Does Mixed Martial Arts Hurt Amateur Wrestling?
While few would deny the rise of MMA has renewed interest in competitive amateur wrestling, some at the top of the American wrestling food chain are worried the better wrestlers may supplant an Olympic career for one of riches and fame. Notable quote:
"It's almost catastrophic to the development of wrestlers in our country," said Brands, who spent several years as national resident coach at the U.S. Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, Colo. "It hurts, it hurts our country."
Brands and Gable don't have a major problem with the MMA. They just want to see America's best wrestlers represent their country before worrying about their wallets.
MMA and UFC combine a variety of fighting techniques, including wrestling, boxing and several martial-art forms. Some of the top attractions in the sport have wrestling backgrounds, including Randy Couture and Brock Lesnar.
"If there was one sport you could pick ... it would be wrestling," said local MMA star Jesse Lennox, a high school wrestler at North Linn. "It's very one-on-one driven."
Couture and Lesnar recently fought at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas as part of a $1.118 million show. Lesnar, a 2000 NCAA champion for Minnesota, won and earned $450,000. Couture, an NCAA runner-up in 1991 for Oklahoma State, earned $250,000.
By contrast, 2008 Olympic gold medalist Henry Cejudo made about $85,000 last year.
"The MMA offers an opportunity for people to make some money," Gable said. "I'm not against it. I'm not a real big fan of trying to knock someone loopy. We just don't want to lose top wrestlers to the MMA."
That's the rub. Although opportunities like the MMA and UFC were not available when Brands' competitive career ended, he said he was more interested in beating Russians and striving for gold medals than big paychecks.
"I felt my call was coaching and I've never been driven by money," he said.
Lennox said Gable, Brands and USA Wrestling have nothing to worry about. Paydays like the Lesnar-Couture show are not the norm for beginning fighters. It takes years to make serious money in MMA, he said.
"What little money you would make getting into MMA is not worth a gold medal," he said.
To each his own and I don't think there's any room to fault those wrestlers who would rather chase Olympic glory rather than a UFC belt. One could have an endless debate about which is more meaningful, although most would say Olympic achievements are paramount. Still, it's an open question and I'm not certain there's truly a correct answer.
But that's neither here nor there. The central issue is whether MMA hurts America's Olympic or high-level international wrestling efforts. I can certainly see instances of limited hinderance where some elite wrestlers who can actually contend at the international level are lured away with promises of riches. But those situations are likely to be few and far between. What is more likely to happen is that the overall pool of wrestlers grows creating more fighters with wrestling backgrounds who otherwise would never be able to compete at the international stage (to say nothing of the fact that more wrestlers in the competitive pool increases the chances
Second, the chasing of Olympic glory and MMA success are not mutually exclusive. While both could not likely be sought after simultaneously, efforts in either endeavor can be temporarily post-poned. Fighters with Olympic cailber wrestling can take time away from fighting or wrestlers with MMA dreams can put their new career entries on hiatus. I don't think the option of temporarily putting off one career for another is particularly easy, but high level athletes generally have fairly sophisticated support systems that assist in their athletic endeavors. Between sponsors, facilities and management assistance there are ways for the best among the wrestling breed to pursue mutliple aims.
In fairness to Gable and Brands, I do not dispute that MMA will at some point intervene in the aims and career trajectory of elite wreslters that have heretofore carried the torch for American wrestling exceptionalism. But their claims that MMA is somehow catastrophic to wrestling's higher end are grossly exaggerated.
The sky is not falling.
Comments
Last Time I Checked....
There were no High School MMA programs, or Division 1-A MMA programs. Wrestling still has an advantage over MMA.
by nitro on
Jan 6, 2009 2:34 PM EST
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Not to disagree
since I agree with you, but MMA may be making it’s beachhead. I think wrestling (and boxing for that matter) are safe, but I think they may need to start sharing the floor soon.
http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/blog/2008/11/18/mma-has-hit-high-school/
by mythbuster on
Jan 6, 2009 2:49 PM EST
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Its going to be a while before MMA gives wrestling a serious run for their money. Nitro is correct about the programs already in place. High school comes to my mind first. I read about the wrestling in the daily papers sport section all the time.
by defshepard on
Jan 6, 2009 2:39 PM EST
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the mma is gonna getcha!
