Note to Dan Henderson: Dana White Is Done Playing With You
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:30 PM EDT
in News
227 comments
Micheal David Smith gets the quote from Henderson's people:
Responding to a Yahoo Sports report that Henderson is "on the verge of signing" with Strikeforce, Henderson's friend and business partner Aaron Crecy said that wasn't the case, and that no signing with anyone is imminent.
"We had a brief get-to-know-you session with (Strikeforce) and met them for coffee, but to say he's close to signing would be a gross misrepresentation," Crecy said.
When reached by FanHouse, Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker said, "We've had dialogue with Dan but that's all I'd like to say."
Here's my take. Negotiations between the UFC and Dan Henderson have been at a standstill for weeks. Ever since Henderson's large dollar demands scotched a rematch with Rich Franklin at UFC 103. If you believe Dana's story about poor fan response being the #1 factor, I envy your innocence:
In late July, Henderson said he was asked to rematch Rich Franklin at UFC 103 on Sept. 19 in Dallas, as the promotion was in need of a last-minute main bout to go head-to-head with a Mayweather-Marquez boxing card on the same night. Henderson agreed and was presented a new multi-fight contract a few days later, which he then passed on.
Fast forward a couple of months later. No one's getting anywhere in the negotiations. So Dana White goes to his personal stenographer favorite reporter Kevin Iole on a Friday afternoon and cries some crocodile tears about Strikeforce stealing Dan Henderson away from the UFC.
The timing of this is important. In PR it's traditional to put out a story you want to bury on a Friday afternoon when fewer people are paying attention. By picking a Friday evening of a one of the deadest MMA weekends of the year, Dana is doing his best to get his message out without making this a major story.
Iole made one telling update after my colleague Michael Fagan posted about the story:
Henderson could not be reached for comment Friday, but White confirmed he was unable to come to terms with Henderson. White indicated the company’s contractual right of first refusal had expired and they would not seek to match contract offers Henderson may receive. Strikeforce CEO Scott Coker did not return phone calls.
Now we're got Henderson's camp hurrying to deny that they are even in serious talks with Strikeforce. As much as I think the UFC should pay Dan Henderson what he's worth and then some out of respect for his contributions to the sport, the reality is that Henderson just got pwned by Dana White.
I'm no fan of the way Dana White negotiates with fighters. I think he personalizes things, plays favorites, talks out of turn, holds vendettas, is manipulative and generally bullies everyone he can. But I also have a great deal of respect for just how well he plays the game. Only Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, Anderson Silva and Fedor Emelianenko could really be said to get away with jacking with Dana White and not even those super-stars at the top of the game can be said to be getting over on Dana.
The jury is still out on Dana's feud with Rampage Jackson. If Jackson's movie career is a huge success, Quinton just might have had the last laugh.
If Dan Henderson isn't careful he'll end up in the like Tim Sylvia, Andrei Arlovski, Ken Shamrock, and Matt Lindland -- or if he's lucky, like Frank Trigg, begging for one more shot with the UFC and then taking the whipping boy treatment and happy to be getting it.
Hendo's not going to get the kind of guaranteed pay day he wants from the UFC and I doubt Strikeforce will want to pay him half a million dollars guaranteed either. He's got some value to Strikeforce as someone who could headline a Showtime against the winner of Mayhem Miller/Jake Shields or maybe against Gegard Mousasi. Maybe he could even fight Frank Shamrock or Cung Le in a match that would be booked for its promotional rather than competitive value. But I don't see that being worth $500,000 up front guaranteed to Strikeforce.
If Dan Henderson wants to start a bidding war for his services, Dana White has given notice that he won't be one of the competitors.
0 recs |
227 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
No one’s getting anywhere in the negotiations. So Dana White goes to hispersonal stenographerfavorite reporter Kevin Iole on a Friday afternoon and cries some crocodile tears about Strikeforce stealing Dan Henderson away from the UFC.
I’m sorry Nate, I must have missed the part where Dana was crying about losing Henderson or said SF stole him, could you point it out to me?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
crocodile tears
is a figure of speech meaning he’s not actually sad.
It’s more a response to the way the story was taken than the actual story itself.
Also note that Iole says “the former two-division PRIDE champion appears on the verge of signing a deal with the rival Strikeforce promotion” when there was no source other than Dana White cited and that claim turns out to have been bullshit denied by both the Henderson camp and Strikeforce.
Don’t you remember the way Iole carried Dana’s water during the Affliction collapse? This is another instance of Iole being Dana’s court reporter.
It’s also funny that you’re reflexively defending Dana in a post where I’m saying Dana is chumping somebody. I’m on your side here, Dana is winning, work with me.
lol
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just seems like you’re never happy with Dana no matter what he does. When he does stuff like what he did with Fedor or Rampage badmouthing them to the media and whatnot you bash him for it, however if he keeps the negotiations in house and has nothing but good things to say about a guy like with Hendo you still have to get your potshots in on him. There’s just as much of a chance that Iole made up the stuff about Hendo signing with SF as there is of Dana actually telling him that.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dana's the big dog in the sport
there are plenty of people who are happy to kiss his ass, I think it serves a purpose if someone applies a critical analysis to his actions.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a big difference between being critical and taking potshots when none are warranted. What exactly has he done wrong in these negotiations that you feel the need to say he has been crying or that he said SF stole Hendo from them?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say he's been crying
crocodile tears means HE’S NOT CRYING. It’s a figure of speech.
Sometimes I feel like you are to me as I am to Dana White.
lol
I take potshots.
You nitpick.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you’re certainly filling in the blanks with speculation are you not. You’re summizing a lot of things without knowing the facts. It sounds plausible to me, but this isn’t something you know for fact now is it? Or is it?
by Dooda on Oct 17, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course I'm speculating
I’m talking about people’s motivations, that’s speculation by definition.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course I'm speculating!
that’s what I do.
When I’m talking about the subjective psychological states and motivations of individuals I’m speculating by defnition.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course I'm dour
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 10:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It just looks like you’re trying to pass your speculation for proven fact.
by Dooda on Oct 17, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nate, why you keep coming at Iole for being Dana’s mouthpiece. He does not always come off that Iole called out Dana a not too long ago for being a hypocrite, signing Kimbo to a contract, he has not earned
by The Bronzeville Bully on Oct 16, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But how can you justify
losing arguably the #2 lhw in the world and then again arguably the #2 mw in the world less than a month later?
I’m not saying the UFC needs to go all Affliction on us and pay fighters more than they’re worth but losing arguably the #2 fighter in two divisions in less than a month isnt good for business.
Now someone will argue Rampage and Hendo are not huge draws and I’m not gonna debate that with you but you also cant base everything around who draws the most and not who are the best fighters because then your going WWE style.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 16, 2009 10:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Rampage thing was a disaster
I didn’t say that it was a good thing to lose Rampage. In fact I said:
The jury is still out on Dana’s feud with Rampage Jackson. If Jackson’s movie career is a huge success, Quinton just might have had the last laugh.
I also am on the record saying that the UFC should pay Dan what he wants. I think its the right thing to do and smart business. But the reality is, in the short term, Dana’s holding all the cards and Dan doesn’t have much leverage at all.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I’m wondering what Hendo wants and if he cant get it from the UFC then can he get it from a Strikeforce or Dream.
The interesting thing becomes guarenteed money. I think the UFC is probably offering him the most money he can make if he wins but he probably wants either all or most of it guarenteed with only a small to win bonus.
So now can Strikeforce or Dream offer him more guarenteed money because I think that is all it would take.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, hendo fighting almost anyone in those organizations is pretty much a guaranteed win with a bonus, save for maybe mousasi, or a fluke.
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dana just sent the message that Strikeforce won't need to
match Dan’s asking price because there won’t be anyone bidding against them. Strikeforce can have Dan for as little as they want to pay him.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about the rest of the speculation
But that positively reeks of leveraging. Dana drives a hard bargain.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s probably getting fed up that these negotiations are taking so long and I don’t blame him. I’d say “Here’s your final offer Dan, shit or get off the pot”.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don’t blame him either. I’m not as bothered by his behavior as some people are. It’s a privately held, remarkably successful company that is responsible for the current explosive growth of our sport. As long as he’s not drowning puppies or using racial epithets, I tend to sit back and watch..
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MMA i like any other sport you don’t give huge long contracts to aging superstars especialy if that fighter is not all that great at putting asses in seats. .
by Shocbomb on Oct 17, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please Just take Dream out of the conversation. I might be wrong but I just don’t see no way FEG will fork over the type of loot Hendo wants. Even in pride Hendo was not the biggest Draw. Sure he has fans in Japan but its not like has the following of say a fighter like Gomi.
by Shocbomb on Oct 17, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re separate things, so it’s very easy to justify both of them (even though they haven’t actually lost anyone, yet).
Rampage left because he doesn’t want to be a fighter anymore. Dan was asking for too much money, and now he’s going to be fighting lesser fighters for less money. Those statements aren’t 100% accurate representations of the situations, but it’s a very easy way for Zuffa to spin each one.
by Phildo on Oct 16, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I think the UFC should pay Dan Henderson what he’s worth and then some out of respect for his contributions to the sport, the reality is that Henderson just got pwned by Dana White.
???
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 16, 2009 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
how about:
dissed
bitchslapped
punked
chumped
snubbed
slighted
disparaged
insulted
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
all better than pwned (except disparaged)
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, everyone being a bit harsh on Nate here. Semantics.
UFC wouldn’t be in the financial position they are if they paid guys based on respect rather than financial return to the company.
I also don’t blame Dan for this little bit of posturing either. Dan is older and this is likely to be a retirement contract. Dana doesn’t want to overpay, but I guarantee he doesn’t want to lose big name talent to Strikeforce. He has just spent recent months signing far less skilled fighters (think Phil Baroni), presumably just to keep them from Strikeforce.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Oct 17, 2009 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why thank you
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 17, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHile all those words are better for an English teacher
pwned is MUCH funnier.
"That feeling after you win and they raise your hand... it's like you have this energy that releases from your body, and it's like you mingle with the cosmos, and you feel omnipotent"
by woomikee on Oct 17, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t tell me you’ve never heard that term before Supremacy.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dana just sent a great big
“Message: I don’t care.” to Dan Henderson.
Dan wanted to stay in the UFC, first he wanted to fight for the title, then he backed down off that and said he was happy to fight Nate Marquardt in a #1 contender’s match.
But he was holding firm on his financial demands.
We’ll see if Strikeforce pays him what he was trying to get from the UFC because Dana White just send a message that Dan can be had for a deep deep discount from his asking price.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not familiar?
In online gaming lingo, to dominate someone was to “own” them. Rapid typing often mistyped it as “pwn” (pronounced “pown”).
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I am familiar with the term, but he is just using leverage (Strikeforce/DREAM) to increase his value. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing has been signed either way, so, I would say no one has been pwned yet. We are now where we were 2-3 months ago, except we learned that Hendo will be attending the CBS show live, compliments of Strikeforce and CBS.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 16, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We also learned that Hendo isn’t getting the huge raise that he seems to think he is entitled to.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet…again, nothing has been signed.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 16, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said earlier, if Dan was getting that huge raise it would have happened by now. If he signs with SF it will not be for a penny more than what he could get in the UFC.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its all part of negotiation tactics. Nothing is set on stone until both parties sign.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 16, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
And when Hendo finally does sign something it won’t be for as much money as he was hoping.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You always ask for more than what you wan, and settle on something around your ballpark. Like I said, only Hendo and his management know how much they think Hendo is worth.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 16, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Obviously I feel my value has gone up enough to warrant what I’ve asked for I don’t think I’m being greedy by any means,” said Henderson. “There’s a lot of numbers being thrown around out there and I feel I should be paid what I ask for.”
Sounds to me like he has set a price and isn’t willing to move, which would explain the last 3 months of negotiations.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hendo is attending the CBS show live
to corner Sokodjou. This has been planned since the signed the Sokodjou-Mosasi fight was announced. If Dan resigned with the UFC tommorow he would still be at the CBS Strikeforce/M-1 Global Show.
It’s a lot like Affliction:Banned having Couture there, sure do they probably want to talk business? Yes but Couture was gonna be there regardless same with Hendo.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 16, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with your ???
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hendo did not get pwned, hes just been around long enough to know danas gonna try and give him the short end of the stick, and is just trying to get paid what he deserves, and probably will get.
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Whatever it is that Hendo thinks he is worth he is most certainly NOT getting that amount. If he was it would have happened by now.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think he just thought he could get it out of dana, though it seems he thought he was more important to the ufc than dana did. strikeforce probably offered him enough, he just wanted the money and status.
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
“I’m no fan of the way Dana White negotiates with fighters. I think he personalizes things, plays favorites, talks out of turn, hold vendettas and generally bullies everyone he can. But I also have a great deal of respect for just how well he plays the game. Only Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, Anderson Silva and Fedor Emelianenko could really be said to get away with jacking with Dana White and not even those super-stars at the top of the game can be said to be getting over on Dana.”
Agreed, Dana White’s way of doing business with emotion is a liability for the promotion long term. Dan Henderson is not the biggest star in the UFC, but he still has more legitimate wins then the over paid Mirko Cro Cop. The UFC made sure they “Got their man” when it came to Mirko, because he sells pay-per-views overseas for their U.K and international cards.
I think the UFC is missing out on a big opportunity by not re-signing Dan Henderson, especially coming off of his Knockout win over Michael Bisping at UFC 100. That win alone may have given Henderson more recognition with casual fans of the sport who did not like the arrogant U.K fighter then any of his previous fights. Add in the fact that Henderson also is coming off of The Ultimate Fighter where fans became familiar with him and the UFC may be overlooking those factors in future pay-per-view sales.
Remember no one knew who Gabriel Gonzaga was, but one high kick changed that really fast.
Something clever goes here....
by Narcisist on Oct 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Remember no one knew who Gabriel Gonzaga was, but one high kick changed that really fast.
Yeah, and look at all the cards he’s been headlining lately.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember he actually headlined a card soon after, how many has Mirko headlined as the main attraction since then?
Something clever goes here....
by Narcisist on Oct 16, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy headlined that card
Gonzaga just happened to be the sacrificial lamb.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean by “sacrificial lamb”?
by Jahbulon on Oct 16, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize at the time a lot of people thought Gonzaga would win but Sylvia was a big favorite too and they both got their asses kicked.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and it was totally awesome! Oh Randy, if you had just never gone on your quest to fight Fedor.
by Razzel on Oct 16, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don’t you mean his quest for money respect
by Phildo on Oct 16, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Narcisist?
You do know that it`s spelled “Narcissist”? Aaaah… The irony of it all!
"Marcus Davis is a plastic paddy"-Dan Hardy
by BlueberryMuffin on Oct 17, 2009 5:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hermes Franca should spend more time in the gym and less time at the hair dresser.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
???
where’d that come from?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Sorry, the Edgar-Franca fight is on Spike right now.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
franca should be let go, showing up for a ufc event fat ,sloppy, and overweight is disgusting. plus his hair angers me to the very core of my soul.
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he did get let go
at least that’s the rumor.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Oct 16, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he’s not on the website.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, i feel stupid and satisfied at the same time.
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, I mean how is it possible for a lightweight to look out of shape?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its just a lack of respect, or an homage to b.j. penn.
by masteroftheflyingguillotine on Oct 16, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dang, could your Dana-hate be any more obvious? That article was full of spin.
by Razzel on Oct 16, 2009 11:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, rational analysis
UFC and Dana negotiated with Team Hendo for 3 months. Dana decided Dan wasn’t going to come off his number, and he also figured (probably correctly) Strikeforce wasn’t going to reach Dan’s number, either, and they weren’t going to reach UFC’s number.
So, he tells Dan good luck, and lets Dan discover on his own that his market value isn’t what he thought it was. And that Dana will not help Dan’s leverage to inflate the Strikeforce number by competing in negotiations.
Team Hendo will discover the Strikeforce number is even lower than the UFC number, and will come back to Dana asking for the UFC’s last offer. If Dana wants to play nice, he’ll give the same offer that Team Hendo originally rejected. If not, Dan Henderson will find out that in capitalism, the price of a service truly if what the seller and the buyer agree upon, and not a dollar more, and will end up signing a contract that’s lower than what UFC originally offered.
Is that all speculation? Sure. But it’s speculation based on an analysis of past events. Kid Nate’s main point, as I see it, is Dana has left the UFC in a pretty good negotiating stance should Team Hendo come back to them, and weakened Dan’s position against Strikeforce’s position by refusing to engage in a bidding war. When all’s said and done, UFC will most likely get Dan back, and at its price, not Dan’s.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hendo aint goin anywhere
Hendo is too big of a name and too hot right now to be let go. It wil soon be obvious (if it isn’t already) that Strikeforce cant pay him as much as Zuffa. If SF does offer him close to what Dana is then he will have to sweeten the offer. If Zuffa is concerned about Tito and Coleman fighting for other promotions they have to be concerned about Hendo. Hendo and Dana don’t seem to be in a big rush to come to an agreement but it is almost inevitable that they will. I’ll be flabergasted if Dana lets someone outbid him for a top tier name like Hendo. From a fan perspective I can understand the dissapointment about the lack of eagerness to give Hendo what he wants but it’s just business as usual.
by naturalist on Oct 16, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Zuffa is concerned about Tito and Coleman fighting for other promotions they have to be concerned about Hendo.
Coleman?
Anyways, Tito is 10x the draw that Hendo is, Dana was a helluva lot more worried about Tito going elsewhere than he is about Dan.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 16, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What he got against Bisping, I doubt Strikeforce will come close to that
by The Bronzeville Bully on Oct 16, 2009 11:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Henderson was reached for comment on Friday
Henderson on Friday laughed at news he’s been shown the door by the UFC.
"I’m still hoping to come to terms with the UFC, until I heard this," he said. "And I will be exploring other options for sure, but I definitely need to make sure I get paid."
Next week, Henderson plans to hunt in New Mexico and Utah and assess the situation when he returns. He remains firm on his terms for a deal with the UFC.
"UFC’s got a business to run and I’m not doing charity work with this," he said. "I don’t believe that I’m asking for too much money, and I know for a fact that I’m taking less money than other fighters."
by Scott Haber on Oct 16, 2009 11:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Charity?
Some of these guys need to look at earnings reports.. There are kids drawing 6-8k and he just drew a cool 250k in his last fight. Shit man..
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He only got 100k to show, 50k less than Bisping. The 150 he got for his performance has nothing to do with his contract.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who gives a shit?
He make 250k, bottom line.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The dispute has nothing to do with performance based bonuses, it’s over guaranteed money. Your figure is irrelevant.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is it irrelevant? He’s complaining about how he’s not fighting for charity when he just pocketed a quarter million less than 4 months ago.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
He’s 39 and getting nothing but tough fights, bonuses aren’t a sure thing. To maximize how much he makes in his last fights it makes sense to focus on how much he gets paid when he loses.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s gonna be making 6 figures either way, that’s far from charity.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 3:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
And how much does Dana and the Fertillas make? It’s a business.
by nottheface on Oct 17, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they made the decision to pinch pennies and give up one of their best middleweights. Whether the short term gain was worth a long term loss is impossible to ascertain without the actual numbers. It may be that a couple more years of an expensive Hendo wasn’t worthwhile for them, no way to know.
It does screw up the MW contention issue though.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chill out he hasn’t gone anywhere yet.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure how you read emotion in my post. I don’t mind Dan leaving the UFC.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just saying don’t jump to conclusions that he’s leaving when SF hasn’t even offered him a contract.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough, it could just be hardball tactics. I don’t think Hendo can afford to wait too long for another contract though.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely hardball. And you’re right about Dan probably not wanting to wait too long, time is on Dana’s side as Dan isn’t getting any younger. Hendo is gonna have to realize that all the leverage is on Zuffa’s side and be happy with his 20% raise.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Right, it's a business
My point exactly.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, obviously. This discussion is about whether it’s good business. Just because the UFC are being shrewd and Dana White’s acting like a hard ass doesn’t mean they’re making the right decision.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also doesn’t mean they’re making the wrong decision.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I never said it did. It all depends on the numbers, most of which we don’t have access to.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think it’s pretty obvious that Dan is looking for a BIG raise (someone said he wanted a seven figure signing bonus) and his name just isn’t worth that much.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 3:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Too me, both Hendo and Dana look bad in this situation. They should have come to some sort of reasonable conclusion to the contract situation.
FIRE BRUCE BOCHY NOW!!!!!!
AND TAKE BRIAN SABEAN WITH HIM!!!!!
by 49er16 on Oct 16, 2009 11:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, to me, neither of them look bad.
Besides, it’s not like he has already signed with someone else.
by David_ on Oct 17, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed - businessmen being businessmen
Dana is negotiating in good faith and using good strategy. Dan is negotiating in good faith and using what leverage he has. Neither has accused the other of illegal or unethical behavior, and there’s been no real trash talk. The two sides just can’t agree on a number. Doesn’t mean either side’s wrong, just mean they see the situation differently. Eventually, a number will be agreed upon, and the contract will be signed. I’d say given the situation, this has been pretty drama-free.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it is really refreshing how civil the talks have been. This is how things should be done, because it provides a climate where the best possible outcome has its highest probability.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It reminds me of the Arlovski talks. Both Dana & Andrei kept things very civil, even after Andrei signed with Affliction. Of course, Coker is a little more prudent with his pursestrings than T-shirt guy was, so Dan probably won’t get the same kind of crazy offer that Andrei was given.
by Steve4192 on Oct 17, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably, if Coker is still running things at Strikeforce. Who knows what Showtime/CBS want to do.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kid, why are you listing AA as one of your cautionary tales. He went from making $475,000 in his last three UFC fights to making $2.75 in his next three fights with Affliction and Elite XC. What the hell did he do wrong?
by nottheface on Oct 16, 2009 11:57 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
His value is just about gone.
3 big paydays doesnt equal what he could have earned in the UFC over the next several years.
by Riney on Oct 17, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t his value gone because he lost the fights?
by David_ on Oct 17, 2009 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He made $3.25 mil over 4 fights with Affliction and the Elite XC. He was being offered something like $400,000 from the UFC (their supposed max at the time with no ppv cut). Even if we say he gets $400,000 win or lose, he would have to fight twice as often to equal what he made now. Actually, because a dollar made today appreciates in value, a dollar tomorrow is not as valuable, he would have to fight 9 or 10 times over a 3 to 4 year span to equal what he made this last year.
You are asking a fighter to take a big risk to fight to turn down a lot more money on the idea that he may make more money in the long run. Especially when:
- he could get injured (it is a violent sport)
- he could lose and either be cut or have his next contract negotiated lower. (Do you think the UFC would be paying him a ton if he just had back to back KOs from Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin?)
AA career may be in the dumps now, but I think he made the right decision.
by nottheface on Oct 17, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arlovski definitely made a good decision. There’s just as much chance that he woulda lost in the UFC and he wouldn’t have made half as much doing it.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I cant say it
was a bad decision but I believe the UFC could have fed him a safe opponent or 2 after several losses. If AA plans are to retire soon then yes it was a great decision. If it is to fight forever like Couture then it wasnt.
by Riney on Oct 18, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you fail to take into account the locker room bonuses UFC fighters receive. A lot of fighters earn bonus money beyond what is reported as the purses and fight of the night bonuses. It is hard to compare how much affliction fighters made over what they did in the UFC.
by Dropkick434 on Oct 17, 2009 4:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But even Dana has admitted that Affliction offered Andrei WAY more than he did. That’s why they parted on such good terms. Dana realized that Affliction made an absolutely ludicrous offer and Andrei would have been a fool to turn it down.
by Steve4192 on Oct 17, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he made $2.75
I can see how it’s a cautionary tale.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know. I have to work like 10 mins for that without Fedor punching me in the face.
by David_ on Oct 17, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume the reason the signed Coleman is that they don’t want him fighting anywhere else. Why do you think they are paying him ? Fine, Tito WAS a bigger draw than Hendo but he was practically begging to get signed by Affliction and SF but they didn’t want to pay his sorry ass what he thinks he’s worth. If dana was so worried about it he wouldn’t have left him available for so long. Anyway, Hendo is a big name, has a compelling lifestory and can be easily marketed by a network. Dana knows that would be a huge gift to SF and he’s not ready to let them keep acquiring top tier talent. But he still wont pay Hendo want he’s asking.
by naturalist on Oct 17, 2009 12:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure Coleman was signed as a charity case.
Dana and the Fajitas are businessmen, but they are also fanboys. They saw an opportunity to give a down-on-his-luck legend one last run in the spotlight. Coleman doesn’t cost them that much and gives them a great human interest story if he can manage to scratch his way into contention.
by Steve4192 on Oct 17, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fajitas, lol
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I think Henderson knows he doesn’t have many fights left in his career he just wants to get paid as much as he can while he can still be a competitive fighter
by IRodC on Oct 17, 2009 12:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And there's not a thing wrong with that
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man… If I had as poor job performance as Dana White I’m pretty sure I’d get fired. I mean, he’s just a dunce. He’s so determined that Strikeforce isn’t competition that he’s just going to keep letting them siphon of talent until they BECOME competition. SF is one or two more big names from being the competition that Dana says they aren’t.
by Limelight on Oct 17, 2009 12:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Man… If I had as poor job performance as Dana White I’m pretty sure I’d get fired. I mean, he’s just a dunce.
You don’t really believe that, do you?
by Jahbulon on Oct 17, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah becuase increasing your business net value by 2000% if awful.
by Riney on Oct 17, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The worst
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This comment is hilarious.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He’s so determined that Strikeforce isn’t competition that he’s just going to keep letting them siphon of talent until they BECOME competition.
OK, I’ll play along. Who has SF taken from the UFC?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too funny. I want to smoke what you’ve been smoking.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 17, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you just said something really stupid.
by Razzel on Oct 17, 2009 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 13 recs
Good to see the internet bullies are out in full effect.
by TLAoutlaw on Oct 17, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well when you say something smartass like “Did I stutter?” that’s what you’re gonna get back.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 10:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
Names do not make a business successful, making money is how a business is successful. Nobody even comes close to the UFC in that manner.
Also please hit reply.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Way to elaborate on your brilliant hypothesis.
by Dropkick434 on Oct 17, 2009 4:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish you did.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Oct 17, 2009 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t normally agree with Kid Nate but on this point he’s correct, Dan has found out the hard way just how little he means to the UFC in the big picture.
Dan has pretty much priced himself out of a job because he’s been listening to his agents and not looking out for what’s best for his longterm career.
The big winner in all of this is Nate Marquardt, now that Hendo is out of the way as a top MW contender he’ll move into his spot. That means a bigger payday and bigger exposure everything that Dan wants will go to him and Dan well he’s going to have to settle for less money and less fame in SF good luck Hendo.
by Raker on Oct 17, 2009 2:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Kid Nate
Thats why Kid Nate is my favorite mma writer, he is one of the few (at least that i know of) that has the balls to criticize Dana for the non-ethical way he conducts his bussiness.
I hate when i see mma fans take the crackhead instance, as long as Dana give me good fights he can do whatever the hell he wants to the fighters.
Thanks Nate i more than agree with you.
by bigcherry on Oct 17, 2009 2:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Unethical?
Maybe I’m missing something, but what exactly was done unethically in this instance?
by superap on Oct 17, 2009 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unethical has become shorthand for non-altruistic.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
by Dodectagon on Oct 17, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Agree" is a definite
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 17, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lost in all this seems to be the fact that Hendo deserves the pay. Will he get what he wants? Obviously not, but can we fault the man who asks for his worth?
And don’t gimme no bullshit about being a ‘draw’
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 2:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How do you know that Hendo deserves the pay? Do you know what he asked, and what he was offered?
by Michaelthebox on Oct 17, 2009 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m being highly subjective here, so facts hold little credence in my assertion haha. My intuition suggests he’s smart enough not to ask for a Brock Lesnar contract, but also believes his value hovers somewhere around say, oh, Big Nog’s value.
Both Nog and Henderson’s absolute best days are behind them and their legacies are set, but they are still getting big victories. In Henderson’s case, he has one of the most famous KO’s in the sport’s history (Bisping) and was in a war with Rampage on a highly rated national broadcast. It’s not like Luis Cane asking for $350k base pay here…
My colors are showing here, I’ll admit—I have a soft spot for the fighters who have given their seven pounds in the ring/octagon and want a “golden parachute” once they hang up the gloves.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan is only “worth” what someone is willing to pay him, not a penny more.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Never accepted this sentiment, and won't here either.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then you don’t get how negotiations or salaries work.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s busted logic. If you make a piece of candy that—after time, energy and funds—you price at $1 to break even and I decide to pay you 75 cents, well, that has no bearing on the worth of the candy. My arbitrary decisions exist outside the realm of utility/worth. You’re essentially stating no one in the entire world is overpaid or underpaid, but instead everyone is paid exactly what they are worth. By ufc4’s and your logic, the CEO making $65 million/year while his company is in the red is paid as fairly as the Mexican immigrant making $2/hour mowing the CEO’s yard.
Saying “Dan is only ‘worth’ what someone is willing to pay him” is false in the premise of the statement, not because of this particular situation.
I understand negotiations thoroughly—I’ve sold crops with my grandfather as far back as I can remember.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If no one is willing to pay you more than 1 dollar for the candy, it’s your fault for spending too much to make it.
Just like a shit ton of condos and houses that were built in the last few years when everything was hunkydory in the real world.
It doesn’t’ matter how much you spent to make the thing or how much you think your time is worth, if no one is willing or able to pay that amount, it is not worth that amount.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It doesn’t matter how much you spent to make the thing or how much you think your time is worth, if no one is willing or able to pay that amount, it is not worth that amount.
Yes, it is. Judgement of value on the part of the purchaser has no relationship with worth. If someone pays me less than a dollar, I’m being underpaid. If someone pays me more than a dollar, I’m being overpaid. Essentially every profit ever turned is an overpayment.
Reference John Stuart Mill for further enlightenment.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we aren’t talking about 1 person paying you more than 1 dollar or 1 person paying you less.
If no one in the universe will pay you 1 dollar for your candy bar, your candy bar is not worth 1 dollar.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said before, what one person is “willing” to do has no bearing on worth. The Intrinsic Theory of Value is almost inarguable, in my opinion.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in this theory, how exactly do you determine worth?
How is it determined that the time put in to become dan henderson is worth more than the time it took to become Dan Hardy?
There are outside variables, and what someone is willing to pay is the only thing.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, it's jolly good fun arguing philosophy on an MMA site
For a more in depth read, go to G.E. Moore’s Principia Ethica. Essentially, true worth is incalculable and worth as we posit it is just an estimation (lol, kind of makes our whole debate pointless, doesn’t it?).
That estimation, however, can be intuited and somewhat informed upon isolation of the item. Here, Hendo is an Olympian and MMA Champion who’s only losses have come at the hands of the elite, and who has beaten many of the elite in his sport. He has been in high profile matches and headlined numerous shows. Now isolate Dan Hardy, a fighter with almost as many fights against Hendo, and one loss less. His losses and wins however, are to inferior quality opponents than Henderson, and Hardy has never been in a main event or headlined a show. Because worth is so relative between things, actual value may not be easily determined but to comprehend that something is worth more than the thing next to it is fairly effortless.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the direct issue isn’t fighter quality, it’s how that skill or quality translates into PPV dollars. I doubt anyone will dispute Dan Henderson’s worth as a matter of skill, he is clearly one of the best fighters ever. Yet, he may not deserve the money because he may not draw viewership. That’s what the UFC is after. If they were after skill only, Kimbo Slice wouldn’t be getting the contract he is; whatever it is. Dana would be making a mistake signing Dan Henderson to a contract that pays him more than he can generate in PPV revenue. If Dan can’t headline a successful PPV on his own, he doesn’t deserve headliner money. This opinion is strictly from a business perspective. I actually agree with you sentimentally, I wish he could get a huge contract because of what he has done for the sport.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Oct 17, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we're on the same page here
But the public awareness and perception of Hendo has changed because of one atomic right hand on the biggest UFC card of all time against a popular villain. He ain’t gonna pull Lesnar/Couture/Liddel numbers, but I think from now on he’ll do fine. Maybe he won’t get a PPV multiplier, but a solid base pay and win bonus doesn’t seem out of the question.
Hilarious sig, btw.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was obviously an extreme example, but it’s good to see you admit that your wonderful philosophy method can’t put an exact value on something, yet somehow you know Hendo is being undervalued.
Here, in the real world, worth is determined by what someone will pay for it. That’s why a real Louis vuitton purse is worth more than the one you find in chinatown, despite each one having the same time/effort/material put into it. And that’’s the case for Hendo. It’s obvious he’s worth more than Dan Hardy, but if no one is willing to pay him the amount he has decided he is “worth” he is not worth that much.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, no need to be snide.
You’re missing the point of our dialogue. I began to refute the statement “Dan is only ‘worth’ what someone is willing to pay him” because a man’s decision does not affect worth. Worth is unto itself and nothing else, that’s all I’m trying to say.
This holds true to every situation, not just Hendo’s contract status. Dana White is not going to decide Dan Henderson’s worth because it’s not within his capacity as a man to do so. He will have a perception, Dan will have a perception, they’ll meet somewhere in the middle, but it’s probably going to miss Dan’s “worth” right on the mark either over or under.
Also, vitriol creeping into your argument is the first sign that you’re being overwhelmed.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You realize worth in this context is referring only to money, right? You seem to be holding it up as some sort of higher meaning when all we are talking about is dollars and cents. If I have a classic car that according to the book is worth $150,000 but all that anyone is willing to pay me for it is $75,000 then what is the actual worth of it? The number printed on that page or the number on the check that gets deposited into my bank account?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 10:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
…what is the actual worth of it?
$150,000. I mean, upon the best estimation of worth we can make, of course. In your scenario the amount you got paid is an underpayment.
What happens if the guy you sold it to for $75k does nothing to the car, takes it to an auction in the next state over and get’s $150,000 for it? Has it’s worth changed? No, he just found someone willing to pay up.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the second the car was sold for 150,000 it was worth 150,000 to someone.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So worth of the extra work he did finding someone willing to pay 150k is 75k.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Situation would be the same if had bought the car, waited an hour at the same auction and a guy comes up to drop 150k. The nominal value (the perception of worth to a potential buyer) has changed, whereas the real value hasn’t and never will unless the car is further modified.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whats weird about the car argument is that there is an “expert” that has nominated to produce a book value number that the majority have agreed to accept. In Dan’s instance there has never been a defined expected value.
I apologize if doesn’t make as much sense in text form as it does it my head.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Oct 17, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I feel like that last sentence describes my life
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I’m being overwhelmed, I quit, you win
Dan’s worth to the UFC is somehow worth more than anyone is willing to pay him because of some philosophy thing that doesn’t apply to the discussion at hand, but you decided to bring up anyway, congratulations, you have defeated me.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, so bitter, you! Calm down, what’s a discussion amongst friends?
It applies to the discussion at hand because the entire time I’ve been talking about the concept of worth, which is what prompted my response to ufc4’s original response to my comment. We had a nice dialogue going until you decide to get all acrimonious.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, I am super bitter.
