UFC 104 Wrap-Up: A Thought on the Need to "Truly Beat the Champion"

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 7:00 AM EDT in News Comment 43 comments

Before I start let me go on record as saying that after watching the fight I did score it three rounds to two for Lyoto Machida. But this isn't about my scorecard.

Across the Internet I'm seeing a lot of people throw out the idea that you need to "truly beat the champ" to take away the belt. This is honestly one of the dumbest ideas in combat sports. It has a long history of usage in boxing as well as MMA and it is absolutely moronic.

Sports are set up with defined rules that need to be applied across all contests exactly the same. The idea that a champion should be given the benefit of the doubt in a title defense is the exact opposite of the true spirit of what a sport is. If the rules are set up so that the winner of a round is awarded 10 points and the loser 9 or less no matter how narrow the margin, then that rule should apply the same to the evening's curtain jerker as it does to a main event title fight. As a matter of fact, one would assume the rules would be applied with even greater weight in a title fight for the very fact of not cheapening a title. If the challenger wins a round by the narrowest of margins...he still won the round. After all, shouldn't the very fact that a man has won a championship mean that he does not need to be afforded a head start?

In the interest of avoiding turning this into a full blown rant I'll leave it at this: if a fighter wins a round he wins a round, if he wins a fight he wins a fight. Harm can be done to our sport when we start letting ideas like a titled playing field favoring one fighter gain any legitimacy.

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disagree with your scorecard but agree with your sentiment.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 25, 2009 7:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Did you rewatch the fight a second time?

You change your mind from this post?

“Round 5 Shogun with a leg kick. Machida charges but gets nothing. Shogun pressing with a body kick. Machida punches to counter. Shogun HURTS the champ with a leg kick. Shogun catches a kick. They trade leg kicks. Shogun charges behind punches. Machida staggers due to battered legs. Knee to the liver from Machida doesn’t seem to phase Shogun. They clinch. Knees to the legs from Shogun. Dean breaks them up. Shogun counters a knee to the body with several punches. Shogun advancing behind punches. Machida’s lip is bloody and swollen as the Machida era bleeds away. Shogun ends the fight with a left. Bloody Elbow scores it 10-9 Shogun. Final score 50-46 Shogun.

THE CSAC JUDGES UNANIMOUSLY SCORE THE FIGHT FOR LYOTO MACHIDA.

I CALL SHENANIGANS."

by Rob Maysey on Oct 25, 2009 7:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Note: Brent has H1N1 flu so Kid Nate is doing the live blogging.

Twitter: @FlyByKnite

by FlyByKnight on Oct 25, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gotcha--

Brent’s name appeared on the earlier post—I wasn’t aware that wasn’t him.

by Rob Maysey on Oct 25, 2009 7:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

for my part

when I said “to be the champ you’ve got to finish the champion” meant that the reality of Shogun’s situation was this — in order to claim the belt he needed a definitive finish to take the judges out of the equation.
It wasn’t a statement about the way things ought to be, it was a statement about the way thing are.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 25, 2009 7:54 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I understood YOUR use of it…it was a lot of the other people who are using it as an excuse for how they scored the fight. i.e. “I gave him that round because he is the champ and you have to CLEARLY beat the champion to win a round” etc

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh man

if you do it round by round, that’s murder

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 25, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the record

In case my comment from the live blog thread gets used…

If it’s close, fight goes to the champ. Been that way for years in boxing. Champs need to be clearly beaten to lose. Not saying it’s right, just saying that’s the precedent.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS. I’m just saying it happens, a lot, in boxing. Judges may be prone to defer to the reigning champ in a title fight. I am NOT saying it’s right. I am saying there is plenty of historical precedent.

"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK

by duck on Oct 25, 2009 7:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

/\

this
is what I meant in my earlier post.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 25, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So, there's the two of us, anyway.

I don’t feel so lonely now.

"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK

by duck on Oct 25, 2009 7:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I understand you saying it that way...

because i have no doubt that some judges score with this in mind. I just hate it SO much when someone actively scores the fight as such

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree - it's a dumb way to score

If a challenger barely wins a round, he still should win the round.

"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK

by duck on Oct 25, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

“To BE the man, you have to BEAT the man.”

Ric Flair was dead on!!!
Shogun fought a great fight, but he didn’t fir TO WIN. He fought not to get embarassed, and there’s no way in hell you can take the champ’s title fighting that way.

by coachbarbour on Oct 25, 2009 8:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fake Quote from Mauricio Rua

“Yes, this is a dream opportunity for me. I gladly accept the challenge of stepping in the octagon with the best 205 pound fighter in the world and not embarrass myself. It’s not about the title, it’s about the chance to say to the word, ‘World. Winning doesn’t matter. Not embarrassing myself is all that matters.’ The title means nothing, that’s not why I fight. I fight to not embarrass myself.”

by argyle on Oct 25, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why can’t you ? It does not matter how you fight the bottom line and the only thing that matters is what fighter wins more rounds then the other no matter how sloppy the fight is or how bad the challenger looked doing it.

by Shocbomb on Oct 25, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

how did he not fight to win?? thats the dumbest comment on this thread. so he didnt wade in and get his head knocked off a la thiago silva, seems rather clever to me…

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Oct 25, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very good point Brent. That type of scoring a fight for the champ in a close round or close fight is pretty much cheating. THe bottom line is you are chganging the rules of the fight for that one fighter.

by Shocbomb on Oct 25, 2009 8:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

if you’re a fighter, do your best to take the judges out of the equation. we’ve seen some really odd or close judging lately — from the Va. AC judges at Easton-Beebe all the way to last night. now, while the Va. judges were either corrupt or incompetent (or some combination of the two), at least the judges from last night have defensible viewpoints.

it was a close fight, and i thought Shogun won. but i can’t complain about this judging. i thought Shogun cruised a lot of the fight and didn’t try to finish it when he could have, and that cost him on the scorecards.

solution: don’t let it get to the judges. that way they can’t screw a decision up.

by bobthewriter on Oct 25, 2009 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I really hate this theory.

So many people act like it’s a hard and fast rule. All it is is an excuse created by boxing people to explain away bad decisions.

It’s stupid when boxing people say it, it’s stupid when mma people say it, I wish it would go away.

by Phildo on Oct 25, 2009 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The rules should be applied...

uniformly across all matches. Period. There’s a great argument to be had that the current iteration of the 10-point must system isn’t the fairest infrastructure for judging an MMA match. However, that’s the system, and it shouldn’t be fudged or altered on a case by case basis. If the powers that be feel it should be changed, change it. Any adjustment has to be official and public.

In my mind, if you didn’t score Machida/Shogun by utilizing the 5-minute rounds but scored the entire fight as a 25-minute block, Shogun won by what could be described as a more definitive margin. But again, in scoring the bout by the current rules, I can’t see that the judges can be taken to task on this one. And yes, having to stop the champion to win the belt is a blatantly stupid position – one that implies an ad hoc application of the scoring rules.

by Cannon Jacques on Oct 25, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Scoring rounds is subjective. If its close how can you say one fighter took it over the other? Especially in a sport that prizes head hunting over shots to the body and legs. MMA still dosent know what scores points, for how much and what dosent yet… There is no exact method and if its close there is pressure to give someone the round. God forbid we have a draw in a title fight. Im not saying I agree with the decision, but thats the thought process going through the judges heads.

by ryanwk628 on Oct 25, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I scored it for Machida, as I said. But I did so because I felt he won 3 rounds. What bothers me are the people that are defending scoring it for Machida by saying that every close round goes to the champ..etc

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well there is the subjectivity. Perhaps the judges gave more weight to the straight punches then the leg kicks and body work joe rogan was talking about. If we listened to the commentators for decisions, every WEC fight Mir calls would go to the guy with better BJJ.

I wish these commissions would come out with a judging training, make it public, and show walk throughs of close rounds and say who they scored it for, what counts more, and why.

by ryanwk628 on Oct 25, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we went by Frank Mir then every WEC fight would be won by Miguel Torres :D

by who me on Oct 25, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wish these commissions would come out with a judging training, make it public, and show walk throughs of close rounds and say who they scored it for, what counts more, and why.

The problem with that is that there is no set structure about how a fight should be scored written in the regulations. It’s all very vague and relies almost completely on subjective judge opinion.

by who me on Oct 25, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So how do we eliminate the inherent subjectivity in all combat sports? Fit the fighters with electro-magnetic vital sensors and monitor who gets the most damage inflicted?

for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.

by Bandaka on Oct 25, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I like subjectivity...

I enjoy the human element of judging. It’s a part of what makes this game (sport…whatever) fun to watch for me.

