Quote of the Day: A Judge's Defense of Lyoto Machida at UFC 104
by Luke Thomas on Oct 26, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
in News
239 comments
"First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss. Mauricio Rua was being aggressive but it wasn't effective aggressiveness which is what we as the judges look for when scoring a fight. The way I saw it, Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight - if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack in the earlier rounds which is why I scored the first three rounds for Machida. You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don't do that."
"When both fighters are engaged in a striking match what I always look for is the fighter who is being judicious, picking his spots, being accurate and landing the cleaner strikes which ultimately is what Lyoto did more effectively than Rua. Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control. I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all. Therefore going by that criteria, I believe Lyoto won the fight clearly. I'm just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way and I'm sure the fans who understand the technicalities of the sport agree with the decision too."
-- Cecil Peoples, who scored the first three rounds for Machida with rounds four and five going to Rua.
UPDATE: There's some question about the source of this quote being trustworthy. We'll try to confirm it. Stay tuned.
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Honestly, this is good.
I don’t care which way you saw the fight, I think the specific judges coming out and explaining why they scored a fight the way they did, especially a controversial decision like this one, is something that is really needed.
You can disagree with what he’s saying, but I’m glad he said it.
by Phildo on Oct 26, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
I’d prefer there not be a need for judges to explain their bad decisions.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t care if you agree with the decision or not. The judges should explain them.
by Phildo on Oct 26, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. I also found this quote,
You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that."to be particularly telling. I had thought about this a lot since the fight (I felt/feel Shogun won) and wondered if they didn’t count the leg kicks much since they don’t tend to finish fights.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
legs kicks dont finish fights
wow i wonder what marco ruas or brandon vera think about that. i wonder what thiago alves thinks?
i think leg kicks can finish a fight not with the frequency of say a triangle choke but they have finished fights in the past or at the very least caused so much damage that they changed the fight or in the case of rampage and forrest won the fight
by bearcox13 on Oct 26, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
wow i wonder what marco ruas or brandon vera think about that
There aren’t enough chois in the world for this.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“tend” to finish fights.
I love leg kick KO’s, it’s one of my all time favorite finishes, but leg kicks don’t “tend” to finish fights. Unless you use them enough to knock a guy down or visibly make him limp about I understand why they don’t get much credence since you’re not going to finish with them unless that happens. Not sure I agree with it, but I understand.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same. Basically the same analogy can be applied to the jab. Yes its possible it finishes a fight but the vast majority of time it is not used to finish the fight. Thats more what he is saying.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 26, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And footstomps.
Great for scoring points, but they ain’t finishing.
When leg kicks do finish fights, it’s usually due to submission, and not an actual KO. I think, but I haven’t seen every fight.
by Dooda on Oct 26, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True.
In MT, or K1, when your legs are hurt, they became the target, and your opponent goes for the kill, hence leg kicks KO.
by dancingChicken on Oct 26, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. No no no.
In your example the leg kicks themselves aren’t doing the KOing. They are setting up the KO. Leg kicks can KO someone, but it’s really really rare. The comparison to the jab is much more accurate.
by thekiltedwonder on Oct 26, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was simplifying situation that is resulting in leg kick KO.
And it’s rare, but not really really rare…
by dancingChicken on Oct 27, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
cro cop vs Yoshida
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep, was reading through just to make sure someone mentioned that fight
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 26, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s possible that they thought “I’ve done a lot of leg kicks, and they’ve never finished the fight”.
Unless I’m missing something, I’ve only seen a leg kick finish a fight when Bas Rutten beat some tool with them that had no business being in the ring with him.
Thiago Alves mutilated Koscheck with leg kicks, but did he finish him? Nope. I haven’t seen Vera finish with a leg kick either. Forrest landed mad leg kicks on Rampage, but Rampage was completely recovered by the next round.
BTW, I love leg kicks, especially against wrestlers that use that particular muscle to explode into takedowns and posturing. But even strikers, who rely on their legs to generate power etc. But they certainly don’t finish fights except for rare occasions.
by Dooda on Oct 26, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jardine finishing Kerry Schall with leg kicks comes to mind for me as well.
That being said, I don’t disagree with the points here at all, just being a nerd. If there’s two things Machida certainly ain’t, that’s Mike Patt or Kerry Schall.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
by Dodectagon on Oct 27, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should’ve admitted that I didn’t see Vera’s first fights in the UFC before his fight with Sylvia.
by Dooda on Oct 27, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No problem
This came after.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 27, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That one was actually a UFC 96 prelim that they slipped into the broadcast, but again…it’s Mike Patt.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
by Dodectagon on Oct 27, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll certainly be adding this to my “useful mma gambling” information list.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 26, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If thats what judges think (right or wrong) its still extremely useful information and should be used when handicapping fighters who rely more on leg kicks to score points.
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 26, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't help but feel that he's never been kicked in the leg.
Leg kicks are incredibly damaging, and they do SO much to push the fight in the kicker’s favor. Lyoto’s explosiveness is his #1 weapon, and Shogun’s leg kicks took that away.
If that’s not executing a smart game plan to win a fight, I don’t know what is.
According to his logic, Gonzaga won a few rounds against Couture, since all Couture did was push him against the cage (not looking to finish), and Gonzaga was trying to get off the cage so that he could kick Couture’s head off. Therefore, Gonzaga looking to finish, Gonzaga wins on points.
by Shaun32887 on Oct 26, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry dude but that’s a terrible example. Randy was pinning him on the fence and dirty boxing all up in his grill the whole time.
