The Tired, Poor, Huddled Masses That Are Professional MMA Fighters
by Luke Thomas on Oct 28, 2009 5:52 PM EDT
in News
121 comments
Most casual and even a decent chunk of hardcore fans are completely unaware or pitifully unsympathetic to the plight of poverty so many professional grapplers and MMA fighters deal with as part of their routine lives.
Pat Barry, fortunately the winner of his bout against Antoni Hardonk at UFC 104 as well as two additional performance bonuses, nevertheless came into the fight with little more than the clothes on his back and just enough food to not starve. Literally:
FiveKnuckles.com: You were very emotional in your post-fight interview. Can you expand on that a little bit?
Pat Barry: Hey man, I showed up to this fight broke. When we got to Los Angeles on Tuesday, I had ZERO dollars to my LIFE. I'm not even joking around. I had nothing sitting in the bank, nothing under the mattress at home, not even a piggy bank; nothing at all. Two days before we got to LA, I was literally eating white rice and ketchup. I didn't want to say anything because I didn't want anybody to worry or figure I was taking this fight for the money because I really wanted to fight. Financially I had nothing. I had no choice but to win.
The callous among us will respond with the perennially off-the-mark and banal "but fighters and grapplers choose this lifestyle. They accepted the risk that's inherent in trying to become a successful professional". This is true, of course, but hardly the issue.
The reality is that every fighter or grappler who dreams of success has to believe they are capable of it. And if they believe they are capable of that degree of success, they have to push themselves to obtain it. We all know mathematically that only a handful will ever reap any sort of financial reward, but none of us going into the process know for certain who that will be. Eventually these competitors must face the grim reality that high-level, financially secure futures from fighting are not in the cards. Eventually most fighters and grapplers have to wrestle with this cold reality.
But it's easier to describe this process than it is to be human and gut through it. Not only is there the ultimate sense of failure and a question about one's true identity after dreams are deferred, but there is the outrageously difficult, poverty-stricken lifestyle that virtually all fighters must endure to move the needle of their career even beyond the outset. That some eventually fall victim to it is not something we can shrug off as prosaic simply because exceptionally daring men and women chose to accept the risk so willingly. In fact, it only reinforces my point. There's a hell of a risk involved with this pursuit and that risk should carry some measure of respect and humanity from us.
Part of being a responsible member of the MMA community lies in understanding the application of humanity, be it in stoppages, fight regulation or acknowledging suffering. What I often find so strange among the community are those that seem outraged on slightly late stoppages, but cruelly avoid ever acknowleding the toll the fight world takes on the vast majority of its competitors. There isn't only a selectively applied bias in that situation, there's also a selfishness underpinning the entire outlook.
The fight game machine is cruel to but a few and one cannot lay claim to the spoils of war without also acknowledging the costs that came with it.
Others can continue to turn a blind eye towards fighters daring to be human and fulfill a dream or a hope. I chose to forgive them for being human.
6 recs |
121 comments
| Add comment
|
Email
Print
Comments
happy for barry to get all that bonus cash.
but for everyone like him that pick up the big bonus, there are 1,000 who will never get that kind of payday but need it just as much.
www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology
by GregS123 on Oct 28, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Economists call industries like MMA (and pro sports in general) “glamour industries”. Basically, the demand for workers is WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY smaller than the number of people who want to do that job for a living. Specifically, people demand to see the best of the best but not much after that. Lots and lots of people want to be a pro baseball player, or fighter, or skateboarder. But there’s only so much demand (for those at the top) and so only a couple hundred people are really able to do it. What this means is that the super famous athletes are paid extraordinarily well, but the lower tier athletes get crap. Why? Because there are tens of thousands of other lower tier athletes who are dying to get a shot to be an MMA fighter/NBA pro/etc. It’s just the way the market economy works in this instance.
Another example industry like this is acting. The public only demands so much acting talent, and generally they want to see the best acting talent. But tons of kids want to be actors/actresses. So you get the very top actors making bank and tens of thousands of broke actors in LA waiting tables.
Jeremiah Johnson
Contributor
FightMatrix.com
by Jeremiah Johnson. on Nov 4, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The sad reality is..
We see the payouts for shows and think “oh man, that is the life.”
Then you take into account paying for your training camp, paying your management, taxes on your payout, if anybody additional travels with you paying for them. Your average fighter getting paid $30,000 will walk away with maybe $8,000 if they are lucky.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 28, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think ufc pays for travel and food for 2 cornermen. maybe only 1… someone here will know.
i think your point is still valid but maybe not always quite as bad as ending up with 8 out of 30?
www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology
by GregS123 on Oct 28, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They pay for two
But credential up to four. Think about it this way, 30k, taxes will take I’m guessing around 20%. Most competant managers make between 5 and 10%. Training camps can cost a lot, Rampage made a claim that his training camps cost him around 65k, but he is Rampage.
Let’s say you live in Michigan and travel to Iowa to train, you have to pay for a place to stay, food, travel as well as whatever the gym charges you.
I feel like when all is said and done 8 is probably a decent figure. Now, take into account the amount of work that goes into each fight and how many fights a fighter gets a year.
If you are offered 3 fights and walk away for the year with 24k, well, you might as well be a Wal*Mart employee.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 28, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, because you already took taxes out of the fighters pay and not the walmart employee. Also you are talking work expenses. I wish I could write off my commute and lunch.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
traveling across the globe, competing in front of thousands of people – millions more considering television cameras, people clamoring to see you during an event, opportunities to be on tv shows, magazines etc, all leading up to a potential huge paycheck… all that is the equivalent of earning 24k a year at Wal-Mart???
seriously, dude, that’s complete B.S.
by chucharro on Oct 28, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think too many Walmart employees get paid to wear a Condom Depot sign on their arse either.
by brad23 on Oct 28, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, fine..
A Wal*Mart department manager then.
You are missing my point with the being on TV and travelling stuff. Does being a fighter provide a different life experience? Absolutely. Nobody can argue that.
I’m talking about compensation from the employer. I think it is pretty clear to a lot of people that most fighters get by from sponsorships on top of the fight purse.
Am I the only one that finds it kind of sad that a guy like Josh Koscheck keeps taking short notice fights and lives in a room above a gym? Josh Koscheck is a guy who has had a lot of TV time and is somewhat notable, should there be egg on his face that I’m just a dude (trust me, I don’t work at Wal*Mart) and I probably live as comfortably if not more so than he does?
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 28, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fairly certain that Kos does this by choice and not because he’s struggling for income.
by rabrown on Oct 28, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Kos is nuts, actually
I don’t think he really thinks too far ahead.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 28, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t he a starving amateur wrestling coach before he got into MMA too?
by who me on Oct 28, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest 24k after taxes isn’t that bad in this economy, the median household income in the US is hovering around $50k right now so a decent drawing fighter with a working wife can be getting up to over what half the families in the US live on. Of course that number really sucks whatever your career of choice is too. Things are tough all over but at this level it’s not really any worse a situation than the rest of us are in.
The fighters that have it bad aren’t the ones grossing 30k a fight it’s the one’s grossing less than 20k a fight because when it’s all said and done they are losing money being involved in the sport. When your net income comes out to $0 (or less) then you have it rough. Look at Pat Berry’s payout for this fight, of his $135k payday $120k came from the two bonuses, he was fighting 7k/7k. That’s not making a living it’s playing the lottery with your future(and for him he won it). Those guys know what they are getting in to when they start and they know the money will be bad until they prove themselves (and for the vast majority of them that will never happen). I don’t think we should be passing out the donation cup for them but we should really respect the fact of what these guys are going through in order to chase that dream. It’s a rare person who would work so hard and sacrifice so much just to get a small chance at making it in the sport one day.
by who me on Oct 28, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
65k for Rampage’s training camp and he claims that he never saw leg kicks like the ones forrest threw.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Oct 28, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leg kicks were an extra $15K
He took the discount.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blame Ibarra!
I know Rampage does!
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 28, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s probably not far off in some cases, but I’d be interested to see some figures backing that up.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 28, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are other streams of income that I would like to see included like sponsorships and appearance fees and fees for being a training partner. But all of this makes guys like Carwin look smart for keeping his day job. Remember that when he loses and you hear people say he needs to train full time.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$8,000 for 8 weeks of work(average training camp I hear most fighters talk about is around 2 months of serious training) is pretty good, IMO… They might not all get the big money, but, thats more than I make per week, plus, Shane Carwin shows us that its entirely possible for these guys to have full-time jobs as well as a fight career.. Plus, add up all the sponsor money (if we are talking UFC, Strikeforce etc. fighters) and they make out exceptionally well, most of the time… I may be a cold-hearted bastard, but, unlike Pat Barry who can make $100,000 in 10 minutes, I can only hope to achieve that by winning the lottery – guess whose odds are better?
