Quote Fail of the Day: Steve Cofield on Ron Waterman
by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:00 PM EDT
in News
172 comments
Rumor has it that 43-year-old Ron Waterman is being considered for Lashley. Lashley is far enough along in his MMA career that he doesn't have to fight a tomato can like Waterman.
Ron Waterman is far from an elite heavyweight. However at 16-6-2 and wins in the UFC and PRIDE I think we can safely say he doesn't fit the bill of "tomato can." It's people like Cofield who perpetuate this idea in our sport that anyone outside of the elite is a "can." It starts with a guy like Cofield with a visible position at a Yahoo! blog and trickles down into the forum trolls on sites like Sherdog and The Underground. It's an ignorant, ugly, and dismissive attitude which shows a lack of comprehension of the fight game.
Furthermore I'd say that Ron Waterman is exactly the right step for this stage in Lashley's career. Joshua Franklin -> Jason Guida -> Mike Cook -> Bob Sapp -> Ron Waterman is exactly the kind of path that fighters are developed through. Obviously Brock Lesnar's career being fast tracked has created a disconnect between Steve and the reality of fighter development. A fight against a legitimate heavyweight such as Waterman with decent wrestling, good strength and fair ground skills is an interesting challenge for Lashley, and probably a safe one.
But the real point here remains the irresponsible and disrespectful words of Cofield. The idea that a writer in Steve's position can't grasp the different levels of competition in this sport baffles me while the idea that a fighter with a .666 win percentage (including a 4-2-1 record in the UFC and PRIDE) is a can only serves to out him as clueless.
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It’s people like Cofield who perpetuate this idea in our sport that anyone outside of the elite is a “can.” It starts with a guy like Cofield with a visible position at a Yahoo! blog and trickles down into the forum trolls on sites like Sherdog and The Underground. It’s an ignorant, ugly, and dismissive attitude which shows a lack of comprehension of the fight game.
SAY WORD. Good stuff, sir.
by Chris Nelson on Oct 10, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed....
It seems like Cofield is OFF on almost any assessment of ANYTHING in MMA, and most of the stuff he writes is completely off base and only fueling the mobs of idiots. Ariel Helwani, while I thought he was a bit smarter than that, was fueling fires as well with the whole “Kimbo could fight K-1” bullshit. To be perfectly honest, at least Maggie Hendricks sticks to writing stuff that basically calls for hits, not actual hard hitting articles. Cofield seems to try to do both, and he’s terrible at the real stuff.
Brent hit the nail on the head. Touche sir.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 10, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Ever listen to his post-fight show? Absolutely brutal.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Oct 10, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sadly i’m starting to feel the same way
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by GregS123 on Oct 10, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great article Brent
The funny thing is most of these “fans” that like to throw around the term “can” have never even been to mma gym let alone done any actual mma.
I’d love to see one of these idiots walk up and call Arlovski or Rogers a can to their face. It would be a lot like Bully Beatdown.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What does training MMA have to do with this?
You don’t have to have played football in the NFL to know the Chiefs kinda suck. Nor should you have to have played football to have the right to say so.
To me can is a relative term. A fighter might be a can in one fight and not in another. The question is whether the fighter is being brought in because they have a low probability of winning vs. their opponent.
"fight against a legitimate heavyweight such as Waterman with decent wrestling, good strength and fair ground skills is an interesting challenge for Lashley, and probably a safe one.
I think the author pretty much agrees with Cofield about the competitive merit of the matchup, but doesn’t agree about the definition of a can. A lot of people use can in a relative sense—- Forrest Griffin was a can in Silva v. Griffin but was not a can in Griffin v. anyone else he has fought. The author seems to view it as a characteristic of the fighter outside of the context of the fight being discussed. Perhaps Mr. Brookhouse should explain his definition of the word can.
by toxic on Oct 10, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You dont have to train to have an opinion
but people who do train and fight tend to have more respect for other fighters because they realize how hard they train and how easy it can be to lose a fight.
