Wing Chun 101 - Basic Overview of the System
by Akorn on Oct 13, 2009 9:53 PM EDT
96 comments
As an individual who studies and practices Wing Chun, I feel the need to provide information about this style, especially its fight effectiveness. I have read posts from some who question its usage in today's fighting arena and who believe they understand it and can "break it down". Some may have taken a few classes. WC is a frustrating means of self-preservation. Learning it challenges how you see yourself and combat/fighting in general. If you can't approach WC with an open mind you will never understand its true essence.
Like most Chinese martial art styles and systems, who you learn from is very important. Unlike other TMA styles that have standardized their techniques and forms, CMA has not for the most part. You could learn three different variations on Wing Chun's first form from three different teachers who trace their lineages back to Yip Man. This has caused confusion and resentment within WC community. Yip Man never named a successor. I will not go into to detail why because thats best left for another post.
WC is a conceptual art. It's based on set principles one must understand for success. Even if you learn all the forms you still wouldn't know how to use its techniques properly. Each form is like the English alphabet; you must combine two or more elements or movements from the form to create a technique. Next you must practice drills (two man, circle drills) to learn how to use that particular technique until its a reaction. If you have to think about it, it's too late. Chi sao is a training exercise. IT IS NOT FIGHTING. There's a saying, "no one is going to chi sao with you in a fight."
WC is based around a centerline theory. This is the line that splits your body in half. If you control the center, you control the person and the fight. You must protect your centerline at all cost. Also, we don't block, but cover an area. We do our offense and defense at the same time.
Now, how would a Wing Chun fighter do in the octagon? That depends on the individual. If they understand BJJ and other grapplers' intentions, then they can put up a good takedown defense. WC does have ways to deal with an opponent who wants to take you down. A WC fighter could pose problems with a unique approach utilizing jabs, front kicks, and elbows in the stand-up. "Dirty boxing" would be in WC range and I am confident our trapping skills would be extremely useful.
Unfortunately, like all styles and systems if your teacher doesn't know how to teach you how to "fight" (closing the distance, for example), all of your training will be useless. It is true many practice WC for years not knowing they can't fight. They can be successful against inferior fighters, but eventually a good fighter will take them out. WC students train with the belief someone is always bigger, stronger, and faster than you. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
CMA's teaching style leaves little to be desired. Bruce Lee created Jeet Kune Do to make up for not learning how to properly use WC. Mostly because Yip Man wouldn't show him. Once again a story for another post. Bruce Lee was a "student" of Yip Man's, not a disciple. Yip Man had many students but few disciples.This point is very important. Only disciples truly learned how to properly use WC. Some students who claim Yip Man as their teacher actually learned from an older kung fu brother.
Like all TMA's you must understand the system/style to unlock the techniques. Sadly, many in CMA no longer practice their respective styles for combat; they practice for health, hobby, or for show. Some CMA teachers mis-represent themselves to the detriment of their students. You must do your research before joining a school. There are no superior systems, only superior fighters.
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Great article!
As a former student of a TMA I feel that you made some very nice points especially about the teachers using the style and showing students how to use it effectively in a “combat” situation (or put simply learning to “fight”). When I first wanted to get into martial arts I researched a lot of different schools and at one point found myself at a Wing Chun school here in Maryland. Although I did not eventually choose to study that style, it was not hard to see how effective the style could be if the right teacher and the right student found each other. Despite the fact that I decided to no longer train in TCMA, I still have a fond memory of my days training and hope to one day see more TMA in MMA and the UFC. Again, GREAT article!
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by funnytiger on Oct 13, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks for the feedback....
I believe more TMA will be in MMA as the sport evolves. It just means more teachers of TMA will have to take a hard look at their respective styles and focus on fight applications.
by Akorn on Oct 13, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It just means more teachers of TMA will have to take a hard look at their respective styles and focus on fight applications.
I think that is going to be the hardest part, honestly. I think to be effective in MMA some styles will have to take a really hard look at their techniques and methods to figure out what works and doesn’t work in real world application. Unfortunately, there is this stubbornness that I experienced in TCMA that will prevent a lot (not all) from doing that. It’s the “traditional” part of TCMA that holds it back the most, in my opinion. Clinging to techniques and methods for the sake of preservation is noble but it doesn’t allow a style to evolve.
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
can you please elaborate how wing chun deals with take downs?
by CC11 on Oct 13, 2009 11:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to explain in writing...
But I will try. There’s a couple of ways. The key is timing. So is a solid stance. One way is to step back to the side and dig your forearms into your opponents shoulder (looks almost like a thai clinch) and guide them down or to the side your leg was at.
Another way is to step back and push-punch at the same time. If done right, your opponent will run right into your fist. Well timed low kicks would work too. Just make sure you’re strong enough to execute the kicks, otherwise a good grappler will eat the kick and take you down.
by Akorn on Oct 13, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting post, but I’ll admit I was left with a lot more questions than I had going in. But let’s suppose that just makes it a success.
by Ahhhoki on Oct 14, 2009 12:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's the thing....
Wing Chun doesn’t fit how most systems typically think about fighting. What I talk about in the post is just the surface. I can’t go into too much detail without causing alot of confusion.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wing Chun would be awesome to see represented in the MMA world by somebody.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 14, 2009 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A Wing Chun-esque technique would be Vitor’s thunder fist flurry over Wandy at UFC – Ultimate Brazil.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Oct 14, 2009 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Similiar, yes...
WC punches with a vertical fist. Usually, the chain punch is used to open up your opponent. You can’t really knock anyone out with those punches. After they go back you follow with another technique, like a kick.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Vitor was using a Karate right there? It looks like Machida style.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Oct 14, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its certainly not a proper wing chun technique due to the horizontal strikes but it does demonstrate the wing chun philosophy.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Oct 14, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vitor's boxing there
those are just nice straight punches.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 15, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Asbel Cancio
Asbel Cancio…
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Oct 14, 2009 4:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wing Chun
From my perspective Wing Chun can really be utilised well in Ground and Pound or even striking from bottom. Right now people don’t really have a technique for GnP (some do…like GSP for example) but most people to go Donkey Kong with the hammer fists.
I think using Wing Chun principles from a top position would allow you to deal much more devastating blows to the face and head of the grounded opponent.
Just food for thought.
It’s all about the centreline. BJJ 101 I was taught that the guy on the bottom wants to move away from the centre to create space. And the guy on the top wants to keep the guy on the bottom in the centre. This applies to WC as well. Add in the ‘Chi Sao’ techniques.
Some nice GnP.
by rainmaker6 on Oct 14, 2009 6:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I always thought the same thing. Maybe some of that wing chun trapping might do well in such quarters for gnp.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 7:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post
Very informing about wing chun and it’s usefulness in MMA hopefully a direct descendant of a disciple of Yip Man’s will learn some BJJ one day.
Would WC be considered a striking art?
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 7:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
btw some gifs or pics of some wing chun trapping would have been great
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wing Chun is almost purely striking. Kicks dont go higher than knee level.
I’m quite dubious on its benefits in MMA.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Oct 14, 2009 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How Wing Chung fits into Chinese Martial Arts
I’ve done a lot of sanshou in the past, if you don’t know what sanshou is a simple analogy is Martial Arts: MMA as Chinese Martial Arts : Sanshou. That is Sanshou was created as a way of synthesizing traditional Chinese martial arts.
In my experience many people consider wing chun unsuitable for sanshou. Things that really disrupt their game:
sidekick: if they try to stand squared this really punishes them, and its power makes it difficult to block
a really fast lead leg switch kick: any high kick really, kind of throws them off, especially if you make them think you’re going for a leg kick and then go high, because they sometimes try to block your low hick with their foot
any sort of greco type clinch: nullifies their centerline punching
a good fast jab: you can always move away while jabbing at them
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 14, 2009 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
are none of the techniques of WC applicable?
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by Kid Nate on Oct 14, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure there are great techniques but like shotokan it probably takes a lot of effort to get that deep. So kind of like the Lyoto Machida phenomenon there’s no reason there can’t be someone who makes waves in sanshou or MMA using wing chung.
Like shotokan though, a lot of people probably feel that they get more returns for their time learning other styles, especially at the beginning. There’s a certain satisfaction to saying “oh I learned how to kick someone”
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 14, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would disagree with this assessment
Wing Chun (if I remember correctly) was designed to be an art that can be quickly learned. As opposed to some styles where a practitioner may have to study for many years before they are able to use it effectively in combat. That is not to say at all that it is an “easy” art, but like anything in life, mastery depends on you as the student.
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trust me...they are applicable
What he’s probably referring to is someone who spent all there time doing chi sao. Alot of WC schools don’t know how to deal with certain techniques. But to say it can’t be used in sanshou is utterly false. I posted this link, but I do it again in case you missed it. This is a teacher in NYC that teaches WC a little different than most teachers.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Generally agree with your points.
No martial art is full proof or perfect. A big part of what made Bruce Lee so legendary is his martial arts philosophy. ‘Take what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is essentially your own."
