UFC 104 Preview: Can Mauricio "Shogun" Rua Thrive Without Soccer Kicks?
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 3:26 PM EDT
in Technique
165 comments
Michael David Smith asks the question:
Look at the career record of Shogun Rua, and you'll notice something unusual: Of his 18 victories, two are listed as TKO-stomps, and three are listed as TKO-soccer kicks. That's unusual, of course, because stomps and soccer kicks are illegal in the UFC and other American promotions. Shogun became one of the best and most exciting fighters in the world in Pride, where stomps and soccer kicks were allowed, but as he prepares to fight UFC light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida at UFC 104, I've had a few fans ask me: Can Shogun become a champion under American rules?
Shogun's reliance upon stomps and soccer kicks was actually greater than you might think from hearing that he used them to finish five of his 18 victories: In other fights, such as his 2005 victory over Alistair Overeem, stomps and soccer kicks were an integral part of how he took control of the bout, even if they weren't the way he finished it. Stomps and soccer kicks were, quite simply, Shogun's best weapons, and he's now fighting under rules that take his best weapons from him.
I've been meaning to do a Judo Chop on exactly this topic, and if time allows, I still may.
Regardless, I'm glad MDS is raising the question. It's the obvious question about Shogun's adaptation to UFC rules. I've never thought steroids were that big a factor in his difficulties adapting. Other than blanket assertions that since PRIDE didn't drug test Shogun must have been roiding (as if drug tests really prevent PDE abuse), there's no evidence.
There is massive evidence that Shogun's two devastating knee injuries and the following major surgeries happened and that had to impact his performance. He's suffered the kind of injuries that ended a career less than fifteen years ago. The jury is still out on whether he'll ever be the same athlete.
But I'd argue that the different rule set and fighting area (cage vs ring) has had the biggest impact on Shogun's game. Chute Boxe, the legendary camp where Shogun learned his trade, thrived in the ring from the beginning. Whether it was Jose "Pele" Landi's legendary feud with BJJ ace Jorge "Macaco" Patino or Wanderlei Silva's legendary bouts, the Chute Boxe fighters positively fed off the chaos they could create in the ropes at the edge of the ring.
Tying up an opponent in the ropes while firing a barrage of knees, sprawling way past the ropes to stuff a shot, stomping a opponent tangled in the bottom rope were all hallmarks of the Chute Boxe style. Shogun was the ultimate product of the camp, the purest exponent of their style.
He used the ring to fullest advantage so it should be no shocker that he's had trouble adapting to the cage. His mentor Wanderlei Silva struggled in the UFC cage back in the 1990s (long before there was drug testing FWIW) and still has never matched his triumphs in the ring. It remains to be seen if Shogun will.
It's also an interesting commentary on different cultural mores of what constitutes socially acceptable sporting violence in Japan and the U.S. In Japan, soccer kicks are fine, but elbows are not because the Japanese don't want to see blood in their contests . In America we are apparently revolted by the unfairness and obvious dangerousness of kicking a downed man in the head, but we don't mind rivers of blood.
Some doctoral student should do a PhD on this and throw in the different rules of censorship in place for pornography in the two countries as well. In Japan they allow all kinds of acts Americans consider obscene but they pixel out the performers' genitals out of a similar squeamishness with bodily functions.
One last thing I want to say is this: I think it's not only valid, but important, that major league MMA fights be contested in at least two types of venues, if not more.
Dealing with logistics and adapting to differing environments are essential elements of combat strategy in all forms. In warfare it's always been a given that some armies thrive only in their home terrain (mountain, jungle, steppe, etc) while others learn to adapt and conquer many kinds of territory. The fact that from its modern inception MMA fights have been contested in two main environments (the cage, the ring) has given the sport a true frission of unpredictable reality. I hope we can continue to see this in the future.
Tennis wouldn't be the same without its alternating surfaces -- grass, clay, hardcourt. MMA needs both rings and cages to truly remain a test of martial arts. The more fighters adapt to a single surface and lose their ability to adapt, the more we're playing a game rather than testing skills and strategies in a realistic simulation of fighting.
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Nicely Done
Twitter ain't no bitch homie! -> @El_Duderino1312
by midwestbred on Oct 17, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
shoguns elbows from the top were pretty brutal against griffin(not allowed in pride). I think he’ll do fine without soccer kicks but they sure are fun :)
by mr. gogoplata on Oct 17, 2009 3:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
why is Tennis the standard comparison? If American Football, baseball and Soccer were always played on grass it’d still be the same game (take away field turf)…Basketball is always on same surface, ice hockey is played on ice, most golf courses have same kind of grass, boxing is always in a ring, Nascar, IRL and F1 are always on same type of surface…
don’t see why MMA needs a ring, and why that’s considered truly a test of martial arts, how is the fight being stopped all the time because people are too close to the ropes a true test and fight? adapting to restarts is a martial art? how is getting tangled in ropes a true test? how is hooking yourself on the ropes (acting accidental) to avoid getting taken down or improve your position a true test? restarts are not a true test of anything…and when someone grabs the cage its clear and called, can’t accidentally grab the cage or get yourself caught it in…unlike if i’m cornered can just put my arm in the ropes like I’m not doing it on purpose and help myself not get taken down, or even on the ground, get in the ropes to get a restart, or hook arm in ropes then help pull myself out of being stuck on the bottom…
I get it’s your opinion but don’t see how it makes it a true® test…
besides that, nice call on Shogun and his kicks…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 3:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
my bad, didn’t know Nate wrote this, can delete the above comment (breaking the disagreement rule, rule 4 or 5 or whatever)…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can always differ with me in a logical and polite manner
that’s the whole point of having comments.
