Lyoto Machida vs. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua Decision Leads to Overblown Controversy
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT
in News
257 comments
The last few days have been surprising to say the least when it comes to the reaction stemming from Saturday evening's UFC 104 main event title bout between light heavyweights Mauricio "Shogun" Rua and Lyoto "The Dragon" Machida. We've heard accounts of the fight being scored 50-45 in favor of Rua to Anderson Silva believing it was a 50-45 win for Machida. We' ve heard angry mobs of fans and Ron Kruck claim it was a "robbery" decision while others claim that Machida simply wasn't damaged enough to be defeated because he was the champion.
There are numerous points I want to touch on, but the overall theme here is that this fight was simply a very close decision battle between two elite light heavyweights in the world today. I think that's the ultimate focus that most fans should be looking at instead of how Rua was supposedly "robbed" by the California State Athletic Commission judges.
First and foremost, Brent Brookhouse was correct in his opinion about how a fighter "must beat the champion". The judges are there for that very reason, and I haven't heard talk of the "must beat the champion" clause in an organization's bylaws since Cage Rage. Cage Rage was the only organization that made it known to challengers for the belt that they must convincingly beat the champion. If a 48-47 decision was the obvious conclusion in favor of the challenger, the champion would likely walk away with a title defense under his belt.
But there are points in Chad Dukes' assessment that I disagree with. I've watched this fight over five times now, and I'm still surprised to hear that Rua was simply way more aggressive. While he stalked Machida for most of the fight, he waited for each opportunity to counter and made Machida make the first move. Sure, positionally within the cage -- Rua was moving around and backing up Machida, but Machida was always the aggressor in the exchanges for the most part. Is this an argument to say that aggression should go to Machida? Honestly, I doubt it came into play that much in the decision process.
Other arguments revolve around Machida losing this fight 50-45. I won't say that these fans are crazy, but I would say that I didn't see the fight go down like that at all. In fact, I scored the bout 48-47 for Rua with Round 1 being possibly one of the closest rounds I've seen that I can remember. It's amazing what you find when you re-watch these bouts without commentary and by truly watching the exchanges, something the judges don't have the luxury of doing.
Rogan's commentary was easily a swaying factor for some fans. In viewing the fight a few times over, it was amazing how ignorant some of the commentary was for Machida. I can't blame Joe though. Most of the action and exchanges were simultaneous, i.e. Rua would throw a heavy leg kick while eating a solid straight jab. Rogan chose to focus on the leg kicks more than Machida's counter, and it really comes down to what he chose to talk about because at specific points in the fight -- it's fairly tough to start talking about one fighter's exchange and another fighter's exchange while more exchanges are still happening in the fight.
That isn't a huge part of this argument though, and most fans can go back and look at the fight in a more objective manner without the commentary to sway them. The casual fans who sat beside me watching this fight felt it was razor close even with Joe's commentary, so it couldn't have been that deciding to everyone.
Then there's the small group of fans who point to the Compustrike and FightMetric numbers for this fight and say "See, it was robbery". Judges don't have the luxury of counting each blow precisely. Compustrike might actually miss blows, but Rami over at FightMetric meticulously breaks down fights using slow-mo frame by frame replays and things of that nature. His number are accurate, but every method has flaws as well. We don't know what the judges thought in regards to effective grappling, aggression, and Octagon control, and we know judges don't have the means to successful count each landing strike per round. It's unreasonable to think that these methods should convey what the judges saw or act as a supporting argument. Sure, after the fight happened -- we can look at those and say it was blasphemy, but I think that's a rather unfair argument.
In the end, the fight was very close. Some of the rounds were difficult to judge, and while a lot of fans believe sitting cageside is going to help these judges determine winners accurately, it can be a deterrent as well. Nick Lembo talked with me about the views from cageside sometimes being tough for judges if the action is on the opposite side of the cage. It'd definitely be difficult to see who's landing blows with the aggressor's back to the judges, so I can understand those problems to an extent.
But even in trying to watch this fight and think... "Well, maybe the judge is on the opposite side of the cage right now...", this fight was just plain tough to call. 48-47 Rua was my scorecard for nearly every viewing of this fight, but I could probably watch this again and come to a conclusion that Round 1 was a draw.
Instead of arguing about this with all of the bashing in our community over the last few days, let's take this fight for what it's worth, a great battle between great fighters. It was close, but we're getting a rematch that should ultimately decide the real champion. In a division that has seen better days, the UFC really needs the rematch to allow some other light heavyweights to come out of the woodwork and establish themselves, and it should be another technical showdown for us to enjoy.
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even hitler agrees Shogun won that fight!
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Nice work, that was some funny, funny shit.
Great post Leland.
by bleve_ on Oct 27, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s not mine, just passing it along :P I found it hilarious.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t that mean that Machida won the fight?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Oct 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For real. Who wants to be on Hitler’s side???
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 27, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
But I can’t see how anyone can judge round 1 to be anything but Machida. Every exchange had both fighters scoring in the typical Rua leg kicks and Machida punches theme with Machida also scoring numerous unanswered knees.
I’d like to also add that these judges have a very short period of time to make their decisions that we get eternity to rake over with a fine tooth comb. Lets give them some leeway for their decision making.
I think, just like you said, this was a close fight and another supreme example of why you don’t want to let it go to the judges.
by Razreshat on Oct 27, 2009 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Round 1 was very, very close. I’ve viewed that round numerous times, but having Rogan lead you to believe it was easily Shogun’s round is a bit off putting. The Muay Thai grab and subsequent knees by Machida went completely unnoticed by the commentary team, and I even had some people tell me they didn’t even see it. It’s unfortunate, but Shogun might have squeaked that round out. It was so tough to judge it. I’d almost say it was a draw, and I’d be perfectly happy with that.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally would have gave the first three rounds to Machida! Almost every time in these rounds Shogun eat something in return for each one of his leg kicks, body kicks.
by Ilias on Oct 27, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if we go on the basis that leg kicks are worth less due to the fact that they won’t immediately end a fight… it could be scored that way.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just thought that Machida landed the cleaner strikes. However, when I first saw the fight I gave every round but the third to Shogun.
Strange fight :-)
Would be great if people would stop talking about who won or should have won the fight and start talking about how each of the fighters performed. Because I’ve only been following this sport closely for a year and I’d like to know what experts think.
Was Shogun’s performance great? Was Machida poor? Would shogun’s game plan work for other fighters? Has Machida been ‘found out’? Why did Machida come in at 202lbs? Was he too casual? Has the fame gone to his head? Ok the last couple of questions are a bi off. But there are lots of questions about this fight and we only seem to be interesting in answering one.
by Ilias on Oct 27, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am a Machida fan and I was not a Shogun fan before this fight. From the fights I have seen from both of them I believe Shogun had outstanding Gameplanning and skill and it was hard for Machida to deal with. I think Machida fought the same fight he always brings but It was just not enough for Rua’s amazing Muay Thai,great speed and tactic. As for Machida I think he is actually a “light” LHW as in he does not cut much to meet weight. I don’t think the fame went to his head, but maybe he spent more time learning to speak english and it cut into his training this time.