Bruce Lee’s original martial art was wing chun. He learnt a lot from it’s principals. However he obviously showed that he also knew and recognised it’s limitations.
Even for different people different martial arts can be more useful/useless.
For example i would say that for a body type and attributes like Mike Swick, he should emphasize training his TD defense and the range and timing of his striking. Even though he’s already not bad he’s never going to be the wrestler that koscheck is because of his high centre of gravity.
(I also think that GSP has the optimal body shape for MMA)
For wing chun specifically i definitely think that it will be more useful on the ground than standing up.
It is however much more useful then say Muay Thai or karate in bar fights because of the close proximity of the fight.
by rainmaker6 on Oct 14, 2009 10:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
That's not why Bruce Lee started JKD...
I didn’t want to go into detail why Bruce Lee started JKD because its a complicated issue. As I stated in the post, Bruce Lee wasn’t shown how to truly apply WC. Individuals who were learning WC at the same time as Bruce Lee won’t really elaborate why. There are rumors but I don’t want to put that information out.
Remember, the forms are like the English alphabet. Just like you can create an infinite combination of words, same goes for techniques.WC is not a close fighting style the way you think. We have kicking range, punching range, and grappling/trapping range. The reason why the close fighting is emphasized is because most WC schools spend too much time doing chi sao.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bruce started JKD because he found the other styles he trained under lacking. It was one of the first hybrid styles that took pieces of other styles and blended them.
Your bias for Wing Chun is starting to cloud your responses and undermine your arguments.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Oct 14, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
^
I’m reading a little bit of this as well.
by rainmaker6 on Oct 15, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok...
Sanshou is a joke. Yes, I said it. Sanshou is kickboxing with throws. Its mainland China’s way of trying to make up for killing and displacing CMA masters. The Cultural Revolution pushed CMA back into the dark ages.
There are also ways to deal with side kicks and jabs in WC. There are a few techniques that can nullify these techniques. The key here is timing. Just like a grappler going for the takedown. If you don’t set it up, you’ll get stuffed or eat a knee. WC is not perfect, but a style doesn’t stay around for 300 years unless its useful.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is in response to the Sanshou comment....
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol. No offense but your superiority complex is exactly what the person talking about the resistance to change in “traditional martial arts” pointed out.
I didn’t say wingchun was unusable, I believe that if anyone works hard enough they can make a unique style work like Machida does. But there’s no point in putting down sanshou which is arguably more easily adapted to MMA (see: Cung Le), and whose fighters actually compete in K-1 so that we can gauge their effectiveness.
I have studied traditional Chinese martial arts before, with pretty reputable teachers. I always shake my head when people try to tell me that in the good old days there were masters that were invincible and would totally destroy modern fighters.
Yah I may be biased because I studied Northern styles and Wing Chun is a Southern style, but theory =/= practice, and I would like to see someone bridge that gap and apply wing chun to modern combat. I’m willing to bet when someone does it, it won’t look very much like wing chun anymore.
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 14, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The gap has already been bridged...
I have no superiority complex. Just my opinion. Just like you have yours. I’ve followed Sanshou for awhile. I remember when Cung Le and Jason Yee dominated the sport in America. Northern style, Southern style who cares. That is not important.
Everything I stated has to do with today. WC is always about change. You must adapt to your opponent. What I don’t like is people making assumptions about a style that really hasn’t fully exposed itself to the world.
I’ve practiced BJJ for a couple of years, but would never say I understand it beyond a basic level. Because I know someone who’s been doing it for 5 or more years probably learned some things only an experienced student would know.
WC will always look like WC. You can create many words in English, but its still English. Maybe someone 100 years ago wouldn’t know the word “computer” but its still an English word because it was formed based on English language principles.
Most WC people could care less whether or not you think their skills are useful in a ring situation. To test them out you’ll have to pick a fight with them. WC community is very insulated from the outside world, unfortunately. It’s only recently that some of the older teachers realize they can’t ignore whats going on. So in the future you will see more WC compete.
Think about this for a moment. Imagine all the damage a fighter sustains through their career for the chump change currently being paid. Only the top competitors make good money, the rest suffer. Why risk it? What is the payoff? Fame? Definitely not fortune at this time.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well as a fan of TMA, MMA, and CMA i think the reason to risk is to display your art to millions of people. To test your art against some of the best fighters of other disciplines in the world I mean does everybody have to be like Rampage and fight purely for the money?
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was my problem as well
The whole “my art is too deadly for use in a ring” thing never went over very well for me. If your art/style is truly effective it can be used in any situation. One shouldn’t have to resort to simply eye gouging and groin shots to be “effective”.
