Don't Hate the Playa, Hate the Game: Defending Roy Nelson's TUF Performance
by Mike Fagan on Oct 2, 2009 7:00 PM EDT
in News
117 comments
The American fight fan does not appreciate an intelligent gameplan.
Just ask Anderson Silva. Silva took few risks en route to a unanimous decision win over Thales Leites at UFC 97, drawing near-universal ire from fans who paid to see a helpless Christian sacrificed to the middleweight lion. The message came through loud and clear: kill, maim, and pillage. Or die trying.
Following his patient deconstruction of Kimbo Slice, fans have dismissed Roy Nelson's performance as too cautious, unimpressive. The general tone implying some level of cowardice from "Big Country".
But let's face it. The ultimate goal for a fighter, and I don't think this can be argued, is to inflict damage on his opponent while avoiding his adversary's attempts to do the same.
This point gets magnified on the Ultimate Fighter. To reach the finals, a contestant will have to fight a minimum of three times within a period of two months. Winning becomes a misnomer; a fighter must SURVIVE to move on to the next round.
I won't argue that Nelson's performance deserves to go down in the mythical oral histories of fight sport. The fight was no more aesthetically pleasing than Roy's full-body profile. But we should at least appreciate the efficiency with which our rotund warrior carried out his gameplan. He lulled Slice into a false sense of striking security and took him down when the opportunity presented itself. From there, Nelson trapped Slice in a crucifix with the cold-blooded and systematic precision of a hungry desert snake.
Nelson exited the cage looking much like he did when he entered it. He won't have to worry about scar tissuing opening up, nor will he be favoring a fresh ligament sprain. He took complete advantage of the skill mismatch presented to him in the fight.
If you're still not convinced, picture the following scenario. Roy and Kimbo meet in the center of the Octagon. Following the obligatory feeling out period, punches are thrown. Punches are landed. Roy's given up all pretense that he'll bring the fight to the floor. It's a slugfest that gives Don Frye and Yoshihiro Takayama pause. Nelson rocks Kimbo, sending him stumbling into the fence. Roy rushes in, smelling the fresh blood of Miami meat...
...and then he wakes up with doctor's shining lights in his eyes. Roy asks what happened. "You just got your ass knocked out, son."
Imagine the adjectives we'd use to describe Roy on Thursday morning. Stupid. Reckless. Bone-headed. (And let's not forget the most obvious: fat.)
The fight certainly fell far short of the promotional muscle Zuffa put behind it, of that there is no question. But Roy played the game exactly like he should. And for that, I can find no fault.
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Awesome! I have to say it’s less babe ruth calling a home run than Tiger Woods yelling “Ok, I’m going to lay up!” But then maybe that’s just because I’m a poorly informed american fight fan.
i always enjoy an article that starts off questioning the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with it’s position.
by Stanlee on Oct 2, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people expect a good fight.
Sure you will always have the people that call out what they think is stupidity but as dumb as it might sound I would have rather seen Silva lose the Leites fight trying to finish then taking the decision.
I can appreciate a good decision and if you look at the UFN before TUF 10 that was a great night of fights with most ending in decisions and I think most people can appreciate that but it’s always gonna be about entertaining the fans.
Look at 103 if my memory serves my correctly that dallas crowd was booing everything from the Griffin-Franca fight to the Dos Santos-Cro Cop fight and I thought both of those were good fights.
I think people were dissapointed in the Slice-Nelson match up because most know Kimbo as the knockout guy and so they wanted to see a stand up war and instead they got Nelson holding Kimbo down and raining blows on him that were not that hard. Roy did have Kimbo in a good position but I bet there was a good portion of people that believed it was Roy’s weight holding Kimbo down not the position and Kimbo’s lack of ground skills.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 2, 2009 7:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t fault him for doing what he did, especially when he knows the set-up of the show means he needs to fight again. I just thought he was a bit of a jackass after the win.
Smart win? Sure. But beating a guy with no ground game in a mundane fashion doesn’t really warrant prancing around and getting your coach to poor water in your mouth. Save yourself for the finals,sure. But save that kind of thing for when you’ve got something to celebrate too.
by kid_eh on Oct 2, 2009 7:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He was making those Whopper remarks because his teammates dared him to do it, so he said fine, I will do it.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 2, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won, so what? He cocky attitude
is going to get him KTFO. Can’t stand Nelson.
by SmittytheCutman on Oct 2, 2009 7:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly why is Roy cocky?