The first comment is not just welcome, it’s exceptional.
The second comment however, with its shitty and snide implication that I’m punishing people who disagree with me rather than people who are being dicks is walking the line.
And you know it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
last time I differed it was in a half joking/half logical manner and got a warning…
was honestly not trying to imply anything or be snide, just thought two warnings equal ban and I was questioning your post with a long comment of my own, didn’t want to risk it…my bad
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
your racing comparison has its faults—Nascar, IRL and F1 use tracks of varying sizes and shapes and bank angles to test their drivers in different ways. Even in Nascar where you just turn left in an oval, there’s no comparison between Daytona and Bristol.
by judonerd on Oct 17, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
surface…not design…
Daytona is raced on a beach anymore… :-)
if F1 raced on dirt, then concrete, then grass, etc…
otherwise ya, I’m aware of the tracks, plus in F1 there is road courses and street courses…nascar has oval and road, IRL has oval, street and road…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is an edit, it’s labeled “preview”.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 9:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
There are concrete and asphalt track…There are also 2 road courses in Nascar.
I’d argue that the difference between Infenion and Daytona is larger than the ring/cage difference.
by SES 84 on Oct 17, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya, my comparisons only make sense if you get the point I was trying to make which you and judonerd didn’t (thats on me, not you two)…
its about having different rules…Infinion road course and Daytona oval, yup, they’re different, but you still have pit stops, change tires, still have the lucky dog, still try to win, still have cautions, etc…doesn’t change the sport itself, just like a muddy football field or a field turf field, they are different but the rules dont’ change, still playing the same game…
not playing the same game when its cage/ring imo, ring jacks up too much shit and have the restarts, holding ropes, etc and etc…already said that all…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get your point
They would be changing both the surface AND the rules. I think the ring alone would change some aspects without allowing stomps/kicks and that would be interesting, but Overall to my post below I don’t think MMA needs the variation at the moment.
by SES 84 on Oct 17, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOW
I guess i need to reread the rules and straighten up because I already have one…
Just disagreeing in a half joking manner?….smh (shaking my head)
to the rules section i go…
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's no set number of warnings before you get banned
if you’re contributing we’ll put up with a good bit of sass.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I appreciate that.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 6:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Moderators are human as well, so try to take into account stressful situations like live blogging…from personal experience.
Btw Nate, you gonna be at the UFN if it comes to Virginia?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
going to try
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good News...
:) because i don’t know when i’ll get over to the rules section lol.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry if I overreacted
sometimes guys get it in their heads that they’ve got a beef with me and I thought that was where you were heading. good contributions to the discussion.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve got a beef with you Nate but I don’t hold it against you. :)
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 6:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I probably overracted first trying to get my comment hidden…
:-)
I don’t have time to have beefs with people on the internet, plus I enjoy your history of mma stuff, always reference it to friends or when I’m at other sites and people don’t know what the hell they’re talking about…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
both the cage and ring distort the fight and turn it into a contest
and that’s fine, but I think the important thing is that the environment changes.
The cage with its barrier imposes a big difficulty on grapplers on the bottom because they can only pivot or sweep to one side.
More than that the absence of knees to the head of a downed opponent rewards really sloppy shots that should end in disaster.
The point is that both environments are artificial and I like seeing the variety.
If I had to choose just one, I’d pick the cage FWIW.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yup, agree on the grapplers on the bottom part…plus being able to push off something (the cage) isn’t “true” really either…
do believe knees to the head (in cage) would be very close to a legit rule set and imo would be the best test possible for MMAers while still having rules…
still, anything that stops/restarts a fight is a huge negative in my opinion….not to mention the ease in which fighters can get away with grabbing ropes to stop takedown or improve position, puts refs in position of guessing because it could be accidental but most of it is on purpose while trying to act like it was accidental…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are many flaws with the ring
I agree. I always preferred it to the cage. It was only towards the end of the PRIDE era when I realized how many great fights I’d enjoyed in the ring that I realized how much I appreciated it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually like the constant restarts in the ring. It gives the fighters time to catch their breath.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 18, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sometimes it gave unfair advantages to fighters who where gassing, as opposed to fighters who were on top getting ready to go for the kill. i did like the fact that pride let fighters whio got poked in the eye and/or suffers cuts from said pokes, to be able to be tended to by a ringside physician and the fighters corner. i don’t know why the ufc hasn’t incorrperated this rule. also i feel that it should be MANDATORY that the fighter who gets poked should be forced to take the WHOLE 5 minutes, regardless of how they feel( i’m thinking spears vs geoge s. on tuf), sometimes a fighter thinks they are ready due to adrenaline, but really are not. i know this would tick off the crowd, but it would be the fair and the right thing to do imo.
by bdw on Oct 18, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tennis is the point of comparison
because it’s one sport where the variety of surfaces greatly enhance the game and allow a wider variety of skill sets to thrive.