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
by WeaponElDeem on Oct 27, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only problem is…
When you rewatch the exchanges, most of Lyoto’s counter strikes didn’t land.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think many people gave it to Shogun simply because they were so shocked at how Machida didn’t look as invincible as he always has. I mean to anyone watching the fight, seeing Machida get hit at all was a massive shock and I think thats why many people gave it to Rua
by StevenGiles on Oct 27, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Exactly, I think that was a huge factor
by Ilias on Oct 27, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or it could be the fact that Rua got the better of most exchanges, controlled the ring, demonstrated effective aggression, neutralized Lyoto in the clinch, destroyed his stance, confused him, tired him out and took him out of his game.
You know, basically won the fight. :)
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
at the time I scored it for Rua
but looking back I’d give Machida the first round.
Live blogging and trying to score a fight is a bitch. You’re looking down a ton and definitely relying on the commenters.
I also think there is a gestalt effect in play — if you were watching Shogun, you saw the leg kicks. If you were watching Machida, you saw his shots. Was very hard to see both.
I was reacting to Shogun controlling the footwork and stalking Machida and yet forcing Machida to initiate so he could counter. An absolutely brilliant strategy to beat Machida. One I predict every opponent will attempt to duplicate going forward.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 27, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what's your final score
after second viewing?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
still think Rua won it
but I’d give Machida the 2nd and maybe the first.
Could easily see someone scoring it 3 rounds for Machida and 2 for Rua.
It’s really a problem with the ten point must system IMO.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 27, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I sympathize with this, Nate.
Liveblogging and trying to score is a major bitch. Major.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...yep
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something I have been trying to work out was who was countering who…most of the exchanges to me it looked like the standard Machida simultaneously countering the leg kick with the straight left or right depending on his stance. I remember a few times where Shogun would brutally counter a Machida leg kick with one of his own, and it was obviously a counter.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only problem is…
When you rewatch the exchanges, most of Lyoto’s counter strikes didn’t land.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that they did. Shogun blocked a lot of them but a lot landed as well.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More got blocked than landed. Demonstrating effective striking while defending at the same time is pretty impressive.
I watched every exchange multiple times, hoping to see Lyoto land shots, but it just didn’t happen. Rua’s guard while he throws the leg kick is textbook, and was beautiful to watch. It’s the same way my instructor teaches, but rarely gets implemented. Most fighters swing their right hand to the side to generate power when kicking to the leg, leaving themselves open for the counter straight to the jaw, but Rua negated most of Lyoto’s counters by keeping his right hand high and bringing the left up as soon as he saw the counter coming. Awesome reflexes.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice post Leland
I’ve watched it ten times now, and it just gets less and less conclusive. I can understand the arguments on both sides, and I don’t expect people to let it go, but I’m more interested in analyzing the fight and what the adjustments and strategies will be in the rematch. It was really an amazing chess match of a fight, and as fans, we’re pretty blessed to have Shogun back to the level he showed us Saturday night. I’d love it if this becomes an epic rivalry with several fights between them. Generally when fights are that close, it’s because there’s a wide mix of ground, clinch work and standup. Amazing to see that close a standup fight, when both guys are so talented on their feet.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 27, 2009 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Article
And what I’ve tried to get my friends to understand. Its not that I didn’t think Rua won (I scored 1-3 for Machida) but that it wasn’t a robbery. I tried to look up the round by round scoring on different sites, and the scores were all over the place. Two sites gave Machida round 5. Most commented after the first 3 rounds saying it was close and could go either way yet afterward claimed it was a robbery.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
machida
got the muay thai clinch on 2 instances in rd1, i can’t understand what rogan and goldie saw that made them wonder out loud that maybe shogun won rd1
by theblade on Oct 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
While watching it here is what my thoughts were and I think a lot of people’s:
Round 1: Wow, Shogun might have done enough to win that round. I think that he probably won that round but that the judges won’t give it to him.
Round 2: Wow, Shogun is still doing really good. I think he might have won that round but there’s no way a judge would give both of these two rounds to the same guy.
Round 3: Super close, but i’d give it to machida….although the flurry of his didn’t seem to hit shogun that often and shogun stopped it and rocked him with a counter.
Round 4: Wow, Shogun won that round and has a good chance of winning that fight.
Round 5: Wow, Shogun has to win. I really think Shogun won that fight but the judges will probably screw it out of him by split decision.
When I heard a unanimous decision I thought for sure it was Shogun. It wasn’t. I think that is why people are getting pissed off, they had a similar mindset to mine.
by joseph. on Oct 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very similar to what I was thinking, but when I read through it again its very easy to see how rounds 1-3 go to Machida.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Round 2 was the most conclusive for Machida in my mind. He landed some solid straight shots that backed Shogun up. That was the only round I truly felt he won along with Round 3. Round 1 was just so hard to call.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we all agree that rounds
2 and 3 were machida rounds, that leaves the first round as the main sticking point towards justifying a W for machida
what was the most significant exchange in round 1?
imo, the knees that machida threw on 2 separate instances,
by theblade on Oct 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The knees were easily the most significant strikes in the round, but I think the debate comes down to if those were significant enough to overcome Shogun’s clinch knees and leg kicks. I think it may have, but it’s just difficult to say.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Round 1 was definitely tough. If any round could be considered a draw, that would be it.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 27, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Piece
I’ve generally avoided discussion on this, since I don’t want to get in a big comment war, but you hit on the points that I wanted to make.
Mainly,
1. Rogan was missing or not talking about a lot of Machida’s Jabs. I think Rogan has always liked leg kicks and wants fans to appreciate them so he stresses them. He also was trying to talk up Shogun early to “sell the fight”. This may have swayed some home viewers, though we must admit that the fans in attendance overwhelmingly preferred Shogun.
2. This wasn’t a robbery. Did Shogun derve to win..yes. Is there an argument to be made for Machida winning (well enough people who follow the sport pretty closely seem to think so, so I’d say yes). If a fight could go the other way in a decision then its not a “Robbery”
Clearly the accumulation of leg kicks were important in making Machida look like the beaten man late in the fight, but I wasn’t necessarily convinced in round 1 and 2 that they were more effective than Machida’s jabs.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike Easton vs. Chase Beebe was a robbery. This fight didn’t even come close to that travesty. That’s my ultimate point.
And I think you’re dead on with how Rogan views kicks. I think he’s always been a huge fan of them, and it really swayed him.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rogan is a TWD guy, he has to like kicks.
That said, as many have said here, the overwhelming feeling was that Shogun did more damage than Machida, but that’s not exactly how the ten point must system works. It was an extremely close fight, and one that surprised all of us in being that close. Like I commented on WKR this morning, the plain fact is that almost nobody expected Shogun to be this competitive, and that sways a lot of opinions, that and Machida’s sudden mortality.
It was a great fight. I still think a good/powerful leg kick should score more than a stiff jab, but that might be just me. Also, the leg kick Shogun was throwing under Machida’s body kick was a thing of beauty. I can’t wait for the rematch.
by blawa on Oct 27, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a great fight. I still think a good/powerful leg kick should score more than a stiff jab
I disagree.
I think a good stiff snap-the-head back jab should be scored about the same as a solid leg kick. But, a solid leg kick should be scored more than the run of the mill pawing rangefinder jab.
by Steve4192 on Oct 27, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When the winner of a five round, championship fight doesn’t get what rightfully belongs to him (the belt, the W), it’s a robbery.
If you have $1000 and I only take $10, you still got jacked. No matter the margin.
Lyoto Machida is one of my top 3 favorite fighters, and even with my rose colored glasses on & half drunk I could still see that he lost the fight. Then after rewatching it sober, hoping to find something in that fight that convinced me that he won, I could still plainly see that he lost.
Come on guys, Lyoto knows it, and he let it out in the post fight interview! The winner of a fight doesn’t ever say, “We have to go by the decision, I’m sorry”.
The winner of a fight doesn’t ever say, “I’ll try harder next time”.
My condolences & congratulations go out to Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, the real UFC Light Heavyweight champion. May your rematch come quickly, my friend.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it isn’t robbery when it isn’t your round. Rua didn’t clearly win Rds 1 and 2. That is the issue. No one has said (that I’ve seen) that there was no way Machida couldn’t have won the first three rounds. You see that on most of the live blogs.
I fighter would say that if they are disappointed in their performance (win or lose) and are limited in english and are trying to convey their feelings. Right after the fight Page said that Forrest beat him and “kicked his ass” now he says otherwise.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Forrest did kick his ass. After the fact, you have all of your yes-men telling you that you won the fight, so you start to believe it.
Also, it’s not so much Lyoto’s words, but how he said them, his body language, the look in his eyes. He knew he lost. He was a defeated fighter.
If there were any way I could justify that fight in Lyoto’s favor, trust me, I would. I’m one of his biggest fans, and sing his praises to anyone who will listen, but I can’t in good conscience say that Lyoto won. It just wasn’t a close fight. Lyoto was damaged when it ended. Shogun looked like he could have kept going for a while.
Plain and simple, Shogun inflicted more damage, neutralized Lyoto’s style, implemented his gameplan, controlled the pace of the fight, and broke Lyoto down. I’d love to see it a different way, but I just can’t. And I’ve tried.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can you not say it was close?
That is one thing that seems to not be disputed is rounds 1-3 were close. It has to be scored round by round not a whole fight. Rounds 1-3 could go either way and you see that across the industry with a Machida winning those rounds on a number of cards. Just not all of them.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the fight over and over, plus each exchange over and over, and Lyoto just wasn’t landing much. I wished he was, because I wanted him to win. I searched for reasons to justify him keeping the belt, but he just didn’t deserve to win.
Shogun won exchange-by-exchange, over the course of five rounds. plain and simple.
Or better yet, if we saw this fight happen in a back alley, nobody’d be congratulating Lyoto.
Come on y’all! At the end of the fight, Lyoto’s all cut up, breathin all heavy and has a red and purple imprint of a foot with all five toes on his gut. If we didn’t have any backstory on either of these guys, if this was just two unheard of amateurs in their debuts, nobody would have given that fight to Lyoto.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The winner of a fight doesn’t ever say, "I’ll try harder next time".
Many many many fighters say that exact same thing when they win a decision and not a stoppage.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida actually said the exact same thing when he didn’t finish Tito Ortiz.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he felt like he didn’t win that fight also. But point taken. I just feel that Lyoto looked like he knew he lost, in his heart.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, its possible, I don’t pretend to know what these guys are thinking but I don’t think anyone thought Tito won that fight.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 27, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely didn’t. Lyoto fought very well against Tito and deserved the W. But on Saturday night, after the fight he had the look of a beaten man.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Name a couple. It makes no sense for someone who feels in their heart that they won a fight to say “I’ll try harder next time.” You never see any other sports figure who is on the winning team say anything like that.
You don’t need to try harder when you’ve won. Because you won.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it does
This is a guy who KTFO’d his last 2 opponents and had never lost a round in the UFC, he is used to never taking any damage in his fights. Even if he believes he won he knows that he can do better.
by ufc4 on Oct 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that’s the thing. He didn’t believe he won that fight. He showed that to me, right after the fight.
I love him, and he’s still one of my favorites, but I honestly believe that belt should be around Shoguns waist right now. And Lyoto knows it.
From Michael Rome’s earlier post, qouting Dave Meltzer :
Dave Meltzer said Dana White wants the Lyoto Machida vs. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua rematch on UFC 108. Meltzer also stated that Shogun has agreed to the date, and Machida will let them know if he’s healthy enough to take it.
Man, if Shogun’s ready to rock and Lyoto needs a breather, doesn’t that tell you who won the fight? I mean, isn’t the ultimate purpose of a combat sport to inflict more damage on your oppenent than he does you?
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He showed that to you? He looked tired and worn, neither of which indicates losing a fight.
Man, if Shogun’s ready to rock and Lyoto needs a breather, doesn’t that tell you who won the fight? I mean, isn’t the ultimate purpose of a combat sport to inflict more damage on your oppenent than he does you?
GSP vs. BJ Penn, Henderson vs. Cerrone, Barry vs. Hardonk etc.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 28, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He lookedtired and wornbeat up
Fixed it for ya.
Also, Barry finished, GSP utterly destroyed BJ, and Hender/Benson was a controversy, so….?
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 28, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t Anderson Silva say that or something similar after beating Cote and Leites?
Quarry apologized after chasing Starnes.
Swick apologized after the fight with Burkman I believe.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In both instances, the Silva/Leites/Cote fight and the Quarry/Starnes fights, they weren’t apologizing for their own performances, but for their opponents.
Can’t recall the Swick/Burkman postfight, so you’d have to refresh me.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here we go....
We have heard pu-llenty of this. Where have you been and why can’t you contribute something new to the discussion?. The emotion has worn off and now the consensus has swung from “he was robbed” to now “it was far too close”. There are no experts saying he was robbed anymore, lets move on and wait for the rematch.
by SimplePsych on Oct 29, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See.
That is what I like to see, saying “look guys, regardless, it was a cool fight and we get to see it again.”
Bravo.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
by D.W. on Oct 27, 2009 10:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not only do we get to see it again, but should Shogun succeed in beating Machida in the rematch, we have a great trilogy in the making. Super Bowl weekend 2011 – Machida vs Rua III, anyone?
by lhasafi on Oct 27, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i thought the very fickle fan base was ready to move on to the UFC 106 situation… hope this doesnt rake in the 640 new comments with words like “swinging from his nuts” or “blind bastard” lol, its been colorful to say the least
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 27, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Some members will get “regulated” then if that happens.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
1. I scored it 48-47 for Shogun. I watched ti twice and although close I see this pretty clearly in Shogun’s favor.
2. I think the behavior should be encouraged, not discouraged. The fact that so many fans feel so passionately about this decision just shows how far the sport has come. This fight was considered a mismatch to most and a hard sell to casual fans, yet all across the internet the decision is being argued. Discussion is good for the sport and good for the future. We will get a rematch, but until then I encourage people to continue to rewatch the fight and post there thoughts and critisisims on whatever forum they choose. It can only bring in more fans and help to educate some of the casual fans.
by Nick Travaglini on Oct 27, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
1. I also scored it 48-47 Shogun.
2. I’m not discouraging the behavior. I’m simply saying that some of the arguments are completely overblown to the point of being absolutely ridiculous. I still can’t see how 50-45 is justified at all unless you are Joe Rogan. I still can’t see why using FightMetric’s scoring has anything to do with how the judges scored it. They don’t have the luxury of that. They have to make a decision right after the fight.
Discussion is great, but there were countless bans and bashing all over the place in OUR community that shouldn’t have happened. It was just WAY overblown.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
. They have to make a decision right after the fight
They have to make the decision after each round, based on that round, correct? Not a total of the fight as a whole. Under the judging in Japan I could see the “Rua won the fight” but I don’t think its conclusive that he won the most rounds.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, yes. That makes it a bit tougher. To be perfectly honest, I’d have hated to be a judge for this fight.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said exactly this after the third round
I couldn’t believe how close each round was, and although I also had Shogun winning, I wasn’t upset Machida got the decision. I’m a little disappointed this controversy has overshadowed what was such an excellent fight. I was smiling ear to ear the whole time, especially when the camera showed a profile of Machida’s karate stance and Rua’s Mauy Thai stance. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen such a clear style vs. style contest.
by rzor on Oct 27, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not disappointed either. I think it ultimately allows the UFC to gain another main event for an event they probably had no idea what they would do for a main event anyways. The decision wasn’t blasphemous to me at all.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have loved it…ring side seats for a Machida fight?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This fight was considered a mismatch to most and a hard sell to casual fans
Agreed, hell, it was like 90% of the MMA community was not giving Shogun any chance in this fight, most people thought it was going to be a joke of a fight. A lot of comments I’ve read are saying that people are giving it to Shogun because they’re being biased. How are they being biased if the majority of the people were rooting for Machida ever since the fight was announced?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly I didn’t think shogun would be able to execute his gameplan, but he did exactly what he said, and it worked. From the little I know about gameplans, how do you stop an outboxer? Body blows, and if it’s not boxing, add leg kicks. That’s what he did.
10/24
by spectaa on Oct 27, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He came, he saw, he conquered, but was denied the prestigious belt. Shogun is the un-official Pride + UFC LHW champ :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
.........and now I drink my urine :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was part of that 90% who didn’t give Rua a chance. But I was wrong. Rua absolutely won that fight.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong.
that’s the point, it wasn’t absolute. it was close and the varied opinions prove that.
by cagefightonacid on Oct 27, 2009 3:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Well, based on polls on this very site, the majority feels that Rua won. something like 75-80% in Shogun’s favor. So there’s that.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not about the popular vote
Its the electoral votes that matter :P
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 27, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My concern is that controversy overruns the analysis
I get the controversy. I think we can break down each round and see why it could have been judged two ways. If it was judged incorrectly or the judging criteria need to change then so be it.
Unfortunately we aren’t talking about the fight and the technique nearly enough, which to me is far more interesting. Topics of discussion.
1. What strategy can Machida implement in the re-match to nullify the leg kicks?
2. Should Machida have refused to engage first?
3. Can other fighters successfully implement this strategy vs. Machida or is it unique to Shogun’s skill set?
4. Was Machida at full health? He didn’t quite look explosive and came in under weight.
5. Should Machida have tried to go to the ground in the late rounds when he had no base due to devastating leg kicks?
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Honestly, I thought Machida looked sluggish from the start. And I also think that circling into Shogun’s lead leg was a bad idea. Circling into his right leg was a bad move, and I think we’ll see a focus on speed more in the rematch.
2. This one is tough, but Machida did land some solid blows while leading. The problem Shogun made was that he wasn’t really moving to counter much, but rather countering the punches he ate with heavy kicks at the same time. I wonder if Rua will try to change that to make it a more definitive round for himself.
3. Shogun’s speed was solid, and I don’t see others doing the same thing. Rashad is a bit short to do so, Rampage doesn’t kick enough, Griffin is slower… down the line. I’d be open to hear suggestions.
4. The rumor is that he had the flu, but Soares has been belligerent in commenting on it. I think he wants to remain quiet because he doesn’t want Lyoto to make excuses, which is fine by me. I don’t want to hear them. Come out convincing next time.
5. Without his legs, it may have been tough to do.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. His only MO is movement, so he has to move and counter more, that exposes him a little more because he has to come in more aggressively. Not sure that is the right thing to do.
2.no.
3.Probably, but it requires a lot of preparation and timing.
4. He was explosive until he got his legs battered a few times. He comes in routinely under the weight limit. He has come in as low as 199 for a 205 fight.
5.Not sure about that.
by blawa on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great piece.
I have to admit, I saw the Bisping-Hamill fight again and I can see why the decision was given to Bisping.
People will continue to argue about this fight for quite a while . . . the rematch should be great.
Just a note about Fight Metric and CompuStat, technically Forrest Griffin out struck Anderson Silva in their UFC 101 match. What does it mean? Nothing really. Pernell Whitaker out struck and out boxed Oscar De La Hoya . . . while Oscar De La Hoya out struck and out boxed Felix Trinidad.
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by VeeisAnimated on Oct 27, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, Compustrike is on the fly and shown on TV after each round in some boxing fights. I would think there is some major room for error if you don’t have a good view. FightMetric is likely way more accurate, but there is a luxury for FM in that they can rewatch the fight over and over and get it right.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a note about Fight Metric and CompuStat, technically Forrest Griffin out struck Anderson Silva in their UFC 101 match. What does it mean?
You sure about that? Where in here does it say Griffin out struck silva?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forrest “landed” a number of jabs that was blocked. The jabs actually made contact.
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by VeeisAnimated on Oct 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it possible that some people saw this as Shogun's fight because they saw something completely surprising?
Machida was expected to beat Shogun by EVERYONE. That is EVERYONE – particularly in the MMA media. And those that were fans of Shogun were probably more hopeful than confident.
Machida was conceived as an invincible champion by most and when it appeared that he’d met his match in Shogun I think it is possible that everything Shogun did offensively was so surprising that it had a much more profound impact on how they judged the fight.
Seriously, the more people watch the fight the more they see it as a closer fight. It has become very subjective and I’m very tired of talking/thinking about it now actually.
by Ilias on Oct 27, 2009 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t really think about this possibility too much as I still scored it for Shogun by a round.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see it that way, to me it wasn’t surprising because I was going for Shogun, he just outstruck Machida and won 4 rounds IMHO. Sure, it may have been surprising to many here, but I give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are watching and not just going with emotions. Most people saw it as a Shogun victory because he was the better athlete Saturday night in their opinion, not just because he surprised many viewers.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One media and One idiot picked Shogun for the record
Jeff Sherwood took Shogun
I, being the idiot, also took Shogun.
Just for the record
by Nick Travaglini on Oct 27, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Naw, a number of people picked Shogun to win.
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by VeeisAnimated on Oct 27, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im glad someone pointed out that there is a difference between a close decision that could go either way and a robbery.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 27, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great article Leland. Very well written and good points.
by LiuLang on Oct 27, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no way this fight hurts Shogun at all. He should move up to the #2 LHW, perhaps even number one depending on how some rankings scored the fight. The rematch is going to be huge.
by ryanwk628 on Oct 27, 2009 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A close decision is one that could go either way, a robbery is when Machida steals the UFC belt from Shogun’s hand. :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So definitely a close decision then, since the only hand to touch the belt before it was put around Machida’s waist was Dana White.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
nice comeback
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The talk of robbery has made me pretty sick lately…
I’ve really enjoyed our friendly fan rivalry though and we do get to continue doing that =D
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for sure
but I’m sure the way you are feeling now with all the comments about Machida is what I was feeling like a week ago with the comments about Shogun. Don’t worry, this will go away soon enough and pick up again a month before the next fight.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, the crazy people would be those who claimed Machida would clown Shogun in the striking, and shouted down anyone who dared claim otherwise. Wait, that would include yourself, which is why you’re trying to justify the decision.
Every media outlet in addition to fightmetric said Shogun won. And he did.
by Hardcharger on Oct 27, 2009 10:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I said Machida would clown Shogun in the striking department, and he didn’t. I was wrong. So? What’s your point again?
Justify what decision? My decision that Shogun won the fight 48-47?
Yeah, because Cecil Peoples has the FightMetric scoring system sitting on his lap and he has the meticulous option of slo-motion replays and frame by frame breakdowns so he can see exactly what punches landed and which didn’t. Give me a break.
My view is simple. The controversy is overblown. I’m not sure what your point is at all. I was wrong about how the fight would go down. Big deal, take your shots when I’m actually saying Machida exploded all over Shogun. Oh wait, I never said that.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s overblown to anyone who’s been following Rua’s career for ever now, we feel he deserved to be holding the UFC belt around his waist, and was denied by bad judging criteria instead of common sense which most of us, including yourself, has.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to just butt in for a second and remind everyone how I think the 10 point must system is still the best scoring system to use for the sport. Or, at least the best scoring system that has been proposed.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is it better than a fight as a whole?
let’s say the first three round were very close as you said before (not sure if it was you) and could go either way (but you gave it to Machida) and the last two rounds are clearer Shogun’s, why wouldn’t this negate the first three rounds in which were very, very close?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He could have won them 10-8?
He didn’t. I haven’t heard one person say those were a 10-8 round.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no 10-8 rounds
that’s just crazy, there were no knock downs. but my point is that judging a fight as a whole instead of each round is better than the must 10 point system. Most people would agree that the first three round were very close, and the last two were not so close. why not give it to the guy that won the last two and negate the first three rounds since they were so close?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because they fought 5 rounds, not 2.
“Judging the fight as a whole” sounds great in theory, but is not so great in practice. How many screwjobs have there been in Japan?
Looking at the whole fight, it’s very difficult to remember what exactly happened in the beginning and weigh everything equally.
You can think all 3 judges are wrong, but at least it’s written down on paper which rounds they had which fighter winning, so it’s easier to break down what they were thinking.
If the fight was judged as a whole and the judges all just said “machida wins” it would be impossible to try to figure out what the judges were thinking.
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many screwjobs have there been in Japan?
how many have there been in the US?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But with the ones in the US we have the paper trail and can at least try to make some sense out of the situation.
You can disagree with that paper trail, but it’s there, which counts for a lot. Especially when there is money on the line.
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well…the old PRIDE system of judging the fight as a whole has a major flaw. Mainly that there is no “paper trail.” Making schenanegins much easier to pull off. I mean, look at any of the PRIDE controversial decisions…you have no way to see HOW a judge arrived at a decision. You don’t see that he gave rounds 1 and 2 to fighter a and understand that he was valuing (insert whatever here) over fighter b’s (insert whatever) you just have him say “I think this guy won”
Also, in close fights you basically have a coin flip. Draws will never been scored with much regularity in the states (nor should they) as they will turn off fans and hurt the sport overall. So in a close fight you’re going to have even MORE scoring “for the fan favorite.” Also this method of scoring ALWAYS favors the guy that is doing best at the end of the fight. If I win rounds 1-3 by a clear margin, and then you win rounds 4-5 by a clear margin…under this scoring 75% of the time you’re getting the decision based on last impressions.
Then there is the fact that the judges are still going to be the same people. I don’t want guys like Cecil Peoples taking on the more challenging task of scoring a fight in its entirity rather than being able to take it section by section.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
I’m going to google this sometime (I admit that I’m one lazy sob), but I feel there are more controversies in decisions in the UFC than there were in Pride (Pride had its share, but the UFC to me seems to have more).
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s just because there is more noise about UFC decisions.
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And more fights as a whole...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in these cases...
you can actually LOOK at the scorecards and say “look, something isn’t right when round (whatever) was scored for (whoever)”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's my point really
The 10-8 round still allows for someone to make up a deficit by dominating later rounds. Sure there are times were there might be an 10-9.5 or 10-8.5 round, but I’ll take the transparency of 10-9 must over other systems.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And more COMPETITIVE fights
How many times did Wandy fight against cans while he was champ?
by ufc4 on Oct 27, 2009 12:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
well, you gotta give a dog a bone every once in a while :P
wanderlei “mad dog” sillllllvaaaaaaaa
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, from memory (and from a guy that only used to watch Pride in the past), I can’t remember that many
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about half-points?
I haven’t really thought too much about it, but how do you feel about half-points? I’ve seen them in kickboxing, I believe. Could they be useful in MMA, with the low number of rounds?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
by FRANKIE on Oct 27, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the intentions of the idea...
I just worry about how they’ll be used. I like the “dominant but not quite 10-8 round” being a 10-8.5 or the “very close but still won by” round being 10-9.5
I just don’t know how it would be used in actual practice
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, judges don’t know how to use 10-10 rounds now or they are afraid to use them, depending on your perspective.
I like .5 points because used properly, they could more accurately score a fight and judges who did not feel comfortable calling a round a draw could call it a 10-9.5.
But yea, the judges would probably screw it up.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the fightmetric stats are merely evidence in ADDITION to every single media outlet who scored the fight live, all for Rua. Discount Fightmetric all you want, everyone still scored the fight for Rua. The controversy is far from overblown, as this was a title fight
Hopefully the Machida invincibility train can slow down quite a bit now that people were brought back to reality.
by Hardcharger on Oct 27, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not discounting FightMetric.
I’m stating that’s tough to say that since FightMetric scored it 49-47 for Rua that we should blast the judging because they didn’t score it the same. Some people have done that. It isn’t a general rant against everyone.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think FightMetric serves to reinforce or contradict what we saw (or thought we saw) live.
For every media source scoring the fight, it reinforced their scoring the fight for Rua, and contradicted the decision by the UFC judges. For those claiming bias against Rogan’s commentary, it put a damper on that viewpoint. I don’t expect each judge to be able to tabulate strikes in the moment like Fightmetric does after the fact.
by Hardcharger on Oct 27, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s my only problem…
Machida’s TPR was higher. But he lost rounds. So in reality, even FightMetric had trouble scoring this bout.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not a problem. He got 5 points for winning the fight, you give those to shogun and he wins by all of their standards.
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh, good point.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that you are in the fellowship of the ring, maybe you can look through some of the records or see if you can find one where the loser has a higher TPR (or convince someone who can to try to find one like that)
It’s possible for the effectiveness score and the TPR to be out of sync because the TPR relies on the judges actual decision, but (without diving headfirst into the math) it sounds like it would have to be a really bad decision (a robbery?) for the person who wins the fight in the real world to have a lower TPR.
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll have to look into that when I have some time.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you not find it odd
That nearly every media outlet scored it differently and said after the first 3 rounds it could go either way? It wasn’t a robbery in the least.
Here is what I found on Rd by Rd scoring.
MMAJunkie: Rua 1-4, Machida Rd 5. But in each comment they say close round for every round but the fourth. That it could go either way.
Sherdog:
Breen: Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua, Rua
Knapp: Rua, Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua
Fridley: Rua all 5 rounds.
Josh Gross:
Rua, Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua. Stated Rd 1 was very close and that the judges could see it the other way.