Is it because he is used to training his own way? A way in which has brought him more than a fair amount of success in MMA and jiu-jitsu? Or is it because Rashad Evans and Dana White, of all people, intimated that he has an attitude problem? Not sure I’d believe what either of those two say. Especially since Rashad has since stated that he would like Roy to be part of Greg Jackson’s team after the show had wrapped up. And Dana White is a loose cannon who, at one time or another, has probably said worse about every single UFC fighter.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Oct 2, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Roy Cocky?
Ummm..Because we say so. And we don’t like him. And we want him to lose just because.
That’s all. Nothing personal….Just business. lol.
by BNTHIS on Oct 2, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But in all seriousness, I didn’t appreciate the burger comment either.
Yeah he did what he had to do. But he didn’t really impress anyone.
by BNTHIS on Oct 2, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not doubting you or anything....
I can see striking being something you can train on your own, but I can’t imagine someone earning a black belt in a grappling discipline doing it without some sort of school behind him.
by black dragon on Oct 3, 2009 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. What Roy has done thus far in his own training, independent of an MMA team’s direction, has worked. That’s not to say joining an established MMA team wouldn’t help him in the future, though.
However, it was still Roy’s decision to incorporate the teachings of Renzo Gracie into his training/skill-set.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Oct 3, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nelson should not even have to be on this show. I think its garbage he wasnt the first fighter picked as well.
by b2tharad on Oct 2, 2009 7:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It wasn’t Roy’s fault the fight was boring.
It was Kimbo’s.
Roy did exactly as he should have, especially considering how quickly he will have to fight again.
by JeremyShane on Oct 2, 2009 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
You know what, this is true. Roy did what he had to do to win, it wasn’t even cheap. kimbo didn’t though. Well he did everything he could, but that’s really not enough in the octagon.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 2, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point Jeremy
I have always thought that and hate when people blame a boring fight on one fighter, WTF why not get the W as easy as possible. IF the other fighter can’t stop what you are doing why change it up and take a Unnecessary risk. Especially in that fight with Kimbo. If Roy stood with Kimbo like so many wanted and had that back and fourth slug fest and he got caught and KO’ed that is a loss that would haunt him his whole career no matter what he did from that point on. Bottom line it was a smart game plan on Roys part and KImbo’s fault he could not stop the take down and make it a stand up fight like he wanted.
by Shocbomb on Oct 3, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nelson had a smart approach, but that’s not so smart in the pocketbook, nor in the ‘wanting to stay in the UFC’ dept. He could smart his way through the rest of his career and win the Casino World Championship. Because no one wanted to watch that. So was it smart? Yes and no. IF he had made it a match, then he could have signed his golden ticket for the rest of his career. BUT he chose to waste one of the most watched MMA events on TV to lay on Kimbo. It was sad, and there’s no defense other than intelligent laynpray. I have a feeling they won’t be hearing Fagan’s clapping over the torrent of boos.
by ndf on Oct 2, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
thank youmike fagan.
i wish roy wouldve gone for an armbar or kimura or head-arm triangle or northsouth choke or anything though
by greenseedbc on Oct 2, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He shoulda gone for a flying scissor heel hook, he’s a pussy for not doing it.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 2, 2009 9:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
He traded his ability to fly against a ground game oriented belly.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 2, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So he traded flying for frying?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 2, 2009 9:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The backlash from this fight is interesting to witness. All the hype and hints over the last week and the only thing everyone knew was that it was a great fight and that Kimbo proved his worth. And what did we get? What we should have known was going to happen – a better fighter taking Kimbo down and methodically finishing him. We can only blame ourselves for believing the promos for a reality show.
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Imagine if you paid PPV for that. It could have always been worse. Now Dana, let’s put Kimbo in the cage with a fighter who has some sort of killer instinct.
by ndf on Oct 2, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He said killer instinct, not killer haircut.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 2, 2009 9:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I have to say I am ashamed of some the comments regarding Roy Nelsons win. Hes fat, get over it he is a fighter, if he makes weight and wins fights. His place in the UFC is justified.
As for the executed game plan. People, this is MMA. Isnt this the beauty of the sport. The fact that it can go to the ground. If you want stand up fights only, watch boxing or K1.
I personally wasnt expecting ol Kev to fight so soon. BUT, this does go someway to prove that the UFC isnt kissing quite as deeply into kimbos butt as we all thought. Im amazed he is what he is. But I respect the guy. Hes making money doing his thing. Just like we all would do given the chance.
Dont hate appreciate!!!!
by mmahh on Oct 2, 2009 8:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
While I don’t agree with Roy’s gameplan, he won legally within the rule’s wording.
But even in saying that, it seems like such a loophole. And I don’t like it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 8:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You don’t agree with which part of the gameplan?
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 2, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not gameplan, I guess.
I find it ridiculous that he used a loophole of unanswered shots as his finish.
You have to produce MEANINGFUL OFFENSE, not pitter-patter. I understand that it doesn’t state, but MEANINGFUL OFFENSE should be pushed into the rules.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you have been happier if, after locking the crucifix, he rained unanswered power shots to Kimbo’s face? He disabled his opponent and then demonstrated he could inflict attack him with impunity. What more was there to prove?
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I would have. It would have been meaningful offense. It’s a loophole, and it’s utter bullshit. I don’t really care about the outcome. Roy was going to win, but meaningful offense done, not slaps with knuckles.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he incapacitate Kimbo and showed he was defenseless by whacking him in the face. He could have easily unloaded heavier shots, but chose not to. And I say he chose, because he called it earlier in the show that all you have to do is slap an opponent and show he he can’t defend himself. By unloading on Kimbo all he would be doing is risking injury to a defenseless opponent (Kimbo) or himself.
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Leland, to win an MMA fight that doesn’t go to a decision you should have to do something that would win you an actual fight elsewhere.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 2, 2009 9:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
He never INCAPACITATED Kimbo in the first round. EVER. Give me a break.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, replace INCAPACITATED with IMMOBILIZED...
does it change the point?
by Razreshat on Oct 2, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
IMMOBILIZED doesn’t warrant a stoppage.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd rather watch 5 minutes of Roy slapping Kimbo on the forehead...
because Kimbo is too skill-less on the ground to stop it?
Roy proved that Kimbo had no answer and did so in a way that left both men capable of fighting another day. You can thank him when Kimbo is physically able to take advantage of someone getting sick/injured later in the show (like next week).
by Razreshat on Oct 2, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because that would cause Roy to actually PUNCH harder. Meaningful offense is what I want to see. We disagree obviously.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So even though Kimbo was helpless, you would want him to blast him in the face to end the fight? Wouldn’t that have been unnecessary at that point?
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
^ That sounded more snide than I wanted it to.
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you aren’t hitting the guy with force, Kimbo could technically get out eventually. Why don’t you simply end the fight with harder blows? It just makes no sense to me. Meaningful offense should be used. Getting around the rule because it’s unanswered shots, no matter the power?
That basically means I can slap a fool with 40 unanswered shots and have it ended.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about if a guy is too ignorant to realize his arm could be
broken in an arm bar he hasn’t been able to get out out of for the last minute plus, but refuses to tap?
Is it wrong for the ref to stop that fight and there for the eventual winner should simply break the other’s arm?
by Razreshat on Oct 2, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tap or snap. Should the Maynard/Huerta fight been stopped due to the kimura?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 2, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My sentiments, exactly.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kimbo didn’t tap, so he snapped and went and got his gun.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 2, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Should a fight continue even when a fighter can’t see due to bleeding or a closed eye. I think the argument in those cases is that it detracts too much from his ability to defend himself. I think you could make the same argument for a fighter stuck in a hold and powerless to stop shots to the face.
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 11:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Actually when on the ground blood gets more easily into a fighter’s eyes due to positioning, off the top of my head I do not think that any fight has ever been stopped due to a cut when a fighter is on the ground. It has always been can they see when fighting stand up. I could be wrong however.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 3, 2009 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It happens
Just last night in the McKee/Prater fight the ref stopped the fight when McKee had Prater on his back and had the ringside doc examine a cut on Prater. The doctor decided the fight could continue and they started the fight in the same position, reset in the center of the ring.