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Sentiments Exactly...
When i first saw Sanshou, it looked like China’s way of dealing with MMA without taking the time to figure out what worked best in each CMA…
Machida didn’t come up with some kickboxing takedown art… most of his art is still Karate. Many Karate students could go and learn with Machida and not be too lost.
However most CMA students could not apply much of what they know to San Shou
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
I’ll see Cung Le as a reference as soon as he faces some top 10 fighters
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the fact that most of CMA got thrown out when they made a sport, probably points to most CMA techniques not being very applicable…either by being too unpractical, or too nasty (eye gouging, groin attacks)
Could it just be that using western boxing is a better method of fighting than making weird shapes with our hands and trying to poke each other’s pressure points?
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 14, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While it could be that western boxing is better method and so forth it could also be that the time it takes to learn some art where you make weird shapes with your hands (btw not sure what art that is lol)
I could also be that it takes more pure athletic talent to be proficient at these other arts. And less athletic prowess to be competitive at what is Traditional Mixed Martial Arts today…Muay Thai, Wrestling BJJ
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is where you're wrong...
You can apply any style if you know how to use it. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wrestling, boxing, muay thai, and BJJ don’t have forms. You learn techniques that are drilled until you understand them.
With CMA, all of the info is in the forms, but you have to have the key to unlock them.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With CMA, all of the info is in the forms, but you have to have the key to unlock them.
This is the part that I hated about TCMA. Why over complicate it? Why do I need to “unlock” anything? Since I’ve started Muay Thai I have learned more about actual fighting in 2 months then I did in all the years in my TCMA, and I went to a VERY reputable school. It’s not like I was going to some sort of McKwoon. Quite simply, I credit that to not having to decipher movements from an antiquated method of teaching fighting. That’s not to say I didn’t gain some very useful things from TCMA, coming into a new style already understanding movement, balance, strength and footwork has made it a much easier transition, but I am amazed at some of the things we learn that we were discouraged from doing that are MUCH more effective.
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's all how you look at it...
On a historical note, they did that for their protection. For example, if you taught someone and they went out and killed a person, the teacher could be held responsible. Or what if your student attacked you?
They were very paranoid back then. Also, you could pack much more info into the form and allow the student to discover things on their own.
You are right, it stinks. Sometimes fate works in mysterious ways. Maybe you are where you’re suppose to be. My teacher didn’t have all the answers. He told me I’d have to figure some things out on my own.
WC believes in testing things out for yourself. That’s how Yip Man taught. He used to tell his students, “I could be lying to you.” Don’t take someone else word for it. Go try it out. Modern WC students and teachers have moved away from that, but this will change very soon. Trust me.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Technique/Form
Please explain the difference between forms and techniques…
They both are done with repetition until when needed the desired form/technique can be pulled out from reflex.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the difference
Forms provide the tools to create techniques. They provide a framework. Techniques are what forms are made up of. These are the tools you actually use to fight. The English alphabet is the form. The letters are the techniques.
The form doesn’t show you how to fight, it just a way to convey information. It shows stance, footwork, and proper position. You must break the form down to learn the techniques.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When we say “form” in TCMA we are referring to the “kuen fa” (or what they call “kata” in Karate). A series of techniques are what a form is comprised of and are usually executed in some sort of pattern. They are not inherently the same thing. You can know a form inside and out but not know how to properly execute the technique behind the movement.
For example, in the style I took the first form you learned was Sei Ping Kuen (Four-Point Horse Fist, loosely translated. No dirty jokes!) One of the first movements of the form is what is called Kiu Sau or “Bridge Arms” which is what the name suggests, a bridging technique. But in the context of a form it was hard to see how one would use that in real-time combat.
I have always thought there was way too much form work emphasized in TCMA. Again, I was really more interested in learning the technique itself and how it is applicable in real life. Sometimes the techniques behind the movements just didn’t make any sense to me and didn’t really seem to be effective. Tradition seemed to always trump practicality.
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A Combination
A series of techniques are what a form is comprised of and are usually executed in some sort of pattern.
This is what i would define in western boxing or muay thai as a combo (or what some call a combination) In the same way you can know different techniques separately like a jab, cross, hook. When they are combined this is called a combo. What difference is this from combining the techniques to form a kata?
Or as Akorn put it the English alphabet is the combo. The letters are the techniques.
