tryout. If they make it on the show they pretty much guarantee that they won’t have their old job back if they don’t win or get a runner-up contract.
I think if White really wants to build the sport to be running with the big 3 he needs to get Zuffa to invest in local promotion groups to build a solid “minor” league. Get UFC or Zuffa sponsored local events or supplement payouts for key local fight promotions.
It takes a certain type of person to be willing to get into a ring and actually fight for money whether its MMA, boxing, or any combat sport. I think their rate of growth is not sustainable with the rate of actual talent. Right now MMA seems to be grabbing every decorated wrestler they can convince to cross over the line from just grappling to actually fighting.
I really like the whole "fight to get into the house"
But I don’t think it should necessarily be, if you win you’re in. Too many times both fighters performed badly and just cause one guy won, he gets on the show. It should be based on performance, not the ‘W’. I know it sounds weird, but I think if two guys go out there and lay and pant all over each other for 2 rounds neither deserve to be in there. But if 2 guys go out there and fight and show some skill and desire why not bring both of them in? I think not guaranteeing guys an in just for winning would put a little fire under their nuts.
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by funnytiger on Oct 30, 2009 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
That is a great idea…oftentimes you’ll see two good fighters, only one can get in with W…so you have a talented guy out. Then two mediocre to just plain awful fighters go at it, and the winner wouldn’t stand a chance against the loser of the first match.
Welcome to the Machida Error.
by slapjaw ackrite on Oct 31, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
UFC = Limited Options
While UFC is the premiere MMA organizations, they don’t offer as many opportunities for a young prospects. Not to mention some of their stifling business practices that place the UFC brand above all else.
If I was a young fighter and I had a choice between fighting for the UFC or building a career and my own personal brand fighting for smaller organizations, possibly StrikeForce AND Dream on the international stage then I wouldn’t hesitate to try to make a name for myself outside of the UFC.
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While the UFC has been aggressively expanding its roster…
Were there not several stories within this last year of how the UFC was cutting back its stable?
I'm talking the longer term trend
thinking in a 5 year window.
Each year the UFC has to trim fat, but the overall growth curve is dramatic
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Maybe we’re speaking differently of growth.
What I’m speaking of is the UFC specifically keeping less fighters under contract, as spoken of in these articles:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/mma/2008/04/29/ufc_doerksen/#
http://mmablips.dailyradar.com/story/no_longer_with_the_ufc_marcus_aurelio_set_to_main/
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/3/31/816076/13-fights-at-ufc-99-new-tr
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/14/759527/nate-mohr-cut
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/6/2/543946/hermes-franca-v-frank-edga
What were you saying? As I don’t think I’m understanding
He’s saying that there are shitload more guys on the roster now than there were in 2005. Plus, with the rumored absorption of the WEC and the much talked about increase in the number of events to accommodate Dana’s mystery TV deal, it looks the roster is primed for another expansion.
/\
this.
I’m saying that the UFC has a much larger number of fighters under contract now than they did in 2005 and a much larger number than they had in 2000 — by a factor of 10.
Each year of growth they have trimmed fat from their roster by cutting fighters because they “have too many under contract” but at the end of each year, even after the cuts, they have more under contract than they had at the end of the previous year.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The UFC needs to buy up small promotions
They need to use their profits to fund smaller promotions to do more shows. Its important that there are several minor leagues that can give a lot of fighters a place to go.
I know of several fighters within a few hour drive from me that could beat a lot of the guy’s on this season of TUF. The show is what it is: a vehicle for a few prospects to be showcased along with a lot of characters. Most seasons recently have had a few legit talents in the house and 12 or 13 guys on the show because of how the TV folks think they’ll be perceived on the show.
TUF 11: Middleweights
Unfortunately for many fighters, many who traveled thousands of miles and spent thousands of dollars, their hard work, time, and money were spent in vain. As they did with The Ultimate Fighter 10, the UFC will only be using one weight class for TUF 11, middleweights.
For the light heavyweight fighters that made it all the way to the final interview, their hopes and dreams were shot down. According to multiple LHW hopefuls, they were told that TUF 11 will feature only middleweights, but to keep trying.
from promma.info
Cast Bobby Southworth as a MW and bring Koscheck back to berate Southworth into making weight and I will watch.
HeadKickLegend.com
by Fraser Coffeen on Oct 30, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Signed and rec'd
“Do you want to be a fucking fighter!?!?!?!?”
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 30, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
DAMN
Thats twice in a row that the UFC has had tryouts for LHW’s, some made it to the finals, and then they shot that weight class down. Feel sorry for those guys.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 30, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
they probably wanted to see LHWs that could possibly cut to MW too.
instead of MWs that are better for WW.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 30, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
but yeah you're right.
It sucks for those true LHWs that spent a lot of money so they could be at the tryouts.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 30, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
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