"Yeah we came up short today but I'm cool with things." -- Juan Pablo Montoya
by capital L on Oct 3, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where was the cut?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 3, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eyebrow, right eye
"Yeah we came up short today but I'm cool with things." -- Juan Pablo Montoya
by capital L on Oct 4, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not, but I won't be suprised if we hear about
rotator cuff surgery for him in the not so distant future either.
by Razreshat on Oct 2, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, since the definition of incapacitate is to deprive of strength or ability, to disable and is a synonym with to helplessness and powerlessness, and Kimbo was doing shit once he was locked in the crucifix, I would say he was incapacitated.
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should really read theses before posting, because not only did I miss your comment about the first round, what I wrote also reads a lot more sarcastic than I intended.
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 11:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
What's funny is that this in effect is no different than a stance...
that Damian Maia has taken about how he prefer’s to win fights.
Additionally, this way of winning allowed Kimbo to walk away in the sort of shape where he can conceivably come back if someone else can’t compete. That wouldn’t be the case if Nelson cave his skull in or split open his forehead.
All you Kimbo fans should be thanking Nelson.
by Razreshat on Oct 2, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll be thanking the person who manages to beat Nelson, actually. heheh…
by BNTHIS on Oct 2, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d have much more of a problem with it if he wasn’t in a tournament. If I play in a softball tournament my team does just enough to win so we can go deep into the tournament. If we are playing six games in a day we want to take it easy the first few games and not bust our ass and diminish our chances of winning the whole dang thing.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
by dedstrk316 on Oct 2, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a good point, but really… two big shots, Dean has to be ready to step in. Now, it became this dance for Dean whether he should or shouldn’t stop it.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
totally agree. Close the loophole
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
by thetakeover on Oct 2, 2009 8:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
*disagree
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 2, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, Nelson practically noogied his way to victory.
by Dropkick434 on Oct 2, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nelson practically noogied his way to victory.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing against the gameplan, just the performance
For someone with his experience and all of his reluctance to acquire any sort of new skills, going against a guy with virtually little training in anything but a standing game, it was a disappointing performance. He looked terrible when he twice got Kimbo into the crucifix. And let’s be honest, it looked like Kimbo was going to win that fight standing up.
I hope that he’s actually progressed since then to the present. I’m not surprised at all if Kimbo can pick up his ground game (it sounds like he’s been training very diligently since) and we possibly even see a re-match at the TUF Finale or soon after where we see things go the other way.
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by Bryan Everson (The Royalty of Roto) on Oct 2, 2009 8:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It looked like Kimbo was going to win that fight standing?
LOL, it looked like Roy was going to win when they announced Roy and Kimbo were on the show. Regardless of the first round, Nelson was easily on his way to winning both rounds.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 2, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Bryan was referring to the Stand-up game and Kimbo possibly knocking Roy out.
I also think Roy was ahead in the Scorecards but those don’t matter if you get your ass KTFO’ed.
by BNTHIS on Oct 2, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not surprised at all if Kimbo can pick up his ground game (it sounds like he’s been training very diligently since)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with “But Roy played the game exactly like he should. And for that, I can find no fault.” outside of that I do think his weight is a problem, to say otherwise is medically oblivious. and I would have been pissed if that was a main event ppv that I paid for.
by cagefightonacid on Oct 2, 2009 8:46 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Weight issue
The weight is a problem and I am suck of hearing people saying its not they must of only watched his Elite XC fight and a FEW IFL ones that only lasted the 1st round ? Because the weight has showed being a huge problem befroe and in my opinion even cost Roy a few W’s in his career. The best 2 examples being the Rothwell fight in which he probably would of won if he did not gas like he did in the last round and a fight he would of won if not for gassing against a fighter Roy should of killed in BODOG Josh “Buffalo head”Curran. Roy gassed hard in that fight and so did Curran but Roy was more out of shape and it was the leading reason why a sub par fihgter like Buffalo Head was able to get the W over Nelson. The Gas tank showed also the more I think about it not was much but in the Monson loss and a fight he got the W but he was gassing in the IFL against Shane OTT, Nelson should of schooled a can like Ott instead becasue he got tired it went to a decision. All I am trying to say is alot of people act like the weight is not a problem with Roy when in Fact it is. I wonder how much of a better fighter he would be with out all that body fat ?
by Shocbomb on Oct 3, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy time machine, Batman!