I love wrestling and I love when great wrestlers go win a medal or an NCAA championship, and then turn to MMA. I think it adds credibility to the sport and makes the match ups even more interesting and exciting.
I think people can be great wrestlers and fighters, why should one have to pick? Henry Cejudo could go to the next summer olympics and compete and have two olympic competitions under his belt and still have time to turn to a lengthy and significant MMA career.
but you already said all that
I love dan gable and feel he is the epitome of the warrior spirit.
im not impressed with your performance
by troy145 on
Jan 6, 2009 2:39 PM EST
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Gable could say “Fuck MMA” and I’d still love him.
by Luke Thomas on
Jan 6, 2009 2:41 PM EST
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Gable is as close to a living God as I can think of.
Anyone who’s never been on a wrestling mat when their coaches whip out a Dan Gable quote really should. It’s about as religious of a moment as there is in sport. The guy is simply worshiped and regarded with the highest level of respect and reverence.
I’m not aware of a similar figure in other combat sports. Maybe Fedor in Russia and Royce in Brazil?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 6, 2009 10:33 PM EST
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As a former division 1 wrestler
I think Brands is a little loopy himself. The reason he is going to lose wrestlers to MMA is that they do not take care of the wrestlers in the national program well enough while they are wrestling for the USA. People need money to live, especially if They graduate college the year after the olympics. Thats 3 years on the international circuit while they prep for the Olympics. IF they are good enough to even entertain the olympics. Ask Dan Henderson or even Couture about holding onto that olympic dream a little too long. Makes for a rather sparse way of life. There is no money in this sport on the national level. Henry Cejudo’s salary is not the norm, he was the elite of the elite and got some dollars for it. Most National level wrestlers make in the 30-40 grand range.
by Nick Travaglini on
Jan 6, 2009 2:44 PM EST
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Rec’d, but that’s sort of Brands’ point: for him it’s not about money but accomplishment in wrestling.
by Luke Thomas on
Jan 6, 2009 2:47 PM EST
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Without rambling for ever on this
Its really hard to convey my feelings on this. I have been hearing wrestlers complaints about the system for 20+ years. Yes, I am old. I used to train at foxcatcher on John Dupont’s farm back before he shot Schultz. All the national level guys that came in to train at the facility had differnet complaints about the system and how hard it was to train full time all year around. Back then a billionaire like Dupopnt would float alot of the guys. I just think its pretty high and mighty to ask someone to go for national glory over a better life for themselves and their families. Just my two cents.
by Nick Travaglini on
Jan 6, 2009 2:52 PM EST
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Yeah...
we’re not exactly trying to “beat the Russians” anymore. I mean, national pride is nice. But let’s not fault people for doing what they feel is best for them.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on
Jan 6, 2009 3:32 PM EST
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You make an awesome point, Brent.
National pride is nothing like it used to be. The USA has sat atop the world for so long that we have collectively forgotten that we are actively competing with the rest of the world on a daily basis simply to maintain that position.
Things weren’t this way a couple of decades ago…
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 6, 2009 10:35 PM EST
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As a country...
we fast get tired of patriotism also. After 9/11 it was all the rage…and it took less than a year for everyone to just kind of start to drift back to “yeah, America is great…whatever”
I’m not saying there aren’t wrestlers out there who really care deeply about representing America. I’m just saying it is no longer a deeply held “we have something to prove” type belief.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on
Jan 7, 2009 11:28 AM EST
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The reason he is going to lose wrestlers to MMA is that they do not take care of the wrestlers in the national program well enough while they are wrestling for the USA. People need money to live.
This is so true. I don’t know what the funding is like for US amateur atheletes, but in Canada, the money is basically not there for our altheletes in general, not just in the wrestling program. I suspect it’s tight in many countries. And let’s face it, not every olympic athelete can be Michael Phelps and get endorsements for millions of dollars.
I personally think olympic glory, for most atheletes, is short lived. And when weighed with the reality of having to support one’s family and make a living, having a choice like going into MMA is only a good thing in my mind.
I really don’t see this as an either/or situation. I look at it the same way the NHL is to Jr. Hockey. It’s a natural step in the evolution for the athelete should they choose to take that path. I think MMA gives wrestlers more options. In the past, it was either coach wrestling, or go into the WWE. There’s another choice now, and I think this opens another door, particularly for those kids who aren’t able to make the Olympic team. In that sense, not making the Olympic team isn’t the end of the world.
by pud333 on
Jan 6, 2009 5:42 PM EST
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If anything
I thought MMA helped wrestling. Young teens that follow MMA have a pretty good idea that wrestling is a great backbone for MMA and to be able to get that in school while your young is priceless IMO.
by xFenixKnightx on
Jan 6, 2009 3:05 PM EST
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Agreed
MMA has put wrestling back on the map. Without MMA, I think the Arizona State wrestling program would have gone kaput for real.
by cyph on
Jan 6, 2009 3:35 PM EST
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Exactly
Shoot, trust me when my 2 sons are old enough and have wrestling avail at their school I’ll be encouraging it all the way :) They already love MMA as it is.
by xFenixKnightx on
Jan 6, 2009 4:31 PM EST
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Maybe it’s just my region of the country but it seems like amatuer wrestling is a fairly marginalized second tier sport to start with. MMA’s high profile amatuer wrestlers shines a spotlight on the sport that it’s never had before. Heck it’s a sport where the “pro” version is a scripted soap opera and guys had to chose between altruistic love of the sport or the need to actually make a living. Now with MMA there is a real future for people who accel at wrestling and a dream that can lure youngsters into taking it up to start with.
As for the Olympics issue, well there was a Olympic gold medalist in Judo at the last UFC event looking to cash that fame in on a paycheck. All they have to do is push that winning a gold medal will also equal a higher paying contract and more doors opening when they do move on to MMA. Entry level MMA fighters normally don’t make squat but a entry level MMA fighter who’s had his face on a Wheaties box sure might. Instead of fighting this they should embrace MMA and use it to their advantage too.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 3:11 PM EST
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Easy answer
What region are you from?
by Nick Travaglini on
Jan 6, 2009 3:18 PM EST
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Ohio Valley in college sports region. I don’t even think the college I went to(Murray State) even had a wrestling team and I know the high school I attended didn’t.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 3:45 PM EST
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Correct
That’s the other part: the UFC often wants athletes AFTER they’ve achieved Olympic glory. It enhances the ability of the UFC to promote the fighter, the org and the sport.
by Luke Thomas on
Jan 6, 2009 3:19 PM EST
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Its like a football player playing another year in college to get drafted higher and make a larger amount of money. Gold medals are marketing tools forever.
I mean they are giving no credit to MMA for growth of wrestling at lower levels, that will surely grow a larger talent pool and higher quality of wrestlers. And with a future in a pro sport more kids will dream. MMA will bring it back from its title IX decline in numbers and programs.
by szucconi on
Jan 6, 2009 3:36 PM EST
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Honestly I wonder why they haven’t approached the UFC to be a sponsor for the US olympic wrestling team.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 3:55 PM EST
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He’s dead wrong.
The popularity of MMA is helping to grow wrestling programs around the country. On top of that, anyone with half a brain knows that you don’t come into the sport and make a ton of cash. Most guys who are good enough to get picked up by a top organization have to fight for a few years to do so and than at that point they still fight for pennies until they make a name for themselves.
If anything, an Olympic career would be the way to go for a top wrestler if his end goal was to make it in MMA. Having an Olympic background would create a buzz around him and thus increase his wallet once he signed with an organization.
by dropkick101 on
Jan 6, 2009 3:18 PM EST
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I hear Nick T's point.....
More financial support for olympic athletes is needed. If the concern is that great wrestlers are passing up olympic pursuits because they are lured away by the possibility of big $ in MMA (this is absurd as most MMA’s don’t make good money) then the logical solution would be to make olympic wrestling more lucrative. I don’t know the financial details but do athletes get financial bonuses for winning medals? Are olympic wrestlers financially supported during training years?
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on
Jan 6, 2009 3:22 PM EST
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Has Professional boxing killed our Olympic Boxing Program?
This is only news because Wrestlers largely didn’t have a legitimate career path after the end of their amatuer days unitl MMA.
by Razreshat on
Jan 6, 2009 3:25 PM EST
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Olympic boxing...
is killing Olympic boxing. That shit is impossible to follow and is as dirty as anything I’ve ever seen.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on
Jan 6, 2009 3:33 PM EST
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plus 1. When I first started watching it last summer I though it had some weird method of scoring by rounds, just cause I kept seeing guys hitting the crap out of each other and not scoring any points.
by Michaelthebox on
Jan 6, 2009 5:14 PM EST
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When it's me..
and Scott from BadLefthook sitting around watching it and can’t figure out what the hell is going on…there is something wrong with the way it works. I mean, we’re both boxing guys going way back and we had no friggin clue how the hell to keep track of anything.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on
Jan 6, 2009 6:51 PM EST
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I think, on balance, MMA helps the cause of amateur wrestling. Where I’m from, amateur wrestling is practically nonexistent. But because of MMA, people like myself are introduced to guys with wrestling pedigrees, and in turn learn more about the sport itself. Of course, there are going to be some negative consequences created by the emergence of MMA for endeavors like Olympic wrestling. However, the greater demand for individuals with wrestling backgrounds created by a healthy MMA industry should lead to people getting into amateur wrestling that wouldn’t have otherwise.
I don’t think you can throw enough money at an amateur sport to keep people that are looking for a career from leaving. Eliminating professional opportunities for these amateur athletes isn’t an optioin either. That’s great if you are willing to forego a career now in search of an Olympic medal, but I don’t see how you can fault someone for doing something they believe will make them a living for years to come.
by Cannon Jacques on
Jan 6, 2009 3:41 PM EST
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" They just want to see America's best wrestlers represent their country before worrying about their wallets."
Good luck with that, man. People gotta eat and you can’t spread gold medals on a slice of bread.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on
Jan 6, 2009 3:44 PM EST
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Wasn’t the same thing said about the US Olympic basketball team before they changed the eligibility rules? The solution there was to allow professional athletes to represent their country so they could do both.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 4:00 PM EST
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I think that most of the elite wrestlers will stay and guys like “king Mo” and others will go out and get the big dollars.
by EVeezy on
Jan 6, 2009 3:56 PM EST
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I would love
to poll High School wrestling coaches across the nation and find out what type of increase or decrease in participation they have had since the emergence of MMA.
by nitro on
Jan 6, 2009 4:34 PM EST
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http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/3/7/95540/13226
They’d say it helped.
by Luke Thomas on
Jan 6, 2009 4:42 PM EST
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MMA and collegiate wrestlers
I was a college football player and was reminded constantly about keeping my amateur status to remain eligible. I do know of a few of my college teammates who fought amateur fights at Indian Casinos in the summers for fun though. My questions is if a collegiate wrestler would be able to keep his amateur status if he fought in pro-MMA fights?
There have been instances of the NCAA allowing athletes to turn pro in one sport and remain eligible in another sport (Tim Dwight comes to mind). There has also been instances where the NCAA bans an athlete from competition after turning pro in another sport (Jeremy Bloom. But his ban was for due to his acceptance of sponsorship dollars). Both cases involve athletes that went pro in a completely different sport from the one in which they were trying to remain eligible for.
Would the NCAA ban an amateur wrestler for competing in pro-MMA fights due to the sports usage of wrestling as a discipline? Could an athlete get away with fighting in MMA as long as he does not accept sponsorship dollars?
by Mike_Honcho on
Jan 6, 2009 4:53 PM EST
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The question as it applies to this article would be whether the Olympics would deny a wrester’s eligibility if they had fought professional MMA fights?
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 5:46 PM EST
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I don’t think it’s really about being “eligible” to compete in the olympics. It’s about a fighter deciding how much time to spend chasing the olympic dream when there is now an alternative way to make a living using their wrestling skills.
by Phildo on
Jan 6, 2009 7:02 PM EST
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If guys can fight MMA in the 4 years between Olympics instead of starving to death then they may be more likely to pursue that dream not less.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 7:06 PM EST
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But how many people will still be able to compete at an olympic level if they aren’t training full time wrestling? How would the former NCAA champion wrestlers that are now fighting mma fair in a straight up wrestling match against the current champion?
by Phildo on
Jan 6, 2009 7:12 PM EST
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Lets say a guy fought MMA three of the four years and then took a whole year to just train back to olympic form. It’s not like they would be out of shape and it’s not like they wouldn’t be working on wrestling at all during that time period.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 7:36 PM EST
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I don’t think the problem he’s referring to is the sport in general, but just the very top wrestlers in the US wrestling program.
How many times did Couture try out for the Olympics? Those days are over.
Now, wrestlers will have, at most, one shot at making the olympics (if that). Once they get eliminated from the Olympic Trials finish at the olympics, why would they stick around for another 4 years to try again. Not only will they be leaving a lot of cash on the table that they could make fighting mma, they are also leaving time on the table. Time when it comes to actually fighting, and the time they have to train the other aspects of the mma game.
in the past, top-level wrestlers have become HS or college wrestling coaches and stayed 100% focused on wrestling, so they could continue to use the olympics as a goal, because they were only focused on wrestling and there was really nothing else for them to do with their skills. But now there is a much more viable option. Yes, the few people in the world who get the gold every 4 years will have a leg up when it comes to drawing and negotiating in their mma careers, but not many people are going to be willing to sacrifice (another) 4 years of the money and mma-training.
by Phildo on
Jan 6, 2009 6:52 PM EST
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No but the fact that Olympic tryout failures won’t wait 4 years for another shot will be more than balanced out by the increased exposure and athleticism MMA will bring into amateur MMA. A deepening of the talent pool can only help the US Olymic teams chances in the long run. I didn’t think dreaming of Olymic gold was as big a deal in the US in any sport anymore anyway.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 7:03 PM EST
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Yea, but this is still what they’re scared of. Now it’s going to become like college sports, where there is only a limited time the athlete can stay “in the program.”
It’s easier for them to get great wrestlers to stick around for a few olympic cycles than to have to find and train a new bunch every time around. Yes, part of that will be made up because more people will be into wrestling, but it’s a change in the way the system works.
by Phildo on
Jan 6, 2009 7:08 PM EST
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I can understand fear of change but things were changing anyway. Amateur wrestling seemed to be a fading sport that had been losing guys to Pro Wrestling and just the plain need to actually be able to support your family for years and winning Olympic gold isn’t the dream that it used to be in the US anymore, heck it’s getting harder to even get people to watch the Olympics these days.
by who me on
Jan 6, 2009 7:45 PM EST
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The issue of eligibility is definitely important
at least at the NCAA level, they will not allow any athletes to take any kind of sponsorship or receive any kind of compensation. This came to light when Olympic skier Jeremy Bloom was banned from playing football for accepting skiing endorsements.
However I think the two sports can certainly have a symbiotic relationship.
Right now for a young kid who wants to get into MMA, wrestling is one of the best and most widely available paths they could take. Add to that the pedigree that NCAA or Olympic wins bring to a new MMA fighter and eventual financial benefits of an amateur wrestling career to a professional MMA career cannot be ignored.
by MonkeyCHops on
Jan 6, 2009 8:00 PM EST
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![A little publicity for me today in the Washington City Paper. To wit:
But listening to Kinard, it sounds like management has decided Thomas can transcend his surroundings.
"We thought we’d experiment with some different kinds of shows last year, and of all of them, MMA Nation is the only one that lasted," Kinard says. "I wasn’t aware of anybody else doing [an MMA show]. And [in April] he outperformed our normal weekend ratings by more than double. We started out thinking this has the potential to be a nationally syndicated show, and that’s still our plan. You see MMA all over the place on TV, so why not on the radio?"
I hate to be over the top with the self-promotion, but no one is going to hand me the job and career I'm after. I want to work in MMA full time and the fact is I have to make it happen for myself. Thank you to everyone who has ever shown me an ounce of support towards the pursuit of that dream.
Onward and upward.](http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/54844/1244671916_m_cheap-1_small.jpg)