My point was its really easy to get on the internet and say Arlovski sucks because he lost 2 fights and 1 was to the best heavyweight in the world.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and my opinion is that it is a lot easier to criticize somebody when your not doing it then to be the one doing it. Example the Chiefs: I can sit here and blast Matt Cassell for not being able to complete a pass but the fact is I wouldnt have been able to complete the pass.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These aren’t firefighters for fuck’s sake. I agree that there’s a baseline level of respect you should hold for fighters (or people in general). You don’t boo a guy in the cage because he’s not fighting like you want him too. But there’s nothing wrong with saying someone sucks if you believe that to be the case.
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by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fighters get bood all the time for not fighting the "right way"
Especially ground fighters. Hell it seemed that the Dallas crowd at 103 was booing everything.
This is imo of course it gets annoying to hear people berate fighters. The new one is Fedor “the can crusher” and not because they believe he sucks but simply because he is not in the UFC.
If Fedor/Sylvia, Fedor/Arlovski, and even Fedor/Barnett had taken place under the UFC banner same records and same result they would be saying Fedor is fighting the best in the world and not cans.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fedors record is replete with guys who were not ever remotely at his level. Not because he is in the UFC, but because a lot of his opponents have losing records or barely positive records. I mean, Hong Man Choi? Really? C’mon. There is a very good point about the general quality of Fedor’s opposition. When you are one degree of separation away from Jose Canseco there’s some grounds for complaint.
And god bless Brett Rogers but he needs a freaking miracle to survive the first minute against Fedor. Tell me he didn’t get chosen because of the high probabilty that Fedor will do some physics-defying shit to Roger’s face.
But anyways. I feel your pain about people mouthing off on the internet but that’s half the fun of the internet. If you don’t like bullshit, don’t read the comments.
by toxic on Oct 10, 2009 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may want to go check out Fedor’s record again, the only win against a “can” or subpar fighter in the last 5 years has been against Choi and possibly Zulu but at that time Zulu was looking extremely dangerous. Guess your could put Hunt in there because of his record but he is far from a can.
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 10, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
but at that time Zulu was looking extremely dangerous
Holy shit that might be the funniest thing I’ve ever seen on Bloody Elbow.
I’m giving you a rec just for making me laugh.
by Steve4192 on Oct 10, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aslo 2/3rds of Fedors career was pre-2004.
by toxic on Oct 10, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When you KO or TKO everyone in your way in just minutes until you get to Fedor you do look dangerous, once he stepped up in competition he was exposed for what he was.
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 10, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He lost to Butterbean
Need I say anything else?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 10, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hehe I’m talking about how he looked before he fought Fedor, not what a disaster he looked like after the beating Fedor gave him .
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 11, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing you're talking about his physical appearance.
Because his record before the Fedor mauling was…well…sketchy to say the least. 38-0 in Vale Tudo…Really?
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by Deo Wade on Oct 11, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a big fat scary man i tells ya!
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 11, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Dallas crowd booed only three times as a whole – the Eliot Marshal fight, the first round of Griffin/Franca, and after the first minute of lazy jabs from Belfort/Franklin.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 10, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with
Mike. You should respect the man for being willing to get into the cage, but you also have the right to say that they suck at what they do in the cage. That said, I’ve been lucky enough to have gone to a UFC event (couture vs gonzaga) and it disappointed me with the number of people that booed. Be it a lack of education of the ground game or just dislike of a certain fighter it just seemed wrong to boo any of the fighters. I was seated in the nosebleed/canadian section (everyone around us was very cool) and at one point someone adjacent to us was booing during one of the undercard fights. He was promptly chastised by everyone else around him until he shut up.
by dugmouth on Oct 10, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me address your Arlovski thing because it’s come up a few times: Arlovski gets a bad rep unfairly because some people are morons. Some people who train are morons, and some people who don’t train are morons. Unrelated.
But there’s no reason for me, or anybody else, to not offer valid, measured criticism of somebody (in an area designated for discussion, no less) simply because they could kick my ass.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
by Dodectagon on Oct 10, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's fair
As I posted above a lot of my beef has now to do with there are a large group of people who think anything not under the UFC banner is “cans fighting” and I think thats bs.
These same people that siad Fedor/Sylvia was a can fight if it had taken place at UFC 86 instead of Affliction 1 would have been calling it a great fight.
If they want to being up a valid point on why somebody sucks I’ll listen but because he is not in the UFC is not a valid reason for “sucking” in my book.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As somebody who doesn’t train, I’d appreciate it if somebody would send me a list of the observations I’m allowed to make, words I’m allowed to use, thoughts I’m allowed to have, and so on.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
by Dodectagon on Oct 10, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Your allowed to make any comments or thoughts you want
I’m not telling people what to think I’m stating my opinion. There are a lot of people on here that like to say fighters like Arlovski or Rogers suck and I’d be interested to see if they would say that to their face.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, if we don’t have the courage to say something to a fighter’s face, we shouldn’t say it at all?
by cyph on Oct 10, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, just don’t be a internet warrior.
"Did you feel you did well against Lindland?" "
Hell no.. I wanted to break the law"
---Rampage
by TearsofaClown on Oct 10, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol 100% true
i love the term Internet Warrior LMAO, half of the ppl on these forums are Internet Warriors {: )
by 1WAYtiket on Oct 12, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
looking at his record, waterman hasn’t won a fight against a solid opponent in 4 years… overall career records are wonderful, but recent records are more pertinent if you’re trying to defend his current stats as a legit fighter.
trying to find a video of his fight with dave herman from last year, where he lost in 2 minutes. maybe that two minutes was more impressive than i remember it being.
by Stanlee on Oct 10, 2009 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It wasn't great...
but those facts don’t make him a tomato can. There are levels between elite and can. Like journeyman which is probably where Ron would be classified right now and honestly is a perfectly fair thing to say. Can is just ugly and incorrect.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
found it… yeah looked like he gassed after about 1 minute. I get what you’re saying, really I do, but nostalgia is a bad thing when it comes to evaluating the current level of a fighter. Lashley would probably go into this fight as a 10-1 favorite… you can get upset about calling an aging fighter that used to be good a can if you want…
Oddly though, i do agree with your position this is a legit fight for Lashley. As a guy whose starpower exceeds his record, he has to fight main events for these regional shows. They cannot put him into a fight with someone without a name, so fighting guys on their downward freefall is about the best he can hope for.
by Stanlee on Oct 10, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Waterman hasn’t hit the point of “can” yet and I don’t really see a way to say he has. Because he didn’t look good against Herman? I can’t write a guy off for a single fight. Or rather, I can’t suddenly say he is a hopeless tomato can. He’s a journeyman.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He hasn’t look good against anyone with a modicum of skill. He gets flat out destroyed in one round by anyone with mid-tier ability.
by cyph on Oct 10, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave Herman is an extemely talented prospect
getting smoked by Herman is not something to be ashamed of.
If Herman were to actually train and condition he would be an absolute blue-chip prospect.
A can is someone whose abilities are shot, who can’t beat anyone.
A journeyman is someone who presents a challenge to a prospect and just might get the odd win against an up and comer.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 10, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mario Rinaldi has at least "a modicum of skill".
ATT product, win against Ricco Rodriguez, quality loss to Roy Nelson, held his own against Fabricio Werdum at the ADCC. And Waterman handled him just fine…
by Vlad on Oct 10, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't understand MMA, sorry.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but don’t take it too far in the other direction. understanding mma is not the same thing as arguing over the definition of a can.
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by GregS123 on Oct 10, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understanding that because a guy isn’t elite that doesn’t make him a can is a part of understanding MMA. It’s evaluating fighters, it’s understanding skills and relative values of fighters….
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mixed martial arts (MMA) is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artists of different backgrounds to compete.
by GoldenOldie on Oct 10, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beatrice “Bea” Arthur (May 13, 1922 – April 25, 2009) was an American actress, comedian and singer whose career spanned seven decades. Arthur achieved fame as the character Maude Findlay on the 1970s sitcoms All in the Family and Maude, and as Dorothy Zbornak on the 1980s sitcom The Golden Girls, winning Emmy Awards for both roles. A stage actress both before and after her television success, she won the Tony Award for Best Featured Actress in a Musical for her performance as Vera Charles in the original cast of Mame (1966).
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
...And Total Hottie
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 10, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, I'll rec that
Thank you for giving me something to laugh at during an otherwise dull night of course reading.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
where would you rank him in the HW class? Top what? 60?
by banter on Oct 10, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Waterman is a can, I can’t even imagine what kind of recyclables are floating around the LHW division at the UFC.
by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to clarify...
a tomato can would LOSE more than he WINS.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Vernon “Tiger” White (26 – 33)
Shannon “The Cannon” Ritch (43 – 67)
Sherman “The Tank” Pendergarst (11 – 15)
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by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then you would look at the relative merits of the fighters on those records...
White is probably a step above can in my eyes based on his ability to compete with some really great fighters, while Ritch is basically the defintion of can.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The crazy thing about Vernon White is that he’s never had a winning record in MMA. And yet it still seems wrong to call him a total can.
by JRN on Oct 10, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true
Vernon’s fought the Who’s Who of the MMA world and done relatively well against some of them. I guess I’d classify him more as a Journeyman maybe.
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by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
White had the misfortune to begin his career against the best in the sport at the time. He also fought in Pancrase which was infamous for its grueling schedule. And yet he gave many of the best of the day very tough fights. His bout with Sakuraba for example was a classic.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 10, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ladies (crickets) and Gentlemen, I give you...
Shawn Nolan (6 – 45)
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by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, look at that list; now I know which fighters have records that I can discredit.
by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clay Guida?
Pushover. Let’s see how he’d do against some REAL competition.
by Vlad on Oct 10, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The guy was 0-18 before he got his first win.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 10, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And his first two wins...
…were against the same guy.
Who retired at 0-4.
by Vlad on Oct 10, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if Lashley fought Ken Shamrock right now...
you wouldn’t consider him a can? Old generation fighters in their mid 40’s who haven’t fought any semi-legit fighters in 4-5 years are cans to me.
by GoldenOldie on Oct 10, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Ortiz, Franklin, and Sakuraba are not even semi-legit?
I’m aware that he lost to all of them but he has faced all 3 in the past 4 years.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sakuraba= 4 years ago
Franklin= 4.5 years ago
Ortiz= 3 years ago (okay you got me!)
And he got manhandled in all of them.
Waterman =/= Shamrock
by GoldenOldie on Oct 10, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ken's (3 - 7) in his last 10 and (1-4) in his last 5
And that last win was…….wasn’t really a win (R.I.P. Ross Clifton). I wouldn’t call him a Can. I’d call him washed up.
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by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically...
Shamrock possesses the skillset to compete, but is washed up to the point that he can not put those skills into action. I mean, simply because a guy would be a heavy underdog at this point in their life doesn’t make them a can. I’d favor GSP like 10000 to 1 over Royce Gracie…but Gracie is not a can
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Can/ Washed-Up” are one and the same to me. Especially in terms of competetiveness to Lashley.
by GoldenOldie on Oct 10, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is where i am coming from too… a can is someone who is set up to get knocked down… it’s a bit silly to really debate the etimology of this stuff though.
maybe we should just change the title of the article to “Ron Waterman: Not a Can, just Washed Up”
by Stanlee on Oct 10, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a respect thing...
disrespecting fighters upsets me greatly. Can is a term that gets thrown around SO often in our sport that it loses any meaning. A can is someone who never HAD the skills to compete. Washed up is a term that would apply to someone who HAD the skills to compete and now can not.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
exactly brent
if you consider can and washed up the same then Liddell is a can, Wand is a can, and Hughes is a can but the reality is they are just washed up now as age and wars took tolls on their bodies and younger fighters are getting more advanced.
It’s the reason Hughes was able to dominate Gracie but got dominated by GSP and 1 day I’m sure GSP will get eclipsed.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if their skills deteriorated? Say Shogun got knocked out by Chuck, or Bonnar never gets back to where he was… would it not be alright to call them cans after two or three years of less than mediocrity? They wouldn’t have lost their skills to age, more like injury, but still… what would YOU call them, if not a can?
by Excelsior! on Oct 10, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
respectfully-past their prime, or even washed up or over the hill.
disrespectfully- a can.
a can is fighter that is not or never was a good fighter to begin with. jmo, i can see your side as well.
by bdw on Oct 10, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
washed up
If Shogun got ko’d by Chuck and never got back to stardom can you just forget what he did in Pride beating Rampage, Lil’ Nog, and Overeem among others.
And that I believe is what Brent is saying a can never had the skills. a washed up fighter had the skills but due to age injuries etc.. he know longer can fight at an elite level
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You misunderstand. Shogun is my favorite fighter so he will never be a can to me. I was just asking, if you can’t call them “over the hill” due to their young age, what are they? I’ve always thought fighters who didn’t have the skills were cans, unless they had some success and were past a certain age, but Brent is arguing that if they once had the skills they can never be called a can. So I’m wondering what he would call a fighter who once had the skills but no longer does, and is relatively young. Since you can’t call their a can or washed up.
by Excelsior! on Oct 10, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
age is relative
you don’t have to be old to be over the hill. Over the hill just means you’re past your peak. A series of injuries can take a very young fighter over the hill.
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by Kid Nate on Oct 10, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plenty of great fighters are never right again...
after they take a bad beating in a fight…etc. It’s certainly not age
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that perspective, it becomes about respect. A washed up fighter earned respect, but you can no longer expect them to win fights; a can never earned respect at all, and you can’t expect them to win fights. You can give a bit of leaway to the former based on the respect that they earned, while the latter is just a waste of time.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You misunderstand. Shogun is my favorite fighter so he will never be a can to me. I was just asking, if you can’t call them "over the hill" due to their young age, what are they? I’ve always thought fighters who didn’t have the skills anymore were cans, unless they had some success and were past a certain age (in which case they would be past their prime/over the hill, etc), but Brent is arguing that if they once had the skills they can never be called a can. So I’m wondering what he would call a fighter who once had the skills but no longer does, and is relatively young, since you can’t call their a can or washed up.
by Excelsior! on Oct 10, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does someone who is washed up enough become a can? And if a tree falls in a forest…
It’s an interesting point. “Can” is a derogatory term used to denote someone just brought in to lose and make the winner look impressive. A “washed up” fighter is probably booked because, on name value alone, they will bring in an audience but there’s no way that they can compete at the level that used to be expected of them. So how much of a difference is there? Is it an ethical difference, or a moral one, or based on expectation?
It’s strange – I can’t honestly say what the difference is, but I find a washed up fighter sad, while I find cans more or less offensive (when they are put against top/rising talent – I hate padded records).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this fighter brought in to get "crushed?"
He’s a can. That is the exact definition of a can.
by cyph on Oct 10, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
can comes from tomato can...
meaning the kind of fighter that comes in and gets punched a few times and the red starts to leak out. it isnt can because you crush them like a soda can.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve never heard that one before. Neither has Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_can_%28sports_idiom%29
by cyph on Oct 10, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I just found it. Never mind, ha.
by cyph on Oct 10, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but sometimes , it is the can that does the crushing. see-sylvia/mercer. is waterman being brought in to be crushed, or to test lashley?
by bdw on Oct 10, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is the Clifton win not really a win?
Because he tested positive for banned substances afterward? Because if were gonna start doing that it’s gonna take away a lot of wins from a lot of different people.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because Ross Clifton was a 450 lb. man with severe health problems.
by GoldenOldie on Oct 10, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no. i think it’s b/c ross was just a “freakshow” type fighter with no real mma skillset. a very fine line between a washed-up fighter and a can.
by bdw on Oct 10, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ken would be considered “over the hill”. to me a can is a fighter who has never beaten anyone decent or even put up a good fight against a decent fighter. ken has done that, he just can’t do it it anymore.
by bdw on Oct 10, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cofield and (especially) Hendricks can be pretty embarrassing sometimes.
by Simco on Oct 10, 2009 5:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I saw a thread on Sherdog
the other day asking how much longer until Randy Couture is considered a can… while I’ve never really seen the aura surrounding Randy, it would take a long, LONG time to ever consider someone with his reputation a can. Just goes to show how little perspective some fans have.
by Excelsior! on Oct 10, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brent with the beatdown on Cofield! Love it!
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Oct 10, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know definitions are useless, so I go with benchmarks:
Shannon Rich – epic can
Bob Sapp – pretty damn close to can
Ron Waterman – journeyman, but probably shouldn’t be seriously competing too much longer
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 5:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i’d say the way lashley looked against guida, waterman is a step in the right direction. if he blows through waterman, then they should consider stepping it up. lashely might not ever make it past the "could be " stage.
by bdw on Oct 10, 2009 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rec'd by the way
This is some much needed dialogue.
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True, true. Can only have a serious discussion about stuff like this in a very few places.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately its possible that forum troll sludge trickles up. Maybe Cofield has been reading Sherdog.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Oct 10, 2009 5:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can’t believe we’re having a more than casual discussion about the definition of a “can”. Who gives a shit?
Cofield’s wrong about Waterman being an inappropriate fight for Lashley, but I couldn’t care less about his use of descriptive words.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I couldn’t care less about the “can” comment itself, just that he really missed the mark on how Waterman fits into the big picture for Lashley. I don’t consider Waterman a can. I don’t consider him a huge threat, but not someone you can just hit the gym a few times a week and expect to bulldoze.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Oct 10, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Mike
I for one am just tired of hearing a lot of posters now misuse the term. I’ve heard people refer to Rogers as a can and shit like that is very annoying to me.
It’s to a point now that a lot of people think if your not top 10 your a can.
Also if you dont like the thread why are you posting in it. Start another one and get people talking about what you want.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From the wikipedia entry for “tomato can (sports idiom)”:
In boxing or mixed martial arts, “tomato can” is an idiom for a fighter with poor or diminished skills who may be considered an easy opponent to defeat, or a "guaranteed win.
Example above does not seem like such a stretch from this definition.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well if were going by the wikipedia definition
Then all of BJ’s opponents, all GSP’s opponents, all Silva’s opponents, all Machida’s opponents, and all Fedor’s opponents are “tomato cans”
Well there is no guarenteed win in mma most people think BJ will easily defeat Diego, GSP easily defeat Swick or Hardy, Silva destroys Belfort, Machida destroys Shogun, and Fedor destroys Rogers.
But yet they’re not considered tomato cans. Hell I bet you the line on Lashley/Waterman would be closer than Machida/Shogun but Waterman is a can and Shogun’s not?
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“poor or diminished skills”
I think you skipped a clause.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could make the argument
that both Shogun and Belfort have diminished skills. Shogun no matter how good you want to argue he looked against Chuck has not looked like the Pride Shogun.
And Belfort is now 5-0 in his last 5 but before that he was 2-5 in his last 7 so you could make the argument.
It’s all a matter of opinion I’m sure I could find some mma fan that thinks Swick and Hardy have poor skills and there were people that thought Guida beat Sanchez(not me of course) but weather someone is a tomato can depends on how much you buy into their chances of winning.
Was Serra a can before the GSP fight? And if yes how did that turn out.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You either don’t understand what “poor or diminished skills” means or you’re being willfully dense about this. None of the examples you’ve brought up would come near to qualifying, and I think you know that.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he says it enough times
It becomes true
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Shogun does have diminished skills but that is only if you compare it to a Pride Shogun. He still is a good fighter but not as good as he once was.
If you disagree with me thats fine but you dont have to call stupid.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scratch that last sentance
Apparently I am that stupid.
by bigdmmafan on Oct 10, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who gives a shit?
Well, gee Mr. Fagan, maybe it’s just an interesting conversation that is fun to dig into. I don’t know if I “give a shit” in the sense that it’s vitally important to me, but I do “give a shit” in the sense that it’s a fun semantic debate that livens up an otherwise dull night. Do you get that bent out of shape about undercard fights between 1-0 fighters, just because they don’t have title implications? Whatever happened to discourse?
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Do you get that bent out of shape about undercard fights between 1-0 fighters, just because they don’t have title implications? Whatever happened to discourse?”
What does this have to do with anything I’ve said?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just making the point that sometimes an argument/discussion/debate doesn’t have to have world-shattering implications to be fun/interesting/involving. C’mon, man. It’s Saturday night (afternoon, depending on where you are). What the hell else are we doing?
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watching Cartoons until WEC 43 comes on.