by chucharro on Oct 28, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But 30K is upper end. And this paid comes after the risk of injury during the previous two month training camp. injury = you get zero hundred dollars.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry earned those 100K during his training, not during the 10min the fight took. Saying that he earned them just for fighting ten minutes implies Joe Blow could go into the cage with zero training and rake in 100K.
by lhasafi on Oct 28, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is hardly implied, sir… my point is regarding the full-time MMA fighter and his earnings, not Joe Blow, as you say, stepping in to the ring
by chucharro on Oct 28, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what the hell does 100K in 10 minutes imply? He trains for two months. He is a contractor.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shane Carwin shows us that its entirely possible for these guys to have full-time jobs as well as a fight career
Carwin is the exception that proves the rule
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know someone who loves you right now.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
then give half of that to your ex wife. haha
by ryanwk628 on Oct 28, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Randy..
Dude has a few of those!
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 28, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every time I look at the fighter salaries for an UFC event, it’s the undercard fighters that always make me stop and think. They are most definitely not raking in the big bucks. On top of that, this is the UFC, the king pin, the top dog, we’re talking about. The fighters who are still dreaming about once getting there are really up against it. We all remember Forrest’s story about fighting for very little money before he became famous. With salaries like those, I’d be quite ready to bet that some of them end up wearing their bodies down before ever getting a glimpse of becoming a professional.
It’s easy to get blinded by the lesnars, liddells, jacksons, coutures, penns, stpierres who get all the glam, all the attention and large salaries on top of it. However, who of us would buy a PPV without an undercard? Who would pay as much as we pay now for seeing only Lesnar-Carwin? None, I suppose. Many of the undercard fighters can’t work a full-time job because of the training demands and I think we all can guess what would happen if they went and fought at a local event just for the money…
In just about every PPV there is at least one fighter who makes four figures. He’ll be lucky not to be eating rice and ketchup for quite a while before his next fight purse comes along.
These guys fight because they want to and because they are good at it. However, would it really be a crime if they were paid enough?
by lhasafi on Oct 28, 2009 3:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Everything in life takes time to build up to, those guys jerking the curtain at a UFC event aren’t there to make money they are there to impress someone enough so they can get a chance to make money at this one day, those are like giant job interviews. That’s the thing when you say enough I have to wonder “by whose standards?” I think we all probably deserve a raise from our respective jobs (or at least think we do) but that in itself doesn’t mean the employer is the bad guy, the question is a lot more complicated than that.
by who me on Oct 28, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i had to sell my car 2 weeks ago because i couldn’t afford the repairs needed to keep it running. no one is writing an article for me; because i should “get a second job”, or “thats life”. just because a guy is chasing his dream doesnt mean he should have automatically make a comfortable living. sometimes people just dont have money in all walks of life.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A side note: Don’t ever put more money in a car than it’s worth.
And car auctions are your friend.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was the perfect car. ’92 Nissan 240SX with a peice of crap body, but an engine with only 30K miles on it, but the alternator, battery, and belts went in one day. didnt have the $485 to fix it, so off it went.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know that anybody is asking people to pity these fighters, or throw charity there way. All people are really asking for is a little bit of human understanding. Fighting is a difficult way of life, and as a fight fan it is only right to acknowledge it.
by hlebtasic on Oct 28, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there is one sole reason why some people scoff at this stuff.
They have been in dire situations like that before, and nobody highlighted their triumph after the fact. I understand that to an extent, but I never expected anyone to pat me on the back when I was in the dire straits of financial ruin.
I watch countless people do stupid shit daily in terms of being fired or laid off, and simply being unwilling to do ANYTHING to put food on the table. I, on the other hand, worked three jobs at one point, did all sorts of odd jobs here and there to make ends meet in college and pay my tuition, all sorts of shit… and I don’t give a shit about someone patting me on the back. People need to quit getting all pissed off about these posts.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 28, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
The fact of the matter is you would never ask for recognition and that is commendable, but if you were in a position of celebrity you would receive it.
by hlebtasic on Oct 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am certainly not belittling any fighter who struggles for their dream. all i’m saying, is rather than the articles are done on the stories that pull on our heart string for the fighters, what about articles that blast the peices of crap “hard core fans” that dont drop a dime into a single UFC or MMA related product that would put money in these fighters pockets.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
let me state that again in bold
what about articles that blast the peices of crap "hard core fans" that dont drop a dime into a single UFC or MMA related product that would put money in these fighters pockets.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because bold automatically makes it easier to understand
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 28, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ie guy who watches all his PPVs for “free” through various sites.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's an excellent topic for a fanpost
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
would love to, but i’m no writer. lots of dyslexia makes my points make sense to me, but no one else :D
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Writing is easy. You just stare at a blank sheet of paper until drops of blood form on your forehead.