In Machida vs Rua, you have two guys going at it in the center of the cage the whole time exchanging. It wasn’t like Machida was constantly recovering the whole time from leg kicks. But those leg kicks certainly gave Rua decisive wins in rounds 4 and 5.
by Dooda on Oct 26, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh, if this is fake that sucks, but they should have to explain themselves anyway. I know the commissions say they review and do that stuff in private, but it should be done publicly also.
by Phildo on Oct 26, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lyoto made Shogun come after him, he determined where the fight took place
No.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by AboveThisFire on Oct 26, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know, right?
Did he have Shogun and Machida mixed up?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 26, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
That must be crushing for Shogun to hear, he stalks Machida the whole fight, and then Lyoto gets credit for dictating where the fight will take place. Wow.
by Shaun32887 on Oct 26, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cecil Peoples is awesome and if you don’t agree there is something wrong with you.
by dumbwhiteguy on Oct 26, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
haha, rec'd for making me feel smarter, i need the boost for my day.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 26, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Lyoto made Shogun come after him….which in my opinion constitutes as effective Octagon control.”
In Cecil’s opinion, Kalib Starnes is the most controlling fighter ever.
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Oct 26, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
please shoot me….made shogun come after him….if you put 2 machidas in the ring you would get more excitement out of watching chuck lidell dancing
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chucks hands are low again, she’s gonna KO him!
by Gentleman on Oct 27, 2009 6:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bit about Octagon Control
was LITERALLY the most ridiculous statement about an MMA match I’ve ever read.
Somebody, PLEASE revoke People’s license.
by Trysdor on Oct 26, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How so? It makes total sense. Controlling the octagon /= being aggressive.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It can be. You can evade situations you don’t like and force the other guy to fight your fight. That IS control.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evasion doesn’t force the opponent to do anything.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it does. It absolutely does. You know, Shogun was VERY evasive in this fight as well and he did it effectively. He out “elusived” Lyoto, IMO.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you’re evasive you force your opponent to fight where YOU want to fight instead of where they would like to fight, that is if you use your evasiveness properly.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you move backwards that doesn’t force your opponent forwards, that’s just an option for them. Anderson Silva’s had a few fights lately where they chose the other option, for example.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it forces them to engage OR lose a boring decision. Either way it’s effective.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They can also win a boring decision. They can do all sorts of things, the point is they aren’t being forced to do any of them, they aren’t being controlled.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are being controlled. If you don’t allow your opponenent to do what THEY want you ARE controlling them and the action. That’s what counter fighters do.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re taking control when they counter, not when they evade.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. It seems very clear to me that in this, and every other combat sport, people understand the effective evasiveness shows just as much control of the fight as effective aggression.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Effective evasiveness would include counters, which is not where this discussion started. I agree with that though, even though it wasn’t your point.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And there’s a fine line between elusiveness and Kalib style freaking out backpedalling with no other plan than to get the hell out of the way. In my opinion there’s a difference. Machida is elusive as it leads to his overall strategy to whack his opponenst with points or a knockout.
by Dooda on Oct 26, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Evasion isn’t control.”
Then why was Tito so pissed off during his fight with Machida?
by ufc4 on Oct 26, 2009 2:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
because Machida evaded, but still hit him at will.
yah evasion is control in a sense. If you get into a fight and you run away you are using “control” to turn it into a track match instead of a fight. In a fighting sport though only control that relates to fighting is important. The defensive control you get from evasion is meaningless to me unless you use it counter
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Aggression is one of the supposed judging criteria facepalm
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 26, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was Machida’s evasion and countering really effective if Shogun hit him more?
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 26, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it was, I thought Shogun won. I’m just pointing out that aggression doesn’t equal having octagon control.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Octagon Control
J. Octagon Control
1. The fighter who is dictating the pace, place and position of the fight.
2. A striker who fends off a grappler’s takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
3. A grappler who can takedown an effective standing striker to ground fight is octagon control.
4. The fighter on the ground who creates submission, mount or clean striking opportunities
I guess that could be taken to either fighter, but IMO shogun dictated the pace, place, and position of the fight. He took the the center of the octagon and stalked machida. I understand that Machida’s game is elusiveness but IMO he wasn’t the one controlling the octagon.
by TannerMatthews on Oct 26, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s what I was thinking just because Machida’s game is to back away and stay elusive the rules shouldn’t be tailored for his style
by drano on Oct 26, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking the same thing since he scored takedown defense as effective grappling wouldn’t you score putting someone up against the fence and attempting a takedown as octagon control
by drano on Oct 26, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“First of all what you need to understand is that from where the judges are sitting, we get to see things that the fans at home may miss.
Also miss the things we see.
You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that.
What…
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, those two statements are undeniably ignorant.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 26, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
be wary, Cage Report publishes fake quotes all the time...
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 26, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Aw, dang it. So this is an MMA Bay situation?
Thanks, I’ll keep that in mind in the future.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
they're the ones responsible for this
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/9/15/1031286/floyd-mayweather-blasts-mma
and a bunch of other fake quotes found in the comments section of the post.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 26, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow cagereport again
It’s obviously fake.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
by Venom77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cecil Peoples Understanding of MMA
I’m going to copy my response to this nonsense directly from Meltzer’s site:
I would have to see the CSAC rules for MMA, but having seen both the NSAC and MDSAC rules, it seems to me that Cecil Peoples is ignoring the rules stating that damage done and ring/cage control are factors to consider when scoring a round.
To suggest that Lyoto’s shots were so much cleaner that they negated the other two advantages enjoyed by Shogun throughout the majority of the fight is disingenuous as best and proof of incompetence at worst.
For Peoples to pull rank, flying in the face of overwhelming sentiment against his own, is intellectually insulting. God forbid we “understand the technicalities of the sport” in the same way that Cecil Peoples does. He’s a buffon who has failed to correctly score the fights on which he is paid to adjudicate time after time after time.
