UFC 104 Results: Josh Neer Fails to Stop Takedown Onslaught From Gleison Tibau

by Luke Thomas on Oct 24, 2009 11:32 PM EDT in News Comment 16 comments

The difference was takedowns.

Gleison Tibau was able to defeat Josh Neer with takedowns in all three rounds. While the takedowns began as slams in the first and were largely stuffed in the third, they came with enough frequency and defensive stand-up to get the job done for the ATT product.

Neer used a nice array of hip escapes and a butterfly guard the Brazilian struggled to pass. The first round saw the Brazilian due to the overwhelming force of takedowns. The second was much of the same including a mount to back transition for Tibau. While Neer eventually used two on one wrist control to escape, the control was enough to do the round. Neer always looked to pour the offense standing, but the Brazilian either moved back or forward, never letting Neer set a rhythm.

Gleison Tibau wins by unanimous decision.

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Not saying Neer won

However, I will never understand why a takedown is automatic points while a guy escaping or standing up immediately after the takedown is worth nothing. People say “the takedown is scored because he put the guy on his back when he didn’t wanna be on his back”—agreed. But the same criteria applies to the escape, in that “he gets up off his back quickly and masterfully when the other guy didn’t want him to”.

Judging in MMA is difficult and sometimes near impossible, but with basic criteria like takedowns and escapes not scored consistently, I don’t see how it will ever get better.

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 9:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not saying Neer won

Good.

Also, a take down is an offensive maneuver, while an escape is defensive.

"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick

by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

Is a counter-punch a defensive move? A submission attempt from the guard?

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, since a counter punch is offensive, as is a submission attempt. Offense is trying to hurt the other guy, defense is trying to avoid being hurt.

Lets give an absurd example: Kalib Starnes vs. Nate Quarry. Quarry was swinging (or trying to) while Kalib was escaping those swings. Should Kalib have won the decision because he managed to not get KO? Or should Nate for trying to KO?

I am no expert, obviously, but I think the points generally head in the direction of the person trying to inflict damage rather than the person trying to avoid having damage inflicted upon themselves.

Disclaimer: I am not comparing Josh Neers performance to Kalib Starnes. I’m only using him as an example of the difference between scoring a takedown vs scoring an escape.

"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick

by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know if you could be any more smug, and yet still not bring anything to the table.

Bravo.

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really? Try reading any of what I wrote.

Your theory that escaping injury should be awarded more than trying to injure is laughable. When I point out how obviously laughable it is, you say I bring nothing to the table. Just stomp your feet and say “but I want it!!”.

My fault for trying to reason with you.

"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick

by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You weren’t reasoning with me, perhaps because you misinterpreted what I wrote (as usual).

I’d ask you to point out ONE PLACE where I suggested escaping should be worth more than trying to injure, but that doesn’t serve your purpose, which is to consistently argue and bring as much smugness as possible. If you were as clever as you thought you were, you’d have some value. As it stands, you don’t. You actually make me miss some of the fools who’ve been banned. At least they amused at times.

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Way to get personal

but I accept your challenge.

I’d ask you to point out ONE PLACE where I suggested escaping should be worth more than trying to injure

However, I will never understand why a takedown is automatic points while a guy escaping or standing up immediately after the takedown is worth nothing. People say "the takedown is scored because he put the guy on his back when he didn’t wanna be on his back"—agreed. But the same criteria applies to the escape, in that "he gets up off his back quickly and masterfully when the other guy didn’t want him to".

"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick

by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still waiting

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s ok man. Despite this being a non-issue, and it being obviously ridiculous to claim that escaping damage is as important as causing damage, I can see that you are taking it way too seriously. The fact that you decided to attack me personally while ignoring anything that I had written shows both your lack of any serious argument and your desire to feel victimized.

Not my problem. I would only recommend you stand by your own words.

"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick

by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What you're doing is called "projecting".

If you read my words, which you didn’t (or were unable to), you’d have seen that I never suggested that escapes were more valuable than takedowns. Do you understand it if I say it like that? I suggested that they should have some value. I don’t know if it’s measurable, as takedowns appear to be in the eyes of judges.

Regardless, there are hundreds of commenters here. I bet you can navigate this place without talking to me. I’d be fine with that.

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah well

I didn’t want to fight with you. Sad that you needed to take it in that direction. Oh well, internet warrior, c’est la vie.

"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick

by mythbuster on Oct 25, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure what is not to understand

Takedowns dictate position. Neer offered little to no offense in this fight, and this is mostly because he had no say in where the fight took place. Further, Tibau didn’t just wet blanket him to victory. He let the fight stand, and he took him down at will, repeatedly. This is by definition dominance.

And as for scoring escapes, let’s take for comparison scoring for positional grappling disciplines. Escapes in wrestling count for no more than half as many points as takedowns. Takedowns count for 1, 2, 3 or 5 points depending on the nature of the takedown and/or the grappling discipline. Escapes count for 0 or 1 depending on the discipline.

The underlying reasoning is that though escapes are valuable, they put you on (at best) even ground from a deficit.

by loboplata on Oct 26, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gleison Tibau

is freakin’ huge for his weight class! I have to give Neer alot of credit for weathering the takedown storm, and more or less nullifiying the ground game of Tibau. I thought he did excellent!

by soadtrails on Oct 25, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I definitely felt for Neer. He was doing his best to pour on offensive, make it a good fight etc, but Tibau just kept taking it down while doing pretty much nothing else. Tibau could be a nasty fighter if he honed his other skills a little bit.

by Dooda on Oct 25, 2009 6:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

At the same time, Neer might want to develop some takedown defense.

Perhaps my best years are gone. When there was a chance of happiness. But I wouldn't want them back. Not with the fire in me now. No, I wouldn't want them back.

by jebushchrist on Oct 25, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs