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UFC 104 Preview: Bloody Elbow Judo Chop: Can Mauricio Shogun Rua Compete With Lyoto Machida on the Feet?

I've written a fair bit about Lyoto Machida's technique, and I've also grappled a fair bit with the question of whether or not Shogun Rua can beat the champ. So I thought I'd do a bit more of a technical breakdown about Shogun's chances. First off, let's talk about the standing range of the game because that's where most of the fight is likely to happen.

Reminder, I am anything but an expert on this kind of stuff. I've never trained seriously or competed. I'm simply a fan trying to understand what I'm seeing. Corrections and clarifications from readers who are better informed than I are not only welcome, they're encouraged!

For roughly two years from the time Mauricio "Shogun" Rua won the Pride Middleweight Grand Prix in 2005, many considered him to be the best 205lb fighter in the sport. A BJJ blackbelt, he could fight at a distance, he could wrestle, he was devastating in the clinch and for God's sake never let him get on top of you.

Shogun began training Muay Thai in his teens, trained at the legendary Chute Boxe camp and somewhere along the way he picked up a little bit of capoeira to sprinkle on top as well. He's racked up 15 of his 18 wins by KO or TKO.

He's incredibly athletic and proficient at most aspects of MMA and this gave him two big advantages over most of his opponents. If he got into trouble in one phase of a fight he could force the fight to another phase of the game and get out of trouble.

But he has rarely faced opponents who had truly technical approaches to the stand up game. Especially not someone as precise and opportunistic as Machida.

In the full entry we'll get down to specific examples from Shogun's PRIDE career and look at the strengths and weaknesses of his standing game.

Ufc_104_medium

Star-divide

This comment by Devante from the Sherdog forums is an excellent summary of Rua's dilemma in this fight (I've edited it slightly for clarity and filled out the abbreviations):

Shogun-rampage-1_mediumThe thing about (Rua) is alot of his success standing is based on athleticism, not so much technical excellence. His Muay Thai is ok, his boxing is terrible and his overall kickboxing is so so; the best thing about him is the unpredictable aspect of his standup AND his explosiveness/dynamic quality.

He (has a proven chin where Lyoto's is unknown) and more power.The only reason we know he has a good chin is that he is so haphazard offensively and defensively with his striking. Lyoto has been hit clean only a handful of times so we have no idea what he can or can't take.

Shogun-rampage-2_mediumRua isn't as precise or defensively aware in regards to actual parries, blocks, slips or even control of range. His defense is his offense which handcuffs opponents who don't want to get countered as a result of his  ability to overwhelm and the variety of strikes he uses. Also he fights in spots, he isn't consistent; he explodes at different points in a fight and if you're in range or not well rounded in your striking you usually get caught and dropped or stopped.

The issue being Lyoto is defensively adept and physically gifted enough that that staccato flow to Rua's striking won't be enough to offset him, and since there isn't a huge gap between them in regards to physical ability, Rua won't be able to overrun/overwhelm Lyoto's technical advantages.

And overwhelming opponents is really is all Rua does. Against opponents with better base striking he can use his wide range of strikes and athleticism because most fighter STILL are only adept in one area; and against guys with comparable ability he can rely on actual technique/range of strikes. The problem is now he is facing a comparable athlete and more importantly a superior technician/strategist.

Note how Shogun's swarming of Rampage Jackson in their 2005 bout at PRIDE's Total Elimination 2005. Shogun fires off a winging capoeira kick that may be called the Martelo Rodado (in TKD a very similar move is called a Tornado Kick) that is partially blocked by Jackson but also wacks him with a fair amount of impact. The kick starts with a feint that has Jackson looking to check a leg kick, taking him a bit off balance. The second gif shows how deadly Shogun can be in the clinch. He comes in from an awkward angle, lands a nasty uppercut then establishes the Thai plum with both hands behind Jackson's neck and begins firing knees.

Shogun-arona-4_mediumHere we see a staple of Shogun's highlight reels, a very dramatic spinning capoeira kick (or is it a TKD tornado kick?) against Ricardo Arona in the final round of the PRIDE 2005 middleweight GP. It's a high flying move with a great deal of dramatic visual appeal. It also clearly misses but does get Arona backing up and when he counters with an amazingly awkward right hand you can really see how much Rua benefitted from Arona's lack of standing technique.

Shogun-arona-5_mediumBut from this angle we can see by just how much Shogun's kick missed Arona. It definitely forced him to retreat, and Arona's counter is even more awkward-looking from this angle than from behind. But I don't see Lyoto Machida passing on such a massive opportunity to connect with a counter-strike while Rua winds up a technique like this.

Machida's game is largely built around waiting for moments like this. Here he talks to the Las Vegas Sun about it:

"In my karate, there is a time which is called the Kyo, which means the fighter has no defense. I study to make sure I attack right at the correct Kyo, and that's what I did."

The "Kyo" on a wild spinning kick has to be immense.

Shogunnakamura2_medium
But looking at these gifs that BE reader Grappo linked to, it's easy to see that Shogun's "kyo" can be exploited even by fighters not at Machida's level. On the left we see Shogun getting countered by Kazuhiro Nakamura at PRIDE Shockwave 2006. Here's Grappa's comment:

Arona’s punch was deflected. But, Shogun’s kick to Nakamura was blocked. It looks like Naka’s punch didn’t land cleanly either. Later Naka counters a body kick with a chest punch that nearly sends Shogun to the canvas. In the Overeem rematch, his kicks were effectively countered a couple of times too.

 I guess my main point is that kicks leave Shogun very open to being countered, and if he tries high-kicking Machida, it’s going to be lights out for him. Lyoto will be fast and accurate enough to fully capitalize on these openings. I think Shogun’s balls-out aggression and willingness to mix it up on the feet or the floor were too much for most opponents (and will still probably be too much for most current opponents) but Machida don’t play dat.

Shogunovereem2_medium
On the right we see Alistair Overeem catching a Shogun kick and feeding him a hard left to the face at their fight at PRIDE 33. It's important to note that Shogun went on to win both of these fights.

We'll see on Saturday if Lyoto Machida can capitalize on the opportunities created by Shogun Rua's wild style or if Shogun will be the first fighter to unravel the Machida mystery. If Shogun wins this fight, I don't expect him to do it on the feet.

Gifs by Chris Nelson (except the final two).

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If Shogun wins this fight, I don’t expect him to do it on the feet.

I agree. but i don’t think Shogun will get to the ground, unless Lyoto throws him off or knocks him down/out..

by Anton Tabuena on Oct 21, 2009 11:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Machida has shown himself to be more than willing to follow his opponents to the ground after knockdowns and sweeps, and shogun is amazing at taking the back after his leglock attacks. Shogun has a good chance on ground if Machida continues trying to finish his fights more quickly.

by judonerd on Oct 21, 2009 7:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

If machida is smart, he’ll take this into rounds 4 and 5 after getting points and evading. Shogun talked about being patient, but I’ve never seen him be 5-rounds-of-waiting patient, and I don’t think he’s comfortable when he’s not swarming and rushing guys.

by judonerd on Oct 21, 2009 7:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

patient doesn't really work against Machida

He will out point you, and uses feints to set up his own openings.

by soadtrails on Oct 22, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun will get clowned on the feet, just like everyone else.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The reason being...

He’s off balance during his more agressive attacks. Look at the gifs, there’s one frame of damage for every seven frames of stumbling like a drunk.

by casey manrique on Oct 21, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also can put a gif of him getting taken down by Coleman and breaking his own arm.

by Dav11 on Oct 21, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“He seems to be more durable and have a better chin than Lyoto”

What is the basis for this?

Lyoto has never been rocked.

by Meshuggeth on Oct 21, 2009 11:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think what the writer is trying to say

is that we KNOW Shogun has a strong chin. Lyoto’s is a ? since no one’s really ever connected on him with a really killer shot.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 21, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

" Lyoto’s is a ? since no one’s really ever connected on him with a really killer shot."

And no one is going to on Saturday either.

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 3:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

At this point I would be happy to prove that Machida even has a chin. I’ll get the SETI people on the case to find his chin right now.

Keep firing Assholes!

Never trust a man with no shirt on.

by Ubernoober on Oct 21, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun is far from being the better striker in this match up, but I think he’ll use a bit of his capoeira to try to get Machida to fight his fight. Machida leans back a lot when he strikes, to get away from any incoming counter strike. Capoeira is not great MA to fight against most strikers, but it’s a great MA to counter someone who leans back a lot, using trips and kicks that can connect to someone’s head when they are leaning back. In the clinch, I’ll give this to Shogun as well, he’s hard to throw around from there, Machida’s clinch is great from a sumo perspective, but if he fails to trip Shogun he’ll eat a bunch of knees. On the ground I give it to Shogun as well, I see him having the better wrestling and BJJ to keep Machida on the defense. If they don’t tie up and the fight remains on the feet, Machida will be successful, but if they clinch or the fight goes to the ground, Shogun will come up victorious. I know I’m in the minority, but hopefully most of you guys will give Shogun his props come Saturday night :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm doing another post on the ground aspects of the fight

great minds think alike. : )

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 21, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

:P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Oct 21, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is going to be a long fight, Shogun can take a punch. They’ll end up clinching and/or going to the ground, where he’ll have an advantage for sure!

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Machida grappled with Rafael Lovato Jr. and won. I know it was not MMA, but still, Lovato is BJJ, Judo black belt, multiple BJJ World Champion.

by dancingChicken on Oct 22, 2009 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, Machida likes to parry attacks and counter all in the same motion. He parrys your punch while already in the motion to counter, and that’s his most effective striking technique. Nobody has been able to mimic it, and EVERYONE he fights thinks they have seen it.

Machida normally doesn’t commit to anything but low percentage point techniques in order to get opponents to counter. His quickness parries those attacks and he easily turns the tides from being countered to being the guy who is countering.

Using the clinch is a good idea, and I am intrigued by that aspect of this fight.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Much like Silva, I see only two types of fighters beating them: the athletic wrestler who can close the gap without taking too much damage and take them down (maybe Mo will be that in a year or two), and the counterstriker, of which there are very few, true, counterstrikers at the MW and above – Anderson Silva, Machida, Fedor in his weird way, Gegard, Vitor Belfort, and a Cung Le that hasn’t been challenged on his ground game. Not a lot in either department

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how about the athletic wrestler who has an 85" reach, and is fast and crafty on his feet….

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s actually 81" but I would give him a definite advantage. I just didn’t think he needed to be mentioned.

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

It’s 84.5", the longest in UFC history.

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

The 81’ I was referring to was Lesnar. Your 84.5" man I see as a future Gegard. In other words, a threat.

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can’t wait til Gegard gets to the UFC, I envision some epic battles involving some combo of him, Jones, and Machida in 2012 and beyond.

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 3:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I’m also keeping my eye on Stanislav Nedkov. Now if he turns out you have a great ground fighter to challenge those guys.

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lebron James?

by bigweeze on Oct 21, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And has utterly terrible technique at this point in the game. Give him time to tighten up his striking then we’ll talk.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Oct 21, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think he said anything about them fighting right now.

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 3:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I am trying to emulate Machida, counter the strike before the other person even gets to make it.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Oct 21, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see, very elusive.

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are right about Machida’s ability to parry attacks, he will most likely win this fight by parrying and landing a simultaneous counter strike. I just don’t think Rua can take these shots and stay standing; even Irish Mickey Ward got dropped eventually.

But, if Shogun can disrupt Machida’s rhythm with the clinch and threaten with takedowns you just never know, Machida could easily lose his form late in the fight and leave himself open to a haymaker.

by nidge on Oct 21, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Machida will see a flying kick, walk away, and counter quicker than anything Arona could have ever tried. This is just bad news for Shogun. Unless Machida makes a monumental footwork mistake, or gets taken down and transitioned on, I don’t see this fight being lost standing.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He’s not going to try any wild kicks like the one he did against Arona/Page/Coleman. When I say Capoeira, I don’t mean the wild kicks, if he uses something from it (big if), it will be to try to counter something Machida throws, not when Machida is just standing in front of him like the other were. Note that when Shogun throws something wild, it’s against grapplers not know for their stand up, he’s not stupid.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There isn’t much you can use from it in the realm of MMA. I mean, there are some stand-up techniques, but they are basic moves in other martial arts as well, nothing Machida hasn’t seen.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

trust me, he’s not going to be in front of Machida doing the jinga, but there are a bunch of moves from Capoeira he could use to counter a strike from Machida that would benefit him. Capoeira is bad against striking MA such as Muy Thai and Kick boxing because their center gravity is straight, Machida leans back and his center of gravity is shifted back, thus making him more vulnerable to some attacks from Capoeira. Don’t make the mistake of thinking Capoeira is all these crazy wild kicks, it’s not, those are just to show off…

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

dunno that i agree that shogun really thought about using those against grapplers only. jackson had a pretty proficient standup game and he came right at him with a few flashy moves.

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

back then

Page was known more for his G’N’P, not for his boxing. Only after Page left Pride he started working more on his boxing.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

meh… sort of in between. how much do you want to bend things to create an elaborate argument of the genius of shogun?

shogun is a great fighter and a good guy, but i hope you are ready to deal with it when he gets beat badly on saturday, in all likelihood…

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I’m doing for Shogun is what most of you guys are doing for Machida, I don’t understand why people get baffled by someone’s else point of view. If I’m wrong I’m wrong, but I have my point of view and I like to share it on sites such as BE. Truth of the matter is that Page was viewed as a dangerous g’n’p guy back then, I’m not making this up. He cleaned his boxing when he started training with Juanito, this is a fact. I’m not bending things here…

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

definitely speak your mind bro! you are obviously just deep in the minority on this one.

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I gotta defend my boy though, most ppl think he’s a joke :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no problems with different points of view. I just don’t like my comments construed as a comparison of two fighters when it isn’t a comparison.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can view it as being comparable, saying:

Exactly. Wild Aggressive is a style that is easily countered by Machida. Thiago was basically wild aggressive.

You are making the assumption that Thiago’s style and Shogun’s are alike, no?

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, I’m making the comparison that Thiago is wild aggressive. And Shogun needs to not come in wild aggressive. I can easily say both Thiago and Shogun can be wild and aggressive, but I won’t say that because they both would use that style… that they are now the same fighter. Thiago’s wild style is still much more brawling than Shogun’s style. Shogun is better than Thiago.

I’m saying that Shogun can’t come in with that type of style.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok, you could have made that clear instead of telling me not to comment though :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, it’s pretty obvious. I never once said Thiago and Shogun are comparable in their actual technical capabilities. I can easily say a GREAT figther has the same style as a shitty fighter. It’s the technical pieces that make the difference.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

not really

saying a shitty fighter and a great fighter have similar styles and this shitty fighter lost to Machida to me is comparing the two styles and assuming the same would happen to the great fighter. People can get different context out of something one wrote, one is not always going to read what you wrote the same way you thought it, this is what I’m saying, and it’s not always obvious. But whatever.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thiago Silva

is far from a shitty fighter. Ask Keith Jardine.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 21, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was using Leland’s words :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it isn’t.

If a fighter’s style is that he’s a wrestler. John Doe is Eastern Iowa fighting at State Fairs has a similar style to any UFC wrestler. He’s just not technically as good.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so if this John Doe was to fight someone who beat a wrestler before, would you use the same example?

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

VAT?

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Que?

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 5:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

何?

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you bro.

The Shogun war wagon is a little bit light at the moment but we’re full steam ahead anyways.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 21, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

welcome to the club! :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll be the first to jump on the bandwagon with you guys…

…Sunday, if he wins the night before.

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 21, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good post but for me, it doesn’t bring anything new to the table. I’m pumped for this fight to happen so I don’t care who wins!

by Ahhhoki on Oct 21, 2009 12:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ironically I think Shogun should go in guns blazing. Because if he fights conservatively or takes a medium approach he’ll fall right into Lyoto’s pace and game. I think patient counterstrikers get uncomfortable when they’re pressed.

Not the best plan, but I like it more than the alternatives.

by IpullguardIRL on Oct 21, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nah, he needs to fake an injury.

by Ahhhoki on Oct 21, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fake heart attack, then punch to the groin. That’s how my old man beats me.

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Oct 21, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

That was not faked, which made it awesomer.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Oct 22, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rua’s best chance is to take down Machida. And being overly aggressive in a Shogun manner is going to put his mouthpiece in the upper deck. Shogun is a different kind of over aggressive. Flying kicks and knees are going to get him clobbered. He needs to be a bit more controlled and watch for counters if he goes in guns ablaze, and I doubt he’ll do that.

The only area that interests me is the clinch. If he can latch on, it’ll be competitive and interesting then.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, there’s a difference between wild-aggressive (Shogun’s usual MO) and pressure-aggressive. Problem being, I’m not sure A) Shogun know how to be pressure-aggressive and B) whether or not that would really phase Lyoto, as he’d just backpeddal and cherry pick his shots. The one thing that Shogun has going for him is his speed and athleticism, which could take an otherwise overmatched skill set and give it a hail mary chance of success. And I’m NOT counting Shogun out. But his chances are pretty… lottery-ish.

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Oct 21, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly. Wild Aggressive is a style that is easily countered by Machida. Thiago was basically wild aggressive. He just ran at him with his chin high and fists pumping. The sumo trip on the fence was an easy indicator that Silva was basically just running at him. He got destroyed.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thiago =/= Shogun… way different fighters

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously, stop commenting already.

I wasn’t comparing the two fighters. I was stating that “Wild Aggressive” techniques are a bad idea. It’s pretty obvious.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He can’t help it. He loves Shogun.

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is true!

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know. Now tell me where to send the flowers Sunday.

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

I’ll wait to see what happens on Saturday first :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thiago has no chin, Shogun does

Thiago leaves himself open all the time, Shogun at least tries to block most times.

don’t worry, I won’t bother you again since you can’t debate? My bad for having a different view than yours…

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again… it wasn’t a comparison between Thiago and Shogun.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

my bad for replying :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he can be conservative when fighting strikers

take a look at the Lil’ Nog fight (whom got superb boxing), he didn’t try any wild kicks. Don’t think he’ll against Machida, it’s not what he does against strikers…

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m really rooting for Shogun to win on Saturday. I know he can pull it out of the bag.

"of a world thats doing its best, night and day,
to make me everybody else"

by Lay 'n' Pray on Oct 21, 2009 12:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think Machida is so far and away better than Rua at this point in their careers that it’s going to be a joke fight. I think Rua is probably somewhere between when he faught Coleman and when he fought Liddell. And if any of those guys show up to fight Machida it’s going to be a very quick night.

I really don’t see where Rua wins this fight. He won’t be able to hit Machida, he won’t be able to get him to the ground. He won’t be able to submit him. I mean I guess he could win a decision but that would require him to be able to mount some type of offense..nope, don’t see that either.

by oasis77 on Oct 21, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I dunno Shogun is arguably the best striker Machida has ever fought. He’s fought good strikers before, but as this post emphasizes Shogun has the most variety of striking options that anyone Machida has fought. I think the fight will at least be competitive.

As far as getting him to the ground, Machida’s never fought a top shelf wrestler who could really blast him with a double leg before so it’s hard to say (Tito with bad back doesn’t count). On the ground there’s probably the smallest gap in skill level, they’re both black belts so it’s hard to compare.

Of course me thinking it’s going to be competitive rides on Shogun showing up in great shape

by IpullguardIRL on Oct 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun has better wrestling than Machida IMO

but this does not make him a great wrestler. He doesn’t compare to the likes of Rashad nor Tito (but than again, they didn’t really use their wrestling in their fights). But Shogun is the more decorated BJJ fighter of the two, two people can have black belts in BJJ and still be worlds apart in their level.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"they didn’t really use their wrestling in their fights"

because… Machida didn’t allow them to. I don’t know if Rashad’s plan included any clinching or grappling, but Tito was obviously all about it. When Tito did close the distance and managed to clinch up, Machida either took him down, or controlled (out-wrestled) him.

Rashad wasn’t given the chance to (if his game plan even included clinch or groundwork, who knows) and neither was Tito. But the couple of times that Tito was able to close the distance on Machida and get a hold of him, Machida out-wrestled him.

by Grappo on Oct 21, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

reply fail

one of those paragraphs was meant to be deleted was meant to be deleted before posting. I’ll let you choose which!

by Grappo on Oct 21, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

reply fail #2

gotta learn to use the preview button.

leave me alone. you have no idea how crappy this day has been. Orcus will have an idea on the 24th.

by Grappo on Oct 21, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

since you have used a VGN gif, I won’t make fun :P

you are right that Tito tried to use his wrestling and that Tito couldn’t handle Machida’s clinch, but Tito has no muay thai clinch. And Rashad hasn’t used his wrestling in ages.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree...

BJ Penn was the best striker Machida has ever fought, and it shows in the fight. Penn actually wins a round and lands some effective shots because:

A.) He moves forward the entire time and eats a load of punches to land his own.
B.) He continually presses and make Machida backpedal into the corners of the ring.

Problem with that is that we aren’t in a ring now, no way to corner Machida, and Machida has VASTLY improved.

Furthermore, Shogun isn’t a technically good striker. Everyone assumes that because he crushed all these people in PRIDE, but it’s mostly non-technical rage striking. His most technical parts of his game are the clinch and ground game. He has some striking acumen in simply standing toe-to-toe, but his PRIDE reign was mostly him coming out in a psychotic rage and just overwhelming guys.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i love pride’s psychotic rage era of wanderlei silva and shogun. ahh memories.

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BJ is a good striker, but he never throws kicks and people know it. The point was Shogun has enough variety in his striking to potentially at least make Machida think.

by IpullguardIRL on Oct 21, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

careful now, Leland does not like different points of view…

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was merely stating that Shogun isn’t the best striker Machida has faced. And he isn’t.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The point was Shogun has enough variety in his striking to potentially at least make Machida think.

now that’s a ringing endorsement!

by Grappo on Oct 21, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, it’s going to get ugly for Shogun if this fight goes past the 2nd round. He was basicaly walking into Colemans punches during that 3rd round. Can you imagine if he gasses against a guy like Machida??

by oasis77 on Oct 21, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So inferior standup, inferior cardio, no soccer kicks. Terrible performance in January. 6 month layoff after beating a shell of Chuck.

Yep, Shogun has it in the bag.

A lot of Pride fans are going to be crying into their beers Saturday at around 11 pm.

by toxic on Oct 21, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

you guys are too funny. I wonder what you’ll say when he comes up victorious :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Hey, Shogun won! Wait, you put WHAT in my beer!?! FLYING PURPLE MONKEEEEYS!!!”

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Oct 21, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

After watching the UFC countdown show, there seems to be an awful lot of hoopla and distraction around Machida right now, I wonder if he’s had a good camp? I wouldn’t be surprised to see a hungry Rua do a little damage.

by WestbergIDFC on Oct 21, 2009 12:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There were tons of rumors of Big Nog having a bad camp at Blackhouse leading up to his Randy fight and look what happened there.

"of a world thats doing its best, night and day,
to make me everybody else"

by Lay 'n' Pray on Oct 21, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt this. Machida’s father and brothers won’t let that stuff get to him. They split to the farm, and Lyoto got to study the monkeys fighting techniques. I wondered about this a bit before the countdown, but Lyoto still seems too disciplined and focused to be bothered by this stuff. I think “hoopla” in a small city in Brazil is pretty tame compared to what Forrest or Rashad dealt with in the states.

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You doubted the rumors of Nog having a bad camp? I remember reading on here that was frequently getting knocked out but as we all know he came out looking sharp as he ever did.

"of a world thats doing its best, night and day,
to make me everybody else"

by Lay 'n' Pray on Oct 21, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he was replying to the post above yours methinks

by Grappo on Oct 21, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our comments are in line with each other, which means I also replied to WestbergIDFC. Replies are indented…and yeah, I’m not buying any bad camp b.s. about Lyoto. Becoming the champ always brings media, fans, etc., but Lyoto lives away from Brazil’s biggest cities, and to top it, they got away into the country to focus. I think these pressures may be easier to deal with when you’re not in Las Vegas, or one of the big U.S. camps. Plus Lyoto has his family as the base of his training, which has gotta help in keeping grounded.

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s the problem for shogun:

The odds of hitting Machida is like winning the lottery… and worse its almost impossible to take the guy down. Now assuming he has a good enough chin to handle a KO type shot – and not flatline – and that you’re lucky enough to land it, then you still have to worry about the probabilities of trying to finish the guy.

Its not good. Get used to these types of betting odds no matter who fights Lyoto… unless its Anderson Silva.

I agree though Shoguns biggest attributes are his athleticism well roundedness… but then again how much of that “athleticism” have we seen in drug tested bouts? He looked real good against chuck but the iceman has thawed.

Shogun needs to explode often and pray that either a shot lands or Machida gets off balance enough to get a takedown. You cant beat Machida at his own game… Rashad tried it and got decapitated. Shogun needs to be crazy, explosive and unorthodox.

by mmalogic on Oct 21, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

give bones jones 18-24 months and we’ve got an awesome title fight

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He needs to get some cardio big time. If Bonnar had one more round, he might have beaten him.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true but… that’s why i say 18-24 months. he said himself he was disappointed in his cardio. very perceptive kid and methinks he’ll get much better.

3-4 more fights and he could be right there. i don’t know who else in the division you can really point to as having a unique and unusual enough array of talents in the way that machida does.

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he needs to worry about hamill first..

by oasis77 on Oct 21, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

beatdown coming

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t be so sure about that.

by oasis77 on Oct 21, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough… off topic

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun vs Randleman and Shogun vs Overeem II

both fights were tested for banned substance and both fights were under the unified rules. Steroid accusations are lame.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still don’t understand how he looked “good” against Chuck. I mean, he won, but it wasn’t some unbelievably technical Shogun. He had his chin down, Chuck landed it while Shogun landed a shot while Chuck has his chin up in the air.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah unfortunately it’s hard to assess the relative worth of the last few guys who beat chuck. chuck at 37-38 years old was not chuck at 35-36.

www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology

by GregS123 on Oct 21, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love Chuck, but Chuck is an example of the fighters that Machida and SIlva are killing. He was a powerful, unorthodox striker that could shrug off the takedown attempts from wrestlers. In Pride he would have struggled (the reverse is true as well, Shogun and Wanderlie wouldn’t have been the dominant forces in the UFC without the ropes and corners).

by nottheface on Oct 21, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love Chuck, but I also thought his reaction time looked notably slower between the Rashad fight and the Shogun fight. Didn’t convince me that Shogun looked that good, or obviously, that Shogun can go 5 hard rounds. Course if it takes that long, I’m sure the decision Dragon will make a reappearance.

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think a big factor in this fight will be

that Machida can easily prepare for a guy like Shogun but not the other way around. “Athletic” and “explosive” muay thai guys are a dime a dozen but who is Rua going to bring in to emulate Machida in trainning? Greg Jackson supposedley brought in some “great karate fighters” to spar with Evans and look what good that did him. And that was Jackson.

Kuwabara Kuwabara

by J. B. Maddox on Oct 21, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe Jackson had the game plan for him Evans just chose not to do anything remotely close to what Jackson planned. He looked utterly confused that whole round.

by oasis77 on Oct 21, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rashad isn’t the kind of dude who goes off the reservation like that. If he didn’t follow the game plan, it’s because Machida shut him down. I’ve watched that fight so many times now, and Machida’s superiority is very clear from start to finish. Even the rare moment where Rashad lands something turns out to mostly be near misses on slo-mo.

The only way I have to explain is that it’s like chess—- the more moves you can think ahead, the better you play. The farther ahead you can plan over you opponent determines how hard you can clown him. Machida is athletic, but most importantly he’s just so far ahead of anyone else in making sure he’s always in a safe but offensively viable position. He’s just 10 moves ahead of anyone he’s fought. Shogun won’t change that, and that’s why he will lose. It’s why Rashad lost too.

by toxic on Oct 21, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least Shogun’s trained with Lyoto a bit. On the other hand, I’m presuming that Anderson worked with Lyoto at least a little, and can probably fight like Shogun better than Shogun can. I’m a huge Machida fan, but I still hope Shogun doesn’t get flat clowned, which is a distinct possibility. The division needs a dangerous viable Shogun in the mix, even if he never has the title, which, he won’t…

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Evans also mentioned that he’s been sparring with James McSweeney, a kickboxer “who mimics Machida very well.” I’ve talked to a few different fighters who train out of the Greg Jackson camp and have mentioned McSweeney as a great training partner. McSweeney is only 3-4 in his MMA career, but the folks at Jackson Mixed Martial Arts think highly of him.

by Grappo on Oct 21, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In retrospect, complete and utter fail.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 21, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, that would be like someone training with Kimbo for a fight against Brock Lesnar to try and emulate his wrestling.

Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Oct 21, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In the countdown Shogun said they were working on wrestling and jits. I really hope he commits to taking Machida down and pounding on him. “Go ’head is possible!”

Im so ready for this fight!

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 21, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well…after a month of rewatching all of Shogun’s Pride fights, and trying to convince myself that he has more than an (anything can happen in MMA) chance, I give up. After the countdown, I’m more confident than before that Lyoto’s head is in the right place, that he’s perfectly prepared, and that Shogun is going down hard. Anderson will be in Lyoto’s corner, and you have to figure that Anderson can mimic Shogun better than anyone, so if they worked together at all for this one, that’s just another thing on Lyoto’s side. Unlike a lot of previous comments, I don’t think Shogun can win a clinch battle either. His best chance is to come out guns blazing, without the acrobatics, and hope for one of two things. One, he catches Lyoto with a big shot and throws him out of whack, since Lyoto’s rarely been rocked before. Or two, and the most likely, Shogun gets dropped repeatedly, but lures Lyoto into his guard, and manages to submit or pound him out. I don’t think he’ll get the chance, but Shogun can take serious damage and recover, or at least he used to be able to, so maybe he’ll get a chance to play possum after getting dropped. The one thing on the countdown, and in Yoshizo’s comments of late, that makes me wonder, is the emphasis put on being aggressive. Lyoto may go after Shogun too fast after landing a good shot, and maybe even putting him down, and Shogun might be able to capitalize. Still thinking Machida stops him with strikes early in the third…

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 1:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

anderson and lyoto don’t train together though (and I’m pretty sure he won’t be in his corner, anderson and big nog were only in his corner once, I think lyoto prefers to train with his family than at black house).

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t recall where, probably Sherdog, but Ed Soares was reported to have said that Anderson would be in his corner. Maybe he just meant that Anderson would be rooting for him. Lyoto won’t need his help, but hopefully Shogun puts up a good fight.

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that Soares guy

is always saying something amusing :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, he’s the Don King of Brazil! :)

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On the right we see Alistair Overeem catching a Shogun kick weighing 50+ pounds less than he does now

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Oct 21, 2009 1:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

it’s those damn horse meat :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I also wouldn’t be opposed to Shogun running up to Machida and pulling guard. That’s the most vulnerable we’ve ever seen him (Tito’s triangle)

by IpullguardIRL on Oct 21, 2009 1:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He'll need to get it to the ground somehow...

and I think Machida will put him there, repeatedly. Maybe Shogun can lure Lyoto down, and reverse him. It’s really his only decent chance, IMO.

by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 21, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As long as Shogun isn’t actually scared shitless in the fight like Rashad was, I think he’ll take it.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Oct 21, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

come to think of it to expand on my earlier comment about pressing counterstrikers.

I generally prefer to counterstrike when I spar, and I’m most comfortable when I get my opponent in a state where he becomes tentative. It puts them on the defensive even when I’m not making any aggressive actions, AND it makes their striking easier to counter because they aren’t committing as hard. (in my opinion this happens to many of Lyoto’s opponents and becomes their undoing)

I am most uncomfortable when I am being pressed continually and they are fully committed to the attack.

by IpullguardIRL on Oct 21, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the main reason

People aren’t seeing this fight being close isn’t because of a lack of respect for Shogun, more because of peoples exaggerated view of Machida. By no means am I saying Machida isn’t a great fighter, but I do think like many great fighters he can be at times overrated. He’s got great counters and can really mess people up when he catches them at certain times, but Shogun is gonna have the best striking , the best chin , and the best gameplan (sorry Greg Jackson) that machida has ever fought against on his way to the title. Shogun will have opportunities to get this fight to the ground, and if he does manage to keep it there for a while, you can be sure that Machida’s style will lose some if its prettiness and agility. I dont see machida being able to finish shogun like he did against Thiago and Rashad, and I’m no Shogun nuthugger.

by Hendo_One-Shot on Oct 21, 2009 2:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, Shogun is far better than any other fighter Machida has faced to date, he’ll be his toughest fight. I also think people are too quick to give some people unstoppable status. To me both Machida and Lesnar has much to prove still by winning consecutive title defenses before claiming such statuses, they still did not prove themselves such as GSP and Anderson Silva.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

precisely

you can’t be unstoppable before defending your title at least 3 times, Sorry machidaness followers : /

by Hendo_One-Shot on Oct 21, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Orcus,

on a possible positive note. The odds should be so ridiculous against Shogun that if does pull out the win you rake in a ton & have a blast at Carnival when I come down there!!

Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.

by dnevil001 on Oct 21, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t bet :P

But if I did I’d put the house on Shogun haha

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I would advise against betting the house-if you

were a betting man, but the freaking odds have got to be crazy if he wins so maybe just bet the guest house or something.

Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.

by dnevil001 on Oct 21, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But if the odds are really high, wouldn’t it be a good idea to put 100 on Shogun? if you’re a betting man this is a good deal :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you have it to possibly lose & dont have to

worry about it, I would think it is. I feel bad for even telling you to bet on him though man. Even though he is your boy & if you were a betting man you would probably do it w/o me prompting you, but still.

Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.

by dnevil001 on Oct 21, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha

don’t worry, I’m a big boy and I know how to spend my money :P (which is why I don’t bet in the first place hehe).

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shogun needs to push the tempo of the fight, come at Machida hard fast and often to setup a takedown. If Shogun has him on his back i think he can control him and fire some nice elbows and maybe a flying punch for old times sake. This will be a battle whoever wins

by bigc4277 on Oct 21, 2009 2:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

I've just watched both of Shogun's fights with Overeem...

and he seems to severely lack strength.

I think this could be a factor considering that Lyoto has gorilla strength. Seriously he must do, if he only started to do weight lifting since his camp for Tiago Silva.

This could be a huge factor, especially since everyone is sleeping on Machida’s wrestling.

The only thing for me is I can see Machida facing some adversity in this fight, it will be interesting to see how he deals with it. I can see Shogun either catching him with a high kick or putting him on his back and testing his jiu-jitsu.

by Ilias on Oct 21, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Shogun will win by ko in the 3rd....

and the world will be shocked by the sight of piss yellow blood dribbling out of Machida’s banged up face.

by blam!thud... on Oct 21, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As most people here I think Machida will win. However, I think there are multiple ways that this fight could be interesting. The Clinch as Leland noted is interesting because Shogun is vastly superior there. If Shogun manages to get this to the flor and be on top, Machida could be eating a lot of shots, and some interesting flying punches while Shogun jumps in his guard. What I really would like to see is Shogun rough Machida up, weaving himself close, punch, shove and elbow him from close quarters. See how Machida reacts, although getting there might be a significant problem. Also, to me, it is vital that if Shogun gets Machida to the ground, that he Sakurabas Machida’s legs.

One thing that this article fails to recognize is that Shogun has thrown a lot less kicks in the UFC than in Pride, he has concentrated a lot more on his boxing. As a result I am not sure this really applies to this fight. Plus, if he managed to improve significantly his head movement while working on his boxing, he could surprise Machida by closing the distance a lot more easily than Machida thought. That said, I think Shogun loses by TKO somewhere in the 3rd.

by blawa on Oct 21, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It seems fairly comical that everyone assume Shogun’s golden ticket to victory is to try and take the fight to the ground. Isn’t this the same Shogun that was submitted by Forrest Griffin a mere three fights ago? I realize that it was his UFC debut and that he was coming off of consecutive knee surgeries, but it’s not like he’s made a habit of tapping guys out in the past. In fact, I’m fairly certain that Randleman was his only career submission win.

Shogun will try to impose his will in the striking game and end up taking a nice little nap.

by Velcro on Oct 21, 2009 5:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

actually

he had the knee surgeries after the forrest fight. And Shogun likes to bang, this is why he doesn’t have a lot of subs :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since when going to the ground necessarily ends up in a submission? Shogun’s ground game is Gn’P, top control and jumping in for stomps and punches.

by blawa on Oct 21, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn’t, but if you reference back to all of the previous comments, I don’t believe that a GNP scenario was ever even broached. Most everyone who claimed that getting things to the ground was favorable for Shogun mentioned things like his allegedly superior BJJ and pulling guard, neither of which is typically discussed in the same breath as “GNP top control” or “stomps and punches.”

by Velcro on Oct 21, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he does have a sick g’n’p though

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Shogun wins it’ll have to go down as one of the greatest career comebacks of all time.

I used to bet against Machida all the time, but then I got tired of being wrong.

Keep firing Assholes!

Never trust a man with no shirt on.

by Ubernoober on Oct 21, 2009 5:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The tornado kick is a TKD technique, although he doesn’t tilt back properly. Same with the switch kick.

by ununkvadrium on Oct 21, 2009 8:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

maybe he doesn’t tilt because he got it from Capoeira… Shogun has never trained TKD.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 21, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think any possible kicking technique

is going to have an analogue in TKD

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 21, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beat this man?

The Monkey King shall not be defeated by a mere mortal.

by Grappo on Oct 22, 2009 2:22 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Even the insects seek to be near greatness.

by Grappo on Oct 22, 2009 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's got a nice resort

my dad only has a few horses and a pool, the pond is dried out and we got a few birds :(

I’m jelous!

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 22, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's pimpin

big time.

I wouldn’t want to leave that compound.

by Grappo on Oct 22, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok i likes the judo chops a lot but capoeira kicks? he is clearly faking a leg kick to set up a tornado kick go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ZE9Ivs9Kc

by mr. gogoplata on Oct 22, 2009 2:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

this is a demo

look at the second kick

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 22, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just saying, many MA’s have similar moves, but executed differently.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 22, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is a pretty similar kick but you can notice how shogun is using his hips and the rotation of his jump kick to generate the force. By jumping off his right foot and doing a complete spin he generates more power…. but it is slower. The capoeria demo kick he is facing the man he is about to kick when he jumps off his right foot, shogun is almost turned around. It is a tornado kick adapted to mma but that just shows how dynamic and underrated shoguns striking is. :)

by mr. gogoplata on Oct 22, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

for some reason, I thought you were talking about the kick against Rampage, which is the one I listed above. The move he did agaisnt Arona is called Parafuso.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 22, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I researched it a bit further, looks like the Parafuso you land with the foot that you used to kick. The one Shogun did against Arona seems to be called Martelo Rodado. I found two examples on youtube if you want to check them out

Example one

Example two (last kick)

I’m not an expert on Capoeira, I used to do it when I was a kid, but I hardly remember most of it. My only point is that Capoeira has a bunch of kicks, so many that it’s understandable that other MAs might have similar kicks, even though they were created at different times and culture. It’s just a coincidence that Shogun’s kick resembles the Tornado kick from TKD, it appears both TKD and Capoeira have some similarities, and this does not mean Shogun has in fact done TKD in the past.

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 22, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is great guys!

it’s like a fantasy of how a judo chop comment section will turn out. I’m learning a ton! thanks so much.
I think it’s very possible that Shogun could have learned the technique from TKD — Anderson Silva trained at Chute Boxe with Shogun and is a TKD black belt after all. But I’m leaning toward capoeira at the moment.
Thanks to both orcus and mr gogoplata for the good info!

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Oct 22, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks

glad I could add something to the conversation :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 23, 2009 4:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just one last note

I can’t find the interview, perhaps it was in Portuguese, but Shogun has once said that the guys at Chute Boxe used to do a Roda (which is basically playing the Capoeira game) after each training session. He said it was good to loose up the muscles and relax with the guys. But I can’t find the interview, so take it for what it’s worth :P

SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!

by orcus on Oct 23, 2009 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thx for the props :) i believe shogun vs. dragon is fight of the year material no matter who wins.

by mr. gogoplata on Oct 23, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahh i see good point and good videos id love to ask shogun where he gets his striking techniques from(besides muay thai)

by mr. gogoplata on Oct 22, 2009 6:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs


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