I think the artifical turf/grass indoor/outdoor warm/cold environmental differences in football greatly enhance that sport as well.
In baseball, the fact that some ballparks are huge and pitcher friendly and others are small hitters parks is a nice bonus as well.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get why you used tennis…
my point was it’s still the same game in those sports, in mma too much changes…
in tennis when you’re on a clay court they don’t don’t raise the nets 5 feet. or on grass if you’re too close to the net they don’t pause the game in the middle of a volley and restart it when the players moved back a couple feet so he/she is away from the net…
same in Football, I love when it rains, mud, snow (aka Football weather)…but they are still playing the same game, field is same width and length, point of the game is still the same…
as for baseball, ballparks are way to small now, but still, even with distances different and different outfield designs, still same game, its not like in some stadiums they pause the game if an outfielder gets to close to the warning track…
ridiculous comparisons but that was my point, in a ring the sport gets changed to much from what it should be…pauses, restarts, blatent cheating and nothing that can be done to stop it (grabbing ropes)…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think there's no substitute for the adaptability
it forces on fighters to have to compete in different environments over the course of their careers. The YAMMA pit was a bust, got a better alternative to the ring for fighting surface #2?
I’d love to see giant wrestling or judo mats used.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya, was going to add in my last post if only we could use something like the WCL used….but just don’t see that working in mma…but it’d be ideal if it could work (as would wrestling mats or judo mats, etc…)
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm blanking on the WCL format
was it some kind of raised surface?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a little hard to tell from this angle but the red part of the ring slants up, kind of like YAMMA pit.
by Big4Nuthin' on Oct 17, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya, I didn’t watch much WCL, but from what i remember the red was out of bounds as opposed to wamma with that slant effecting the fights…
more to the point was agreeing with Nate that a flag surface, mat or whatever without being enclosed is best but impractical…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now what I wouldn't mind is...
Coming up with alternatives to the cage besides the ring…I agree that the cage is not absolutely PERFECT for MMA…so those who are coming up with different things i think are great. Judo mat etc. only to increase visibility allow grapplers room on the ground.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want corners!
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love the ring, but that ring is damn sexy.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 18, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean that cage is damn sexy. I can’t wait to see its floors stained with large pools of blood.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 18, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not really true
Futsal (indoor soccer) differs quite a bit from regular football. it’s two completely different games.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whats not true? who said anything about indoor soccer?
thats like saying “thats not true, field hockey is way different from ice hockey”…of course it is…
arena football is different from American Football also…
nice call…
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it’d be interesting to see players cross train…Like how would various players skills stack up in a different enviornment.
I’d love to see messi play futsal.
by SES 84 on Oct 17, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you watch the qualifier game for Argentina, that was close! I thought they were going to be out of the top 4. As much as we are rivals, I’d hate to see a world cup without Argentina :P
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately not...highlights only.
Its hard to keep up on all these fringe sports (soccer, mma, ski racing, cycling) I follow in addition to the big ones.
At one point it looked like both messi and Ronaldo could have missed out on the WC which would have been amazing.
I’ll also apologize because this is wildly off topic.
by SES 84 on Oct 17, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ronaldo is not in the Cup (unless your talking about the fake one from Portugal :P) Sorry to any Portuguese readers in advance, just a light jab :P
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No offense to Original Ronaldo who was one of the best players ever…but C. Ronaldo can now deserves to be called by just his middle name…
by SES 84 on Oct 18, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there is only one R9!
:P
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 18, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice article.
I have thought much the same myself.
I find it almost comical that many Shogun fans consider him to be a KO artist and high-level striker when much if his success was due to kicking people in the face and stomping on their heads.
Yesterday, someone talked about how Shogun would CLEARLY be the more powerful striker when facing Machida. I don’t really know where this mentality comes from.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 17, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
right
because 5 out of 18 is a big number eh? sure, he used a lot of stomps in bouts he did not KO or TKO’d by stomps/soccer kicks, but a lot of people KO’s using fists even though they used elbows throughout the bout, does that mean that had they not used elbows they wouldn’t have KO’d someone?
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you cant deny that Shogun’s opponents took a lot of defensive measures to avoid the stomps and kicks. not having stomps and kicks also forces shogun to follow his opponents to the ground and engage in grappling/gnp battles.
by judonerd on Oct 17, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is true, he had the risk of getting upkicked in the balls (which he sometimes did). it took skills and balls (no pun intended) to do stomps!
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stomps and soccer kicks, two things i disliked in Pride.
by dancingChicken on Oct 17, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
loved stomps and soccer kicks in Pride…
all for fighter safety but both added alot to the fights…(same with knees on ground)
by Reaser16 on Oct 17, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think knees on the ground serve a legitimate purpose. Soccer kicks and stomps, on the other hand, really do nothing but make it seem more like a street fight.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 17, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how can people say
stomps and soccer kicks are a health risk? There is no evidence to back that up, there is only the “image” notion that it’s brutal to use. Someone who is not an MMA fan may think MMA is brutal, but have no legitimate evidence to back their theories, the same is done with the soccer kicks/stomps by MMA community. There is no evidence for that.
BTW, I used to love that too :P I miss pride
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no offense, but i think it’s stating the obvious that they are “health risks”, but most mma moves are. hell the whole sport is a health risk. i just don’t see where there is much technique or sportsmanship involved. also the everyone would be able to use them, so it wouldn’t just provide former pride fighters with an advantage. sorry you miss pride so much, but i’m sure you know that the ufc is planning on runnning a "best of pride " series on spiketv starting in jan. not that you can’t see alot of it on the net, but it will be nice for newcomers of the sport to see it during primetime.
P.S. i still would hate to seee what someone like BROCKLESNAR! could do with stomps and head kicks to a downed opponent. i think it would set the sport back to the old “human cockfighting days”. P:
by bdw on Oct 17, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, thousands of sanctioned MMA bouts and no death nor permanent injuries makes MMA statistically a health risk free sport. I’d love for the to be able to bring the human butt stomp too! (mark hunt lol). The part about the technique aspect of stomps are various, but the most obvious one is that back in the days BJJ fighters would fall to the floor on their back and invite the striker to follow them to a ground war, and this is a perfect opportunity for stomping their faces off :P (many BJJ fighters still do that to this day, it’s nice to have the stand up rule, but sometimes it’s better to see them paying for doing something like that).
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where’s the technique in wildly hammer fisting a dude on his back?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 17, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first rule of project BROCKLESNAR is you do not ask questions.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 5:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Fagan
comparing hammer fists to foot stomps and kicks to the head of a downed opponent is like comparing a stick of dynamite to a firecracker-HUGE DIFFERENCE!. LOL.
by bdw on Oct 17, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s really a matter of how you look at it. I think it takes more skills to jump in mid air and land with your foot heal on an moving opponents had (without getting castrated in the process) than dropping various punches from the top. That’s how I look at it anyways :P
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i didn’t think he was using hammerfists against mir, i thought they wre straight punches. good point though. :)
by bdw on Oct 17, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a mixture of hammerpunches and straight fists.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 6:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The majority of the damage was from non hammerfists due to the position of Mir’s head.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me too
where’s the technique in that? just think if all BROCKLESNAR! had to do is take opponents down and then preceede to kick them in the mouth and stomp on their faces. not very sporting. seems as if both the rua bros should have been soccerr players. :)
by bdw on Oct 17, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a very good question
It’s almost like taking knees to the face away from Anderson Silva. To be honest though, Shogun hasn’t been standing over his opponents very much in the UFC.
As for the multiple venue types, I am completely against it. Not only do fights in the ring suck with all the stops and repositioning, but then fights won’t even be conclusive anymore because we’ll be wondering what would have happened in the ring, cage, etc. Ugh, no thank you.
by Razzel on Oct 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
first of all it’s a good article with good questions.
taking the tennis example: it’s not like they play tennis on different size and shape courts, which i think would be more equivalent to the MMA difference of ring vs cage.
it’s just that the more i see ring-based MMA, the more i see unjust outcomes for a lot of fighters, and bizarre oddities occur because of how guys get tangled in the ropes.
a fence enclosure just seems to work better with MMA, in my opinion…
www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology
by GregS123 on Oct 17, 2009 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Coleman fight would have ended
in round one with knees to a downed opponent. The fight was halted temporarily for a knee to the shoulder that was close, iirc.
Hopefully, sometime after NY sanctions (fingers crossed), we can talk about changing the rules in the USA.
by sacterre on Oct 17, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, legalizing knees to a downed opponent would be MMA’s version of the 24 second shot clock rule in the NBA. This would not give wrestlers the big advantage they currently have of being able to shoot in and avoid serious damage when their opponents sprawl.
Something clever goes here....
by Narcisist on Oct 17, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agee with knees to the head of a downed opponent. it would keep the laynprayers more honest.
by bdw on Oct 17, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly feel that knees should be allowed on an opponent who is on one knee (ex. Marquardt vs Leites). I am opposed to knees on a completely downed opponent (ala. Sakurai vs Aoki). I am on the fence about knees on an opponent who is on both knees. It would give a person with a good sprawl an advantage because there are fights where fighters shoot in on an opponent but his opponent sprawls, and the fighter who did the shot can just hold that position without facing much danger.
by chrisbboy82 on Oct 17, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A rule change KNEEDS to happen!
Good night folks…Drive safe.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Oct 17, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would make a good poll
I for one am against it. Knees to a standing opponent are brutal enough, they don’t need any help from gravity.
by Razzel on Oct 17, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eliminate the knee to the head in the Thai clinch, imo.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 17, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, you’re against the Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva style beatdown?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 17, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all. But IMO, grabbing a dude’s head and thrusting it into your incoming knee is much, much more brutal than kneeing a prone man’s head.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 17, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
the knee to the head was the victim of bad luck — see McGee, Gan.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was always under the impression that outlawing knees to downed opponents ( soccer kicks etc.) was to protect a fighter in a defenseless position. where as knees in a thai clinch you can attempt to block or disengage from the hold.
and for the record, i hate the ring like i hate boxers who stall by clinching. its human nature to grab the ropes, tie yourself up and the cage prevents alot of that.
by sadface on Oct 18, 2009 1:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I think knees to the head of downed opponents are not really needed and don’t make a huge difference to fights anyway. Clearly there’s a few fights where their use has been devastating such as Sakurai Aoki recently, but in many Pride fights the guy on the ground simply blocked them pretty easily. In UFC fights it might seem like they’d be really effective but turtled guys would just have to block them, clearly they don’t block the sides of their head now because there’s no point.