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/stories/archive?year=2007#2
Check out contemporary articles written back in the day with the benifit of 20/20 hindsight!
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 2, 2009 8:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What? The Dana’s Mouth F#cks $h!t Up Alert article?
by nottheface on Oct 2, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t complain about the fight, it was free.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 2, 2009 8:49 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd
and that is the bottom line…(cuz Stone Cold said so)
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Oct 2, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is that familiar?
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 2, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did someone else already say that? haha
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Oct 2, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just sounded right, like something from my childhood. I can’t explain it.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 2, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Former WWE fan?
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Oct 2, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate that attitude with a passion
You can complain about anything with which you have a legitimate gripe. I watched a college football game on network TV today and didn’t like a bad call—I can complain about it even if I didn’t shell out money to watch the game.
"Yeah we came up short today but I'm cool with things." -- Juan Pablo Montoya
by capital L on Oct 4, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anytime a more skilled fighter can display his dominance without even having to hurt the other guy, that’s beautiful to me. I’m probably in the minority on that, though.
by JRN on Oct 2, 2009 9:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It’s the line between tap and snap.
Keep firing Assholes!
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by Ubernoober on Oct 2, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m with you, it puts the art in mma. Just because it was not a blood bath does not mean skill was not involved.
Hello, Japan!
by Mr.Kib on Oct 2, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are not alone…
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 2, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I liked the fight, cause I thought it was lame when I was watching it, mostly because of Roy’s post fight attitude. But once I heard Dana complain (about the fight, not the attitude, I think he was right about that) like he just watched kalib run, it made me think: Roy did what he had to do to get the win, and it’s not like he organized a 3rds lnp snoozer.
“Don’t hate the player, hate the game” was exactly what I had in mind.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 2, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make excellent points, but this was the same kind of effort Roy put forth when he fought Jeff Monson.
It was a very lackluster fight. Roy never seems to go all out, but rather does the least amount possible.
by Lynchman on Oct 2, 2009 9:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and…? Why would someone put unnecessary effort into something?
“Man, I can carry this wood to the back yard just fine. But for no reason, I’ll spin in circles and skip while doing it!”
If he can win, what’s it to you how much effort it takes him?
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the Kimbo fight I’ll begrudgingly agree with you. But he pointed out that he’s also been rather lack luster in a fight with Monsoon and he ended up losing that fight. I get the “art” defense and the “not having to kill your opponent” thing. I really do. But just as a fight fan, I would have not even a hint of a second thought if two of those shots had looked like there was more force than my girlfriend’s daughter gives me a high five.
by black dragon on Oct 3, 2009 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As has been pointed out by others already, this was basically an exhibition match. Roy did exactly what he wanted to do, twice, which was to control Kimbo and get the fight stopped while taking/causing the least amount of damage. From his position he could easily have rained down elbows instead of peppershots.
Would people (specifically Dana White & co.) have been happier if Roy opened a huge cut on Kimbos head, or caused him a concussion? Roy did the smart thing.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because when you fight Kimbo on television, millions of people will watch. It is a chance to look impressive in front of a lot of eyeballs.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 3, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and with a win, he gets another chance. And with another win, he gets another chance, etc, etc.
or he could get all fancy and goofy and risk a loss, and be done.
Roy fought the smart fight, even if you don’t like how he looks.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That chance was seem by more people than all of the UFC PPV buys this entire year. Here is hoping his next chance is seen by a third as many.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 3, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they all got to see him beat Kimbo easily.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh joy. Should we put Roy in the MMA Hall-Of-Fame now?
….is there a MMA Hall-Of-Fame? lol.
by BNTHIS on Oct 3, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think beating Kimbo makes one worthy of being in an MMA hall of fame?
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless of how Roy and Kimbo fought...