by nottheface on Oct 28, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Writing is more thinking
I’m betting with your passion for the sport, you’d be good. You just might want to dictate it to someone else. As I tell my students, 90% of the hard work in writing is over after you’ve organized your thoughts. After that, it’s just writing sentences.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 28, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey i wrote one! lol, read and reread it, i think i made sense.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 28, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that. It always pisses me off when people brag about the stream they have during a pay per view. Its like going into a record store and talking to the guy behind the counter about bittorents. I think this article is fine, and I see no problem in reminding the fans about how hard it really is to be a fighter. It was, however a little dramatic.
by hlebtasic on Oct 28, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Part of being a responsible member of the MMA community lies in understanding the application of humanity, be it in stoppages, fight regulation or acknowledging suffering. What I often find so strange among the community are those that seem outraged on slightly late stoppages, but cruelly avoid ever acknowleding the toll the fight world takes on the vast majority of its competitors. There isn’t only a selectively applied bias in that situation, there’s also a selfishness underpinning the entire outlook.
A-fucking-greed.
This is one of the things I find strange as well. We argue one week about how all these guys are getting pummeled, hurt, late stoppages, then the next discuss how 5 round non-title fights should happen, and then move to how another stoppage was way too early even though someone took unanswered shots to the dome in brutal fashion… but hey, he looked alive.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 28, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I sometimes wonder about the guys that fight regularly at a high level and get paid 20-30 per fight, or even less, can do it?
The other thing I’m reminded of is the slim chance of error. If you mess up and lose, for a lot of fighters, your goose is completely cooked. I can’t think of any more ruthless sport for which you can sacrifice your entire life to get there, and then watch the entire thing flush down in 5 minutes.
But I’m a little confused at the last paragraph, which seems a little self-righteous to me. I mean, I don’t like late stoppages, and I’m not always touting about the plight of fighters, does that make me cruel? I think your diction got a little out of hand, but I could be mis-reading. How do you expect fans to acknowledge the suffering aspect of this? I mean, for sure Barry suffered, but he’s also living his dream. Training and feeling the well-being and satisfaction of sacrificing to do what he loves. I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve respect (which I have for all fighters) but what do you expect the average fan to do, other than be aware of it?
by Dooda on Oct 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, bullriders only get 8 seconds
Just sayin’.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 28, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn I love Barry and I was very happy to see him win. I’m glad he’s now got enough money to concentrate on improving, because he’s a phenomenal striker and could be a big time fan favorite before long. Good for him…
by Blackout612
by Nick Thomas on Oct 28, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but fighters and grapplers choose this lifestyle
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
by WeaponElDeem on Oct 28, 2009 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd
Even if it was a little dramatic its true and needs to be highlighted.
by hlebtasic on Oct 28, 2009 3:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The callous among us will respond with the perennially off-the-mark and banal “but fighters and grapplers choose this lifestyle. They accepted the risk that’s inherent in trying to become a successful professional”. This is true, of course, but hardly the issue.
This entry seems pretty aggressive. Not a single person in the thread you’re seemingly referencing said they don’t care if fighters are broke, but it remains the truth that they do choose the path they travel in a much more deliberate way than some less fortunate people. It saddens me that Barry was at this point, but brings me great joy to know that he was successful and now has the money to take care of himself and settle his mind. The dissenting views in that thread universally wished for fighters to continually reap greater rewards/purses and I’m unaware of any forum members saying “tough luck, get a real job”. I think most people honestly want to see others do well and I prefer to concentrate on the positive in this story than the negative. Barry’s emotional post-fight interview and this ensuing story is very humanizing and I hope more people catch wind of it.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This part reminded me of an old member…forgot his name, he got banned after an “altercation” with kid nate.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 28, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subo
That part reminded me of his usual rant.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 28, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean, writer for Fightlinker now?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 28, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, I just know him as Subo, I don’t read fightlinker.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 28, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whaaaaaaat? I haven’t been over to Fightlinker in so long…
Kind of fitting place for him I suppose.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Oct 28, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
What’s with this sudden misrepresentation of his views? He never held the viewpoint that’s being suggested..