To me all these things intertwine and have the same ultimate purpose which is to insert them into muscle memory.
p.s. It is hard to put either into real time use whether it be a kata or combination. I learned this my first day sparring. To put into real time practice from sparring often is about the only thing that will help, not learning any sequence of techniques, regardless of what you call it.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem to be missing the point of a form
The difference between a combo and a form may seem minimal to you but there is a huge difference. At least in the scope of how we are describing them. If it was as simple as jab, hook, cross I don’t think we’d be having this discussion. I think it goes without saying that sparring is the only real way of mastering technique. Forms are the foundation of most CMA and are sometimes not an optional part of the curriculum. Before I go any further I have to ask, have you ever seen a Kung Fu form?
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 6:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
No...
But i’ve taken many karate classes, and have done kata before.
But don’t be mistaken i don’t think they are the same thing but i do think they are similar in what both wish to achieve.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with the point of that is one of the purposes of a form
But I do feel like you are oversimplifying it. I will post a video later tonite, I am interested in reading your response.
Btw, good questions on your part! I’ve been down this road many times on MA forums (BE is not a forum I know!) but it’s a good topic to revisit occassionally!
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 7:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
So you do agree that they have the same purpose?
Both learning Katas and learning Combinations
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To a certain degree
Combinations, like I learn in Muay Thai, are directly related to a combat situation. I may learn jab, hook, cross, jab as a combination. There isn’t any interpretation needed, I can drill that and then use it in sparring.
With a form that is not the case. A form is usually a series of patterned techniques that have to be interpreted before being applied in a combat situation. A form, for lack of a better way of describing it, is almost like a dance routine that you have to pick out certain steps (or hopefully are taught how) to apply those movements in a real-time situation.
Here is a link to a video that shows the application of the movements of a Wing Chun (1st) form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyuySzDw7X4
Here is a video of series of forms from Wing Chun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvsY9hL9_X0
Here is a video of one of my old Si Hing’s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxyA3ARpXR8
I’d like to also point out that forms are often demonstrated during formal ceremonies or special occasions. Many schools have several interpretations of the same form and it is also common in TCMA to modify a form when demonstrating in public so that another school doesn’t “steal” the form. I’m not sure if that is the same for katas in Karate.
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Forms were developed for several reasons and it is especially important to many practitioners of TCMA that they be handed down to preserve the style. Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools that forget that there is a meaning behind the forms. It is not unheard of for a school to teach primarily just the forms. That’s why it is important to research a school thoroughly before joining. But that rings true for any type of martial art style.
All of this to make this point:
Learning a combination there is no other purpose then to use it in a combat situation. It is meant to be drilled and applied. Forms have many different purposes and interpretations and can be taught just as they are with no application behind the movements. I could teach any goober Siu Fok Fu (Small Tiger) and they could be GOOD at it but that doesn’t mean that they could use ANY of the movements in a real life situation. He or she would have to break it down and decipher the movements for real world application. There is no hidden meaning behind a combination such as jab, hook, cross but there is room for interpretation of many movements contained in a form.
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Explanation
But to have to decipher something your teacher has taught you will be too tedious for most students. Which now i see why the introduction of Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ has trounced just about every other TMA there is when it comes to what to learn when attempting to become a Mixed Martial Artist.
Unfortunately if this is what it takes to learn and become proficient at most TCMA’s then i am afraid what we are witnessing right now from Lyoto will be a rarity we may not see again for many years to come. Because to do all this, it may just take the right child’s father, to force him to train since he is three and then have a desire to compete, which is something it seems here that most wing chun practitioners don’t like to do from fear of upsetting your opponent.
Also I think the level of secrecy among schools as to what makes your art good and better is what i believe has slowed the progression of the art. If everybody came together to build wing chun and all added expertise maybe Wing Chun as an art could get some real world credibility.
1st video was good I’m not sure if he’ll actually receive any punches like that but i guess most of those moves COULD be applied except the throat and back of the neck strikes.
2nd video just made me want somebody to come punch him in the side of his head as he was going through those moves…
3rd Video not really sure what to say…I see some techniques in there but i know it’s a demonstration.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to point out
3rd Video not really sure what to say…I see some techniques in there but i know it’s a demonstration.
It was a form just like the ones above. A lot of forms are much, much flashier in TCMA. So as much as it was a “demonstration” that was how it is practiced in class as well. Like I said, this was a former Si Hing (brother) of mine when I was in TCMA.
Your reaction is exactly what I was trying to get out of you. I think you definitely understand the difficulties one has coming from a TCMA and transitioning to a combat environment. It’s not to say it isn’t possible, but it is definitely much clearer now why arts like Muay Thai, boxing and Jujitsu have become the staples for MMA.
