UFC 104 Fallout: It was a Close and Controversial Decision, Not a Robbery
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
83 comments
Last night's main event fight between Lyoto Machida and Shogun Rua had a bunch of fans screaming "robbery". It was close, controversial, and you may disagree with the decision, but no, it wasn't a robbery. To refresh your memories, I again bring up a quote from the excellent piece by BadLeftHook's Brickhaus:
What is a robbery in boxing? Here's a hint - it's not a decision that you merely disagree with. It's a decision that is impossible; that there's no reasonable way the judges could have scored the fight in favor of the fighter who actually won.
Lyoto Machida vs Shogun Rua was a very close fight. It was a controversial decision because people are arguing about it, but it wasn't a robbery. (see Beebe/Eason). Pretty simple right? But some people aren't satisfied, they say "It's impossible. No way! the fight wasn't even close" or "How is it not a robbery when all the top websites like Bloodyelbow, Sherdog, Yahoo, Fan House etc.. scored it for Shogun?"
Well to answer that, lets take a closer look on how those MMA experts, and the three judges scored the fight:
Round 1 Round 2 Jordan Breen 10-9 Machida Jordan Breen 10-9 Machida Brian Knapp 10-9 Rua Brian Knapp 10-9 Machida Mike Fridley 10-9 Rua Mike Fridley 10-9 Rua Cagewriter 10-9 Rua Cagewriter 10-9 Machida Mike Chiapetta 10-9 Rua Mike Chiapetta 10-9 Machida Michael David Smith 10-9 Machida Michael David Smith 10-9 Machida Josh Gross 10-9 Rua (changed it to 10-10 after re-watching it without sound) Josh Gross 10-9 Machida Kid Nate 10-9 Rua Kid Nate 10-10 tie Brent Brookhouse 10-9 Machida Brent Brookhouse 10-9 Machida Cecil Peoples 10-9 Machida Cecil Peoples 10-9 Machida Marcos Rosales 10-9 Machida Marcos Rosales 10-9 Machida 'Doc' Hamilton 10-9 Rua 'Doc' Hamilton 10-9 Machida Total: 5-Machida 7-Rua (6 if you count Josh's change) Total: 10-Machida 1-Rua 1-tie Round 3 Round 4 Jordan Breen 10-9 Rua Jordan Breen 10-9 Rua Brian Knapp 10-9 Machida Brian Knapp 10-9 Rua Mike Fridley 10-9 Rua Mike Fridley 10-9 Rua Cagewriter 10-9 Machida Cagewriter 10-9 Rua Mike Chiapetta 10-9 Machida Mike Chiapetta 10-9 Rua Michael David Smith 10-9 Rua Michael David Smith 10-9 Rua Josh Gross 10-9 Machida Josh Gross 10-9 Rua Kid Nate 10-9 Rua Kid Nate 10-9 Rua Brent Brookhouse 10-9 Machida Brent Brookhouse 10-9 Rua Cecil Peoples 10-9 Machida Cecil Peoples 10-9 Rua Marcos Rosales 10-9 Machida Marcos Rosales 10-9 Rua 'Doc' Hamilton 10-9 Machida 'Doc' Hamilton 10-9 Machida Total: 8-Machida 4-Rua Total: 1-Machida 11-Rua (What were you thinking Doc Hamilton?) Round 5 Jordan Breen 10-9 Rua Brian Knapp 10-9 Rua Mike Fridley 10-9 Rua Cagewriter 10-9 Rua Mike Chiapetta 10-9 Rua Michael David Smith 10-9 Rua Josh Gross 10-9 Rua Kid Nate 10-9 Rua Brent Brookhouse 10-9 Rua Cecil Peoples 10-9 Rua Marcos Rosales 10-9 Rua 'Doc' Hamilton 10-9 Rua Total: 0-Machida 12-Rua
*note: names in bold are the actual judges
Judging is subjective, and everyone sees fights differently. Based on this, the only rounds where the consensus agrees is Round 2 for Lyoto, and Rounds 4 and 5 for Rua. If rounds 1 and 3 'weren't even close' and if it was indeed a 'clear cut landslide victory for Shogun', wouldn't all these experts score it like they did for rounds 2, 4 and 5? Rounds 1 and 3 are the razor close ones and it is evidenced in the way most of the knowledgeable MMA guys scored it. Based the simple fact that all of them, even those who scored the fight for Shogun, those who were shouting "robbery", have various opinions on who won the close rounds, it shows the possibility for an outcome that has Lyoto squeaking through three rounds. It's not a robbery, it's just a decision in a very close fight that those people don't agree with.