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anyone suggested he viewed any one way. It was the rant style I think.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Following the thread down
Subo
That part reminded me of his usual rant.
What does that have to do with anything?
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really looks like you’ve misunderstood me. It’s nothing more than what I said. The part you quote reminds me of this guy that’s not here anymore, and he surely would love that post. You could call it nostalgia, but well, I wouldn’t go that far.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 28, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, I remember this from a discussion on fighters & unions. It’s kinda old.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 28, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he just meant
…that it’s fitting that Subo writes some place with a sense of humor.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 28, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just went there, to look for subo, didn’t find him, but I found this.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 28, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sweet, eh?
Actually, he writes more serious stuff over there from what I’ve seen. Still that same subo “charm” that we’ve all grown to love/ban though. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 28, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is what Subo is up to now:
JackalRadio
Some gems in there.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Oct 28, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An hour of listening to Subo
You gotta be fucking kidding me! The tolerance on Subo’s posts had an over/under of 1.5 and that was without his bitchy, condescending, UFC drum beating voice.
He was fun. Over the top, but fun.
by bignerd on Oct 28, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on guys! The UFC treats its fighters great and they are all rich. Who are you kidding?
No that is not the case but reading some comments when you talk about labor agreements, fighter salaries and what not on this site you would think so. How can the lower level guys compete with a top fighter who can afford great trainers, strength coaches, nutritionists cooking their meals, flying in sparing partners… etc? A lot of up and coming guys have jobs besides fighting. Its even worse in the WEC.
Bottom line, once they get into the UFC they should be paid enough to to this full time.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 28, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If every fighter could
hold a main event PPV on his own , then sure. Not all fighters/employees are created equal. those who excel and produce get paid more. Its how business works. I believe some fighters lose their edge when they are not counting on the win bonus.
Life isn’t fair. Strippers make more than teacher, police, fireman that is life. we all make our own choices, walk our own paths and live our own lives. Once you sign with the UFC I think the work actually begins. Its time to step up and PROVE you are worth signing to a bigger deal. But I have always been self employed so my demands might be a little strong for this PC society.
by Riney on Oct 28, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand where youre coming from. Was engineering the easiest major in school? No. But Im glad I did it. However every sports league has a minimum salary. The guys who have been signed by the UFC have paid their dues getting there and deserve 30-40 a year to live on and train full time. Especially now that the UFC has restricted sponsors and charge a sponsorship fee… cutting off a source of revenue that the lower tier fighters used to live on.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 28, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree about the sponsorship dollars. The sponsor revenues need to be divided among the fighters fairly. Main and co main fighters get A% while PPv fights get B% and under cards get C%.
I still think an annual salary is a bad idea. Some fighters are more active, some get hurt and 8 weeks of training isn’t an awful long time. That means 10 months a year of doing nothing, I don’t see that as acceptable.
by Riney on Oct 28, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true about camps, but in most major sports the athletes are training year round. Do we not want MMA to be a major sport?
by ryanwk628 on Oct 28, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The idea behind charging the fee is that before they were providing free advertising and got nothing in return. Is it shitty? Yep. Does it make sense on the business end? You bet.
by thisredengine on Oct 28, 2009 7:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
That's right, the fighters are rolling in money
I spent a year on here reading about how much money these guys are making in sponsorship deals. Not to mention all those undisclosed bonuses Dana is handing out like candy backstage.
Yet, the lack of better wages and salary is mostly the fault of the fighters. They’re dumber than a group of strippers when dealing with the club owner. Each thinks if they give management a couple lap dances in the back they will be treated special and taken care of. After getting used and abused the UFC promptly tosses them back to the street and the new girl proudly takes the seat underneath the desk. You’d think they would understand hundreds of years of labor history and figure out that strategy isn’t profitable.
Not trying to pick on UFC either. They are certainly the one organization who can change the wage scale problem but all promotions abuse it. They are making a lot of money on their fighter’s ignorance towards banding together on labor issues, so why would they change it? Yet, an argument could be made that the UFC would benefit more in the talent recruitment department if they brought the bottom wage scale up to the standard of living. More young, athletic prospects might take up MMA instead of football giving them a larger talent pool to grow and promote.
by bignerd on Oct 28, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the better articles I’ve read in a long time.
by SlickRick00 on Oct 28, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Many fighters remember the days when they fought for $500 here $200 there. Many fighters make less than $10,000 a fight.
Don’t let boxing fool you, many boxers are not enjoying big paydays unless they’re fighting big names like De La Hoya (retired), Mayweather, Hatton, Pavlik, Jones, etc.
Fighters don’t really hit big paydays until they fought for many years.
Check out my recent MMA drawings on my blog, drop a comment, or subscribe via RSS for updates http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog/?tag=mma
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 28, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True, but the up and coming guys are independent and usually have other jobs. Once you make it into the UFC youre expected to be a full time fighter. You cant go to another promotion for more money because of the UFC contract/being the only game in town, so good luck negotiating your contract or holding out like NFL guys do. Now the sponsor dollars these lower tier guys live off has been cut by Dana White’s fees, the black list and the ecconomy.
Being a fighter is a hard life, but with the money the UFC is bringing in, their guys shouldnt be worrying about where their next meal is coming from.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 28, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UFC fighters can and do have other jobs.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But… we hold UFC fighters to a higher standard. They are expected to be prepared, have the best training and be entirely focused on the fight. This is a multi million dollar business that is trying to position itself up there with mainstream sports. If that is ever to happen, the fighters on the UFC roster should be full time fighters just like athletes in the NBA or MLB… especially if we ever want to see those type athletes in MMA. Lets be honest, there are hundreds of guys like Brock Lesnar out there… they are in the NFL and NBA.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 28, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We do hold UFC fighters to a higher standard than the competition, sure, but I don’t think we all expect them to fight fulltime, at least not when they’re starting out. I think Carwin still works as an engineer despite his success, cause he knows how fickle this fight game is. At some point, people have to take responsibility for their financial situation. It would be folly to expect to train fulltime just because you have a fight or two in the UFC.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 28, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carwin also has a boss that allows him a P/T schedule
I wonder how many others would find employers so flexible.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 28, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he works for local government. At least I think I am right on this.
by szucconi on Oct 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the WEC stars are seriously under-paid.
The UFC kills some sponsorship opportunity with many strong hand policies.
There are some guys in the UFC that are not happy with only being able to fight 3 times a year or limit the fights that they can take. There are fighters that would like to fight in Japan, Europe and America because it gives them better exposure and opportunities to make money. In the UFC, you’re lucky if you get to fight 3-times a year. This really applies to the younger fighters that are more durable and recover quickly from injuries.
Check out my recent MMA drawings on my blog, drop a comment, or subscribe via RSS for updates http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog/?tag=mma
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 28, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is getting onto a couple of undercards isn’t really making it into the UFC, those guys come and go all the time, it’s not till that first real long term contract that you would consider a guy actually in, the rest is more like a long drawn out interview process. Guys on that level are going to get low pay regardless of what the industry structure is because they are at the bottom fighting for a position on the roster. Hundreds of guys get into pro ball sport training camps every year and they work their asses off for months only to get cut before the season starts, you aren’t actually in until you fight your way onto the roster. It’s that next tier up where the living wage issue for a full time fighter would come into play.
by who me on Oct 28, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luke Thomas - Great Post!
Check out my recent MMA drawings on my blog, drop a comment, or subscribe via RSS for updates http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog/?tag=mma
by VeeisAnimated on Oct 28, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Quite a few fighters work part time or full time jobs as well especially at the lower levels of the sport. The UFC in general is an anomaly in contrast.
This post is a good catalyst for discussion on how the sport has not reached “that level” yet. Then again perhaps it’s a catalyst for discussion on how all sports have disparaging financial returns outside of the top level of competition.
All in all, great post by Mr. T.
Also unrelated by by far my favorite quote from Pat Barry’s interview: Re: his backflip post-fight.
“They obviously didn’t know a water buffalo can fly. I’m a straight up ninja; I’ve been saying it from day one.”
by DirtyML on Oct 28, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how much he got paid for holding that drink in his left hand?
or is that just ab bottle of water?
Pay that man Dasani!
by Td9d on Oct 28, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fitting...
that his Tapout shirt says “Fight to Survive”
by WestbergIDFC on Oct 28, 2009 4:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am very happy for Barry and I really hope he has some nice success going forward. He’s got some nice standup that can take him far. Honestly, I don’t really know much about Barry’s personal situation beyond what was expressed after his fight on Saturday night. I don’t know why he was in the position he was in, whether it was bad luck or poor financial management, etc. While I can sympathize with him, I don’t have any more or less sympathy for a fighter’s financial situation than I do the average joe out there who is broke or is struggling through the recession. Life can be harsh and cruel, but we all have to take responsibility to a certain extent. I’m not saying Barry isn’t taking responsibility for how he became broke; what I’m saying is hopefully going foward, Barry can manage his money better so he’s not in that situation again.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 28, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I acknowledge the struggle and hardship it takes to become a professional athlete but my empathy for them only goes so far. They are professional athletes, they are paid to entertain. If I had a bleeding heart for every sad story, I will lose interest in the sport because I will have invested emotionally too much in the sport rather than taking it for face value and losing sight of what made the sport attractive.
by lateralus08 on Oct 28, 2009 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And the high horse you rode in on
Okay, that’s way too aggressive for what I have to say. I find it interesting how in many different career paths there are individuals able to swing from being near rock-bottom to hitting a homerun in short order. Its a heartwarming story if its an MMA fighter or a stock broker like in the Pursuit of Happiness. When someone is passionate about an area of their life and can find a way for that area of their life to provide them a substantial income it is damn near a Hallmark Movie Afternoon Special staring Tony Danaza.
I’m happy for Barry to get the cash, the publicity, as well as the sympathy and admiration that come with his performance and the back story. Its the American Dream. And I think it is worth recognizing that the brutal nature of the sport which sometimes require its fans to seperate the sport (the athletic competiion, what enetertains us) and the men performing in the cage (who draw our sympathy for the physical and mental pain they endure) so that it can be enthusiastically enjoyed can also have fans who lose sight of the individuals performing. Its easier to set aside your sympathy and just enjoy the brutal ballet that is MMA. However, ending with “But I choose to forgive them for being human” turns me off to the entire argument, which as you can tell I mostly agree with.
The reason for all the, “but I came back to and nobody made my story into a movie of the week” responses come from the implication that if you don’t feel sympathy for Barry and other fighters in his situation you are a lesser person, or at very least an irresponsible member of the MMA community. Ofte times those who rise up from a rock-bottom type of situation feel empathy, but not sympathy for someone else who rises up from their own situation. Such a person doesn’t care to be told they are a lesser person if they don’t feel sympathy for a highlighted individual. It isn’t because they are a lesser person, but instead they simply have different experiences.
All I’m saying is the point is better made from ground level.
by pwrcartel on Oct 28, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
once a mma fighter can get sponsers to pay them like other athletes this could get a bit beter??? I hope.
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 28, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I understand the point
I mean, I support the fighters I like (talk to my wife about my ongoing t-shirt addiction) in the ways that I can, but in a very real sense, this is what we and they should expect. MMA is still in its infancy, and even today, these folks are pioneers of the sport. How long was professional baseball around before the players didn’t have full time jobs? Football?
This is what happens to pioneers: they struggle right at the edge of starvation in the hopes of making something better for themselves and the people following behind them. (Or they die of dysentery. Or break an axle. Whatever.)
What I want to know, dear leader Luke, is what WE the fans should do about this?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 28, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And this is why I have a nice safe boring job instead of one I… you know… like.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 28, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Personally, I went for the job I like and ate a shit ton of ramen (top ramen, mind you) before I got where I was going. That’s more rice-with-ketchup than dysentery, but I knew what I was getting into.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh..
Creative Services. I own my own company now, but it’s tough going for most people at entry level. Starving artists for a digital age..
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, a tough field to get started in. Even tougher field to remain profitable in the long run, takes a lot work. I work with people and companies in your profession all the time.
by bignerd on Oct 28, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, there you go.
We all optimize, whether we realize what we’re doing or not.
Fighters are optimizing for freedom and enjoyment. I optimized for stability and security. You (I’m guessing) optimized for opportunities to have your junk tasered by weasels. Everybody gets what they want.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 28, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I went for the job I like and ate a shit ton of ramen (top ramen, mind you) before I got where I was going. That’s more rice-with-ketchup than dysentery, but I knew what I was getting into.
I forgive you for daring to be human. Whatever that means.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 29, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking the same thing – the point seems kind of trivial, which leads me to suspect that there’s something going on downstairs. But what, exactly? I don’t get it. Or at least I hope so.
by ununkvadrium on Oct 28, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd guess Luke was going to announce that BE would be sponsoring fighters
…but I don’t think they’re turning that kind of profit…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Oct 29, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luke, this is really well written article. Kinda some cool prose and a very thought provoking topic. It inspired some very un-trollish responses. More please.
by Headkick on Oct 28, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Its amazing
A story such as this gets very little news or sympathy. But todays headline at NBA.com of Antione Walker blowing through 110 million in 12 years and being nearly 15 million in debt gets all kinds of press, and sympathy!.
by SimplePsych on Oct 28, 2009 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The sad truth is;
For many people, no amount of money is ever enough.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 28, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MMA gets very little media attention as it is.