Regardless of how Roy Nelson and Kimbo Slice fought, they both showed extreme weakness in their ground game. Watching the episode before the fight, they showed that Kimbo has a problem with moving big guys when he has them in his guard and defensive mount.
What the episode didn’t show was that the TUF coaches either failed to teach Kimbo how to properly use his hips to reverse positions or that Spike and the UFC are just trying to make the fight more dramatic.
Regardless of who won, both fighters displayed the fact that they are not ready for the UFC. If they walk into the Octagon with those ground skills, they are going to get seriously hurt and embarrassed.
Personally, I think Herb Dean should have stood them up. And Herb has even been quoted as saying that maybe he should have stood them up.
Again, it’s a difficult decision to make when the fight is happening before your eyes.
http://www.fightstoptalk.com/
by Karmakaze on Oct 2, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If they walk into the Octagon with those ground skills, they are going to get seriously hurt and embarrassed.
True for Kimbo maybe, but to say that about Nelson tells me you don’t know much about the guy, and makes me wonder whether we saw the same fight. Roy is a BJJ black belt. He transitioned seamlessly to several dominant positions (mount, side control, crucifix). He also once beat Frank Mir in a grappling competition. To say that his ground skills aren’t up to par for the UFC is completely off the mark.
by JRN on Oct 2, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes Roy Nelson clearly cannot hang with UFC champions
by Lyrias on Oct 3, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen the video before and I just watched it again. But don’t you think it is silly to bring up something that happened six years ago? In six years, a lot of things change. Just look at a Couture or a Royce Gracie.
Maybe I over-exaggerated on that quote, but you failed to counterpoint where I said that they are not ready for the UFC. Who has Nelson really fought? Ben Rothwell, Andre Arlovski, and Jeff Monson, which were all losses.
You can blame it on me thinking that the IFL was a crock, or whatever, but I don’t feel he has faced talent like he will in the UFC.
And if you strongly feel that he is ready for the UFC, let me ask you this. The UFC has former IFL competitors (Rothwell), so why is Nelson having to go through TUF to make his mark and get into the organization? After all, he is an IFL champion.
http://www.fightstoptalk.com/
by Karmakaze on Oct 3, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Rothwell was absorbed via the Affliction deal
Roy has talked about it in interviews, they flat out told him he did not fit the mold of a UFC fighter. This way he can fight his way into the UFC without having to change anything about himself. We can debate if that’s really a good thing or not (personally as much as I love the fact that he’s a fat guy with good ground skills I think he’d be better off dropping the weight) but he made that choice.
He really beat Monson which was clear to anybody who saw that fight (except the judges) and the Arlovski fight was not only taken on short notice but also has that extremely questionable stand-up which doesn’t exactly make it a fair barometer of his skills.
You are arguing that a Renzo Gracie Black Belt is lacking in ground skills, that’s why I linked the video (he was just awarded the black belt as well so obviously he’s gotten better in 6 years). In that same tournament he tapped Vera with a knee-bar and suplexed Diego Sanchez.
What he lacks and has always lacked is an intelligent stand-up. He throws alot of wild punches and is far too willing to get hit, something that might work against the likes of Imes and Sherner but not against better more powerful strikers. Can he enter the UFC heavyweight division and dominate? Absolutely not, there’s too many bigger, more powerful wrestlers who will nullify his BJJ not to mention expose his striking, but if he doesn’t succeed in the UFC it will not be because he is somehow lacking in ground.
by Lyrias on Oct 3, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee you that when Dana(or the UFC) told Roy he did not fit the mold of a UFC Fighter, it was mainly ‘cause of his Weight Issues and that Big ol’ Belly of his.
by BNTHIS on Oct 3, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another great article Fagan
Did you quit drinking this week or something?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 2, 2009 11:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I kicked my junk habit. Be prepared for more drivel in a few weeks.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 3, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re always prepared.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 3, 2009 11:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Casual fight fan != American fight fan. Do not lump every US fan into this nonsense. There are plenty of Canadians and Brazilians and Europeans who would watch that fight and see it the same way. Do not confuse the reactions you see on message boards here and other places with every fan, for two reasons. First of all, simply because when you have a board populated mostly by Americans, most of the reactions will be phrased as such. Secondly, when someone disagrees with something, they are more likely to say something about it when compared to a person who agrees with it.