It is also interesting to note that Judge "Doc" Hamilton was the only one who scored the fourth for Lyoto. For what reason? I have absolutely no idea, because Shogun won the last two decisively. Correcting that mistake would still make it a split-decision victory for Lyoto either way, but sadly, that would mean less people complaining about it.
Shogun Rua may have had solved the Machida puzzle. He would've clearly won the title had it been on PRIDE scoring. He may have even deserved to win that decision, but what's sure is that he certainly wasn't robbed.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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In the second pic that left straight must have been luck because his eyes are closed!
wait that only applies to Fedor/Arlovski
by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 25, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a close fight which shogun won… There’s a big outcry – even though it wasnt the worst decision in the sport – and it’s perceived as being the biggest robbery because Shogun overcame HUGE ODDS AND HUGE OBSTACLES and succeeded.
People love the underdog to overcome monumental challenges so most dont see shogun winning a close fight. They see Shogun return and Solve a puzzle and achieve something nobody else has and that’s why it becomes a “robbery” and more emotional.
by mmalogic on Oct 25, 2009 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
and yeah, I really think that machida’s aura of being unbeatable being shattered also had a huge effect on why there is a huge outcry from the fans..
But still, It was a really close fight which could’ve gone either way, so it really can’t be called a “robbery”..
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't close, and it was a robbery.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
No, I read the article.
But I figured I could sum up my thoughts better in one line than in an essay. If there is anything specific you need me to expand on, let me know – I’ll long form it for ya.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Anton. I felt that this wasn’t a robbery as well. While I personally felt that Shogun should have won (and this coming from me who’s favorite fighter is Machida), there definitely is a valid argument that Machida won three rounds and therefore wasn’t a robbery. I personally find it hard to believe that people gave Rua round 3 and thought that with the sequence at the end of the round where Machida had Rua against the cage that Machida stole that round. I feel that many fans should watch this fight over again as well because I think that with Rua finishing so strong at the end of the entire fight and just the fact that he solved the Machida puzzle that there is just further outcry from the fans.
by chrisbboy82 on Oct 25, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that with Rua finishing so strong at the end of the entire fight and just the fact that he solved the Machida puzzle that there is just further outcry from the fans.
very true…
even if he lost a controversial decision, Rua deserves mad fucking props. and they should’ve gotten that FOTN bonus.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and they should’ve gotten that FOTN bonus.
Which was another robbery. The Hardonk-Barry fight was good, but this really should have been FOTN… No idea how they thought differently.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably cause of the stupid fans booing and the controversy..
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me personally, I don’t think that I have ever seen such a technical standup fight like Rua vs Machida where every strike meant something. Hardonk-Barry was fun to watch, but I was on the edge of my seat with Machida-Rua and felt that I was watching a true MMA chess match with Machida-Rua.
by chrisbboy82 on Oct 25, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it got FOTN there would be more people whining that Machida got a bonus than there are people whining that it didn’t get FOTN.