Also, Lyoto does not take a TCMA. It is of Japanese decent so TJMA? lol
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats good and all but...
think you definitely understand the difficulties one has coming from a TCMA and transitioning to a combat environment.
This is exactly what i was trying to get out of you…Because why would a martial art…Something that was created for the sole purpose of use in a combat environment hence the word martial produce even the slightest of difficulty to transition into a combat environment?
Also to reduce confusion of using too many acronyms i might through wing chun and karate under the same umbrella because they both use katas and are both TMA’s.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all due respect...
That was the EXACT point I was trying to make with you over several posts but you were pretty adamant that there was NO difference between learning a combination as opposed to learning a form which is what started this thread of discussion. I made that point very clear and now you’re saying that was your point all along?
Also to reduce confusion of using too many acronyms i might through wing chun and karate under the same umbrella because they both use katas and are both TMA’s.
(I assume you mean ‘throw’ and not ‘through’? lol) Truth, they are both TMA’s but there is a HUGE difference in traditional Chinese martial arts and traditional Japanese martial arts. Hell, there can be a HUGE difference in the different TYPES of TCMA.
why would a martial art…Something that was created for the sole purpose of use in a combat environment hence the word martial produce even the slightest of difficulty to transition into a combat environment?
This, my friend, is an argument much older than you or I and I believe one of the reasons this post was even started. TMA’s are often credited with being too driven by tradition and antiquated techniques. Hence, the very question you just asked.
Are you now trying to make a different point?
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No not really...
ahhhh i see now… unfortunately i will only reduce this to learning that a combination is much more useful to the average person than a form…But i am not sure this is the same thing that Akorn was trying to get me to understand…
But now after reviewing the past post I see that we agree that they both are attempting to reach a similar goal but one just does it more efficiently and effectively which to my disappointment makes the future of TMA’s very bleak…well at least as how they will fit into the world of MMA.
Indeed older than you and I but i can’t help but to think that at each of these arts inception there was something very useful that could be found in them…
No not really…throughout this thread I have just been probing and learning about the art and TMA’s in general no specific point to be made…
btw… I meant to say although lol don’t know how through got in there too much homework i guess.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok
That definitely clears some things up for me.
I agree that these arts were probably VERY functional and applicable in their inception. Or, like you said, what would have been the point of creating them? I think the problem is, as fighting evolved some of the TMA’s did not. It is very sad to see indeed.
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well on a positive note...
Shotokan Karate has finally found a way to survive through Lyoto Machida…no one else from their family has found a way yet but…
So although that is a TJMA lets hope Wing Chun or some other TCMA finds their Lyoto Machida….
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did a TMA for 6 months and my instructor was VERY knowlegable and had applied his martial arts during Vietnam and even taught American Special Forces. He would routinely tell us that most of the forms that we learned contained techniques that we would never use. He stressed that the importance of forms is not to learn some special technique or something that can be used in the real world.
He always said forms fulfill several purposes. 1) (most important) They develop balance and coordination, 2)Allow you to practice your martial art ALONE (in case you have to), 3) Help you to develop muscle memory.
He let alot of errors in forms slide because they were not practical.
by mhauer on Oct 15, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good addition to what I said above
Also, as silly as it sounds, they are also a really great workout, depending of course on what style you take and how intricate the forms are, but I really got a great workout doing a form 10x in a row.
You are absolutely right, we were frequently told that there were certain movements and techniques that we practiced in forms that were either not applicable in real life or were just simply for show.
However I disagree that you should not be learning real world technique from forms. They, if properly taught, should be a sort of ‘cache’ of applicable techniques. I know if varies from style to style so this may not apply to the TMA you took. But if what your teacher said is true then your #2 reason is almost moot. Why practice your art if it is not applicable in some sort of real life situation? And the last part is a little disturbing to me:
He let alot of errors in forms slide because they were not practical.
Then why do it? I’m a “if you are going to do it at all, you should do it right” kind of person but that was the way my Sifu was as well.
What TMA did you take mhauer?
I do agree with your #1 and #3 wholeheartedly and should have included those in my original post.
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did Tae Kwon Do when I was a kid for a number of years and took a vietnamese martial art called Cuong Nhu for 6 months in college.
I did a TON of bag work when I did TKD as a kid but did virtually none when I did Cuong Nhu. Imagine trying to practice boxing on your own without a bag? Thus the reason for my number 2 reason above.
And not ALL techniques in forms are worthless, punches, kicks, knees, certain blocks, etc. can be useful. Sometimes though, there are some techniques that are not practical.
by mhauer on Oct 15, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did a TON of bag work when I did TKD as a kid but did virtually none when I did Cuong Nhu. Imagine trying to practice boxing on your own without a bag? Thus the reason for my number 2 reason above.