BUT the idea that a champion needs a head start is beyond me.

i.e. Usain Bolt doesn’t need to be beat by half a second since he’s the best runner in the world. The Dodgers didn’t have to beat the Phillies by a 3 game margin since they’re defending champs…etc

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

right

but in baseball, if howard hits a single and the ball and runner get to the base at the same time… or too close to call for the human eye… they give the tie to the runner. Do they have to? No they could put sensors in the bag and ball, use super slo mo instant replay or something else. In combat sports, if its too close to call, they give it to the champ. But honestly, what would they do if they scored a title fight a draw?

by ryanwk628 on Oct 25, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

rematch I would assume

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And if a WR and the DB both catch the ball…the tie goes go the wide receiver.

by MickDawg on Oct 26, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dana didn’t think Machida won 3 rounds. That’s why Rua’s immediately been given a rematch. You think that’d happen if Dana thought LM won? It has to be a real bullshit decision in order for White to be giving people rematches, to even think about giving people rematches. He’s not going to say, “Really close fight! You deserve a rematch!”
No, no, no. It’s, “You won that fight, boy! Now get in there & get that goddamn belt.”

As long as he’s at it, he might as well give Hammil a rematch against Bisping too. Matt, with a bum knee, tossed Mike around like a ragdoll. It was like Mike was a 185er in that fight, ridiculous. With two good knees, it will be even more uncompetetive than the last fight.

by CaptLuNaTic on Oct 25, 2009 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

...

thanks for not talking about the content of the article and rambling about something totally different.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 25, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

What?? Dana runs his mouth all the time about decisions and he calls for immediate rematches when he thinks it is what the fans want. If the winner of Rampage vs Rashad was going to be waiting in the wings for a title shot then that is the fight we would most likely be getting next regardless of how this one ended. Aside from completely missing what the article was about your just making a irrelevant point that proves nothing at all either way.

by who me on Oct 25, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shogun beat him like a dirty horse

I dislike Matt Hughes.

by MonkeyCHops on Oct 25, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I honstly don’t remember a time where I saw the scores and thought that the judges gave a close round to the champ just because he was the champ and I have wondered where people come up with this from (same as acting like a fight should of been a split decision). There is no special scoring method for championship fights and anytime a fighter leaves a fight in the judges hands then they risk the same judge issues championship fight or not.

by who me on Oct 25, 2009 12:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Truly beat the champion.

This is one of those sentiments where if you repeat a lie often and loud enough, it becomes gospel. It is the most ridiculous phrase ever repeated in any sport, IMO. Goldberg even used it in the forth round of the fight.

I thought about this sort of belief and whether it happens in other sports. One example was Wayne Gretzky in Hockey. For the longest time, there was an aura about him where players and refs believed he was untouchable. I’m sure there are other examples where champs or superstars get some leniency one way or the other, but in the example of Hockey, they don’t discount legitimate goals. When you have a point scoring system like MMA does, and you score it round by round, I don’t see how you can just disregard when the champ gets hit, you know what I mean?

That being said, I finally got to see the fight this morning (twice) and I still scored it rounds 1-3 for Machida. Under Pride rules Shogun clearly won the fight. But this isn’t Pride. As Lauren J. Darkbloom from the other thread said, It’s not the judge’s fault if the scoring system is limited the way it is. Sometimes the system doesn’t work.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Oct 25, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it happens all the time. God forbid you hit Brady or youll get roughing the passer. He gets all the pass interference calls he wants. MLB all stars get bigger smaller strike zones and dominant pitchers get bigger ones. The NBA has told its refs not to foul out super stars because thats who the fans come to see. Popular boxing fighters, especially at home, often win close rounds.

Every league takes measures to protect its champions.

by ryanwk628 on Oct 25, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup

The NBA especially.

Jordan got nearly every close call….
Kobe even gets phantom calls here and there…
Lebron too…

by MickDawg on Oct 26, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why wasn't this logic applied to Rampage-Griffin?

by IRodC on Oct 25, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

This is not a problem in MMA… judges dont give a shit about the champion. If that were the case Rampage would have beat Forrest.

Judges almost always give the close rounds to the fan favorite. Happens almost every time. Whether they do it on purpose or subconsciously I dont know.

Every close decision in the UFC has almost always gone to the fan favorite… In fact I cant think of a time that it hasn’t.

This, in here is where the problems lay.

by mmalogic on Oct 25, 2009 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It is human nature, and anything done to correct it internally could swing it in the opposite direction.

Pretty big conundrum.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Oct 25, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This argument that the champion has some sort of mythical hold on the belt that you have to pry from his dead hands is simply bullshit. It has been used to justify some of the worst decisions in the history of sports and has been proven false time in and time out and it’s no different in this situation.

by Raker on Oct 26, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs