Vince McMahon Says WWE a "More Sophisticated " Product Than MMA
by Luke Thomas on Oct 12, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
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Is Vince McMahon really accusing the MMA of going to "extremes"? Yes, and boy is it rich:
During the peak of what the company refers to as its "attitude era" a decade ago, the WWE's audience was dominated by young men. While its popularity has waned, the fan base has simultaneously grown older and younger with new constituencies, according to audience research. A little more than a third of its audience is female. The audience is ethnically more diverse that most shows: 62 percent of audience is white; 20 percent of the viewership is black and 23 percent is Hispanic — Hispanics were counted as both white and Hispanic. It's the most-watched English-language show on cable among Hispanics, the company said. With the Ultimate Fighting Championship and mixed martial arts becoming more popular as competitors, it made little sense for the WWE to ramp up the attitude with violence and sexuality, McMahon said. "You really can't compete with that," he said. "Why not deliver a more sophisticated product and not go to those extremes? If the audience wants those extremes, they know where to go and how to get it." Going PG has helped the company draw advertisers who might have looked away before. Pepsi, 7-Eleven stores, Mattel toys and the Army National Guard are among the sponsors that have signed up since the shift, the company said. I'll let the picture do the talking for me. He can change the image, but he can't run from the track record.
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The association with steroids also hurt. Anabolic steroids were found in the home of wrestler Chris Benoit after he killed his wife, 7-year-old son and himself in their suburban Atlanta home two years ago. McMahon toughened the WWE’s drug testing rules.
Seriously? Who believes this crap?
And the WWE doesn’t have blood, or divas in sexy underwear anymore? so what happens at ECW now?
Well, quite a few wrestlers have gotten suspended for periods of time for all kinds of substance abuse in the recent past – but there is still some question as to whether the testing program really extends to the top of the roster.
WWE still has blood, although it has become a lot less common – as have the divas showing up in lingerie. That does not change the fact that most of the divas are there strictly for T&A – only a fraction of them can actually do anything in the ring. As for ECW… it is more like Emasculated Championship Wrestling these days.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Oct 12, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Most of them lower or mid card guys.
And don’t say Jeff Hardy. He was the sacrifice to look like they were “hard on everyone”.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Come on now...
it’s not exactly fair dialogue to go “this is the case, but you can’t provide the example that exists that says otherwise”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Check it yourself
the only time any big name get “punished” is the Signature Pharmacy case.
Most of the guys who fail are in the lower to upper middle card.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
They’ve actually put on a ban on blade jobs recently. So yes, they hardly have blood anymore. And the divas are a lot more conservative than they used to be.
Seriously?
When did this blade ban go into effect? That’s been going on for decades.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 12, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure. It’s pretty recent. There were a lot of people upset because their last PPV had three cage matches, where at least one match should have some blood. But none did.
Guys will still get busted open hardway from time to time, some of the veterans will do it on purpose because they know that blood adds to a match.
Yeah, no shit
I used to be really into wrestling; born and raised in Minnesota and was around the business a lot when I was a child (my old man worked at the Civic Center where NWA held many of their shows in the 80’s and he used to leave me in the locker room to be looked after by the wrestlers). But it’s been dreadful for the last five years or so. It’s too formulaic, and maybe I’ve already outgrown it, but they’re not doing much to keep old fans interested or generate new ones. I’m really shocked to hear that they banned blading on top of everything else. Maybe they really are trying to create a PG product like the late 80’s early 90’s.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 12, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep, growing up in Georgia it was hard not to be a WCW fan, somewhere in the basement of my mom’s house there’s a pic of Ric Flair holding me in one arm and raising up the four fingers.
Agree with blackout that it just seemed like you could tell what was going to happen a month in advance. Maybe I just grew out of it? I haven’t watched in 5+ years…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember when Flair had the plane crash when I was young and the Ali vs Inoki match McMahon put on in the 70’s. I guess I followed pro wrestling for about 30 years before I finally lost interest (although I occasionally turn it on now if I am bored and there is nothing else on tv).
I’m probably the same way.. I’ll surf over from time to time just to see who I do and don’t recognize; or what sorts of antics they’re up to. If something legitimately interesting happened, I’d be likely to stick around for a bit or set my DVR, but it’s been ages since I’ve been genuinely intrigued. And TNA is the same grossly-contrived product that late-era WCW was, making it impossible for me to invest any time in.
I STILL poop rainbows.
TNA can’t decide if they want to be 80’s era WWE or nineties era WCW. With the exception of the goofy ring they haven’t ever done much of anything original.
I used to be a fan of wrestling in general when it was the Ultimate Warrior/Hogan/Jake Roberts Era. Then I was a fan of the Bret Hart era. But after Bret got screwed, I stopped watching and started watching WCW right when Scott Hall made his infamous appearance from the crowd into the ring to begin what I call WCW’s Golden Age with the formation of the Outsiders(later to be formed as The NWO). “WE ARE TAKING OVER.”
After WCW sank, I watched to see how WWE would handle having the wrestlers of WCW on their payroll, I was very disappointed and only watched the show ’cause of Booker T. once he left, I LEFT. And only until I heard about Brock Lesnar wrestling in the UFC did I start watching and became a fan in general.
The original ECW folded in early 2001 almost simultaneously with WCW. The WWE, which bought the deceased promotion and had a number of ECW alumnae, did a couple of annual ECW reunions shows in 2005 and 2006 that were huge hits, and then decided to revive it as a weekly series. Basically what they did with weekly tv show was dig up the corpse of ECW, piss on it, cut its balls off, rape it in the ass, and then throw it on the sidewalk to rot.
So yeah, ECW is basically just the WWE’s C-show right now.
Also, I watched wrestling for 11 years and stopped completely earlier this year. There really was nothing left to hold my interest, and MMA had filled the void. It wouldn’t matter right now if the WWE were tame or raunchy, it remains that wrestling in general is just fucking boring these days.
And by boring I mean it’s perfectly possible to have a PG product that’s very watchable. WCW had one briefly in 1996-1997. TNA Wrestling seemed like they had all the tools there at one point despite a much lower budget, but kept fucking it up, and now they’re in a never-ending tailspin. Poor writing is poor writing.
LOL McMahon
This is coming from a man that ran a Necrophilia angle a couple of years ago. And that’s just one example. Don’t even get me started on the Owen Hart death.
FIRE BRUCE BOCHY NOW!!!!!!
AND TAKE BRIAN SABEAN WITH HIM!!!!!
I don’t see what the problem is with the way the WWE treated Owen Hart’s death. The way they handled Brian Pillman’s death and Eddie Guerrero’s death were much worse. With Owen Hart, they had 15 minutes to decide whether or not to cancel a live show that they were in the middle of. I don’t know what was going through Vince McMahon’s head at the time, and no one was even sure if Owen was dead or not yet since he was en-route to the hospital at the time (he was Dead On Arrival), but I could understand it if he legitimately felt that Owen would want the show to continue.
The tribute they did for Owen the following night was well done and tasteful I thought. It wasn’t like when after Brian Pillman died and McMahon put his widow on the screen and interviewed her and pretty much forced her to tears when he asked what she was going to do next.
Eddie’s tribute was also tasteful. It was the fact that they exploited his death over and over again in storylines up through Wrestlemania that was disgusting.
More family friendly in the past couple of years, sure. More sophisticated…. lol.
by Cory Braiterman on Oct 12, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions
I watch professional wrestling still, and in WWE, one of the characters is a little leprechaun, Hornswoggle, who is an adult that they treat like a little kid, and he can’t speak.
Actually, since WWE went PG, they have really been trying to appeal to kids more than adults. Honestly, just the nature of professional wrestling makes it so that it is extremely difficult for it to come across as sophisticated. I mean, you have two or more guys in spandex doing these moves that would be impossible to do in real life to each other in a ring fueled by a made up feud. “Sophisticated” must be Vince McMahon’s buzz word for the month.
by chrisbboy82 on Oct 12, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Going PG has helped the company draw advertisers who might have looked away before. Pepsi, 7-Eleven stores, Mattel toys and the Army National Guard are among the sponsors that have signed up since the shift, the company said.
The UFC has Bud Light, the REAL Army, and Burger King. The comparison of sponsors is essentially a wash when you consider their respective demos.
I think it’s absolutely laughable that the WWE considers itself more “high brow” than MMA. Remember that this is the same product that was considered less family friendly than Ren and Stimpy, at one point.
I also don’t think having a partnership with Playboy as becoming PG.
Did Vince get their latest PPV numbers and realize that they are coming up rather flat?
Don't argue for the sake of arguing....
by Screwface on Oct 12, 2009 10:32 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I don’t consider* having a partnership with Playboy becoming PG.
Don't argue for the sake of arguing....
by Screwface on Oct 12, 2009 10:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh, I haven’t paid any semblance of attention to the WWE in quite some time. I was unaware of them no longer doing Playboy spreads.
Don't argue for the sake of arguing....
by Screwface on Oct 12, 2009 2:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Usually around Wrestlemania, WWE has one of their Divas doing Playboy. The last year for sure they didn’t have one doing Playboy, and I could be wrong, but the year before that a Diva didn’t do Playboy as well.
by chrisbboy82 on Oct 12, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
promoter is promoting his product. Can’t get really too upset about it.
by Phildo on Oct 12, 2009 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
My thoughts exactly...
this isn’t really all that different from Dana White running around talking about how 103 was going to outdraw Mayweather/JMM. They’re things the promoter knows aren’t true…but get people talking.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 12, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
basically they get a pass for lying.
by scrambledeggs on Oct 12, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course
Dana does all the time.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
This.
Promoters are walking advertisements, and advertisements do it all the time. I don’t get mad at promoters for saying an event is going to be the best ever, the same way I don’t get mad at Burger King for saying their new hamburger is the best ever or Microsoft for saying their new OS will revolutionize computing.
Rec'd, Phildo
I can’t believe this is an issue.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Have to rec that. I don’t understand why this hasn’t sunk in with people yet, these guys job is to promote a product of course they are going to do and say things to get attention and put themselves in the best light, if they didn’t then they wouldn’t be so successful at their job.
Yeah, I’m just so stupid. How DID I miss this? And how did I not realize it wasn’t also the job of people like me to nevertheless follow what they say? And where do I get off making any judgments about it?
How foolish of me! I had no idea I was supposed to offer commentary on those who have license to bend reality for their own purposes. I am so ashamed.
Man you sure are touchy today……
I wasn’t addressing that at you I was addressing it at all the people who don’t seem to understand the difference between what they say and what they actually do. You know the ones who read that Dana White says Tito is a chump and then rant for hours online about what a horrible human being Dana White is.
You guys realize that Vince is right though? He can’t match the UFC ‘s pure violence and TUF’s jizz sandwiches. There was little wrestling could do to compete with UFC’s depravity.
http://www.cagesideseats.com/2009/10/12/1081391/the-ufc-versus-the-wwe-wrestling
LOL
This is the same guy who calls himself a “genetic jackhammer” shudders and
has wrestlers cut “shoot” promos about another wrestlers drug problems/issues. I get it that he’s just promoting his (dying) product but cmon man, you stay classy and “sophisticated” Vince.
"Let's kick some names and take some a$$"
by StayGoldLikeFlair on Oct 12, 2009 10:42 AM EDT reply actions
OMG! Is he kissing that mans bare ass?
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
Unfortunately, yes, he is. What’s even more unfortunate is that they actually ran that as a recurring storyline at one point. Sophistication indeed.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Oct 12, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it was taken out of context here
With the Ultimate Fighting Championship and mixed martial arts becoming more popular as competitors, it made little sense for the WWE to ramp up the attitude with violence and sexuality, McMahon said.
“You really can’t compete with that,” he said. “Why not deliver a more sophisticated product and not go to those extremes? If the audience wants those extremes, they know where to go and how to get it.”
I don’t think McMahon was saying that the UFC was not sophisticated. I think he was referring to his own WWE product. He obviously can’t compete with the violence and real life drama of the UFC because his product is scripted so he’s saying why not make the WWE more sophisticated in order to reach a broader audience.
Far be it from me to defend McMahon or the WWE...
but to be fair, the Kiss My Ass club was from a loong time ago, and they are talking about changing to PG recently (or currently in process).
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
lol
Naturally he does. It’s just slightly less obvious than McMahons was :)
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Actually Playboy is going pg too, or at least PG-13. Saw an add for a Playboy reality show last night. Playboy is another company that can no longer compete in their original market and so is probably trying to shift to a more woman-centric “don’t you want to be sexy like me” product line.
Playboy is marketing it's brand
I had seen on the news that Playboy was bringing back the Playboy Night Clubs like they had in their hay-days of the ‘70s and ’80s. Appearently they are really trying to make the bunny trademark mean something again. When they started throwing around possible ideas to promote to their demographic I immediately thought UFC. A big Playboy bunny TM at the center of the octogon would work very well for them in promoting their brand.
PS- WWE lost me many years ago, I don’t ever think anything they do will ever get me back…
Can you blame them? With porn sites sprouting up every other day being more raunchier than the next, Hefner had to notice this and realize that they need to go in a different direction in order to compete.
Larry Flynt(Hustler) started the Competition, and over time the Internet(and anyone with a video camera or camcorder) intensified it.
Vince is right
It’s production might be more sophisticated. MMA doesn’t require complex invented story lines in the way WWE does, Nor does it require more and more rediculous in ring antics. If that’s what he’s getting at hes dead right.
Nor does it require more and more rediculous in ring antics.
YET.
But I have noticed the UFC trending towards entertainment over sport lately (and fans acceptance of it).
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
How do you figure it’s the UFC’s fault? Seems to me like the fighters themselves are the ones acting out. And shit, a couple of video blogs back, Dana gave a speech about the post fight interview which, basically, said don’t act a fool, don’t ramble about sponsors, just talk about the fight and go. The way Dana brought the hammer down on Brock after UFC 100 tells me that the UFC wants to stay away from “entertainment” as much as possible.
Now if you want to debate that fight of the night bonuses effect fighter gameplanning, thats wide open.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Oct 12, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana
also has Rashad do an impromptu face off with Rampage…. created an entire TV series around Kimbo Slice (“will Kimbo come back this week? Tune in and find out”) etc etc
Face off’s with future opponents is a part of the fight game…period. I’d hardly call that the UFC moving towards entertainment more than sport.
And it’s a REALITY SHOW. Spike TV has alot of control over it, wtf did you think would happen with Kimbo on there?
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Oct 12, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
hostile much? youd think I kicked your dog.
My point is that the UFC (Dana) has been following the pro wrestling model for a long time structurally and has no problem creating drama outside the ring to get people to tune into the action in the ring. A lot of fans (myself included) could do without the promoter getting involved in these issues via his vlogs (which he is bringing back) and press conferences.
Also the Kimbo slice move, bringing him in after knocking him for so long, and now trying to pass him as legitimate after his episode 3 preformance is mortgaging the UFC’s credibility for the sake of ratings.
Not really hostile, just your two points were incredibly weak.
Yes, the pro wrestling model has been used, but not to the point where it’s become “more entertainment than sport”. I’d say theres probably 1 show that contains that pre-packaged, manufactured “beef” between two fighters out of every 4 shows…I don’t see the UFC sitting around poking around trying to get a story going to cause interest, at least, nothing beyond your typical fight hype.
And I’m tired of hearing people say the UFC is trying to pass Kimbo over as “legit” the nicest thing Dana has said about him on the show was after the Nelson fight…and all that was just him knocking Nelson. Kimbo is there to do his thing, he’ll get a fight or two in the UFC when it’s all said and done…if he wins, he belongs, if he loses, bye bye Kimbo. Once again, bringing in a guy like Kimbo and constantly hyping him for the next show is just business…what else are they going to do? None of the others have done anything worthy of putting in a promo. I’d lose interest if all they had for the “Next Episode” clip was big men training for a fight…like I said…it’s Reality TV…thats the way the cookie crumbles.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Oct 12, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Face off’s with future opponents is a part of the fight game…period. I’d hardly call that the UFC moving towards entertainment more than sport.
Actually it’s part of the entertainment game, not the fight game. The phrase “part of the fight game” is a cop out.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
I don’t see why people keep saying this like it’s a bad thing.
All sports ARE entertainment.
If we want the fighters to get paid more, which seems to be a common theme everywhere. It needs to be entertaining. Ask the best lacrosse player in the country if he’d rather if his sport was more entertaining or not.
Do people watch football to see the game or to see if player X is going to body slam a referee in the endzone? Do people watch baseball to see the game or to see if the pitcher takes a dump on the mound?
My point is: If the sport itself is entertaining, one shouldn’t need goofy antics and a face/heel dynamic to make it interesting. The sport grew without it, and the current entertainmentification of the sport is, IMO, appealing to the base of the fanbase for quick bucks rather than the promotion of the sport in general – which I think Dana used to believe in.
Regarding pay, that’s not a real point, is it? Ask your friend if he’d like to get paid 6k a year while the head of the team gets 6 million. If you are serious (and I stress you, not me) then lets give less money to Lesnar and Couture and more to the undercarders. Unless you support that position, don’t try to bring pay into it. The UFC is at an all time high right now, and the lesser known fighters still aren’t getting paid what they should. Let’s not pretend that more money in the Fertittas account would change that.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Every sport has countless examples of the rules changing or stuff being done outside of the sports (that would be the equivalent of a stare down) to make the sport more entertaining, and thus better for everyone involved.
Why did Super Bowl 1 happen? to prove the NFL was better than the AFL? no to doing something exciting and more more money. 2 point conversions, forward passes, sudden death overtime? All for entertainment.
Why is there a shot clock, 3 point line, 3 second rule, various incarnations of the illegal defense rule in basketball? The constant rule changes in hockey, shootouts. Moving the mound up and down, changing what the ball is made of, banning certain pitches all done to make the games more entertaining.
Screaming “OMG its sports entertainment” is not an insult. It’s smart. Sports that aren’t entertaining aren’t successful. If having rounds, forcing stalled fighters to stand up from the ground, or having people who are going to fight in a month have a stare down in the cage makes the sport more entertaining, that’s fine, that’s what has to be done to make the sport successful and grow.
The rules you cited have to do with the sport itself, not side issues. Why does the NFL call penalties on too much celebrating? Unsportsmanlike conduct? Fights? Late hits? The rules you cited would be similar to the stand up rule when nothing is happening on the ground, or the old yellow and red cards for lack of action – things that happen during the game/match.
There is a line between sport and entertainment, I feel, and I would hope you can at least acknowledge that there is a limit to the grey area?
A three way fight between Kimbo Slice, Mike Tyson and Brock Lesnar, with Robin Givens and Sable having lesbian sex next to the cage – that would bring in a ton of eyeballs and money – guarenteed. But I don’t think the UFC should try to set it up. Do you?
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Still the rivalries do drive the big ball sports too, if the Giants and Cowboys or Packers and Bears are playing then people will be all over it, even if one or both teams are having a bad year because it’s a team rivalry and anything that anyone on either team says will be blown way out of proportion because the fans are just looking for something to get excited about.
The object for these sports teams is to sell tickets and fill stadiums and for most of them even in off years they can do that because the fans are fanatical about the team, that kind of following is part of the entertainment equation of the sport, it’s not just to watch in hopes of seeing good action it’s to support your team and enjoy being part of something. Heck just look at the explosion in fantasy sports leagues, there is no reason to get so deeply tied up into that unless it’s for entertainment value.
You bring up a great point. What was the most watched football game this season? Favre vs the Packers. Was it because of the Vikings/Packers fierce rivalry? It had something to do with it, but it was the overstated Farve/Packers dynamic. Did all of that “side drama” hurt the sport? No. Did it get a metric assload of people to watch the game? Yes.
Why is any sport on TV? Because it’s educational, right?
Don't argue for the sake of arguing....
by Screwface on Oct 13, 2009 12:21 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Brett Farve also happens to be a hall of fame quarterback.
Would you want your favorite team to play a quarterback who is good or entertaining? A pitcher who can throw like a rocket or one who is funny? “Now pitching – Jeff Dunham and Achmed the Dead Terrorist!”
Your point was rendered pointless the moment you brought the a HOF quarterback into it to make a point about entertainment trumping skill….
and ask yourself, why didn’t Michael Jordan play for the big leagues? People would have watched for sure, but he stunk. Skill > Entertainment in real sports.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Dana brought the hammer down on Brock after UFC 100 tells me that the UFC wants to stay away from "entertainment" as much as possible.
Dana publicly denounced it because Brock spoke against a sponsor. Lesnars role is to help the money flow in, not antagonize the sponsors. He didn’t mind the antics after the Herring fight.
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Yep. Antics help sell tickets and get media coverage which…helps sell tickets.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
Exactly
"Why am I here? Why does my mind have wings? Why do blue midgets hit me with fish?!" - The Tick
Vince started a Kiss my ass club...
This started in the early ‘00s. He was taking back power of his company from Raw GM Eric Bishoff (of WCW fame) and so for Eric to keep his job he had to literally KISS Vince’s ass. Since then there have been a string of reincarnations of the gag. To be honest I am not sure if this pic is very recent, haven’t followed it for a long while, not sure what HBK did to have to smooch the brown eye, but it generates ratings anytime Vince drops his pants.
I hate that I know this...
…but Vince’s club started and ended (the first incarnation) at least two years prior to Bishoff joining. If I recall the time line correctly, JR was the first inductee when Undertaker (during his Biker days) forced him to do so. It ended sometime later that year (2001) when the Rock made Vince kiss Rikishi’s ass.
Bishoff didn’t show up until sometime in 2003 and I’m fairly certain, Bishoff never had to. An unconscious HBK, Regal, and JR are the only ones that stick out in my mind. Good times, good times…
by black dragon on Oct 12, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, forgot about that storyline
I really recall William Regal’s kiss though. He really got up in there!
its all about his wifes senate race
he needs ot keep it in line publicly because his wife is running for senate in conn.
Nothing controversial here
Just Vince McMahon’s Death Rattle.
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
He is just grasping straws here
I would have to think that he is pissed at his writers and himself for not jumping the shark and taking his promotion in more legit “MMA Style” direction like his closest competition, TNA. Hey, Bobby Lashley, how is it going with being a “2 sport athelete”? ;)
Most of the PG stuff is attributed to 2 things
The Ex-CEO (His wife) running for a senate seat in connecticut, and that wwe is now a public company, everything Mcmahon does now has to go through shareholders who are the most spineless people on the planet. In the late 90s it was still a privately owned company, that’s why he was able to get away with the whole “attitude” thing.
Right now, is it more highbrow than the UFC? Hell No!
Is it more kid friendly than the UFC? Yep
Do Hispanics like it more than the UFC? Probably, but its just a matter of time for Zuffa to find and develop hispanic talent and it will certainly take most of the spanish speaking audience away from WWE
Lots of knowledgeable posters have already discussed why WWE has gone PG. Just wanted to add that they did the same thing in the early 90’s during the whole steroids debacle. That era of wrestling gave us such luminous characters as Sparky Plugg, Duke “the Dumpster” Droese, and Doink the Clown (who was actually fairly interesting until they castrated him).
Wrestling is cyclical. It’ll come back around.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Don’t forget Repo Man..
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Oct 12, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Papa Shango, The Bushwackers, IRS, Kamala the Ugandan Giant….. The good ole days.
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
Remember when they were giving away houses and shit?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember when Ravishing Rick Rude would bring women in the ring and basically molest them?
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
First of all, Fuck Rasslin...
But seriously, didn’t I see on cnn or somewhere that Linda McMahon is running for Congress or Governor of Mass. not too long ago. And now this? Does anyone else think the WWE might be doing this, hoping that the voters will forget just how “unsofisticated” they used to be, in an attempt to take away any and all ammo her opponent might have come election time. That is if the people of Mass. have a short memory. Seems kind of like this might be the reason for the more family friendly change in programming. Am I way off base here or what? I don’t watch Rasslin so I don’t know too much about the new changes, but something just doesn’t seem right here. I hope I’m right because the only other alternative for the McMahon’s are to try and make a run at their own MMA promotion. It would never fly with the real MMA audience, but it would succeed in planting the seed of doubt about the legitimacy of mixed martial arts in general.
"Pure as we begin
Here we have a stone
Throw to stay the stranger
Swore to crush his bones
Move by will alone "
It's this simple:
Wreasslin is fake.
MMA is real.
Keep firing Assholes!
It doesn't take rocket appliances to figure this out.
If I’m reading this right he’s implying that simulations of violence won’t sell as well as actual violence. MMA is obviously more “extreme” than WWE and they want to differentiate their product so their audience still has a reason to watch.
Frankly I think that’s a stupid idea. Adding more realism to things would probably cause a greater crossover between the two events, a reverse situation as to how MMA started in Japan.
I can’t imagine what “sophisticated” pro wrestling even is. At it’s best Pro Wrestling is base and absurd.
true
but it creates drama through simple emotions everyone understands, i.e. betrayal, hatred, brotherhood, etc.
that’s why it has a wide swathe of fans, even if they don’t read The Economist every week.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Oct 12, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone knows Vince is full of hot air, no reason to be mad at him for the comment. Now, the diehard fans of the WWE will take his word for gold, but thats fine. Right now PG Pro Wrestling and MMA are pretty much at the same level…just one is real, one is fake and has a story line.
With as classy many of the bigger MMA stars are, and others following their example, MMA really makes an argument for being “more sophisticated”.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
Not a WWE fan but...numbers don't lie.
If the numbers that they say are correct about minorities then the UFC has a lot of work to do.
Merriam-Webster definition:
Main Entry: so·phis·ti·cat·ed
Pronunciation: \-tə-ˌkā-təd\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Medieval Latin sophisticatus
Date: 1601
1 : deprived of native or original simplicity: as a : highly complicated or developed : complex b : having a refined knowledge of the ways of the world cultivated especially through wide experience
2 : devoid of grossness: as a : finely experienced and aware b : intellectually appealing
Keep firing Assholes!
It doesn't take rocket appliances to figure this out.
Yea I think that Vince apparently doesn’t know what the word sophisticated means. He has a point here but being more family friendly doesn’t make your product sophisticated, I mean SpongeBob Squarepants is family friendly but I don’t think anyone would ever confuse it for sophisticated entertainment. If you exchanged family friendly or PG for sophisticated would anyone have a problem with what he is saying here? The wrestling business is cyclical and it adjust to whatever is working for them at the time, the age of extreme is done but rest assured it will come around again one of these days.
Funny how Arum and now McMahon come out trashing MMA. They know they are getting their asses whooped.
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How is this trashing MMA? This is nothing at all like what Arum said, heck there is a lot of truth to what McMahon is saying here. If he had used another term besides sophisticated would anyone even of batted an eye at this statement from McMahon?
Yeah, Arum’s statements were disgustingly worse than McMahon’s.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Oct 12, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
No sophisticated but way more PG. I don’t think they will ramp up the violence because they don’t have to. WWE can coast at these numbers for years and it never be a problem. Because for someone like me that doesn’t follow it weekly anymore I still check up on the titles so that I can watch Wrestlemania which is still a great event to tune into.
look at the pay per view numbers. mma crushes wrestling and boxing for the last two years.
in fact mma forced boxing to have matches the public wants to see. i was channel surfing and caught something that cracked me up about wraslin. they went back to that dx crap and ben roethlisberger was part of it. lmao! what is that the third or fourth time they have tried this. let the kiddies watch wraslin and the men watch mma. give me back the old ecw where they were throwing people off balconies onto four tables.
by wolfmanshowlforever on Oct 12, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions
The WWE’s tv ratings absolutely crush anything MMA has ever done though. We get excited when we see ratings like EliteXC did on CBS with Kimbo but the WWE does that every single week. For Pro Wrestling PPV sales are only a part of the business equation they have fingers into everything (they even have their own movie studio), for Zuffa PPV pretty much is the whole ball of wax. That’s why the WWE is still the larger and more valuable company.
i'm curious about something. what is the wwe's worth as a company?
zuffa corporation is owned by the ferttita brother’s 90% and dana white 10%. both brother’s are multibillioniare’s and also own majority stake in station casino’s. forbes estimated the ufc is worth 1.1 billion dollars. when kimbo did fight on spike tv vs roy nelson they pulled 6.1 million viewers. dana white said there is a deal with nbc coming soon. i think that would be true considering cbs is going to show strike force (another mma company) on i think november 7th. main attraction is fedor e. vs brett rogers. i think nbc has seen the light. when ufc gets on nbc i think the ratings will be better than what the wwe gets on usa channel. when i was a kid i liked wrasling but as the ufc says “its as real as it gets”. if they ever brought back that guy who orignally owned the ecw and had the same kind of action i would watch that. i just can’t stomach the same storylines with different faces. peace out!
by wolfmanshowlforever on Oct 12, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t actually know much about what Zuffa makes or is worth because they are a private company (and it should be noted that what a company is valued at is very different than how much they make). By comparison we can see very detailed information on the WWE’s financing. I seriously doubt that you could buy the WWE for 1 billion dollars, heck if anything the WWE may of been the organizations rumored to of offered a billion dollars for the UFC, because no one is trying to buy the WWE and no one really cares to put a price on it it would be hard to compare that way (not to mention the 1 billion for the UFC is just a estimate). The Tampa Bay Buccaneers are valued at 1.1 billion so if the estimate for the UFC is correct then they are worth about the same as one average NFL team(including stadium deal).
As for tv ratings, Raw averages around 5 million viewers a week, even on off weeks they do as good as the UFC is currently getting with the Kimbo season of TUF. MMA tv ratings just can’t compete with weekly WWE ratings and the WWE has news show every week of the year to make money off of. The WWE just isn’t as dependent on PPV for an income stream as the UFC is.
Missing the most important factor
I glanced through the comments, and I’m not sure if the point has been made or not, but you miss the most important aspect of this: lack of competition.
Coming from an MMA fan now of nearly two years but a pro wrestling fan for over 10 (and not so much now), it’s hard for MMA fans to see where that comes into play. But the fact is that pro wrestling still has its niche audience, and there’s no viable option on TV right now aside from the WWE. TNA on Spike? Clearly not an equal product, and the company doesn’t have the pocket books to compete with Vince McMahon.
The WWE has chosen to tone down the blood, sex, and “extreme” violence, along with the best possible product to be honest, because they aren’t pushed. Quite frankly, they’re much like the UFC is right now in MMA, if the UFC dumbed down their product slightly. During the late 1990s when WCW owned by Ted Turner and ECW (with a revolutionary style) were detracting from their audience, the WW(F)E was forced to turn the amp up to 11 and put the best possibly product out there and push the boundaries.
In no way is the WWE sophisticated or totally non-violent. And the UFC is not highly sexual. It’s just Vince being Vince. The day that UFC is actually pulling away viewers from the WWE might be the day that pro wrestling fans benefit and see a product that Vince isn’t matching from the recent past.
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by Bryan Everson (The Royalty of Roto) on Oct 12, 2009 9:45 PM EDT reply actions
Violent and best aren’t necessarily the same thing, particularly in the wrestling business. The WWE has chosen to tone down their product because that is what fits best to their current audiences expectations. It was a very different world 10-15 years ago particularly in pro wrestling terms and the business always goes through cycles, people burned out on the over the top attitude era and thus the product changed now the WWE is pushing a more mainstream and viewer friendly path to match closer to their current demographic draw(they are currently doing surprising numbers with women) just as in the 1980’s they matched the demographic with a almost cartoon level of promotion until that stopped working. Of course if you have been watching pro wrestling for the last 20 + years your taste have also probably changed too and if you are posting here they probably swung to watching real fights as opposed to the soap opera for men that pro wrestling has always been. Eventually this will burn out and things will change again and one day we will even get back to guys jumping through tables and hitting each other with road signs too.
Man I wish we could have conversations about other things equivalent to WWE
…in their similarity to MMA.
Like what’s been going on with General Hospital? Is Desperate Housewives still on? Does anyone still watch those World’s Strongest Man competitions?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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i can tell you guiding light was cancelled b/c i saw that on cnn. longest running soap
opera of all-time. it started in the radio age. wolrd strongest man competitions have been replaced with ping pong tournaments. i’m not kidding on that one. funny thing of wsmc is one of the winners is going to fight in a mma fight, not ufc but some other organaization. desperate housewives misses the main blonde who got booted off the show a few years ago over a contract dispute. i’m being sarcastic as i think you are too lol! peace out. p.s if they ever went back to the old ecw with sandman, sabu and others when people were thrown off balconies i would love to see that again. tame in sports entertaionment is not better. ramble on!
by wolfmanshowlforever on Oct 13, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I love watching old WSM competitions. Marius Poudanaski (no clue how to spell it) is my step son’s favorite strong man and we both said he would make a great pro-wrestler, so it will be fun to see him fight in Russia or wherever that organization is.
I don’t see MMA ever consistently putting up the sort of numbers that WWE puts up for Raw. They already tie ECW on most weeks, and SmackDown has been falling drastically since moving to MyNetwork. Raw has been on for over ten years and in the beginning, it too was only doing a couple million (1.3 ratings and all that) so MMA has a lot of ground in that regard.
Of course, from what I understand, PPV isn’t the end all be all of their revenue, but it is still important, probably fourth on the list behind merchandising, international television rights, and DVD distribution.
But yeah, if Vince had said family friendly, I doubt this post would have garnered more than a few comments. I mean, there is a guy portraying a leprechaun that can only grunt as a form of communication and at one time ran through a painted hole in the wall like Bugs Bunny.
Personally, I don’t care. I’m a die hard wrestling fan (maybe not a WWE fan, but a fan nonetheless) and kid friendly doesn’t affect my enjoyment unless it gets retarded like the aforementioned incident. As a guy that watches a lot of cartoons (and not just for the kids – there’s only so many police procedurals/hospital/law dramas one can take) I think if you’re not lazy, it forces you to be more creative to tell your stories instead of relying on crutches like blood, over sexualized divas, and gay jokes. Not that the Raw writers seem to be embracing that challenge.
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