It’s called shadowboxing. We do it everyday in Muay Thai.
I wasn’t questioning practicing your art on your own because you can never hope to excel at anything unless you take the time to train on your own. My point was, why practice your art alone using FORMS (which is the topic of discussion) if you think most of the movements in it are useless?
You said:
He would routinely tell us that most of the forms that we learned contained techniques that we would never use.
Which is why I’m questioning your #2 reason, but ONLY in that context.
You also said:
He stressed that the importance of forms is not to learn some special technique or something that can be used in the real world.
Which just makes me wonder even more why you would bother to train forms at all. If there is nothing to be learned from it and there is no real world application?
Maybe to put my point back into perspective, I learned in my years of training in a TCMA that emphasized form work I question the purpose of them if you are not learning any kind of real world application. I would much prefer to shadowbox or drill techniques and they seem much more beneficial.
However (and this is where I contradict myself a bit) not everyone takes a martial art to “learn how to fight”. A lot of people take it as a hobby or as a means to stay in shape. In that case, forms are probably perfect.
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by funnytiger on Oct 16, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 and 2 are good but why develop muscle memory for things that would be completely useless? And if three is useless than it makes 2 also useless because your practicing and developing things that you shouldn’t use in the real world…
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not all of the techniques in forms are worthless, some of them are. But the repetition of punches, kicks, and movements are the focus of the muscle memory.
by mhauer on Oct 15, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
I do think that you can apply any style if you know how to use it…I talked about that and my distaste for people using that particular combination of arts in a thread i made a few days ago. Click here to read it.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
Your post is one of the reasons I wrote this. Your post was very informative.
by Akorn on Oct 15, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks...
I’m glad to inspire some like minded people who aren’t satisfied with MMA being compiled of just Muay Thai, Wrestling and BJJ like most are.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great article
I always through someone who cross-trains with wing chun would be interesting. Not even a master, just someone who has a few years experience; I’d love to see them engage in the clinch
by Shaun32887 on Oct 14, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So do I....
There are schools who add BJJ as an extra class. There are WC fighters/students who understand groundfighting. Unfortunately, there are some other factors keeping them from fighting.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What other factors
These chinese secrets never die i see lol
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was statements like this
That kept me from getting into MMA for so long. The elitism blade cuts both ways.
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by funnytiger on Oct 14, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL...there are no secrets...
There’s plenty of info on WC out there. Follow the link I posted earlier. It’s all right there. At least the basics.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Checked out the link...
And while there was valuable information there, i couldn’t find where they talked about the split in Yip Mans disciples and students teachings…
So if you could send me a link for that i’d greatly appreciate it, im somewhat of a history buff…
Btw i’m thinking that its because some were Chinese and the other ones weren’t which is why Bruce didn’t become a disciple because of his mixed decent.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 14, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard that....
But I can’t say that’s the reason. Bruce Lee did some crazy stuff when he was young. For all I know he could’ve pissed Yip Man off somehow. But I wouldn’t doubt that played a part.
As for Yip Man’s disciples and students, you can find a list of some of them (students) online, but only one disciple is known to the public. Yip Man taught a lot of people, publicly and privately. Some of these individuals don’t want to be known. Just search online under “Yip Man lineage”.
My reason for not providing this info is personal. Some of these individuals are polluting WC and I won’t drive any traffic to them.
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can appreciate that wing chung players may be “secretive” and no one wants to get punched in the face for small paydays, but isn’t it a bit odd that there is no international competition stage for wing chung combat (google it)? Meaning wing chung players don’t really even compete against themselves. Unlike wrestling, muay thai, boxing, karate, and just about every other combat discipline. Disturbing since competition is what drives innovation. Anyone can say they’re great and not compete.
Most wing chun competitions are for forms, and most wing chun people who want to fight compete in…oh yah, sanshou. lol. So until I see wing chun people apply it to combat, I’ll reserve judgment as to how awesome it is based on what they say.
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 14, 2009 7:21 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
These are combat sports. Even though you mentioned karate, they have created a sports environment for their students to compete against each other. WC never developed a sports aspect to their style. Maybe that wouldn’t be a bad idea. I don’t like WC competing in forms. Our forms are pretty boring. I’ve seen chi sao competitions. Not too hot on them either.