I’m sure Dana and the bros were able to spare some money for Shogun without that bonus.
by Phildo on Oct 25, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I highly doubt Shogun’s wallet bank account didin’t see a major deposit today.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 25, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this fight proves we have to give props to what Dana said about this being a fight b/t two of the best strikers n the game. I remember a lot of people on here scoffing at that. Also I would like to say that I agree that it was not a robbery while I do say it was a bad decision but man itwas fun seeing Shogun fight like that it brought back so many memories that was FOTN for sure that was the real robbery!
by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 25, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really wasn’t that close of a fight. I think Shogun beat Machida’s ass all over the cage and I’m a huge Machida fan.
He took all of the initiative on the the exchanges and dominated them. He bruised and battered Machida for 5 rounds. It’s hard to justify Machida even winning 2 rounds much less 3.
It’s hard to call these decisions a robbery because I don’t think the judges had any mission here but Shogun clearly won that fight.
by oasis77 on Oct 25, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It really wasn’t that close of a fight. I think Shogun beat Machida’s ass all over the cage and I’m a huge Machida fan.
100% agree.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
^ – yup…
and who cares what term someone uses to describe a wrong decision, robbed, screwed, hosed, etc…it’s just a term to describe a bad decision, which this was, a bad decision. I guess if you want to get into “levels” of how bad of a decision it was, but thats pointless…
Shogun was robbed, he was screwed and he was fucked over…can we get a new post for each one of those terms so we know what the (alleged) correct one to use would be??
wonder how I’m supposed to describe my old HS basketball days when I made a buzzer beater to win the game that should have sent us to the playoffs, but the refs said I didn’t get it off in time, except the clock expired and buzzer went off as the ball was going into the basket, so it was clearly out of my hand (3 pointer) before time expired (game film later showed it should have counted)….the newspapers said we were robbed, I agreed, but apparently since we only lost by 2 and it was a close game we weren’t robbed, it was JUST controversial right? Not like we were screwed and robbed of our chance at the playoffs (sarcasm)…
Shogun was robbed, should have the UFC Lt HW title, he doesn’t, it was STOLEN from him….
by Reaser16 on Oct 25, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
eh?
that was a really stupid silly analogy.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
stupid is posting over 50 times in different comment sections that the fight wasn’t a robbery when more than a majority of people think one person clearly won…
and it wasn’t really an analogy, it was a story which points out your own definitions…
close game/fight where one side still clearly won = controversial and not a robbery in your eyes…
in the eyes of logically thinking people, saying it was a robbery is saying that because one guy clearly won and he didn’t get his win = he was robbed (its an expression/saying)…
by Reaser16 on Oct 25, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again, judging is subjective, missing a call in basketball is like mazagatti missing an eye poke… because there is a strict rule that they should follow.
a better basketball analogy would be a coach shouting at the guy for taking a bad shot. some people may think it’s a bad shot, but some may also argue that it isn’t, just like judging. Rule violations, like missing a call in basketball isn’t the same from MMA judging. at all..
PS
chill out.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the need to chill out is what is so nuts about this, people are losing their minds and acting like it’s the end of the world. It’s just a fight, the world isn’t going to end just because we didn’t agree with the judges. Hell due to this we get the pleasure of seeing these two guys fight again.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the division actually becomes wayyyyy more interesting now that Lyoto’s invincible aura has faded…
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the fight this morning and came looking for a big article on how we had just witnessed the best Shogun ever and instead it was still more of the same with all the hand-wringing and teeth gnashing about the decision. Two of the best in the world had it out last night in a must see fight yet everyone wants to talk about Cecil Peoples?