His only valid point is that the other two judges also found for the fight in favor of Machida. However, only Marcos Rosales scored the fight the same way as Cecil Peoples. Doc Hamilton scored the fourth round for Machida, whereas Rosales and Peoples did not. Does it then follow that Cecil Peoples feels that Doc Hamilton does not understand the technicalities of MMA? While he may not (really, how the fuck do you give round 4 to Machida?), it has nothing to do with whether or not his scoring was the same as Cecil Peoples.
If there is a failure to interpret the scoring system in MMA by the officials assigned to each match, then either those officials need to be replaced immediately or clarification needs to be provided. Or, preferably, both things should happen.
Sure, there are a lot of dopey MMA fans out there that don’t know the difference between the guard on the ground and keeping your guard up on the feet. In this case, however, it’s not simply the dopes who feels Peoples has erred. The fact that other judges also erred does not justify his error, it simply highlights the utter failure of the judging in MMA. If it’s not the human beings scoring the fights causing the problem, it’s the scoring system, either the explanation thereof or the application, but changes are needed.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Additionally, that’s a really great picture of Cecil Peoples.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
CECILCIZING!
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 26, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That pic never gets old.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 26, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s not intellectually insulting to fly in the face of overwhelming sentiment. Using “overwhelming sentiment” as a reason someone should shut up is intellectually insulting.
by toxic on Oct 26, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It is to me. He’s saying “hey you, who watched the fight and saw one man best another: you’re wrong. All the time you spent watching MMA, learning about the sport, practicing the sport? That was bullshit.”
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is not, for example, a circumstance where the vast majority of the world felt the Earth was flat. It’s not that. In this case, the populace seems to have a better understanding of how MMA scoring actually works, which is fascinating when comparing to a licensed MMA judge.
Unless there’s some enlightening event that will open the eyes of those of us who are blind to the truth of MMA judging like explorers circumnavigating the Earth, then I’m just going to go ahead and stick by my opinion on a likely bogus quote.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you are proposing to set up an applause meter to determine who won fights?
He took a position, he defended it. That’s not intellectually insulting.
by toxic on Oct 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that he didn’t, because this article is (likely) fake. Also, his position (if real, which it’s not) is wrong, and is defended by suggesting that, because he’s got this superior technical understanding of MMA. That is intellectually insulting, because he has no such thing based on multiple scoring indiscretions, regardless of the veracity of this quote.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you getting so worked up about a (likely) false, imaginary quote by someone masquerading as Cecil Peoples?
by bigweeze on Oct 26, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because I’m an idiot.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you are proposing to set up an applause meter to determine who won fights?
What a lame strategy, putting words in someone’s mouth.
Clearly you’ve latched on to one phrase that I used and completely ignored my suggestion to replace judges with those more qualified, clarify the rules by which fights are scored, and ideally overhaul the scoring system itself. Instead, you seem to prefer to argue phrasing. What a waste.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing is that even with more qualified judges, you will get decisions that some people will think are crap, or that the clarified rules are crap, or a judges interpretation of those clarified rules don’t count. Doesn’t really matter. Judging a fight is a subjective thing, and unless we just give the decision to whoever landed the most according to compustrike, controversy will remain.
My main point was that it is perfectly ok to defy the opinion of everyone else in the world. It’s not intellectually dishonest to do so. You can be wrong as hell, but as long as you’re trying to make a legitimate argument, you can defy the entire world without insulting anyone’s intellect. What’s wrong is acting like its offensive for someone to disagree with you, which is what you are doing.
by toxic on Oct 26, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, let me just re-iterate that this article is likely bogus. I’m arguing your point more than what he (probably) did (not) say.
Having someone disagree with me when my conclusions are based on the letter of the regulations for scoring in MMA is offensive. Again, if California does not explicitly state that ring/cage control and damage done are primary ways to win a round, then I suppose Cecil Peoples is accurate in his (fake) assessment. You’ll have to excuse me for operating under the assumption that two of the most basic elements to combat sports scoring are a part of the regulations held by the CSAC, then initially operating under the assumption that the quote attributed to Cecil Peoples was legitimate. Under that scenario, yes, it’s offensive to have a dissenting opinion from me in the same way that it would offend me if someone tried to justify their belief that a million dollars isn’t real because they’ve never seen one million dollars with their own eyes.
Justifying failure doesn’t make it any less of a failure.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, those applause meters are bogus. I’m sure of it. They have some tech nerd just toying with the people screaming their faces blue, but that’s another conspiracy.
by Dooda on Oct 26, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Props to Cecil
He certainly didn’t need to justify his scoring and the fact that he has just reinforces my already held belief that the judges in MMA have a very difficult time scoring a fight.
They don’t have the benefit of multiple camera angles or slow-motion replays; their sole source of information is their eyeballs from a fixed position.
Having been elbow-to-elbow with Peoples and other judges whilst shooting UFC events I can say that having a fixed viewpoint does not help; that’s why you can have variances such as split decisions and so on… what one judge sees might be tangibly different from the physical view of the other two judges.
I could (and probably will) elaborate some on select fights that I’ve watched and from my fixed position and thought “wow, fighter X is getting his ass handed to him…” only to watch it later at home on DVR and have a completely different view of the fight play out in front of me.
by VikingPhotography on Oct 26, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is the biggest problem with judging. They wouldn’t make commentators work without monitors, so why the judges?
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Lyoto runs back, he’s controlling the octagon… he’s always trying to finish the fight.
Lyoto Machida is officially the new Chuck Norris.
by NinjaCodah on Oct 26, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Regarding the update...
It is my understanding that judges are not to explain publicly the dec. Maybe this is different in CA, but it is not common so I figure it is standard that discussing the dec in public is disallowed.
by szucconi on Oct 26, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would totally disagree that watching an eleveated surface from below, while looking through a chain link fence, in a static location, is preferable to watching it in HD from the best angles to view the the action.
by Madskillz on Oct 26, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cage Report also made up those Tiki quotes on it’s front page that were then widely reported by the blogosphere.
by An0nymous on Oct 26, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In fact, for any UG users out there, I’m almost certain it’s the personal troll site of UG forummer “gangsta101”, who as also the first to make threads on the UG on the bullshit Floyd and Tiki quotes:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/?go=forum.posts&thread=1543001&forum=1&page=1&pc=88
by An0nymous on Oct 26, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“You know what If Dana (White) signs the fight, I’ll put on weight just so I can fight him. It’s unfortunate that Rampage has other matters to attend to but I would be more than willing to fill in his position for him, just so I could teach that cocky prick a lesson. People have told me for years that I am the most talented fighter to have never won in the UFC, I think this is a perfect fight to get me in that win column, and to expose a loud mouth with subpar skills.”
LOL. he is creative. hahaha. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 26, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
deleted my thread, yah I hope this is a hoax because it’s terribad.
He’s saying 1. Avoiding fighting is octagon control 2. You are effectively penalized for not finishing takedowns 3. leg kicks are pointless
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 26, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you guys seriously read what you type and think anyone can take your point seriously? You’re #1 is the same tired argument people use to have about Machida before he fought Thiago Silva. You can control the octagon and the fight by being elusive and that’s been evidenced many times.
As for your second point, why would you get points for NOT scoring a takedown? When does that make sense?
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for evasion, if he evaded and then countered effectively than yah he controlled the fight. I didn’t see that happening. If you go on just pure evasion then yah Kalib Starnes is a master of control.
you shouldn’t get points for not finishing a takedown but the other guy shouldn’t get points for stopping your takedown. That doesn’t seem dumb to you?
If a takedown fails it should be considered an even exchange.
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 26, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did counter, though. Did I think it was as effective as what Rua was doing? No. Do I understand why someone else could see that differently, especially considering that’s how Lyoto usually fights? Yes.
If you’re trying to do something to me and I nullify it, I won that grappling exchange. I don’t think it should count for much and in the context of this fight I think it should be a wash since initiating grappling clearly implies that Shogun was controlling the action at that point.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Typical
This is clearly typical of a BOXING judge…leg kicks dont finish a fight…need to train these judges in MMA.
by l2ufi0 on Oct 26, 2009 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Leg kicks don't finish fights...
they certainly facilitate other attempts to finish a fight, but they, in themselves, don’t finish fights.
by Razreshat on Oct 26, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pat Barry finished Dan Evensen
with a leg kick. So there.
Win 4-0 Norway Dan Evensen TKO (Leg Kicks) UFC 92: The Ultimate 2008 02008-12-27 December 27, 2008 1 2:36
by Trysdor on Oct 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vera over Patt
UFC 96, TKO via leg kicks.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys got me, 0.00001% of MMA fights have been finished via leg kicks.
I wonder if either Parry or Vera went into the fight intending to finish it via leg kicks, or if that happened as a happy accident on their way to using leg kicks to facilitate their fight style…
by Razreshat on Oct 26, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Happy accident? No, the point is that leg kicks creates damage, much damage, and if leg kicks are coming in and accumulating, it’s more damaging than jabs that don’t phase the other fighter, therefore it should have more merit. Weigh in the leg kicks Shogun landed and the jabs he received and see how it influenced both competitors as the fight went on, Shogun was fresh in the 4th round and Machida was limping around…
Many fights don’t end with a slam, would you not give points for them either?
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got you?
I just pointed out a leg kick KO. I didn’t invisible-ink some “Razreshat is so wrong” comment.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine, not trying to be belegerant.
But the intent of the leg kick isn’t to finish a fight, even if it does on rare occasions through accumulation of damage.
The purpose is to affect your opponent in a way that either makes them change their tactics (due to damage or fear of damage) or to set them up for a different and more fight ending tactic (like a head kick).
Should they receive some value in judging, sure, but not as much as a tactic that is directly attempting to finish the fight, and has a history of doing so.
by Razreshat on Oct 26, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get it d00d. And it is an extreme rarity, but it has happened. I personally don’t agree you should win fights via leg kicks, and think that those who apply that as an explanation for Forrest’s “victory” over Rampage are nurtz.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope Cecil didn’t judge the Forrest/Rampage fight because then he would make himself look silly.
SHOGUN SLAYED THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN GOT ROBBED FROM HIS LHW TITLE!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get what he's saying
I’m reposting this comment from another thread. Whether said by Cecil or not, there are some points that bear mentioning why I think Machida deserved the close decision:
When watching the fight, I thought Shogun did enough to make a case for a win, but knew Lyoto would get the decision because he made certain moves at crucial times that displayed control and generalship that could have given judges the impression he was winning.
Case in point is the clinch and knees from the first round. Another is Lyoto’s takedown defense in the later rounds where it looked like he was defending takedowns from a Shogun that was frustrated on the feet. There are other examples throughout the fight.
It would have been great to see Shogun win, but it was a hell of a fight. The rematch should be awesome.
by cyke on Oct 26, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!????
That’s the problem when you have boxing judges judging the outcome of MMA fights. Leg kicks don’t finish fights? Are you kidding me!? I’m not sure what fight Cecil was looking at. I sure didn’t miss anything at home. Rua completely dominated the whole fight. Clean, and accurate striking?!! Machida was busted up! Cut on the bridge of his nose, cut on the lip, badly bruised rib cage….it seems that Rua’s striking was clean and accurate enough to cause damage to the “Untouchable” Machida. This judging was absolutely bogus. Rua won every rd with the exception of the 2nd round where I think it was a draw. Aside from that, Rua had Machida completely flustered.
That’s the first time I’ve seen anyone take Machida out of his game. Rua’s Muy Thai was brutal. Those leg kicks, and body strikes, broke Machida down. The amazing thing is that I was going for Machida. I didn’t think Rua had any chance…..but after watching the fight; not only do I think Rua beat Machida….I think he beat him convincingly.
In boxing, the term is; You have to take the belt away from the champ. Rua kicked, and knee’d his way to a victory. He was robbed. Highway robbery I say! I hope Rua KO’s Machida next time out…..this is crazy cause I’m a Machida fan! lol
by JAFOrlando26 on Oct 26, 2009 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s blind, but I guess he knows what MT is…
by dancingChicken on Oct 26, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dressed up like Lil John for Halloween last year, but that doesn’t mean I know what the hell “crunk” is.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or how to spell his name, apparently.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
“Cecil was also named The National Black Belt Official of the year in 1998 and in 1999 he was inducted into the International Muay Thai Federation Hall of Fame.”
http://www.usadojo.com/biographies/by-terry-wilson/cecil-peoples-tw.htm
by dancingChicken on Oct 26, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A judge actually came out and said something? That’s weird.
SHOGUN SLAYED THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN GOT ROBBED FROM HIS LHW TITLE!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Come on now Cecil..
“Lyoto was landing the more cleaner and damaging strikes throughout the fight – if you take a look at the judging criteria clean strikes are valued more-so than the quantity of strikes landed. Although Rua threw a lot of low kicks they were not as damaging as Lyotos diverse attack”
I’m going to have to disagree with that on the basis that Machida is still laying in bed unable to walk today..
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don't do that."
Tell that to the guy Pat Barry made quit from leg kicks..
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right on oasis77
Machida was hurt. Those ribs were smashed!
by JAFOrlando26 on Oct 26, 2009 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The most important point he makes.......
“I’m just glad the other judges on the panel saw it the same way”
Seriously, I loved the fight and can’t wait for the rematch. I find it baffling that nobody places any importance on the fact that all three judges scored it for Machida. That has to count for something but everyone has their panties in such a bunch over the whole thing that they miss this most telling fact. Majority rules people.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and isn’t it strange to you that basically everyone in attendance clearly booed the decision? How about that for majority?
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, so lets let the crowd determine the winner of these fights. That makes a lot of sense.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying that at all, but don’t you find it strange that the decision was booed so vehemenently? Most deciions aren’t booed that way unless the crowd saw it 100% different.
I might add most viewers thought it was a crappy deciision as did Dana White.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear the crowd booing all kinds of shit all the time, including decisions.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol, ok dude whatever. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s possible for 3 people to be wrong.
by omigawda on Oct 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We can agree that it was a good fight though right?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn’;t about it being a good fight or not pal. It’s about crappy judging that is a huge problem.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather watch a great fight with a terrible decision than a boring fight with the right decision.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So justice is of no concern to you? I would guess the fighters feel a bit different. And IMO, I want the guy who deserved to win the fight rewaded. Yuo shoudln’t have to seperate the 2.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ofcourse the fighter’s would feel differently about it. They are the ones fighting for a win. I am a fan of good MMA fights and I got to see a great fight Saturday night. I am as sick of this topic (whining about judging) as I was about GSP greasing. I am a fan of fights and fighters. I am not an advocate for fair judging. You all should try it. I was happy after the fight. I was a little surprised but still very happy.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I whole-heartedly disagree.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, so after reading that article there is no way Cecil said those things are defended the decision. There is no way someone that thinks that way is able to get a license to judge an MMA fight.
He couldn’t have indicated kicks clearly don’t end fights could he have? Also the part about octagon control?
No way.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I recognize the fact that Rua did have a few takedown attempts during the course of the fight however Lyoto defended them all successfully which counts as effective grappling in his favour, where as ununsuccessful takedown attempts are not scored at all.
so take down defense has more merits than take down attempts? they should just cancel each other out.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's an idea
In Championship fights…no judges.
by Reciprocity on Oct 26, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So.....
Just fight til someone gets KO’d or subbed?
by ufc4 on Oct 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the idea is that if the fight goes the distance, the champion retains his belt.
I think it’s a good idea in theory (making the challenger stop the champ), but it’s not really practical in a sport fight.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better idea: in Burmese Boxing if you get knocked out, they wake you up and you have a chance to continue fighting. When you get Ko’ed 3 time the fight is over. Not exactly healthy but what a FUN!
by dancingChicken on Oct 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon “The Truth” Vera
Win Michael Patt TKO (Leg Kicks) UFC 96 – Jackson vs. Jardine 3/7/2009 2 1:27
SHOGUN SLAYED THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN GOT ROBBED FROM HIS LHW TITLE!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Patrick “Get Hype” Barry
Win Dan Evensen TKO (Low Kicks) UFC 92 – The Ultimate 2008 12/27/2008 1 2:36
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Oct 26, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that."
He should never be allowed to judge another mixed martial arts contest for that comments alone. He is an idiot who obviously knows nothign of the sport. I literally spit on the floor in disgust when I read that. Luckily I am at work….
by Nick Travaglini on Oct 26, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that comment made me a bit suspicious of the articles validity. I mean, there is no way a judge in MMA thinks that way is there? At this level??
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a very suspicious article, indeed.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 26, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does he feel about body punches?
I’ve witnessed both body punches and leg kicks stop a fight….but I wonder if Cecil puts body shots in the catagory as Leg kicks?
That would kind of limit your options if Cecil were judging your fight…the only way to win would be back-peddle and face punch
by MMA_Messiah on Oct 26, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We need the pic of the Cecil Peoples figurine.
by ufc4 on Oct 26, 2009 2:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Hahahahahaha, LOLOLOLOL, LMFAO
Gets me every time.
by ufc4 on Oct 26, 2009 4:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
If that were real,I’d actually buy it.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 26, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The judges can come out and justify it however they like… but they always miss the real reason for their decision:
THEY ALWAYS GIVE THE CLOSE ROUNDS TO THE FAN FAVORITE.
Somehow these idiots have added a new criteria in the judging mix next to “effective striking, grappling and octagon control” with:
“which fighter is the crowd chanting”.
by mmalogic on Oct 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I've avoided this conversation for a few days
I don’t like perpetuating controversy in MMA. Maybe I’m trying to be an optimist because I get to see these two go at it again after learning so much about each other and Shogun knowing he almost certainly has to knock out Machida. But I agree with the synopsis that this is a controversial decision moreso than a travesty. I rewatched the fight last night (on mute & sober) and while I still scored it for Shogun, the scoring criteria for MMA judges is terribly subjective and needs to be reevaluated. That’s the more pressing issue than the fact that Shogun may have won that fight. But it is worth repeating— we’re going to get to watch these two fight again. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I loved that fight and I’m thrilled beyond belief that Shogun is back to form.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Japan usually does not have this problem, make it who won the fight as a whole instead of the 10 must system rule, and we’re set!
PS:
I loved that fight and I’m thrilled beyond belief that Shogun is back to form.
Couldn’t agree more with you, although I already knew Shogun was back to form :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well now everyone knows.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
true, I’m glad he’s getting respect at least, it’s a far cry from being “washed up” and “can’t compete without the roids” and “overrated” for sure!
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun showed a lot more than in his pride fights in my opinion.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 26, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
He was more technical than he may have been when it was legal to kick people’s faces on the ground, and has never had to fight as technically as he had to while fighting Machida. I’d say he’s the same Shogun as he was at his peak (and may be peaking again, now that he’s healthy).
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
shogun vs lil' nog
one of the most technical fights in history brother (and non stop action) :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Little Nog won that fight, so this is just karmic revenge :p
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way lil' nog won
it was back and forth, but Shogun was the clear victor, he did the most damage overall, had more knock downs, and top control when it went to the ground. Now that I think about it, it would be nice to try to score that fight round by round to see what happens (especially since the first round is a 10 mim round). Would we still get Shogun with the decision? I should try to watch that again this week :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
best hl done for shogun covers whole gp
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x28q3a_grand-theft-title-saitama-city_extreme
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watching it again for fun, to see if it went down like I remember =)
4 mins in, Shogun had control until Nog dropped him with a hook. Shogun takes him down to recover and avoids a slick armbar from Nog. So far Nog has to be well ahead.
I’m 10 mins in now. Shogun is more aggressive and more often has top control with some nice ground and pound. Standing up Nog is clearly winning with the 1 knock down from earlier and twice since he has stumbled Rua. The main PRIDE judging factor is trying to finish the fight and if it was over now, Nog has a pretty big advantage. Now for the rest of the fight.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Round 2
If this was UFC, Shogun wins the round easy. Neither fighter makes a real effort to finish the fight. Rua has some nice GnP and Nog tries to catch him in an armbar a couple of times. Neither guy is close to being finished.
At this point Nog still gets the nod, since he has done more damage and been closer to finishing the fight.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Round 3
Another round Shogun wins in the UFC. Interesting for me to note how different it would have gone in the States. Anyway…
Standup is even again, to start. Shogun gets stung and comes back with a huge shot that knocks Nog down. That puts them to even in the knockdowns for the fight. Most of the rest of the round is Shogun with GnP, but it much better than the previous rounds. I don’t know why Nog is pulling guard, it ain’t helping him.
Nog gets aggressive in the stand up, gets a take down but loses position for trying to stand up and soccer kick Shogun. Damn I forgot how awesome that fight was.
I still give it to Nog under PRIDE rules, but it’s way closer than I remembered. Knockdowns were even, but Nog staggered Rua more so I give the advantage to finish the fight standing to Nog. On the ground Shogun really didn’t look to finish until the final round with some stomps etc. while Nog had multiple submission attempts.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I gotta watch that again, because it’s been a while, but I’ve seen it many times before and always felt Shogun had it for sure.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should, man. I forgot how classic it was. It was the fight where I really began to appreciate how good both of those guys were. The highlight of the GP, for me.
Most fights I get kinda bored watching again since I can remember them pretty accurately. I wasn’t bored in the LEAST on that one.
Hope you enjoy the re-watch as much as I did =)
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
this was the fight that cemented Shogun as one of my favs (lil’ nog too), he only falls short to Wandy in my list of favorite fighters.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wandy is my favorite fighter of all time
This is why I’m sad all the time. :(
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
me too, but he’ll make a comeback, you’ll see :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope that somehow he and Akiyama can both win, and somehow they’re raising each others hands with Bisping knocked out in the middle of the octagon. Can you make that happen?
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope sorry
sexyama gonna become uglyama pretty soon, and sure, throw wandy a bone and have bisping KO’d in the middle of the octagon too for a treat haha
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was soooo hoping for Wandy/Bisping.
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he was more reserved than usual, but I think that was just their strategy given that he was fighting Lyoto after all. But I always viewed Shogun as an intelligent fighter who changes pace when he needs to, and since this strategy was working for him (even though the judges didn’t see it) I think is the reason why he kept with it.
Also, he’s done a lot of growing up, he was 23 when he was running over everyone.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I REAAAALLLLLY hope this is fake. Actually… no, I don’t. I hope it’s real and this demonstration of his egregious lack of knowledge of MMA forces the commissions to either A) not hire him any more B) fire him outright.
by KrmtDfrog on Oct 26, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
but we still have two other judges that fucked this up big time, we need to re-evaluate how MMA bouts are judged.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's easy to
get carried away by joe rogan screaming about shogun’s leg kicks, but re-watching the fight, lyoto was also firing back with a lot of punches during those exchanges
by theblade on Oct 26, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let’;s be honest here, Lyoto was a defeated and battered man in that 5th round while Shogun looked fresh and energetic. It doesn’t take a genius to see who the victor was at the end of the fight.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't matter how they looked
That criteria is applicable in PRIDE, but not domestically. I’ve personally touted the fact that physical damage is not a reasonable criteria, because it automatically handicaps more experienced fighters that have developed scar tissue and/or are bleeders.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pride did not evaluate a fight on how each fighter looked at the end of a bout, just evaluated a fight as a whole, which is the best system to be fair.
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They certainly did
It was criteria to that end; physical damage was highly regarded in evaluating the victor of a fight. It’s always been that way in Japanese MMA and is even that way now (Sengoku, DREAM).
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t view it that way, and looking back I don’t remember many bouts that I disagreed with (although there are a few, it’s not as much as with the US).
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless
My point is that I don’t agree that damage should be a criteria for judgment, though the quality of the strikes that may have consequently caused that damage certainly should be.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that the regulatory bodies here will always demand a round by round point system, for accountability purposes strangely enough. Maybe the last round of a fight should be worth an extra point to reflect the direction the fight is going when it ends. 11-9 to the round 5 winner in a championship bout.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 26, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you look at the fight as a whole, Shogun clearly won. If you look at it in round by round segments it’s less clear.
by VegasBatman on Oct 26, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the thing is,
fights in the ufc aren’t judged as a whole, so that goes out the window,
just after watching the fight, i was also saying “robbery,” but now, after re-watching the
fight, that’s less clear to me
by theblade on Oct 26, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
after re-watching it
I still have Shogun, just such a bad decision….
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's your perception,
i can accept the battered part of your statement, but defeated?
by theblade on Oct 26, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, people are wrong when they say “This was a very close fight”. what they mean is: “The first 3 rounds were very close making the score potentially close”.
When the bout ended it’s pretty clear which fighter got his ass kicked and which fighter did that kicking.
by mmalogic on Oct 26, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dana also said that
round 1 was a toss up, however, i think the knees that machida threw on 2 separate occasions stood out to me when i rewatched the fight, and because of that, i can understand the judge/s who scored the first round for machida
by theblade on Oct 26, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
that’s actually the only round I gave Machida
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forget all this crap! WHEN IS THE REMATCH?!!!!
New Years show?!
SHOGUN SLAYED THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN GOT ROBBED FROM HIS LHW TITLE!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Yes please
Thank you.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 26, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh hell yes.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 26, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope so too
as soon as possible!
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
^ This....Finally
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on Oct 26, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That might be too soon. Meltzer speculated that it would be around the end of February.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hadouken!
[Shogun beat the piss outta Machida then got robbed from his UFC LHW Title.]
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
haha
I love that pic!
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
=P
[Shogun beat the piss outta Machida then got robbed from his UFC LHW Title.]
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
back to 2005 gp form!! lets just hope wandy silences his haters 2 in Australia….i <3 exciting fighters
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wanderlei by murder in the first degree!
I feel bad for sexyama, he ain’t gonna be sexy for very long haha
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we need some pride rules in ufc please make all the guidas and machidas put up or pay up… from the pride website “if fighters commit the following actions, they shall be given a red card by officials: Stalling or failure to initiate any offensive attack, making no attempt to finalize the match or damage the opponent, and holding the opponent’s body with the arms and legs to produce a stalemate. A red card results in a 10% deduction/fine of the fighter’s fight purse.” helllllssss yea
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
facepalm.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the yellow card and Pride rules in general
such as the judges criteria for who wins a fight, but I don’t think a yellow card would have been necessary for the Shogun/Machida bout
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with the yellow card is that greedy promoters can make deals with officials to be liberal with the yellow card. I suppose it would be less likely in a commission state than in Japan where everybody is on the take (SWEEPING GENERALIZATIONS!), but we know that officials can still be bought and paid for. Not necessarily in MMA, but probably.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just can’t think that way, because if a referee could be bought to do that, they could also be bought today to favor one fighter over another, so I just don’t think that far and trust the commissions are 100% legit, otherwise I would not enjoy my MMA :P
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was on my feet for the machida/shogun!!! They were very hesitant of one another though these rules would give them the incentive to press the action not just take the safe route just “looking for the win”.
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The rematch would be so much better if there was actual bad blood between these guys. The build up would be that more electric.
That’s why I want to see Rashad and Page go at it.
by oasis77 on Oct 26, 2009 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
AGREED but i doubt we will ever see bad blood between these 2 respectful ex training partners
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
the UFC can play with their interviews and have some type of bad blood going on for the countdown shows, such as;
Machida: I won the fight. I don’t judge the fights, that’s why we have judges and they saw it my way. Shogun is a cry baby
Shogun: I won the fight, DW knows it, the UFC knows it, the fans knows it, Machida is full of shit
Machida is a god
I now drink my urine daily
by orcus on Oct 26, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice.
Shogun beat the piss outta Machida then got robbed from his UFC LHW Title.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First off: Cecil Peoples is in the Karate Hall of Fame. It would be virtually impossible for him to forget all his years of experience in the karate world while scoring an MMA fight. So, he more than likely is swayed by the point fighting style in karate, which Machida tends to employ in his fights. Hardly an unbiased, objective judge, especially when it comes to someone like Machida. The commission should have known better.
Second: Cecil Peoples is incompetent. We all know this. Perhaps the extent of the criticism levied against him is a bit unwarranted, but when Cecil does strike, so to speak, it’s rather ugly. This is one of those times. Assuming these quotes are really his, he shows a woeful lack of understanding of the MMA game. To say that backpedaling is akin to pushing the pace of the fight is absurd. He goes on to say that Shogun wasn’t landing the more damaging shots. Uh, what? And on what planet was Machida “trying to end the fight” more consistently than Shogun? Machida had that one serious flurry where he charged at what he thought was a stunned Shogun and quickly backed off when nothing came of it.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Oct 26, 2009 3:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Cecil Peoples is in the Karate Hall of Fame.
