War Machine vs. David Mitchell at PFC "Most Wanted"

by Nick Thomas on Oct 10, 2009 9:09 AM EDT in News Comment 30 comments

"All War hate aside would someone please tell me how someone whose entire offense is trying to tie someone up and neutralize them in the rubber guard and not get hit can win a fight? What was done offensively? I have now watched it a few times and don’t think he lost any round."

-- Ken Pavia (War Machine's manager) on the UG.

"David Mitchell earned a split decision over "The Ultimate Fighter 6" alumnus War Machine, formerly known as Jon Koppenhaver, with scores of 28-29, 29-28, and 30-27."

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I don’t know why I watched this fight but it was close and I could see it going either way. This fight is a perfect example of the under-utilization of draws on our side of the Pacific.

Nevertheless, Ken Pavia should hit up a 10th Planet school in his area before parading his ignorance around the UG. Mitchell controlled the fight when it was on the ground, whether he was on top or bottom, and on the feet is was mostly even with War Machine landing the better power shots but nothing significant by any means. Not to mention that there are ways to take advantage of the rubber guard from a defensive standpoint, to the point where it’s senseless to even attempt it in most high level BJJ competitions.

by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Honestly, in the last two rounds…. he barely did a thing with the rubber guard at all. I’d be a little upset that WM lost here. While it’s a defensive problem, I don’t think it should garner points unless something is achieved.

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by Leland Roling on Oct 10, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, that is why if I were a judge I would have scored it 28/27 Mitchell. I wholeheartedly agree that little to nothing was accomplished as far as submission attempts and transitions in the latter two rounds. I’m just trying to remain unbiased; guys like Guida can do nothing but win scrambles and top position en route to a victory. I’ve accepted that. Now I think it’s time to accept that perhaps people can maintain that kind of control from the bottom (albeit less entertaining) and win because of it.

by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought it was 29-28 War, but… 30-27 is obviously ridiculous in any case.

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by Leland Roling on Oct 10, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If I was forced to pick a winner for the latter two rounds I would go with that, too, hence my initial comment regarding draws.

by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually, Pavia was not being ignorant, he is 100% correct, because this wasnt a Jits match, it was an mma match and fighters should not get awarded decisions for pulling guard the whole fight. If Mitchell doesnt like to get punched or isnt capable of securing more than one takedown, then there are plenty of Jits tournaments he can enter. There is also no way it was “mostly even” on the feet.

by RickDickulous on Oct 10, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you’re going to say that top position is innately more dominant than controlling with rubber guard (which I’m not even a huge proponent of, to be honest) you’re flat out wrong. I don’t care if it’s a BJJ competition or an MMA fight. If you are controlling the other person and preventing them from doing something, top or bottom, you’re winning. Personally, I don’t think lay and pray fighters should get victories: they should be draws. In light of the fact that they do get the victory without a second thought, I think the standard should be applied to control from the bottom. And there’s nothing wrong with pulling guard (which you should not equate with Nick Serra’s half-assed attempt to repeatedly flying guard-pull, or even Thales Leites flopping around during striking exchanges because both are different than what I’m referring to).

Not saying Mitchell did a lot and that he’s a great fighter or even better than War Machine. My point is that if you can lay-and-pray, you should be able to rubber guard-and-pray.

by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL…

Pavia actually has a case here. One judge scored that 30-27!? He’s fucking blind. WM nearly KO’d the guy at the beginning of the second round, and the first round could easily go to WM for the later round action. Pavia has a pointed in saying that guy simply used rubber guard as a defensive weapon. He isn’t moving or transitioning off of it. He did in the first round once, but that was about it.

It was real close, but I’d actually potentially give this to WM. But 30-27?

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by Leland Roling on Oct 10, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

All War love aside, can anyone tell me why a fighter would claim his opponent is vastly inferior and then complain when said opponent takes the fight to the scorecards to get the decision??? Why didn’t War overwhelm the allegedly inferior fighter offensively? I have watched the fight a few times and have no sympathy for War.

by SlickRick00 on Oct 10, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That’s Mr. Machine, to you.