Saying that, pushing a downed fighter against the side of the cage and firing knees to their head could be pretty devastating, and something which was never seen in Pride. Overally however, I think they don’t make a huge difference and aren;t needed, the rules are fine
by StevenGiles on Oct 17, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, that knees to the head of grounded opponents aren't that necessary...
though I would like there to be more judge’s discretion as to whether something is actually an illegal knee, if it occurs as the fighter who is struck is just going down to a knee, for example. I don’t like seeing guys work the rule by dropping a knee to the ground when knee strikes to the head are imminent. Should be a “fighters in motion” exemption. And the classic, north-south knees to the head on the ground may be out, but I’m surprised more wrestlers don’t go to side control and just drive knees into the side, the kidneys, the “leeevvverrr” etc. Seems like not enough top control type wrestlers take advantage of that.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they don’t make a huge difference, there’s absolutely no reason for them to be outlawed. It’s the same retarded argument I’ve had with people about footstomps. “OMG THEY COULD BREAK SOMEONE’S FOOT.”
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 18, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
:)
www.tapology.com | twitter.com/tapology
by GregS123 on Oct 17, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tennis wouldn’t be the same without its alternating surfaces — grass, clay, hardcourt. MMA needs both rings and cages to truly remain a test of martial arts. The more fighters adapt to a single surface and lose their ability to adapt, the more we’re playing a game rather than testing skills and strategies in a realistic simulation of fighting."
I personally do not like the Ring at all, it is terrible for strategy if your a good ground fighter. I always hated the officials pushing the fighters back into the Ring from the outside of the referee stopping the action to bring the fighters to the center. It is a big waste of time and kills the rythym of good fights.
Something clever goes here....
by Narcisist on Oct 17, 2009 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't much like the restarts either
but got used to them as part of the pride package.
Do keep in mind though that the arm bar that Big Nog beat Cro Cop with wouldn’t have happened in the cage because he wouldn’t have been able to spin to either side in a cage.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I once made a comment about the lack of soccer kicks affecting foreign fighters under American rules. I was severely flamed about how this didn’t matter.
"Negative, negative. I gotta stay lean and lightning and ready to fight." Capt. H.M. Murdock
by BadB on Oct 17, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
life is cruel like that
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, i was sad for a few seconds.
"Negative, negative. I gotta stay lean and lightning and ready to fight." Capt. H.M. Murdock
by BadB on Oct 18, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One time I fell in a puddle and got my
new jeans all dirty.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 4:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
the same pants you were on your way to return??
by mictlantechutli on Oct 17, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The very ones.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 6:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
What about the shape of the fighting arena? We typically compare “ring” vs “cage”, but that refers to the construction of sides. It’s possible to have a square cage or a 6-sided ring (as rare as those are), but I think that is just as crucial as ropes vs fence. It’s much harder to trap someone in a corner the larger the interior angle is. Is this worth examining?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 17, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How about burning coles surrounded by an electric fence? ULTIMATE FIGHTING RAWRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 6:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
If nothing else, you can’t successfully accuse the original promoters of the UFC of failing to think big. Specifically, in addition to such outrageous ideas as putting electric fences around the ring, one of their many schemes was to include live alligators thrashing around in moats. Fortunately, UFC doctors were a bit more practical in their thinking, advising against such plans because of the potential harm these could do to the fighters.
5 Things You Didn’t Know: The UFC (Emphasis mine)
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 18, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Rorion's defense
he said “It’s Hollywood man!” haha
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 18, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
how would a square cage be? the corners would be deadly
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we can hook guys up with the "invisible fence" like for dogs :)
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so if fighters get outside the boundaries, all they hear is the Pride chick screaming their names, Goldberg repeating “It’s all over” in a monotone, or Yuji repeating “Give Up?” over and over until they get back inside the “virtual octagon”. (Begins researching patent law…)
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
...or Rampage shouting "Get back in there!"
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 18, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my perfect world
there would be no cage or ring but just a large flat surface, kind of like in grappling tournaments but much bigger.
But then you would have your Kalib starnes kind of guys and it would turn into a track meet.
by TennesseeTopTeam on Oct 17, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Doesnt matter
Does matter if he can’t use soccer kicks? He has to get Lyoto to the ground to use them. The cage won’t allow him to cut off Lyoto. The key is, Shogun needs to put his hands up when he strikes in this fight unlike his last two fights.
by JayW on Oct 17, 2009 4:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s also an interesting commentary on different cultural mores of what constitutes socially acceptable sporting violence in Japan and the U.S. In Japan, soccer kicks are fine, but elbows are not because the Japanese don’t want to see blood in their contests .
I think Japan’s major problem with elbows is the fact that it can end a fight prematurely rather than the bloody faces. There has been too many fights in Japan fighters are taking blood baths and they continue to fight.
In America we are apparently revolted by the unfairness and obvious dangerousness of kicking a downed man in the head, but we don’t mind rivers of blood.
Not trying to be an ass here, but where is the evidence the kicking a downed opponent can be dangerous? There has never been any permanent injury by someone getting kicked nor stomp while on the ground.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but the japanese would stop a fight from a paper cut. i’m not sure the stomps and kicks are banned solely from a health risk perspective though (i could be wrong). i think the ac’s just see it as “DIRTY”.
by bdw on Oct 17, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I think it’s banned mostly for the visual aspect than an actual health risk.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah you might be right
i think the soccer kicks are banned more from unfairness, but it’s also likely they’re very dangerous — force of gravity, potential to stomp on the head from a leap and the mat acts to trap the head so the brain absorbs all of the impact and weight.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’m pretty confident stomping on a man’s head is especially dangerous.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Oct 17, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn’t Shogun use his pattented “stomp” on a downed opponent if he avoids the head/neck area? Sure, it’s not quite the same, but I’m sure that would still be effective. Though I suppose the risk of him missing and stomping on someone’s head could be an issue.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 17, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure the only legal technique is a GSP-esque axe kick to the midsection.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 17, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think he could stomp to the body in the UFC
can someone check the rules on that?
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true i will come back with a link but to my knowledge body and leg kicks are allowed but most people don’t out of fear of kicking the head.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I’m wondering if this is why knees to the body on the ground are so rare. That guys just have it in their head that it’s close to the line. I didn’t mind knees to the head from the north-south position in Pride, but I’ve wondered about this, since knees to the side, to the shoulders, etc., can all be very effective for a top control specialist, and yet we rarely see them. GSP vs. Serra I thought was a pretty good case study in how punishing that can be if your top control is good…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bas Rutten is a big fan of knees to the body and thighs of a downed opponent.
It’s effective, but there is a risk of losing your position (side mount).
by dancingChicken on Oct 18, 2009 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’d agree it’s not for everyone. I think of guys with great greco skills, or generally great upper body control on the ground, like Dan Henderson, Yushin Okami, Clay Guida, and such. I’m waiting for Jon Jones to suplex someone right into side control, and unleash a flurry of long, sharp knees to the body for a TKO. He tried it a bit against Bonnar if I remember right… Or a guy holding an arm triangle choke that isn’t quite biting deep enough, to drive some knees down to soften his opponents defense.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I even remember that Jones trained with Rutten at some point, so maybe he got “inspired”. They both appeared on MMA for Dumies on MMA Live.
Rutten has a lot of good tips, but they’re useful for guys with open mind and I guess Jones has one.
by dancingChicken on Oct 18, 2009 6:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the stomps/soccer kicks will be an issue. Shogun has defeated Overeem using these tools in Japan, but he also defeated Overeem in American rules as well. Shogun is a great athlete, he adapts well to the unified rules.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is what I think. I think his last few fights were a result more of his two knee surgeries than a lack of soccer kicks or stomps.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 17, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After Shogun knocked down Liddell..
He was about to throw some soccer kicks before he remembered “Woa, woa..not in Pride”
I definately don’t think it will be a problem for Shogun
by MSEMCEE on Oct 17, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
if this article prevents a judo chop on shoguns pride days
ill be really disappointed.
do it. do it.
by judonerd on Oct 17, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there are some technical issues we're working on
hoping to do it.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree. I love watching the alternate styles that adapt to the ring as well as the cage. I thought that Affliction offered an interesting contrast to the UFC.
Shogun’s soccer kicks didn’t seem that integral to his style to me. He definitely took advantage of the opportunity, but it seemed like by the time he ever used them, he was already well in control and the outcome seemed imminent.
Just thinking about the fighters that adapt the best overall in terms of cage and ring, I can’t help but put Anderson as the clear favorite for being just as dangerous in a ring as well as cage. Machida is a close second, but he probably doesn’t do quite as well in a ring as he isn’t able to create the distance.
by Dooda on Oct 17, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anderson?
He totally has a much better record in the cage than in the ring. Not sure that the venue had anything to do with it though.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I’m thinking more in his current ability and style. It just seems to me like he’s the guy that will destroy just as well in a cage as in a ring, where most others thrive on either having more room to circle and back, and others thrive on less room cutting off fighters and getting them in the corners.
by Dooda on Oct 17, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely Disagree With The Last Paragraph
The analogy would be appropriate only if one of the Tennis alternate courts were Grass with say…bushes or a tree that occasionally disrupted the game and caused a restart, as the ring does for MMA.
The ring may be better for viewers but the octagon including the cage is perfect for MMA. It is big enough to allow every Martial Art to have a chance to show it’s efficiency whether it is a a distance attack or short range. The benefits of the cage are numerous but i’m sure you are familiar with much less restarts, and besides MMA needs to have it’s own grounds for combat let boxing have their ring.
The only thing MMA should have a variety on is maybe an outdoor cage.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 5:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But Good Article Otherwise
Not really a Shogun fan… Yes i’ve watched his fights and just wasn’t really impressed :/ either way i hope he gives Machida a hard time and i see a good fight.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
his fights in the UFC or the ones in Pride as well?
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok ok ok you caught me…I was never a pride fan just too much damn mma back in college only had time for one org.
But the highlights i’ve seen weren’t impressive nor his time in the UFC. I know that highlights aren’t all they’re cracked up to be but when you look at a Roy Jones Jr. or Wanderlei highlight you become an instant fan…
Oh and i can’t leave out the Lyoto one with the classical music in the background…pure beauty.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s fair. I have always followed one organization at a time as well, going from UFC to Pride and back to the UFC when they bought Pride. Nowadays I still watch Japanese MMA and will watch many other US organizations when they have fighters that interests me, but I’m mostly interested in the UFC than any other organization right now. Having only seen Shogun’s fights from the UFC I can understand where your coming from :P
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although i’m a Machida fan… like I said I’d love to see him challenged. Especially with some really solid, crisp and technical Muay Thai, which is from what i hear Shogun’s specialty.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 17, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went back and watched ALL of Shogun's old PRIDE fights
because I dig him as a fighter and was going to make a highlight vid… But the more I watched Shogun in his prime, the more I was convinced that he hasn’t got anything to phase Machida. Quite the opposite, he is the perfect opponent to get clowned by Machida. He eats a lot of strikes, isn’t particularly fast or accurate, is overrated on the ground, and his most dynamic moments come from attacks that aren’t even legal in the UFC. He’s got good knees in the clinch, and decent G’N’P, but I think Machida will have no problem dealing with him.
by Grappo on Oct 17, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually Shogun's gift is his ability to
jump back and forth between different striking styles and get into a rhythm that throws the other guy off. he’ll wind up and throw some crazy spinning kick that misses just to get a guy out of rhythm and then go in for the kill in the clinch.
He’s been faster or more technical standing than most of the guys he’s fought, but against Machida he’ll be neither.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that oftentimes
when he throws a crazy kick, he ends up getting effectively countered with a punch. If Nakamura and Arona can capitalize on that, Machida will eat him alive. I hope he doesn’t try it with Lyoto, because I want the fight to last a decent amount of time.
by Grappo on Oct 18, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun actually connected with the kick in the Naku fight and the punches Arona threw did not land on Shogun, and they ended up going to the ground as a result with Shogun having a better position than Arona. He’s done this quite a few times, against Rampage as well, in the Naku and Rampage fights you could tell his opponents were like WTF? I don’t think he’d do this against Lyoto, but it’s not like it has failed him in the past.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 18, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you’re right, Arona’s punch was deflected. But, Shogun’s kick to Nakamura was blocked. It looks like Naka’s punch didn’t land cleanly either. Later Naka counters a body kick with a chest punch that nearly sends Shogun to the canvas.
In the Overeem rematch, his kicks were effectively countered a couple of times too.
I guess my main point is that kicks leave Shogun very open to being countered, and if he tries high-kicking Machida, it’s going to be lights out for him. Lyoto will be fast and accurate enough to fully capitalize on these openings. I think Shogun’s balls-out aggression and willingness to mix it up on the feet or the floor were too much for most opponents (and will still probably be too much for most current opponents) but Machida don’t play dat.
by Grappo on Oct 18, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn’t his first kick to Nakamura though was it? Wasn’t it in the middle of the fight? Shogun is not the best striker out there, he’s got great striking, but is far from being the best. He is however a great gamer and will change the pace when he’s in trouble. He was getting killed by Diabate and took him straight to the ground. Machida doesn’t really have a one punch KO power IMO, so if things aren’t going Shogun’s way I’m sure he’ll change his pace, he’s got a lot of tools in his arsenal.
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 19, 2009 4:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun does have a lot of tools. They are called his fans. ;) jk, I’m a big Shogun fan. Actually I’m not sure that invalidates what i just said. :(
Anyways, MACHIDA WILL DESTROY!!!
by Grappo on Oct 20, 2009 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Shogun doesn’t seem nearly as imposing without the down kicks and stomps, but one thing I’ll give him is unpredictability. If he gives Machida a lot of trouble, I think it’ll be because he attacks from weird angles and has a lot of lateral movement. Think a faster, more acrobatic Jardine. The flaw is that he leaves himself open a lot with this style, and gives up his base throwing wide kicks and punches. His “kyo” is rather substantial unless he’s just flowing perfectly, and I have no doubt that Lyoto will capitalize on that, intercepting him often in furious fashion. Lyoto is just much faster in terms of accleration. Maybe Shogun can get somewhere in the clinch, but I’ll have to see it happen to believe it. I kinda think that in close quarters, Lyoto will be able to throw Shogun around pretty easily. It’s just a question, to me anyway, of whether Shogun can land that one shot to rock Machida and temporarily take him out of his focus, then capitalize. Another possibility is for Shogun to play a bit of possum when he gets dropped, and entice Machida into a ground war, and see if Shogun can submit him, or at least get a reversal and land some shots. Shogun needs to make this a sloppy, scrambling fight in some way in order to win.
I’ve seen most of Shogun’s Pride run, and while I think Machida will handle him within three rounds, I’m hoping Shogun looks good, and doesn’t just get flat embarrassed. The LHW division needs Shogun to be very good, if not great. Otherwise it starts to look flat, as Jardine and Forrest are sliding, T. Silva and Rashad lost decisively to Machida recently, and I can’t see Cane being a threat to Lyoto anytime soon. Maybe Rogerio would fight Machida, but I doubt it, as they’re friends.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling
it will be embarrassing. Not a Silva/Forrest level of clownage, but Machida/Evans/Silva level is not out of the question. And I’m a big Shogun fan.
by Grappo on Oct 18, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I must agree
I’m a huge Lyoto fan, but I’ve always been a fan of Shogun as well, and I’m hoping he as least takes it into the later rounds. But it might be ugly and quick…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Oct 18, 2009 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Semi OT but, re: Japan’s obscenity laws
Like lots of other socially conservative laws (the ones harshly prohibiting drugs for example) were actually instituted by the American government of occupation after the war—this was the late 40’s / early 50’s, a relatively conservative time in the States, and lots of laws reflect that (an incredible amount of stuff that’s legal in this country now wasn’t 60 years ago).
The thing is that Japanese society is generally resistant shaking things up, so once any rule or institution is in place, there’s a great deal of inertia preventing it from getting changed.
True fact.
by WanderleiNoooooo! on Oct 17, 2009 6:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting
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by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was saying this shit YEARS ago when he 1st came back to the UFC.....
If I get really bored I’ll go look up the old post on Sherdog where I said just that.
by Dexerion on Oct 17, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Big picture: MMA needs simplicty
Someone might have said this as I haven’t read every post above, but what MMA needs more than anything else is growth. I know for some of the hardcores here the nuance and complexity might delight us, but what MMA needs to get better athletes and better pay for the current athletes (no more bouncing to films).
As is most casual fans don’t understand the MMA rules. We don’t need another set of rules to confuse casuals. Furthermore the cage somewhat encourages stand up and also prevents stoppages which are also both good for causals. The perceived danger/unsportsmanship of a stomp/soccer kick to the head of a downed opponent won’t help any either.
I know the above argument is a bit of slippery slope, because I don’t want a bunch of rules to just encourage slug fests
by SES 84 on Oct 17, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Blah blah blah
That’s what the whole article is. Shogun will never be in position to soccer kick Machida. He’ll never find him, 50-50 he hits Machida less than 5 times.
by Razz on Oct 17, 2009 7:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SHOGUN WILL SLAY THE DRAGON!!!
SHOGUN TO BE THE NEW LHW CHAMP!!!
by orcus on Oct 17, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
at first I thought that gif was ridiculous
then I realized I still did…and cracked up.
by slapjaw ackrite on Oct 18, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would the UFC rules
affect Fedor too? When fighting for Affliction there was no use of elbows to downed opponent, correct? I think some fighters need certain style (soccer kicks, stomps, ring vs cage) to succeed. Shogun might just be a victim of this as well. Rings with kicks and stomps is not the same as a cage without.
by Riney on Oct 18, 2009 3:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fedor appears to be very wary of elbows on the ground
and with good reason as he cuts very easily.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 18, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there was one point in the fedor/ mark hunt fight where hunt basically rested his forearm on fedor’s forehead and i was thinking, “damn, hunt could be smashing some elbows right now”. of course fedor knew that he didn’t have to worry about elbows in that fight, so that’s was why he allowed it. fedor has that move where he sneaks both hands down and pulls of an armbar out of nowwhere (like the coleman fight). elbows would be a factor in fedor going for and pulling off this move. not saying that fedor couldn’t adapt to elbow’s, ( i think he would be very dangerous with them in his arsenal) but so far, he hasn’t had too.
by bdw on Oct 18, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were elbows on the ground illegal in Affliction? Anyone know?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 18, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes they were illegal.
I have pointed this out when Fedor turned down the UFC deal. I personally think the elbows on the ground is his weakness, he doesnt have to defend them in Strikeforce either.
by Riney on Oct 18, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
i think he saw what they did to mirko as well (still his toughest foe). even though g.g.ended it with a headkick, the elbows are what set up the kill ing blow. i felt the same way when fedor turned down the ufc years ago, before adrenaline and the hmc fight. i don’t think he fears any man, but is very anti-elbows.
by bdw on Oct 18, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun without his signature soccer kicks and foot head stomps is surely a handicap for Shogun. At least he still has his spinning Capoeira kicks.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 18, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SHOGUN WILL PREVAIL
As he did to Liddell and elusive punch to the face then some hammer fist…
He will finish the drag with his unorthodox punchs and kicks…
WAR SHOGUN!!!
N1SHOGUNRUAFAN
by N1SHOGUNRUAFAN on Oct 18, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the elbows were illegal in Japan not only because of the risk for blood, but also to hinder wrestlers.
by slapjaw ackrite on Oct 18, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am not sure the rules or fighting surface have anything to do with Shogun’s change in focus. He lost a lot of athleticism with his knee problems and it showed. He used to not only stomp guys on the floor but also jump inside the guy’s guard and punch them in the face, he didn’t do any of that in his recent run. A lot of his game was based off aggression and hi incredible balance throwing kicks, stomps and punches in scrambles and in the guard (I have a suspicion that a lot of his balance off kicks came from his Capoeira background) and he just lost a lot of that. Assuming he is healthy, it is entirely possible that he could take Machida down (unlikely) and be able to jump in and out of the guard and punch him to oblivion.
What I would personally like to see is Machida on his butt and with Shogun hammering Sakuraba leg kicks to tenderize Machida’s attack. Not sure Shogun can accomplish that but it could be a good game plan. Of course that would involve not getting knocked out or swept by Machida, which is an entirely different ballgame…
by blawa on Oct 19, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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