Does competition drive innovation? Sometimes. You could also cause rifts within your style/system. I would rather share with my WC brother than fight him. I can learn more that way. Remember, our system isn’t standardized. Somewhere there’s a WC person that has some information that would make me a better fighter. Why does everything have to be about who’s the better fighter?
by Akorn on Oct 14, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could also cause rifts within your style/system. I would rather share with my WC brother than fight him. I can learn more that way. Remember, our system isn’t standardized. Somewhere there’s a WC person that has some information that would make me a better fighter. Why does everything have to be about who’s the better fighter?
I think the idea is that the best thing you and your WC brothers could do for each other is fight. That way, you’ll have an idea of what it’s actually like to apply your stuff in real time against a trained partner. That’s usually a big part of how people get better at martial arts. The fact that WC people don’t do this (or if they do, it’s a secret) is Exhibit A in the case against WC as an effective martial art.
by JRN on Oct 14, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Alot of the people in WC (the teachers) either know each other or know of each other. Some actually trained and learned together. It’s like showing up at your family reunion to find out who the best fighter in the family. Not a good way to foster family unity.
by Akorn on Oct 15, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rifts
I’m most positive this is a common theme in most martial arts and and in each of the arts dojo’s people do have little things they teach that others schools may teach different but all things effective will be exposed during fight time anyway so I don’t think it’s something to be too concerned about.
I also don’t think you will necessarily learn more by someone telling you…somewhere there’s a BJJ person who has some information that would make Damien Maia a better grappler but that doesn’t mean he can’t compete against them.
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would almost argue
That actually fighting it out and discovering which techniques are “real” would mend some of the rifts that already exist in most TCMA. Go to any Choy Li Fut forum and you can see them bicker of lineage and techniques all day long, lol.
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would agree...
LOL at the forums
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want to say that this is one of the best threads I’ve read on BE, commentary too. If anyone else is a practitioner of a more obscure martial art and would like to enlighten us about it’s principles I would love to read their thoughts…and would gladly rec’ their post.
Needless to say, rec’d…anyone who considers themselves a student of the game should read this.
by Captain7 on Oct 14, 2009 8:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ps
I felt the same way about AfroSamauri’s post on TMA in MMA.
by Captain7 on Oct 14, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks And I Agree
I’d would also be interested in reading a Wing Chun 102 Intermediate Overview
Maybe talk about some of the things you said you’d save for another conversation so many times haha
by AfroSamurai on Oct 15, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
whilst i dont agree on everything regarding Wing Chun (see JRN’s post just above as an example), the discussion generated by this fanpost is very interesting
by milson on Oct 15, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i spent 3 1/2 years doing wing chun back when i first started martial arts. there’s a plethora of excuses as to why there’s not legitimate fighting/competition, but in the end they are all just that: excuses. in the entire world of wing chun ‘fighters’ there has not been one who has had even mild success in MMA. blame it on training, blame it on whatever, it is not suitable against a number of other styles in a true mma event. as far as a general system of self defense in a streetfight, i actually think it better than a lot of other martial arts out there that are deemed “traditional”, if you were fighting in a very confined space et cetera…but to say that wing chun could/can be switched over to mma if only they trained differently is another excuse to avoid the reality that most TMA’s faced with the advent of mixed martial arts.
I will say this though, I still use the “exchanging legs” to feint and set up my Thai kicks and teeps/push kicks. True story.
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by theworldsoldestsport on Oct 15, 2009 10:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I will say this though, I still use the "exchanging legs" to feint and set up my Thai kicks and teeps/push kicks. True story.
Very nice. I’ve being trying to figure out what aspects of my TCMA I could bring into sparring to help but haven’t really figured anything out. Is it pretty affective?
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’d be neat to start a thread about nifty techniques you apply from a traditional martial art to MMA. By exchanging legs do you mean a switch kick? like where you switch your stance so that your front leg and back leg exchange positions and you kick?
I learned switch kicks in TKD and I love using them both offensively and defensively.
by IpullguardIRL on Oct 15, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's a good idea!
Might have to be a collaboration post though, unless there is someone here who has enough knowledge in various types of TMA? I can offer some input for CMA but my experience is solely with Southern traditional styles. Hmmm… Now you’ve got me thinking… Dangerous my friend, very dangerous. lol
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
I am starting to put together a Fanpost right now that highlights specific moves found in CMA that I think could be added to someone’s MMA arsenal. If anyone wants to collaborate or just wants to make sure I add a particular move please email me: giftofjab@gmail.com
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by funnytiger on Oct 15, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said...
I don’t know where you learned your WC so I can’t comment. These aren’t excuses. Just a differing views. Not everyone who trains in martial arts do it to fight.
by Akorn on Oct 15, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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