honestly, it’s really a case by case basis….

if i had to generalize…. if your submission attempts are so frequent and earnest, that they dominate the period spent on the ground to a greater degree than your opponent’s ground and pound damage, then it should matter so far as the judging. to simplify, it comes down to whom is the aggresor.

otherwise, sub attempts have their own built in penalty, in that generally a failed attempt will result in a guard pass.

it’s so complicated though….defining what constitutes a legit sub attempt vs just filling time and showing off for the judges….

Getting in the position to throw a sub means you’ve done something to gain an advantage over your opponent—I consider this offense, and it should be rewarded as such.

>Randy having Tim’s back for a round
>Nog with the gator roll on Randy
>So many I can’t even think of them all

It must be hard to write an article about anything Breen writes, he makes plain English seem childish.

I agree with Breen that quality submission attempts should be given a lot of credence. I gave Cerrone a lot of credit for the guillotine, especially, yet gave the round by the slimmest of margins to Henderson. I will say, this, though: I don’t fault anyone for scoring the round for Donald. I could see it scored either way. I watched round one on two separate occasions and still feel that Ben won it but I don’t see how anyone could argue that it wasn’t a really close round. No matter who would have gotten that close decision, neither fighter would have been “robbed” in my opinion.

I highly score submissions that appear to do damage. If the guy doesn’t tap, but it looks like his arm got shredded, I consider that like a knockdown but not a knockout. If a guy looks like he’s out of breath after a RNC, I score it like a knockdown but not a knockout. But if the dude easily flips over on the arm bar and is never in any real danger, I consider it like a slipped punch—no points for anybody.

I just want to add one thing I think makes a good argument for submission attempts counting for more.

If you NEARLY break a guys arm or choke him unconscious you get little to no points. Hell, if you were pounded on for the better part of that round with rabbit punches from a guy that was on top for 4 minutes of a fight you will lose the round 9 out of 10 times.

However, if you hit a guy with a stiff left hook, he goes down, but quickly recovers and the rest of the round there isn’t much action, that’s a given 10-9 round for you.

I guess so many people have this boxing scoring mentality where a knockdown = winning a round.

The truth of the matter is, that submission that nearly finished the fight should have just as much scoring value as the punch that knocks a guy down.

Cerrone won that fight.

 Strong sub attempts can have a lasting negative effect on the escaping fighter and they should be scored as a strong strike would be.
Cerrone, fought a stupid fight and primarily used his sub attempts defensively(at least that’s how it was perceived since he was nearly always on his back. ) I thought Cerrone would have him once or twice but Ben was the fighter who was primarily controlling position that night. Why didn’t DC jump on Ben when he was lying on his back? He made no attempt too use his size to controll Ben. Hello donald, you can punch him in the face when he’s on his back.

Nice to see both Breen and Luke talking some sense on this issue. MMA fans who are hostile to scoring close submission attempts make no sense to me.

The idea that escaping a submission should be worth anything is nuts. You don’t reward a fighter for getting out a position he shouldn’t have gotten himself into in the first place. There is no judging criterion for “effective defense.” Good defense is its own reward.

hell yes! Cerrone couldn’t get anything going on the feet.

i didn’t se the fight live (no Versus in whistler) and i lost on cerrone so that tempered my enjoyment when i watche it. Even so, the fight got a bit monitonous and predictable. Cerronoe didn’t unleash much striking so it cant be a top 3 candidte IMO.

Let Joe Rogan be the only judge for every MMA match.

One thing that is very obvious is that this is a very convoluted issue. The Cerrone fight is a perfect example of this, people all over scored the fight very differently and even Cerrone said Henderson won. Hard to fault the judging when even the losing fighter agrees with it.

It isn’t submissions it’s the entire system that is convoluted here. Even going by Breen’s ideas leaves us with scoring that is completely subjective to what the judges opinion is. The rules for scoring a fight are just too vague and until they are laid out in excruciating detail on how things should be scored these kinds of issues will always be around.

When you are asking judges to make decisions based on a vague structure and their own opinions about what they see then of course there will be disagreeing opinions. It’s a subjective system there is no “right answer” there are only opinions.

^ Good point. One thing I’ll say on behalf of MMA judging: I grew up a fan of boxing and saw some really bad decisions there. In MMA I rarely see what I would construe as a robbery. I think that, for the most part, the judges do a very good job.

i gave that first round to cerrone b/c all henderson did was defend against those 2 sub attempts in a row, and then threw some punches from the top. again, i see it as “potentially fight ending” rather than “who was on top” in terms of scoring a round for a fighter over another.

As I said when the Cerrone decision was rendered, it is pretty clear that near submissions are under-valued in MMA. On the contrary, if you nearly KO someone then you are generally going to be rewarded w/that round.

The idea that you should get points for surviving a near submission is as ludicrous as getting points for getting knocked down and concussed from a punch, knee, kick etc but surviving the round.

I have to agree with pwrcartels comment that where the attempt came from matters as it determines who is controlling the fight based on location. If its standing and you hold your opponent in a guillotine for a round, youre controlling it and thus scoring regardless of if you finish. The same can be said for getting side control and going for subs out of that. Emphasis on control. In these positions attempts should count as much a ground and pound that fails to KO and opponent.

Fighting from your back, you are not dictating where the fight takes place. The fighter on top could stand up at any time. On the bottom, while you may be comfortable, you do not have control.

When youre not in control, attempts that are defended are no better than punches that are blocked or slipped. Do the haymakers Rashad threw against Machida count just because he was being aggressive, regardless of if they were defended? No. Do stuffed take down attempts count because the fighter tried? Nope. If youre on your back, it is an all or nothing move because youre not in control.