Think of it this way, do you more often see [point a] followed by [counterpoint b] or followed by [yes, i agree with this, repeat of point a]?
by KrmtDfrog on Oct 3, 2009 12:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This article gets the Fedor Seal of Approval
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
by mythbuster on Oct 3, 2009 12:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Even though I'm ok with how Roy won
I can’t help but draw a parallel of sorts between Forrest Griffin and Roy Nelson on current issues.
We have people screaming that what Forrest has done (with his post fight antics and not giving good interviews) is unacceptable. The most frequent stated reason seems to be that it’s the fighters job to talk to the press. Don’t like it? Tough, do it anyway. We need to know why you ran out of the ring….blah blah blah. Some people have said that if he continues to do that kind of thing then he will erode his fan base and buy extension, the UFC will lose PPV buys.
Now we have Roy Nelson that did just enough to win the fight. One might say that it is his job to put on exciting fights that people want to see, because if he does not….his fan base will evaporate. People won’t buy PPV’s to see him because of the fighter has become, etc etc etc.
While I’m OK with Roy, I’m very opposed to the notion that Forrest has to talk to the media in a way that appeases the masses. I’m as guilty as anyone as having differing view points on similar issues. While I know that they are different situations, I still see a common vein running in the two.
I guess I’m just playing a bit of devil’s advocate.
by soadtrails on Oct 3, 2009 9:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not only do I not think any athlete is required to talk to the media, but I kind of get a hard on when those same athletes give journalists a hard time in the process.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 3, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I agree with you on that part, well minus the semi you get ;-)
I stayed out of the discussions regarding Forrest because I would probably have gotten in trouble in the process. I basically found it funny that people were calling him a baby…but to me it seemed those same people were the ones crying into tissues.
Back to the subject, I’m sure that Roy will ramp up the showcasing of his abilities as he gets more and more tough opponents. That being said, It really shows how good Kimbo is if Roy just kind of fiddle farted around and won quite handily.
Where does Kimbo go from here? LHW? Does he become a gatekeeper’s gatekeeper? Trounced out of the UFC after a few fights the UFC can make some bank on? Fed only stand up guys? Lesser promotions (I’m sure Strikeforce would jump at him)? K1 (He’d get murdered)?
Maybe Greg Jackson can help Kimbo out. Perhaps he needs to be taught this stuff in a different manner than he has been in the past. Maybe he’ll get a chance to come back to the show after an injury happens, and he will make a better showing. He’s got to have SOME kind of inkling what to do on the ground, he did submit Mercer (ok I was laughing as I typed that).
by soadtrails on Oct 3, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He submit Mercer….but you know what? He did submit SOMEONE, at least. Which is more than I can say for us armchair-MMA-fans.
I also hope Greg Jackson gives Kimbo the proper training he needs after TUF is over.
by BNTHIS on Oct 3, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree that nobody is obligated to talk to the press I think part of the reason MMA has been so succesful is because of the large group of hardcore fans (us) that follow it, and part of the reason we are so passionate is because the athletes are much more accessible than in the NBA or NFL. If Forrest doesn’t want to talk then fine but don’t be surprised when the backlash comes because the same people who built you into such a big fan favorite can tear you down just as quickly.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 3, 2009 11:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, I think a guy can still be accessible to the fans without speaking to elements of the media.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 3, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree but that’s still a part of it. If being accessible means sitting there signing auto’s with a scowl on your face and not saying a word like Forrest was doing at the fan expo in July then maybe it’s better if they arent.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 3, 2009 1:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Nelson said that his win over Kimbo was a business move because he wanted to be healthy for his next fight…
It’s pretty stupid business move, because he could get caught on the jaw in the next fight, and 6 mln viewers will remember him as a boring, fat guy who got knocked out. Pretty bad exposure and not exactly long term planning.
He could easily submit Kimbo, and none of this shit would be discussed, but he chose those silly arm punches. I don’t know, maybe he got extra food for not damaging Kimbo…
by dancingChicken on Oct 3, 2009 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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