If I were him, I’d sign my contracts “Mr. W. Machine, esq.”

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Oct 10, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was an awful decision. This was MMA not a Jits match. Ive never seen another fight where a fighter pulled guard repeatedly throughout the entire fight, never had his opponent in danger, landed zero effective strikes and won a decision. Every time WM landed on the feet Mitchell pulled guard, then did nothing with it. Terrible decision. The first round could have gone either way, two and three were WM’s 10-9. SlickRick obviously didnt understand the “all war hate aside” part of Pavia’s statement. Try taking your feelings out of it and judge it disregarding the dumb things WM said.

by RickDickulous on Oct 10, 2009 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough. Looking at the fight footage as objectively as I possibly can, I think War won two rounds to one. In my opinion he won that fight. Folks are understandably going to talk a little smack, though, because of all the junk War talked before the fight, disrespecting Mitchell. Just one of those things. In football, you can do as many end zone dances as you want, but be prepared to have your opponents do it just as vigorously when they play you.

by SlickRick00 on Oct 10, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree 100% about not feeling sorry for him, the guys a verbal trainwreck

by RickDickulous on Oct 10, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The guy did about as much as a lay and prayer.

Keep firing Assholes!

The Leafs are back!

by Ubernoober on Oct 10, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

And yet lay and pray is enough to win, while this is not?

by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

takedowns are considered offensive thus scoring points, being in rubber guard not trying subs is considered defensive thus not scoring points.

by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 10, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But the same objective as lay and pray is achieved, right? The opponenet is trapped on the ground, unable to bount an offence, and being controlled.

Keep firing Assholes!

The Leafs are back!

by Ubernoober on Oct 10, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But they are not scoring points while on the ground they are getting the points for the takedown itself

by xbuckeyex05 on Oct 10, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and points for dominant position (top)

I think the guy on bottom can win the round if he is being active (see round 2 of Guida vs Sanchez).

by slapjaw ackrite on Oct 10, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

k Well you should read my post above. Being on top doesn’t automatically mean you’re winning, and if that’s you’re way of thinking then you’re biased towards wrestling. I can accept that takedowns score points, but in this case it was largely Mitchell pulling guard, and thus no take down points are to be scored. To me, pulling somebody into your rubber guard is pretty much a takedown (not that I think it should be given points as such, but I think that forcing somebody into your [rubber] guard is the same as laying on top).

by Ahhhoki on Oct 10, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I should have expressed myself more

I actually agree with your standpoint…what I said before is based on the way most judges score points, and I haven’t watched this particular fight because it sounds like a snoozer. Notice that I was speaking in general, though…can’t really comment on a fight I haven’t watched.

by slapjaw ackrite on Oct 11, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Being in someone’s rubber guard and doing nothing is not a dominant position.

by Phildo on Oct 10, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

War Machine clearly won that fight.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 10, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i thought this fight would at least be competitive, but War Machine definitely took that one. now does any one have the Joe Soto fight???

by pop_gun_war on Oct 10, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Joe said he’ll have it up on youtube soon.

by RickDickulous on Oct 10, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno, War Machine didn’t really do much either. I’m not saying it’s clear that the other guy won.

I don’t really like the strategy of “get rubber guard and land some strikes” but it’s a little better than “let the other guy get rubber guard than hope for a standup”

by Phildo on Oct 10, 2009 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, WM was a bit held down by the rubber guard, but when they stood… he landed good shots almost every time. It’s a tough decision, but I would have at least given it 29-28 WM easily.

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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Oct 10, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. I have it WM 29-28 taking the first 2 rounds.

by TDITZ on Oct 10, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gogoplata?

Anyone who thinks War Machine won that fight has no idea what a gogoplata is. War Machine essentially spent 80% of that fight inches away from being submitted.

I score that fight 30-27 for Mitchell eeeeeeeasy, not only for superior control from the bottom, but for utilizing an extremely threatening submission game.