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rewatching It’s Always Sunny… until the same.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have cable/satellite, and it’s damn near midnight in England. I haven’t been able to stay up late enough to watch a single frickin’ event since I moved to this god-forsaken, no-BJJ-having island.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One must ask…why are you over there?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PhD. My piss-poor luck that the supervisors I want to work with are in the UK. And in the one city for miles and miles that doesn’t have a legit BJJ club.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I lost respect for British people after one called me a “Colonial.”
by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha ha! My in-laws (British) refer to me as “the colonial”…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hide in a tree and shoot them with a BB gun
by Shaun32887 on Oct 10, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha. I’d start calling the In-Laws “Redcoats” then.
by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’d take it as a compliment and start singing “Rule Britania” en masse…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s occured to me. I’ve also considered giving them coffee the way that its made in Canada and the USA and watching their heads explode (there’s no decent coffee over here).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jersey them and start feeding them uppercuts.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 10, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figured you would be getting ready to head for the bar and look for some drunk skanks Fagan. After the fights?
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 10, 2009 6:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta let the herp die down this weekend.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet Jesus, that’s my cue to go to bed.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can still go mountain climbing or white-water rafting.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 10, 2009 7:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Or live blog the WEC.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being a fighter who will never be worth putting on the main card of a major promotion’s card without being up against someone with a big name dosen’t make him a can. He’s a journeyman, and probably on his way out…but for Lasley, he poses more problems than the rest of Lasley’s opposition…
Waterman is exactly the type of guy Lashley needs on his path to becoming someone in MMA.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Oct 10, 2009 6:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"anyone outside of the elite is a "can.""
I’m new to the fight game (my first UFC PPV was 83), but this has always baffled me.
by Shaun32887 on Oct 10, 2009 6:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t call you too new in that case. New at this point would be the horde of people who started watching with UFC 100. But yeah, the thought of people actually thinking that is pretty mind boggling.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Oct 10, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t believe you’re still rocking that sig. :P
by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I had a new one in mind, because I’ve acknowledged that it’s ran it’s course…and it slipped my mind…I’ll figure something out. lol
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Oct 10, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember seeing people call Mike Thomas Brown a "Can" before he lambasted Faber.
It’s something that’s all too common amongst MMA Fans.
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown is a can
A can of Faber-cide
by ZombieWamma on Oct 10, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If the phrase “anyone outside of the elite is a can” baffles you, you are right on track to being a well informed MMA fan.
Keep firing Assholes!
The Leafs are back!
by Ubernoober on Oct 10, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically we’re arguing the semantics between “washed up” and “can”…
Is that what this boils down to?
by KrmtDfrog on Oct 10, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You forgot “journeyman”.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there are many cans in MMA, especially at the Strikeforce/UFC level. You have to have some skills to make it to the big time. Cans are the dudes that are like 3-17 that come in to lose in showcase fights in boxing.
by xDieseLx on Oct 10, 2009 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think this is it.
The term comes from boxing and it’s hard to translate it to mma. The cans in boxing are the people that the boxers we know had their first bunch of fights against to establish their ridiculously large number and 0 records.
A can never has, and never will be close to relevant in the sport, and in boxing they would never even get near a tv camera or a way for anyone but their family and their opponents’ families knowing that they were fighting.
This has to change a little when being brought over to mma, especially with the internet bringing cameras to such wonders as Wargods and the Yamma pit, giving us more access to more fighters of varying skills, but it’s safe to say that the term can is way overused, and it would be very rare to see a can on a strikeforce or ufc card.
by Phildo on Oct 10, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should replace this article with one about WEC 43 and how great it is going to be to watch that tonight.
Cofield doesnt deserve press time on this page anymore, put him on the shit list with Josh Barnett.
by DirtyML on Oct 10, 2009 7:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ROFL!!
Are people surprised?
Cofield is the same guy who brought us such hard hitting interviews like the one with Logan Stanton, where he badgered her with questions like “Are you going to succumb and get your boobs done?!”