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, how does a high school basketball game have anything at all even remotely to do with MMA judging? A ball game is judged on what actually happens according to strict rules and a MMA fight is judged based almost completely on the subjective opinion of the judges assigned to the fight. There is no factual right or wrong answer for a MMA judging decision because it is based on opinion to start with. It’s not just a different system it’s a radically different system that isn’t in any way related to each other at all, heck it is so far different it doesn’t even make sense to do the comparison. The MMA judges didn’t miss a call, or make a bad call they just had a different opinion based on what they saw.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
because I compared basketball to mma???
don’t like my arguement so you pick out one part of the entire thing to go after when you completely missed the point…
me sharing what an actual writer (not blogger, he actually gets paid) thinks is a robbery in sports was the main part of that, the backstory was the basketball game…
Robbery in sports is the same, when one team/person clearly won, as is 90% plus of people, experts, paid journalists, all think one team/person won and yet because of reffing, judging, whatever they didn’t get their rightfully deserved win…that equals a robbery…
way to try and just focus on basketball v. mma when that clearly wasn’t what i was doing..
by Reaser16 on Oct 25, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
undefendable
When a ref in basketball makes a bad call that can be factually backed up they call that a robbery, that is completely different than this situation because this wasn’t the judges missing a call it was the judges having a different opinion of what they saw. Your example makes no sense because it has nothing at all in any way even remotely to do with what happened in this fight. A ref missing a last minute call in a basketball game in the manner you described is the equivalent of Anthony Johnson losing the fight to Kevin Burns due to the ref missing the obvious eye poke that ended the fight not judges making a subjective decision on who won. When your story is so far unrelated to what happened in the first place that it is talking about something completely different then whatever point you were trying to make with it just goes out the window too. A sports writer would call a basketball game ended on a bad call a robbery for a completely different reason than what is being discussed here. Of course there are all sorts of sports writers today that are saying that wasn’t a robbery last night too.
As far as everyone thinking one person won but the judges thinking it was another person, well guess what there are only three people in the entire world whose subjective personal opinions on who won actually matter and it’s those three judges. MMA fights are judged closer to gymnastics and ice skating than how the winners of ball sports are, those judges are paid to give their opinions. Now obviously when talking about opinions you are never going to get everyone to agree on everything, just because people disagree with them proves nothing. You can’t say that it was a robbery just because a bunch of people disagreed with the decision unless you can actually show some kind of blatant way that the judges opinions were not only wrong but completely undefendable. It’s been very easy so far for people to defend these judges decisions even if they didn’t agree with them (hell I didn’t agree with the decision).
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t know what that post is titled undefendable, guess that’s what I get for posting and watching Holmes on Homes at the same time.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the things that has always bugged me is the fact that after damn near every event there has to be some kind of horrible outcry from the fans. Seriously it’s never anyone saying “man I don’t agree with that” or “I scored that one differently” it’s “that was the worst robbery in the history of the sport” or “that was so bad I am never watching again” or “oh my god my head is on fire so I must go rant on the internet about the injustice of it all”. The scoring system for the sport is very subjective thus obviously not everyone is going to agree with every decision, lord knows I didn’t agree with this one but I’m not about to give birth to a litter of kittens over it. Boy it would be nice if fans could actually discuss occurances in the sport without having people constantly freaking the hell out after every single event.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True. They just need to have judges who are versed in MMA. Correct me if im wrong but these were boxing judges, how cn e expect them to comprehend the diff. areas of MMA
by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 25, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think these judges have been judging MMA for a while (lord knows Cecil Peoples is infamous in the sport as a ref and a judge). The scoring system is written in a very vague manner and a lot is left up to the judges subjective opinion of what they are seeing.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha..
I just thought I rmember hearing his name specifically on a lot of boxing cards so I was thinking how the hell did he learn about mma all he sudden
by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 25, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In this case it was a stand up fight. You don’t have to be MMA judge to score kickboxing fight.
by dancingChicken on Oct 25, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No but it did involve a ton of kicks which are not involved in boxing and obviously they didnt account for anything.
by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 26, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How was it close?
Before this fight Lyoto had never lost a round in the UFC. Well guess what. He lost 4 rounds last night and only won one, the 3rd. This was a robbery plain and simple. Machida actually looked cluless at times out there and maybe even a little timid. Shogun won that fight, anyone who saw the fight knows it. It was a robbery becuase Shogun won and he doesn’t have the title around his waist, plain and simple.
Lyoto, do you think you won that fight?
The 3 judges all scored it for me.
*SIGH
Okay, lets try this again. DO YOU IN YOUR MIND TRULY BELIEVE THAT YOU WON THAT FIGHT? MAN UP AND ANSWER THE QUESTION!
All Machida fans stop making excuses trying to defend this ridiculous outcome. Face the facts, Machida was outclassed. All of Machidas stats meant nothing last night. He got tagged all over the place and he lost 4 rounds.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 25, 2009 12:35 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
This makes my point here, look if you can’t figure out that your opinion of the score is just your opinion of the score as opposed to being some kind of actual fact then that falls back on you. There are no facts to be had because judging is subjective and the very fact that there is so much discussion about this shows that it was a long way from a cut and dried robbery (heck even the Sherdog guys were saying it wasn’t even close to a robbery on the show last night and they all scored it for Shogun).
As far as who anyone truely believes won or lost the fight, you do realize that wasn’t the topic here it is an article on how this isn’t a robbery and that is a entirely different subject than just agreeing or disagreeing with the fight call. I thought Shogun won the fight myself but I find that today I am more erked by the people losing their minds over the decision than I am over the actual decision. News flash, the scoring system isn’t perfect and close fights can and do go either way all the time, heck that will happen with pretty much any system. Hey we all know what opinions are like don’t we?
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think BJ beat GSP in fight 1.
I truly believe that but he still has a loss. If I were to bitch and complain and moan, it won’t change. I just deal with it as a loss to an MMA fighter who I dont know but like.
by Riney on Oct 25, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Junkie play by play gave Shogun all 5 rounds. I definitely gave him 4 and would not have been surprised to see him get all 5. I wasnt surprised w/ the fightmetric because most of the shots the Machida fans are talking about were blocked. He did land a few good straight rights and lefts but Shogun did a great job keeping his hands up when he kicked. BTW where can I find a link I been trying to watch it again and cant find anything!
by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 25, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d put the Monson/Nelson fight into the robbery category before this fight. People are focusing on Shogun’s leg kicks and the leg kicks alone, while ignoring Lyoto’s leg kicks, knees and counter punches. It’s easy to see why though, with the severity of the leg kicks that did land seemed to overshadow other aspects of the fight. That being said I think that the fight should be watched a few times over again before hard lines are drawn about what side of the fence everyone is on.
I think Lyoto had his eyes opened abit with this fight. This is the first time (that I know of) that we have seen HIM taken out of his element rather than him doing so to his opponent. How did he fare? Well he definately looked off of his game, and did so from the moment the bell rang. Had this been in a ring, Shogun would have for sure emerged the winner. Even in the cage he was doing a good job of cutting Lyoto off. Quite a few times Lyoto slammed into the cage with his back. I’ve never seen a fighter (Shogun) time his attacks using his opponents prepensity to leap back so well. Back up, back up, back up…shogun attack…Lyoto leap back only to find the cage hindering his movement. I’m sure Machida will return home watch fight video and try his best to incorporate defenses into his strategy that will enable him to better defend that style of fighting.
At least we know that Lyoto can take damage now. He got tagged cleanly in the head a few times and he wasn’t really bothered. Sure his legs started to give way from the kicks that did land solid, but overall I think he weathered the storm very well considering he was way out of his comfort zone just about the whole fight.
Having Silva on his side training with him is going to be a huge factor in coming back with (what I hope to be) a strong showing in the rematch. No matter the outcome of the rematch though, I’d love to see Silva and Shogun fight!
People are being quite vocal about their opinions so far, even resorting to name calling and insinuating that the people on the other side of the fence are stupid. For the casual fan watching at home, I think the incredibly biased commentary swayed people to Shogun’s side, without understanding some of what was actually happening in the fight. My girlfriend who is naive about MMA was watching with me, and she was getting irritated that Rogan was not mentioning anything that Lyoto was doing. Everything was a huge leg kick from Shogun that landed, even if it was blocked, checked or missed. Quite a few times I saw Lyoto emerging from an engagement on the winning end of it, only to hear Goldie/Rogan claim a huge leg kick from Shogun and neglect just about everything else. Did he land big ones??? For sure, the ones that landed cleanly were huge. Was the fight as lopsided as some on here are claiming? IMHO I don’t think so. Yes I’m a Lyoto nuthugger, but I believe I can be objective when need be. Was this a robbery, travisty, disgrace? No it was not, at the most you could claim it was a controverisal decision. I like both fighters (even though Lyoto more) and am looking forward to the rematch. Shogun is young, just imagine what a few more years will do for him!
Main things I learned from the fight:
- Lyoto can take some punishment, both to the body and the head
- Shogun is BACK!!!! (both form and cardio)
- No matter what, Shogun needs respect for figuring out Lyoto’s weaknesses
- Rogan/Goldie were on Rua’s nuts almost as much as Mir on Torres’
by soadtrails on Oct 25, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I disagree on one thing – Machida seemed bothered by Shogun’s strikes when they landed clean. He appeared to be surprised when Rua landed, especially when it was to his face/head. The guy is not used to being hit or losing rounds, and he got hit a lot and lost two rounds (imo three, maybe four) last night.
Welcome to the Machida Error.
by slapjaw ackrite on Oct 25, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess i should clarify…….what I meant by that was he didn’t go into desperation mode or anything upon getting hit. Yes I guess he did look surprised or bothered by it, but he kept his composure fairly well. Some guys when they get hit REALLY don’t like it…..like Vinny M.
by soadtrails on Oct 25, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree that the commentary was extremely one-sided, and that probably did sway some people’s opinions, subconsciously or not.
"That feeling after you win and they raise your hand... it's like you have this energy that releases from your body, and it's like you mingle with the cosmos, and you feel omnipotent"
by woomikee on Oct 25, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is it that people say the commentary was one sided when one side was dominating the fight? should they commentate only 50/50 regardless of who is winning?
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 25, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s why I suggest that people watch the fight again, and not focus on the leg kicks alone. The brutality of the ones that landed could easily overshadow some of the other things that happened. Quite a few times there was nothing mentioned on Lyoto’s side when he clearly emerged from an engagement on the plus side. Not everyone who watches these fights are experts or well versed in the world…and could easily be swayed by the commentary.
by soadtrails on Oct 25, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if SO many people are screaming robbery, and about 15% are saying “its not a robbery” how can you continue to defend your position? find the polls, the fight metric, the forums, the reports, its a HUGE outcry that it is a robbery.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Oct 25, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Haven't you heard?
The polls, fight metric, reports – everyone was swayed by the commentators.
Also, awesome sig.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That’s why I implied the average Joe watching, not EVERYONE in the world.
by soadtrails on Oct 25, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good ol’ Myth, ignoring an salient points and shooting straight for the sensationalist statement.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 25, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
* sigh *
Trolling is fine, pointing out that its trolling gets deleted. Awesome.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually!!
I just realize — that means I can finally do it back, since its apparently not trolling today!
Good ol’ iiowyn, ignoring an reality and shooting straight to the whining.
or hows this one.
Good ol’ iiowyn, ignoring an reality and shooting straight to the trolling.
This ones pretty good.
Good ol’ iiowyn, ignoring an reality and running straight to the short bus.
meh, whichever. I expect this will get deleted too since apparently only some people get to post insulting, troll-tastic stuff.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you have to make a post about it not being a robbery, usually, it’s a robbery.
SHOGUN SLAYED THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN GOT ROBBED FROM HIS LHW TITLE!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Oct 25, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
In a recent poll 1 in 5 people claimed they had been visited by a dead relative, just because a lot of people say something doesn’t make it a fact. Hell as far as MMA judging goes it’s all subjective opinion to start with. Lots of people are saying that they thought Shogun won but most of them aren’t calling it a robbery they are just not agreeing with the judges. A robbery in sports implies a huge miscarriage of justice (say like if Heath Herring had been awarded the fight over Brock Lesnar)not a close fight where people just don’t agree with the judges. Some people are losing their minds over this one and it’s getting to be a bit silly.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a recent poll 1 in 5 people claimed they had been visited by a dead relative,
Some people are losing their minds over this one and it’s getting to be a bit silly.
Irony is ironic.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if dead relatives are returning from the grave to complain about the Shogun vs Machida decision.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, it is close to Halloween
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent breakdown - Most reasonable thing anyone's said about the fight.
I had it 3-2 Shogun, but it’s entirely possible for Machida to win. Judging is a bureaucratic process. If Shogun clearly, but not dominantly, won 2 rounds, and Machida barely won 3, then under the 10-pt-must rules, Machida wins (This is how Bisping beat Hammil). Under Japanese rules, Shogun wins. The game’s a bitch – finish your fights, folks.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 25, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would call it a draw, but obviously there’s no such thing as draw…
by dancingChicken on Oct 25, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d call it a draw too, except for the whole Shogun actually winning thing.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think
people who wanted Machida to win and totally counted shogun out are just taking whatever they can get here lol. it was a draw, shogun should have finished so it’s his fault etc. if it were anyone other than machida I doubt the decision would get so much defense, which is funny considering they’re the main ones calling bias.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Oct 25, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
ROBBERY
i could see giving round 2 to machida, and thats it. I think you could make a case for all 5 going to shogun. Really, what did Machida do? he tried a couple knees that werent that effective. Rua controlled the flurries, initiated more, and did more damage. I think this is IMPOSSIBLE for machida to have won. (legitimately)
I like what fenixknight said too. “If you have to make a post about it not being a robbery, usually, it’s a robbery.”
by bluejitz on Oct 25, 2009 9:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats the big question I have: “What did Machida do?” Rounds 4 and 5 arent in dispute. I really dont know how you could give round 1 to Machida either. Shogun landed more strikes and even if you assume that Machidas shots were heavier, it was Shogun who controlled the octagon. I cant see an argument for Machida winning round 1…..even after rewatching it.
I was shocked when they said it was 48-47 as I thought Machida somehow was awarded winner of 2 rounds, but my jaw dropped….as did the jaw of everyone watching when they announced Machida as the winner.
by GeeDub on Oct 25, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most of the fight Shogun looked like Machida (stalking, quick in and out shots) and Machida looked lost and confused.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there are hordes of fans making angry post about a fighter getting robbed then it doesn’t mean a robbery happened it just means that it is the day after any major MMA event in the US. It’s just not an after event discussion without people losing their minds about something that happened anymore.
by who me on Oct 25, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Someone gets it. Although, ‘points’ to mythbuster (I don’t think I can rec comments) for noting that Shogun basically out-Machida’d Machida and clearly the former isn’t used to that. (Which may not invalidate the approach…)
FWIW, although they’re way less controversial I’m sure, when I first saw Guida vs. Sanchez I gave it to Sanchez… Guida didn’t do enough to come back from his first-round drubbing at Sanchez’s hands. While I might have weighed the kimura attempt(s) more than appropriate, I just didn’t see Guida make a comeback so big as to invalidate Sanchez’s good start and holding his own in R2. Similar thoughts regarding Tibau-Neer.
by Chortles on Oct 25, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how to rec?
click actions then rec
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 25, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's all semantics...
A bad decision is a bad decision is a bad decision. I’m so sick of people trying to use a defense of “well it was a close fight…” to justify a bad decision. Just because it was “close” we can excuse judges’ clearly shitty work?!? Yes, it was a “close fight” but the wrong fighter’s hand was raised and I think it’s pretty clear from the reaction that the judges were out to lunch.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 26, 2009 12:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that's where you're wrong my friend..
even those experts who scored if for shogun, couldn’t decide which rounds were Lyoto’s, so how is it shitty work?