Who’s going to run a press story about a guy who is broke before a fight, fighting to survive?
If that was the case, there would be one for a different boxer every week….
by MickDawg on Oct 29, 2009 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or how about the lowest paid Yankee
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ge-coke102709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Only a measly $403,300 for his rookie year.
by SanDiegoMMA.net on Oct 28, 2009 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And it only took pro baseball a couple hundred years to get to that level. Hell it’s only been within my lifetime that the NFL has gotten it’s pay level beyond guys having to work off season jobs. Five years ago the UFC’s payouts looked worse than the WEC’s payouts now, these things do take time but it is getting better.
by who me on Oct 28, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s funny…funny Barry doesn’t look like a ‘starving’ kid. He’s a heavyweight…I don’t think he’s having trouble keeping the weight on so I think that statement that he’s completely broke is probably a bit exaggerated. He’s probably not smart with his money either…for that I think there are people out there in far worse situations.
Now he has been through some tragedy from losing relatives due to Hurricane Katrina so I completely sympathize with him on that note
Favorite Blogs:
www.spongereport.com
www.yardbarker.com
www.milehighreport.com
www.bleacherreport.com
by brohamm1978 on Oct 28, 2009 9:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of former NFL players who are struggling in retirement, because they didn’t get paid much as players and are enduring the physical fallout from years as a pro athlete. I feel for these people just like I feel for any honest, hardworking person who is having a difficult time. Those who blaze new trails often sustain injury at the hands of the rugged frontier they seek to conquer. I don’t know if it’s altogether fair or not, but the plight of pioneers has been repeated over and over again throughout history.
Most of us living free, largely comfortable existences take a lot for granted each and everyday. We meander along fretting about things which are trivial and occupying our time in pursuits that would be considered ridiculous by those just trying to obtain the basic necessities of life. Maybe, we are a bit “callous” or oblivious to the hardships of others.
The fact is, however, it’s not just about MMA. It’s a much larger affliction. I prefer to concentrate on the more far-reaching problem, because, in the end, the MMA fighter of 2009 isn’t much different from the NFL player of 1959. And of course, there are many many more regular people who struggle that literally no one ever cares about, because their particular occupation, and life, can be categorized as mundane. What’s not callous, in my view, is responding in a similar sympathetic manner to that regular person as one would a professional athlete.
by Cannon Jacques on Oct 28, 2009 9:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
20 years from now
when these fighters are facing crippling neurological and physical disorders that kill most of them before 60, we are going to look back and say “you know, maybe I shouldn’t have blindly sided with Dana on that one.”
by ryanwk628 on Oct 29, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barry is an excellent example of modern MMA. This was his third UFC bout. He has one more fight on his contract. Odds are his next contract will put him in a very different financial place, with a first bout likely around 20-25k to fight with the same to win.
Truth be told, the first couple bouts a fighter has in the UFC are really just an extension of fighting in the indy shows. Once you establish yourself, you will be fine.
Barry should start looking for a better agent. As soon as it was established that his fight would be featured on Spike, he should have taken in a fair amount in sponsorship money.
Once Barry (and others) get to the point where they are making 60K+ (not including endorsement money), they need to look at finances and taxes (most training expenses are deductable) and start making the right moves to plan for the future. MMA is a business and a sport. Companies like Zuffa and Strikeforce handle it as both, the fighters need to as well.
by Lynchman on Oct 28, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
great article. very succinct. fighters aren’t investing in a career with much after market options…..training or coaching only pays a smaller percentage of guys well than fighting does…the time that goes into being a pro…often deprives them of a career built that they could fall back on….even assuming injury doesn’t force retirement.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/
by theworldsoldestsport on Oct 29, 2009 12:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brutal
I personally feel it is hard to swallow that someone who gets signed by the UFC makes $7,000 and if they win $14,000 like Barry did. I know that UFC’s return is much higher than that. The fact is, we are not talking about typing or something, we are talking about getting beat up. I guarantee the UFC is not paying for Barry’s medical bills 10 years from now when he is working at a car dealership and has 10 concussions to pay for. Its pretty disturbing how little is taken into account for their well being. Dana and his crew should know if someone is eating rice and ketchup before a fight. They should be taking care of the minimums for these guys so they are at their best fighting ability come fight day.
by remeadial on Oct 29, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Join the community and dive in!
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