Steve Cofield is a tomato can. All of his articles are hits-producing Deadspin material.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Oct 10, 2009 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Rec'd for Poetic Justice lol
Yep, I have Twitter too. Follow me @deowade
by Deo Wade on Oct 10, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I must be really off because I think Cofield’s fine and Deadspin is one of the best blogs on the ’net.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Oct 10, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deadspin lost our collective respect when he criticized Lloyd Irvin’s story about foiling an intruder, even after hearing the audio.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Oct 10, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Deadspin has their moments and I suppose “one of the best blogs on the net” is a loose enough definition if you take into account the hundreds of “Y Megan Fox makez me hard” or “I luv ‘The Hills!!!!!’” sites floating around.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 10, 2009 8:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Though the “can” debate is quite enjoyable, the stronger point is that someone who should know better, Cofield, decided to throw in a term for dramatic effect. That’s my opinion, anyway. Dramatic effect is fine, but the term “can” makes it seem as though Lashley is going in against a punching bag. That’s obviously not the case. Brent’s expertly made that point. If you want to help people understand the sport of MMA, you need to make an attempt to be precise with your language. If you want to support your thesis that Ricco Rodriguez deserves a title shot while also obscuring the true meaning of a term, just say whatever you want.
by Cannon Jacques on Oct 10, 2009 7:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree with your article 100%.
The sad part is I think Cofield shares the same point of view as most casual mma fans.
by scrambledeggs on Oct 10, 2009 7:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s because Steve Cofield IS a casual MMA fan.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Oct 10, 2009 8:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Cofield is a hack
And I agree with Brent. Waterman isn’t a can. He is 3-1 in his last 4 and that loss was to Dave Herman. His 6 losses in his career were to Herman, Roger Gracie, Ricco Rodriguez, Cro Cop, Kohsaska, and Andre “The Chief” Roberts. IMO a can loses to mediocre fighters too and Waterman hasn’t. I think he is still a respectable fighter.
by swells2048 on Oct 10, 2009 9:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For a guy to be a "can"...
…I think you’d have to be flat-out shocked to hear that he won a fight against a legitimate opponent. Like Mercer’s KO over Sylvia.
Personally, while I think Lashley would be the favorite in a fight with Waterman, I wouldn’t be all that surprised if Waterman won. He’s a tough dude, he’s got some skills, and he’s got it all over Lashley on experience. I mean, Lashley’s had exactly one fight go past the first round – and that was against Jason Guida, who’s about half a step up from my friend Bob. The first time you go deep into a fight against a guy who knows what he’s doing, that’s a whole different kettle of fish…
by Vlad on Oct 10, 2009 11:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cofield
I think the mere fact that Cofield can do a blog on Ron F-ing Waterman of all people and it would inspire a thread on another blog that is closing in on 200 comments with people arguing both sides is proof in and of itself that Cofield is a hell of a blogger.
by andherewego on Oct 11, 2009 1:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or a hell of a dumbass.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Oct 11, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or you know....
…people on the internet really love to be contrary/like to debate thing/harp on semantics. I mean, really, most situations have two sides to them and on any given day, any of a dozen topics on this site can reach 200 replies, especially when it deals with “is such and such as good/bad as he is portrayed by media/critics/fans”
by black dragon on Oct 12, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I commend you, Mr. Brookhouse.
I am glad to see a writer in a favorable position such as yourself come upfront with this criticism. There are those of us who try to preach the message of visible responsibility from a much less prestigious position but we do it with the sports interests in mind. If writers like Cofield and others continue to be dismissive and toss around combat sports cliches in the wrong places, how can we expect the millions of newcomers to do anything but follow suit. Soon enough, opponents who are deemed tomato cans become worthless victories and the trickle down effect can end up being a detriment to both the alleged can, and can hurt the resume of the fighter deemed superior as well…perhaps that is going a bit far, but how farfetched is it, really, when you consider guys like Mark Hunt and Ron Waterman are all of a sudden labeled as cans by the general public? They can become less desirable to have as an opponent for promoters who live on public perception. Lets not go overstating a guys worth, thats equally unfair via the Kimbo Slice effect, but lets not sell a guy short who is making his living by DOING what the real influences only write about. A guy like Cofield would hate if he was deemed biased or not credible and therefore lost potential opportunities to work for higher paying publications. But it would be justice, wouldnt it?
by bonez2799 on Oct 11, 2009 1:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
You said Steve Cofield…
Nice write up by the way. This is a much needed conversation topic, but it applies to more writers on Yahoo than just Cofield. =)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Oct 11, 2009 5:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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