Bloody Elbow (Kid Nate): Rua, Draw, Rua, Rua, Rua.
Five Knuckles.com: Rua, Rua, Machida, Rua, Rua
Las Vegas Sun: Machida, Rua, Machida, Rua, Rua (final comment was, “Very tough fight to call”)
411Mania: Rua, Rua, Machida, Rua, Machida. (After every round they state its very close, at the end they say its very close and could go either way)
Dana White’s quote: "The first round could have gone either way. I gave the second and third to Machida and then I gave the fourth and fifth to Shogun," he revealed. "So assuming that Shogun won the first, fourth, and fifth, he wins the fight. Was it a close fight? Yeah, it was a close fight."
Updates:
Fightgameblog.com: Rua, Machida, Rua, Rua, Rua. Closing quote “I had Shogun winning the fifth round and the fight, four rounds to one. If you scored the fight as a whole, he definitely won. He won the last two rounds fairly easily in my book, but the first three rounds were close enough to be debatable” After the decion quote: “I won’t say that Rua was robbed because I thought the first three rounds were close. Machida clearly lost the last two rounds. I’m not sure Machida took all three of those rounds, but I guess I can see how it could be judged that way. It’s amazing that all three judges saw it the same way.”
Promma.info: All rounds for Rua but stated or implied that the first 3 rounds were close.
MMA Rising: Rua, Rua, Machida, Rua, Rua. Surprising only mentioned Rd 3 as close.
Fightline: Rua, Rua, Machida, Rua, Rua. Stated that the first round was close.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
what I find interesting
is that everyone (mostly) gave it to Rua, not Machida. You will not fight everyone scoring the same way, but in general they’ll give it to the guy who won (in this case Shogun).
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That isn’t the point of his comment. The point is that the rounds were very close, so it isn’t absurd to believe the judges pushed it that way. Although, I’m a bit surprised all three did.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's my point
all three judges gave it to Machida, I find that really hard to sell, bad judging criteria all around from these judges.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn’t inconceivable, just a bit surprising.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would have been worse for MMA
If the Sherdog guys were the judges.
Breen: Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua, Rua
Knapp: Rua, Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua
Fridley: Rua all 5 rounds
It looks like they all watched a different fight.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know what fight Fridley was watching but apparently the one were he doesn’t like Machida.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d only completely disagree with Fridley’s account of the fight.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if it isn’t a crazy thought that Machida could have one rounds 1-3 and according to 2 media outlets he won round 5, then in theory Machida could won 4 rounds. Several thought Machida won some mixture of the first 3 rounds. To me it isn’t a robbery if you can make a case for either fighter winning any given round. With the inconsistancies in scoring throughout the industry why are the judges getting ripped for finding the rounds for those most were clear on.
And it does matter how you get the results, not that the results were all the same.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We also can’t remove the bias introduced by Rogan’s commentary from a lot of these “judges” who probably were at home with the volume on.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you’re saying we’re brainwashed by rogan? You don’t think I can tell who wins the fight without the commentating?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some people can’t, my friend.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's been something that has been a big thing in boxing for a long time also...
the need to watch fights without sound as commentary DOES influence people’s perception of the fight. There are all kinds of psych experiments that have been conducted that show that people will play off of how they’re being led by others. If the commentary is leading you one way…a lot of people will tend to follow that just because it’s the way the brain works.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
And I found that in watching the fight over and over again, I couldn’t help but notice Rogan’s complete biased at the kicks vs. jabs landed. It didn’t really bother me, but I can see it swaying some perception.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might have been swayed to Machida
I thought Rogan was so biased I wanted to score for Machida.
The number of studies on this is so clear that it def. affects opinion.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, look at fox news! (sorry, I won’t bring it up again, just a light joke). Not everyone buys what the commentators are selling though, and it’s a mistake to think we’re all in Shogun’s favor just because Rogan was trying to sell him too much.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that is the case...
but I do think in a close fight that it’s a good idea to check out the fight without commentary. I mean, you may still see the fight exactly the same. Or you may score it the same but see that you think certain things were less effective. Or you may see something different. It’s not that EVERYONE was led by Rogan. But I have no doubt that it did impact many people’s opinion of just HOW clear the decision was.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, we aren’t saying EVERYONE buys into it. It’s pretty obvious that not everyone does. But you have to admit, some people do.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just think it’s wrong to generalize, that’s all. do some people buy too much on what the commentators are saying? sure, my mom would believe anything bad a politician had to say about another, but that doesn’t mean that most of us would. Sure, Rogan could have influenced many here to swade in Shogun’s way, but I’d say most of us feels this way because we watched the fight again with no sound just to confirm our initial thoughts.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We aren’t generalizing. We are saying some.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t saying you (leland) in particular, my original reply was to SE84, but we are on the same page now.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The average UFC does not go back and watch a fight over and over again, count punches thrown or watch it muted. They watch it once and come to some sort of conclusion. These are the fans that are more influenced by biased commentary and they are the majority.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fan
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want tracked audio on all sports broadcasts so I can still hear the sounds of the event but can mute the commentary. I especially want this for fightsport.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
by FRANKIE on Oct 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah...
that’d be pretty sweet
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Oct 27, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's true
but SE84 seems to be getting the idea that we are all being brainwashed, when in reality many of us are talking about the fight itself without the commentating.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what I meant
All I was pointing out is that listening with the sound on is likely to influence a judge to vote pro Shogun. So maybe a few of those 10-9 Shogun’s might have gone 10-9 Machida. That’s not to say though that I disagree with any individual score (will maybe the 50-45). I’m just pointing out the bias in the evidence presented there.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are a lot of so-called “fans” that would have no idea what they were watching if Rogan and Goldie didn’t tell them. It’s a scary thought.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it probably means that MMA is picking up new fans.
Which is awesome.
by Razreshat on Oct 27, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does that have to do with his statement?he’s probably right.
by ufc4 on Oct 27, 2009 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
My card
Three different viewings:
1st Viewing – Machida, Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua (48-47 Machida)
2nd Viewing – Draw, Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua (48-48 draw)
3rd Viewing (no sound) – Machida, Machida, Machida, Rua, Rua (48-47 Machida)
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Honestly, I think your 2nd viewing is the way I’d go if I watched it again. Round 1 is just way too damn close.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I VERY rarely score a round 10-10 considering that I always try to think that one guy HAS to have done something better. So it really speaks to how close the round was for me to score it a draw.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I made the suggestion to a friend yesterday. If this was a K-1 fight, it may have easily went to extension rounds.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
head kick legend said the same thing
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
10-10 rounds are vastly under used by judges and should be encouraged if there isn’t a clear cut winner. I’d rather see more draws than what we are going through now
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it shouldn’t have to be clear cut. If a guy did just a little bit more he still won the round. I really don’t want to have to sit through many fights resulting in draws.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
Was there clearly a fighter that did a little bit more in the first 2 rounds of this fight? I don’t think so.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying...
it shouldn’t HAVE to be completely clear. I saw narrow margins in those rounds for Machida. I’d rather score based on a narrow margin than force draws down people’s throats and hurt the sport. People aren’t going to keep tuning in if they’re regularly not getting conclusive finishes. Controversial wins are better than completely deflating draws.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve said it before but I had the same scorecard as Brent. With the 10 point must system Machida won the fight.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 27, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People should really stop bringing Fightmetric into MMA analysis.
One of the greatest, and most frustrating for hardcore fans, things about MMA is that it defy’s simple quantitative analysis like Fightmetric.
by Razreshat on Oct 27, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it doesn’t, but it helps…
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
looking at numbers is always good…
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it confuses people.
Especially in MMA where 10 punches might not equal 1 punch depending on the types of punches and their effectiveness.
by Razreshat on Oct 27, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s why they have powershots/jabs.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me thinks Shogun did not land the power shots Fightmetric says he landed…at least not to the head.
In fact, many of his power punches did not even have the force of a good jab.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, if you say so...
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch the fight and tell me how many times he did that…not very many.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me thinks Shogun did not land the power shots Fightmetric says he landed…at least not to the head.
In fact, many of his power punches did not even have the force of a good jab.
fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice… shame on… you see, if you get fool you can’t get fooled again…
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
many is different than any
he said “many” did not have the force not that none of them did
Not saying I agree or disagree here. Just that you’re not exactly “showing him” with this one
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These metrics help with understanding
Its not the end all and be all, but plenty of other sports have shown quantitative analysis to be quite useful
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but other sports also have easy to quantify analysis during the game. Not so in MMA. I can see a football player catch a ball and score a touchdown.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah the judging makes it tough
Imagine if we scored Soccer games based on some criteria.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soccer is reffed that way, depending on the home team….
"That feeling after you win and they raise your hand... it's like you have this energy that releases from your body, and it's like you mingle with the cosmos, and you feel omnipotent"
by woomikee on Oct 27, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, much better to rely on the analysis of drive-time radio DJs. Good call.
Fightmetric is a tool, just like Compubox is a tool in boxing. It doesn’t tell the whole story, but it can be illuminating in close fights.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously almost warned you for calling someone a tool. Until I re-read your comment to see that you didn’t.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny. Thanks for double-checking.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm sure those tools work well for boxing.
Which is a completely one dimensional sport, as opposed to MMA that has too many dimensions to count. So using those tools will only illuminate one aspect of the sport and lead to confusing assumptions about what their data means.
by Razreshat on Oct 27, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, the crazy people would be those who claimed Machida would clown Shogun in the striking, and shouted down anyone who dared claim otherwise.
You mean the “crazy” people that stated their opinion, and then calmly debated with the people (orcus) that had a different one? Nobody was shouted down. Given to hyperbole much?
by Grappo on Oct 27, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Article
I thought Shogun won when I watched it live but I also thought the commentary was blatantly biased. I also didn’t really score the fight in my head.
I watched the replay and ignored the commentary. I scored it a draw w/the first round being a 10-10.
I watched it last night on mute after looking at some of the Fightmetric numbers. I was specifically counting Shoguns head-shots to Machida and I can honestly say, there is absolutely NO WAY Shogun landed the more significant blows to he head. I only counted a handful that landed w/any kind of power and many were glancing punches, elbows and a couple of rabbit punches. Machida was landing crisper, cleaner punches all night and was backing Shogun up at times. He also ate a lot of kicks in the process but he certainly did not get dominated in the manner the numbers would indicate.
I suggest everyone re-watch the fight on mute(if you haven’t already). The fight seems closer every time I watch it.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The other factor...
Close round, close round, close round, clearer round, very clear round
So if the impression people are left with are the two clearest rounds being for shogun AND at the end of the fight…it makes a decision LOOK worse than it really is.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I got some crazy notion last night that watching it in silence removed the crowd, Rogan and the slap of Shogun’s kicks from the equation and even the 4th and 5th rounds started looking closer to me than I had previously thought.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, last impressions go a long way. Even though I scored it for Machida on multiple viewings, the last two rounds would have swayed me if I hadn’t scored the fight round by round.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 27, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is something that very few viewers actually do.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 27, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chad Dukes?
I wouldn’t put too much into what Chad Dukes says. While he does a great job of entertaining radio his takes on mma and football are that of a 13 year old.
by KING FEDOR on Oct 27, 2009 11:01 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but it’s a good point. “You have to TAKE the belt from the champion” is a dumb saying that a lot of fans use as a basis for championship fights, but it isn’t a part of the judging process at all. Cage Rage used it because there are no commissions in England, but fighters KNEW that coming into championship bouts there. This is completely different.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
but there is a wonderful writer on this very site who already made that point.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And...
I completely agree with that assessment. If you win a round, you win the damn round, period.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My view is that there is no champion in the middle of a fight, the belt is sitting outside the cage.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Wonderful”? Hmmmmmm. “Passable” sounds more accurate.
by ufc4 on Oct 27, 2009 1:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t you have to take power shots into consideration at some point? Your jab/leg kick trade off is fine if they are of equal power, but isn’t a heavy leg kick much more debilitating than a jab?
by WestbergIDFC on Oct 27, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but some of those exchanges in which Shogun landed a heavy kick had Shogun stumbling backwards. Then the debate becomes whether that land was worth a LOT because it may have hurt him, and then it becomes a debate of whether he was actually hurt, etc, etc, etc.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun was on one leg, of course he would stumble back. My point is that at the start of the 4th and 5th rounds, Machida looked like he wanted to quit, those legs kicks had obviously taken a dramatic toll, and he was no way near effective. Shogun looked a little tired, but not worse for wear. If you could somehow quantify “damage”, Machida appeared to have taken much more.
by WestbergIDFC on Oct 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't sure those were damaging
In rounds 1 and 2, which I gave to Machida by slim margins (and still do) I wasn’t so sure those leg kicks were better than the jabs. When it got to round 4 and 5 I saw that the accumulation of the leg kicks was a big deal then I started to think that it might have been different, but that’s not how I saw it at the time.
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can somebody explain this Chad Dukes stuff to me?
This is, ostensibly, a national MMA sports blog. It is teamed with USA Today, “The Nation’s Newspaper.” So why do I, a guy sitting on the West Coast, care what some morning dj in DC who, by his own admission, doesn’t know much about MMA thinks? I understand he’s Luke’s friend/colleague, and got Luke a radio job. Other than that, what are his qualifications where I should care what he thinks?
It’s a serious question. I don’t mind analysis that differs from my thoughts on a fight. I’d just like for it to be from someone with some kind of bona fides.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 27, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I only added that portion because his view does convey my own. You don’t “have to beat the champion” in order to win the fight. You win each round, you win, even if it’s close.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is the most high profile person that has advocated the “have to beat the champion” position?
by Jahbulon on Oct 27, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea. In North America, I’ve never seen that criteria actually used. I don’t think it was used in this fight either. I generally think the judges scored it the way they thought it went. Whether that’s right or not is the debate.
But I do know that Cage Rage used that phrase as a clause in championship bouts, and they’d repeat it constantly. And that was a major British promotion.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have any prominent MMA pundits advocated it?
by Jahbulon on Oct 27, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure I could find some, but it’d be from long ago probably.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goldie said it after the fight. He’s prominent and respected, right? :)
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 27, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You hear it less...
now than you used to. I’ve seen it on a few sites (i’ll have to go looking again later) and of course you do see it on occasion with boxing. But as a whole it has lost a lot of steam from both boxing and mma writers. Now it’s more of a “fan idea” than something pushed by many writers of any repute.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, it’s not a real rule it seems like it started from boxing announcers trying to explain garbage decisions.
People tried to use it to justify why Rampage should have beat Forrest, but I think they got shouted down so badly that no one really wants to try to use it to defend machida this time around.
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly don’t care about it either. But then again Dukes doesn’t care for me. But yeah, I’m certainly not treating him like he has any real valuable insight into this fight
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although...
I should have linked Brookhouse’s piece, my bad Brent.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should be...
I’m all weepy now!
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I replaced the link. haha
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in DC so maybe I'm biased
But I think a guy who is big in a large Media market who talks about MMA is as relevant for discussion as some internet blog that only a few hardcores need. Its a different perspective, but since some of the BE guys live around here as well it might get a little too much play
by SES 84 on Oct 27, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if Dana White comes out publicly and says he had shogun wining the fight it means shogun won. Why would he try to make his lhw champ illegitimate????
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 27, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
AH! Of course! Dana White is the end all be all for your MMA opinions!
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God damn right he is. Fedor sucks.
by ufc4 on Oct 27, 2009 1:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Well, with that I disagree, I’m sure he’s happy with the dispute, it buys him time to sort the LHW division with the title on hold.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh come on! We all know Dana needs no excuse to put any title on hold. That’s what TUF is for… :)
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 27, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
that’s true!
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All Brasil TUF? =P
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that would be fucking awesome, for me
but I can see it being the lowest ratings ever for the US :’(
I’m not holding my breath on that ever happening
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 27, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummmm maybe because a controversial decision is the best thing for the UFC? He gets another huge title fight with the possibility of Shogun winning (which is also better for the UFC as it opens up even more interesting title defenses whereas Lyoto is quickly running out of challengers).
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just felt like Shogun was pushing the fight and the pace more. I know Machida’s style is to counter but he looked off to me and beaten. I thought Shogun did an awesome job in that fight even though there were times where I was frustrated and wishing he would try a little harder to finish. They both looked like they could be a little less tentative but I guess that’s because they were respecting each other’s skills.
I was surprised when the decision went to Machida but I was also surprised when Ben Henderson got the decision over Cerrone.
Can’t wait for the rematch!
by Lunchbox15 on Oct 27, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good article. I had the Shogun winning the fight – both when I first saw it and when I rewatched it without commentary – but I was embarrassed to see people on this site that I really respect writing things like this:
That was a fucking joke decision!!!! shogun won that fight. He didn’t lose a round. I’m so fucking disgusted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
worse than Hamill vs Bisping!
This is depressing in every way possible.
Frankly I think we may have seen an org protecting it’s new posterboy.
That fight should be INVESTIGATED and over turned. Not to mention the WIN bonus that Shogun lost!!
If Dana White doesn’t come and say something to defend Shogun about this Robbery he is a FRAUD!!
WTF were those judges smoking or watching? Maybe the Judges and refs should start taking DRUG TESTS!!
This BS is starting to happen FAR TO OFTEN lately in MMA.
Disgusting, I hope everyone that keeps talking about how all of these close fights aren’t robberies finally wake the fuck up. Shogun was robbed of the LHW title, he pulled a Griffin against Rampage and dominated and exposed the favored champion and was screwed over big time. This along with Nog/Ricco are probably the 2 worst decisions i’ve ever seen in my life.
biggest robbery in MMA history, made me sick …. seems like mma is going down the same route that boxing took.
Talk about some shady shit.
The California State Athletic Commission judges chose to ignore the reality of what happened in the fight and awarded Lyoto Machida with a gift decision over Mauricio “Shogun” Rua.
The moral of the story? If you want the belt you must knock out the champ.
(I love how in a few people’s minds Machida has gone from being a fighter that Zuffa is trying to screw out of a title shot to being their poster boy whom they are willing to commit fraud to protect.)
For every single one of us there are fights that we scored differently than the majority of observers. I hate the fact that it is not enough to say that someone scored a fight incorrectly. There has to be “fraud” and “shady shit” and the UFC “protecting their posterboy”. A similar thing went down when Jordan Breen scored the Henderson-Cerrone fight for Cerrone. It wasn’t enough for people to simply say “I disagree with how Breen scored the fight”, instead it had to be “Breen is an funny looking asshole who uses big words” and “Breen must have lost money on Cerrone” and “Breen is a Cerrone nut-hugger” and “Breen scored it that way because he gets off on being different” and “Breen scored it that way to further his agenda”.
by Jahbulon on Oct 27, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The Internet is full of hyperbole and baseless accusations. I’m a pretty jaded guy, but some of the shit that I hear and read still surprises me. This is why it’s good to take a break from blogs and spend time with people who are not obsessed with posting their opinions on the internet.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 27, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, a lot of those comments are in the heat of the one viewing. I purposely stayed away from posting till today on anything. I soaked in the UFC fights again, soaked in DREAM 12, and soaked in K-1 MAX last night over dinner. Then I re-watched the Machida v. Shogun fight again and again.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True. Most were probably made by while people were under the influence also.
by Jahbulon on Oct 27, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
The interesting part about FightMetric’s data is that Machida did have a higher TPR, but didn’t win the rounds. The argument could be made that it’s also at a split on who actually won.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I said it above but i’ll say it again here in case people don’t go all the way to the right of the comments. TPR gives 5 points to whoever wins the fight. Not who they think wins the fight, who actually gets the W. Take those points out (or give them to shogun) and Shogun wins the TPS comparison. It would have to be a really terrible decision for the guy that actually loses the fight to have a higher TPR..
by Phildo on Oct 27, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically my problem is with everyone now over-analyzing and re-watching the fight multiple times, and in my opinion, trying to see/understand how the judges could have scored the fight for Machida, and surprise, surprise “they can understand” how the judges scored it for Machida.
On first watch basically everyone and their mother (other than the three moronic judges) thought Rua won – and isn’t that how you’re supposed to determine the winner if you’re acting like the judge, watching/scoring it in real time just like them? Now that people are trying to “justify” the reasons for Machida’s win and watching to see how Machida could have won, they’re convincing themselves that maybe, maybe Machida could have won the fight.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 27, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s interesting because when I watched the fight live… I thought it was 48-47 Rua, but I had a similar problem I had even after multiple viewings. Some of those rounds were razor close, so it isn’t inconceivable as to how they could have got it 48-47 Machida.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The people that thought Machida won the fight are having to justify their reasons for his win not because they’re trying to convince themselves he won (cause he did), but because they’re perceived as crazy if they thought Machida won. There have been attacks on both sides, and it’s ridiculous. It doesn’t matter how much we argue, because a) the decision stands. Machida won. Shogun lost. b) no one side is going to convince the other. We’re better off agreeing to disagree.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But nearly every live, round by round coverage said the first 3 rounds could go either way. Its not a stretch or some kind of justification to give those 3 rounds to Machida.
by swells2048 on Oct 27, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How come everytime I see Ron Kruck's name I think of this guy?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 27, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because that’s Ron Kruk.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 27, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kinda looks like Turtle from Entourage.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Oct 28, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fight was close. Wasn’t so much in Shogun’s favor that ruling it in Machida’s favor makes it a robbery, IMO.
by Hardcase on Oct 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Scored it 48-47 Machida live. Scored it 48-47 Rua on the rewatch. Didn’t have a problem with the decision going either way.
by Tonley on Oct 27, 2009 6:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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