Rounds 1-3 could be given to either fighter and it is really shown by all those scoring.
the only “shitty” thing i saw is Judge Doc Hamilton, for some weird ass reason is the only guy who gave round 4 to machida.
also, “the reaction” has doesn’t have anything to do with the whole argument.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 26, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the irony
Cecil freakin’ Peoples scored it about the only way plausible for a Machida win (1-2-3 Machida and 4-5 Rua), while it’s another judge who’s the outlier (2-3-4 Machida, 1-5 Rua).
by Chortles on Oct 26, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two of three managed to get round 1 for Machida, which while not a consensus among your “experts”, looks like it was judged much more favourable for Shogun.
One judge gave a clear round for Rua to Machida (Rd 4).
If you remove the esteemed judges scores from the scores in Rd 3, it’s basically dead even.
I’m not calling “robbery” – but it was still a bad decision and just because it was “close”, I don’t excuse them for getting it wrong.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 26, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops.
Replied to wrong post…but it was a close post, so…. :)
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Oct 26, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree with you that it wasn’t robbery, I think your reasoning is specious. You argue that because such a wide range of judges couldn’t come to consensus for round 1 thus it must be a contentious round, ignoring the fact that everyone is questioning the judgement of three of the judges. If the three controversial ringside judges are thrown out then no longer is it a 7-5 round, but a 7-2 round. That seems pretty close to a consensus to me.
by nottheface on Oct 26, 2009 3:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Written on my iPhone, so it came out much “dickier” than I meant.
by nottheface on Oct 26, 2009 3:53 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
You need to go back and check your numbers. One of the judges scored the first round for Rua so if you took those three off then you would have a 6-3 breakdown (5-3 with one draw if you count Gross’s change). Of course even people who did score it differently are saying they can see where the judges came from here and that this wasn’t a robbery. You can disagree with the judges and it not be a horrible failure of the system, hell its quite common the judges score the rounds differently from each other.
Thats the the thing with judging it’s based on opinion thus there will always be people with different opinions(even the three judges in this fight didn’t agree on every round). Just because people disagree is pretty irrelevant because there is no real quantitative facts that go into judging. It’s mostly based on personal opinion and that is very subjective. To have a robbery you really need to show where the judges decisions can’t be defended at all and that just isn’t the case here.
by who me on Oct 26, 2009 9:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
My mistake on the first round. In my defense I have been drinking a lot lately.
And I agree, I don’t think it was a robbery, I just think it was a bad call by the judges. My point to Anton was that I thought it specious to show how evenly split viewers were on the first round by including the scores of the maligned judges.
Of course, this was before I realized i misread the judges scored, so I politely withdraw my complaint.
by nottheface on Oct 26, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between winning the fight and winning the contest
By the end of the fight, it was clear that Machida had taken more damage over 5 rounds, but that has nothing at all to do with how the contest is scored.
At the end of the fight, it was clear that Shogun had all the momentum, but that has nothing at all to do with how the contest is scored.
Watching the fight, I scored it a draw. I scored round one even. I scored rounds 2 and 3 for Machida. I scored rounds 4 and 5 for Shogun (and 4 was easily the least competitive round of the fight – Doc Hamilton is insane).
That Shogun won his ronds more decisively than Machida did doesn’t matter. It can’t matter, under the scoring system, unless he manages a 10-8 round somewhere, and there definitely wasn’t a 10-8 round in the fight. Neither fighter threatened a finish at any point.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Oct 26, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well the system isn’t perfect and it obviously has it’s flaws, (evidenced by this fight). Pride rules would’ve scored this better, but that too has it’s own share of major flaws.
by Anton Tabuena on Oct 26, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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