Silly me for thinking that someone’s economic worth is what we are discussing when talking about their contract that determines how much they should be paid.
You can have your definition of worth, and we’ll continue to use ufc4’s statement, when it applies, which is now.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Here’s my thought- shouldn’t the UFC know how much Dan is “worth”? They are the single most succesful MMA promotion in the history of the sport, they should have a better understanding than anyone of a fighter’s worth. Of course it is their job to get him to
agree to the lowest contract possible but if they actually believed he was worth anywhere close to what he is proposing the deal wouldve happened by now, IMO.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 11:26 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with the gist of your argument, especially that last sentence. I just kind of forgot I’m on an MMA thread and went all “Oh shit, precept participation is 20% of my grade” and started a discussion about what “worth” is.
What I’m saying is that worth is a fixed object that no man’s opinion can determine—not Dana White, not Dan Henderson. The thing is, we can’t really see/understand true worth and thus we have negotiations, which in this case appear to be going nowhere.
And thank you for keeping calm, ufc4. Some other ppl should take lessons from you in how to have a civil discussion ;)
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“What I’m saying is that worth is a fixed object that no man’s opinion can determine—not Dana White, not Dan Henderson”
I’m confused by this “fixed object” notion, can’t a fighter’s worth fluctuate based on success, age, etc. ?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
fixed was the wrong word in every way, haha, all this shit is coming from me in a nasty hangover. What I mean is that worth is intrinsic and DW saying Hendo is “worth such and such” has absolutely no effect on Hendo’s actual worth—Hendo has a value that is real, but neither he nor DW know exactly what that is.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then his worth would change based on the perspective of the participants. Henderson’s view is his worth based on putting in time and effort into the sport of MMA, Dana’s view of his worth is how much he will earn the UFC by getting more viewers or upping the profile of the company or to deny his services to competing companies.
I think that what this discussion boils down to is choice of words; we are thinking of different things when we say worth.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Oct 17, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“I think that what this discussion boils down to is choice of words; we are thinking of different things when we say worth.”
Agreed, I think RDS is looking at it from a different perspective than the dollars that Hendo adds to Zuffa’s bottom line.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
And that’s where he’s wrong.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Oct 17, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As are Hume, Berkeley, Mill, and Moore?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, if they were so fucking smart they’d be posting in an MMA thread too. :)
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 9:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
His perceived/nominal worth would change. All these negotiations are a push/pull of perceived worth. If there were a way to exactly quantify his real worth then negotiations would be unnecessary; they’d just look at the fact of the numbers and sign a deal.
But your last statement is probably very true, hahaha.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ick
I hate Moore.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Oct 17, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You better go read some Adam Smith
A good or service is worth what a buyer and seller agree upon. Invisible hand of the marketplace? Ring a bell?
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm quite familiar with him.
But perhaps you’ve forgotten his discussion of real and nominal value? Nominal value fluctuates (this is what whatever Hendo’s contract settles on) while real value never changes, never can change.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Real value may exist in textbooks
but nominal value is what will end up in his checking account. I’m fairly certain that’s the number Dan Henerson is worried about.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd.
One of the best counters to the notion of “real” value.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Oct 17, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good discussion of the difference of the two, however
I tip my hat to your rational and informed discussion on the matter, however much we may disagree on the practcial application.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it’s really nice to be able to spar back and forth in a debate like this. Should BE readers be Congress?
You have a vailid point about what Hendo cares about, I was just expressing my general dislike of throwaway phrases like “whoever pays him decides what he’s worth” when upon examination this is illogical. And from that, we have a thread with a G.E. Moore reference…. wut?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They decide what he’s worth to them and that’s all they should be worried about.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Oct 17, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never said anything to the contrary.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's kind of how capitalism works.
Buyers and sellers agree on a price for a good or service, each side working in his or her own self-interest.
"I would approve signing a pitcher that ate kitten tacos if he won 20 games a year." -BPinOK
by duck on Oct 17, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m so glad I didn’t dispute this last night.
by Michaelthebox on Oct 17, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahahaha
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Athlete and their agents overprice themselves all the time. Just because an athlete asks for a certain amount doesn’t mean they deserve it. Shawn Marion is a great basketball player who thinks he is worth a max contract but no one is willing to pay him one. Every team would love to have Shawn Marion on their team, but not for the price he is asking even though he thinks he deserves it.
by Dropkick434 on Oct 17, 2009 5:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're first sentence is totally right, I should have mentioned that
It’s Negotiation 101.
A “max” UFC contract is probably $500k to show, plus a fat PPV bonus. Dan (I’m assuming) is smart enough to know he won’t do Chuck Liddel numbers and thus shouldn’t get Chuck Liddel-money. But what’s wrong with him asking $325k to show and $175k to win, and when they hammer out the deal it settles at $275,000 to show and $125,000 win bonus? That sounds totally reasonable to me, but see above, I readily admit my bias toward veteran fighters wanting a sick retirement contract.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your*
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meltzer said that initially the main hold-up was over Hendo wanting a seven-figure signing bonus.
by rabrown on Oct 17, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm a
big hendo fan, but man, that’s not happening
by theblade on Oct 17, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
I hadn’t heard about a seven-figure signing bonus, but that’s an absurd request. I believe w/e Hendo is asking for is probably above the mark, but he’s aiming high so the UFC offer inches upward.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And on a side note.
Man you ’ve got a smokin hot girlfriend!
by TLAoutlaw on Oct 17, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, thanks amigo. Sometimes the schlubs of the world do get lucky
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if hendo
were 30 years old and opened his mouth and talked trash as often as say, bisping, i have no doubt in my mind that the ufc and hendo would have come to terms quickly on the 500k asking price
by theblade on Oct 17, 2009 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and if he was 6’3" and 280 pounds of solid muscle with the HW belt around his waist they probably would have too, but he’s not so so what?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 10:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Dan’s boring, plain and simple. I appreciate his skill, he just knocked the hell out of Bisbing, he had a very entertaining fight with Rampage and Franklin, but my God he lacks charisma. There are just too many people who would easily pass on watching him because of this.