So is Bill “Superfoot” Wallace, but if you’ve ever watched UFC 1, you understand that he has just about no idea what the hell is going on in MMA.
Though, in fairness to Bill, neither did most of the competitors.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Oct 26, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If this is truly Cecil Peoples and the examples he gave are actually how they score fights, then this is truly a sad day for MMA.
by Ahhhoki on Oct 26, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You mean you don’t think backing up 95% of the time is effective ring control? Or getting kicked over and over in the leg and body is effective striking? Whats wrong with you? Just kidding, Cecils logic sucks. Its like he looks at it as if okay well one guy took 10 times as much damage but he looked prettier doing it so we will give him the win. Stupid.
by attgnp on Oct 26, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly!!!! machida won the first 3 rounds!! shogun took the last 2!! how is this a robbery?! watch it again on mute!!
dont listen to rogan’s dumb ass!! watch it again!! machida won!! get over it
by youngsane510 on Oct 26, 2009 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But how could Machida have won if Shogun won?
[Shogun beat the piss outta Machida then got robbed from his UFC LHW Title.]
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 26, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
shakes you a few times
You gotta wake up dude, you are gonna be late to school!
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=news.detail&gid=23289
LOS ANGELES, October 24 – Lyoto Machida is human. He also remains the UFC light heavyweight champion after a grueling five round unanimous decision win over Mauricio Rua Saturday night at STAPLES Center in a bout that may have shown more about the challenger than the champion, as ‘Shogun’ finally showed UFC fans the form that him terrorizing 205-pounders in Japan’s PRIDE organization from 2003 to 2007.
……
With the win, Machida improves to 16-0 and becomes the first UFC light heavyweight champion since Quinton ‘Rampage’ Jackson to successfully defend the crown; Rua falls to 18-4.
Not sure if you heard or not.
by ufc4 on Oct 27, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
watch machida’s face when they call him as the winner….. the surprise and the cuts….
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 26, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair as it concerns that....
A lot of fighters have famously said they had no idea whether they’d won or lost when going to the judges. I imagine a guy that had never lost a round is going to be pretty skeptical about his success after enduring the damage he did. Not exactly all telling…
"I’m sorry. I didn’t drink last night, so I’m not funny today."
-Sakuraba
by Blackout612 on Oct 27, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also had to face Yoshizo after that performance…
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 27, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I refuse to listen to this man.
"Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." - Bullet Tooth Tony
@deowade
by Deo Wade on Oct 26, 2009 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
did he just saw that unsuccessful takedown attempts dont count for anything, um thats agression, thats controllling the fight
by ZeroZ20 on Oct 26, 2009 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
oh and leg kicks dont end fights?? who remembers the Dan Evensen and Pat Barry!!!!! MMA Judges suck
by ZeroZ20 on Oct 26, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Peoples explanation is garbage
" You have to keep in mind we always the favour the fighter who is trying to finish the fight, and leg kicks certainly don’t do that" BLASPHEMY!!!!
I’m wondering if the first part of statement only applies to striking. Because the lay and pray will win a round compared to the guy in the guard ATTEMPTING to END the fight with a submission. So lay and pray is an attempt to finish the fight? No consistancy there. Leg kicks ending a fight? Really? Has this guy ever goten kicked by a martial artist. That $#it hurts! Cecil Peoples is garbage. Better off not even coming out with such a felonious statement. *end rant*
by nochapi on Oct 26, 2009 8:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This article was just linked on Machida’s Twitter:
lyotomachidafw Before Lyoto speaks his thoughts we send to you the Judge’s opinion about the fight: http://bit.ly/1W5yFb (Marketing Assistant)
by ufc4 on Oct 26, 2009 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I sent him a message letting him know it might not be an actual Cecil People’s quote
Giving Shogun his props. I had the fight 48-47 Machida but Shogun put up a monumental performance and I am honored to have seen it in person.
by Day Man on Oct 26, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whelp, Rua’s leg kicks certainly didn’t end this fight. They battered Machida’s legs, but they didn’t knock him unconcsious, or stop him from fighting. At best, leg kicks are a type of defense that nullifies your opponents offense. He can’t move fast, he can’t punch hard, he can’t shoot for takedowns as well, but to actually finish, you usually need to transition from leg kicks to high kicks or punches to the freak’in face.
In round 5 Shogun clearly wasn’t finishing and I couldn’t understand that as I had the first round as a tossup, and the 2nd and 3rd to Machida. Rua was clearly in the drivers seat in the 5th, but he didn’t attack the head in the 5th when there clearly wasn’t any downside in doing so. The Rua supporters should be upset at him for not trying to kill in the 5th when he could’ve.
Peoples’ explanation was all right to me, but people pull whatever they want out of it and slant it to suit their desires.
by Dooda on Oct 26, 2009 11:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
^
both were trigger shy and shogun didn’t do enough to sway the judges’ decision.
by funkdabootiest on Oct 27, 2009 6:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHA what a utter BS
Shogun clearly inflicted MORE DAMAGE n MORE AGGRESSION.
Landed much more powerful strikes n fucked Machida up in the clinch.
Look at Machida’s face, thighs, and ribs.
IT WAS MACHIDA WHO HAD NO MOTIVATION/WILLPOWER TO FINISH THE FIGHT. So called champion’s mentality.
You have to beat the legend, in order to become the LEGEND
-Melvin Manhoef (after his destruction of Sakuraba)
by chopstickthugz on Oct 27, 2009 4:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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