Do you think Brock’s would be so compelling if he had Dan’s identical personality?
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight what you saw, in the ring"
by crinow on Oct 17, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Brock had Dan's personality he would just go from being Hulk to being The Thing
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Robert Downey Sr. on Oct 17, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, what you’re saying is that if Henderson provided more value to the UFC, they’d be inclined to pay more for his services? I’m intrigued.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Oct 17, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I know is that wherever Dan goes, I will be watching him. I would love to see Hendo mop the floor with some of the scrubs over at SF.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 17, 2009 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But wouldn’t you rather see him fight the best in the world?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 10:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but their are plenty of legitimate challenges for him at SF.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 17, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gegard Mousasi, and…………….?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 11:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Baba?
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 17, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 fights does not equal “plenty of legit competition”.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Jacare, Mayhem, Shields, Diaz, Babalu, Lawler, Filho. Plenty of interesting fights for him at Strikeforce, more than he’ll take before retiring.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather see him fight Belfort, Marquardt, Silva, and maybe Franklin or some 205 guys in the UFC.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s already fought 3/4 of those guys. And he’s way too slow to hang with Machida.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has Filho actually signed with SF? Either way he’d kill every guy you listed there.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Dream and Strikeforce are close enough that they could probably summon him at will. The feud with Mouasasi makes more sense in that context anyway.
Arona’s a possibility too, since the UFC apparently aren’t interested in him.
by omigawda on Oct 17, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily. I really like seeing Hendo win.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Oct 17, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dana isn’t the only from the UFC involved in these negotiations is he? I mean surely Joe Silva and the Fertittas would be involved in these discussions if they have gotten to this point.
So why is Dana the only one getting the blame or credit in these negotiations on behalf of the UFC? Shouldn’t someone ask Joe Silva or the Fertittas what their take on the situation is and what input they had in these negotiations?
Just BE.
by mattman73 on Oct 17, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because this is something “bad” that the UFC is doing.
Whenever the UFC does something bad it’s 100% Dana’s fault. Whenever they do something good it’s 100% Fertita brothers or Joe Silva. Is this your first day on the internet?
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dana is the face of the UFC, plain and simple.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yea Dana is the face of the UFC but asking Joe Silva or the Fertittas about their involvement in the negotiations only seems like a logical step in the reporting process to me. So I was just wondering out loud if maybe someone was going to do that considering it could possibly add some more insight into the negotiations.
Just BE.
by mattman73 on Oct 17, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They are not going to say anything other than what Dana has said. Dana is the face, he speaks for them.
by Phildo on Oct 17, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus Iole has ties to Dana and that’s where this came from.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 12:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Just thought it wouldn’t hurt to try asking Joe Silva or the Fertittas to maybe get some additional information. Seemed logical to me but I guess I"m wrong. I didn’t realize in reporting that you don’t have to bother asking someone a question if you think you know what the answer is going to be.
Just BE.
by mattman73 on Oct 17, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you understand what Iole does. Pretty much everything he posts about the UFC comes straight from Dana. He’s not gonna double check all this stuff with these other guys and risk losing his inside info from Dana.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 9:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it’s too much to ask that Dana go at least a month without having some beef with one of his fighters.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Oct 17, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How is this a “beef”? It’s contract negotiations and Dana has been nothing but cordial during the entire process. Jesus some people can’t help but complain anytime Dana’s name is brought up. I get shit for being a Dana apologist when the haters are ten times worse. I can admit when he does something stupid but none of the haters can admit when he does something correctly.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 17, 2009 2:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Strikeforce press announcements
I didn’t plow through all 200 responses here, so it may have already been raised, but, if you’ve noticed over the past few months, Strikeforce always makes their biggest announcements on the week of major UFC events, knowing Dana will blab about it, which will generate even more press. This looks like Dana wised up to the game and got his spin on Henderson out there before Strikeforce could announce anything.
by andherewego on Oct 17, 2009 4:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one bothered by...
…“I didn’t read anything here, but would like to put in my two cents”
Maybe I just take my internet discourse etiquette too seriously, but the above sentiment always strikes me as “none of your opinions are worth my time, but what I have to say, despite it probably having been said prior to my involvement demands your attention.”
As far as the discussion at hand, I think Dan has earned a 200,000 to show contract but we have no idea if that’s what he requested. Anything more than 250 base seems too excessive until after he fights someone and sees if the Bisping knockout makes him a better draw.
by black dragon on Oct 18, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bloody Elbow
Related FanShots on Bloody Elbow
![Jake Shields looking 200+ pounds at the Strikeforce: Nashville press conference. (more pics here)
Strikeforce: Nashville on CBS coverage [vs. Dan Henderson]](http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/105343/007_dan_henderson_and_jake_shields_small.jpg)
![Strikeforce standing ground on April 17:
[CEO Scott] Coker said he wasn’t surprised to hear of the UFC’s rumored efforts to create a rival April 17 event.
"Was it done to create some confusion in the marketplace in Nashville? Maybe. I don’t know. I’m not sure," said Coker. "Is it good for mixed martial arts? I’m not sure. I don’t think so. I don’t think that when a company’s trying to counter-program you just to impact your ratings, it’s-- and this could go back and forth. One day, when CBS says, ‘Alright, we’re going to go head-to-head against your pay-per-view date and you can watch Fedor (Emelianenko) or Dan Henderson for free on TV or buy a pay-per-view,’ people are going to have choices at that point. But that’s something they’d never do. CBS went out of its way to make sure there was nothing else on April 17."
"The irony of it all was that even for the WEC, we all said, ‘Let’s not have the fight on that date with (WEC general manager) Reed Harris. Let’s support him and move it to the 17th," said Coker.
Full interview at sherdog.com
-- photo via sports.sho.com
Strikeforce: Nashville on CBS coverage](http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/104185/104oo4m_small.jpg)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
