Can the UFC Cut Josh Neer? Yes
by Michael Rome on Jan 4, 2009 11:00 PM EST
in MMA News
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PrintSteve Cofield asks if the UFC can cut Josh Neer given their decision not to discipline Quinton "Rampage" Jackson:
The UFC set a precedent with its decision to not discipline Quinton Jackson after his driving rampage in July. Jackson served no penalty and wasn't fined, so what can the UFC do to Josh Neer after his world's wildest police chase act on New Year's Day?
I think there are a few important points to make. First, Quinton Jackson was diagnosed with delirium and was held in a hospital for a number of days because he was unstable. Josh Neer got drunk on New Year's Eve and led police on a wild chase. Terminations for drunk driving are pretty standard in the corporate world, firing Neer would not be a radical decision. Further, there's a degree of foreseeability involved in drunk driving that simply wasn't there for Quinton, I think the two are easily distinguishable morally, and are certainly distinguishable legally.
Second, there is no company in the world I know of that does not have double standards. Image two employees in a fortune 500 company come in drunk to work one day, and the manager to make disciplinary decisions. One employee works in the mailroom, the other is a highly valued employee that brings in significant revenue. There is no way these two situations would be handled the same way. The mailroom worker would likely get fired, while the highly valued employee would get a slap on the wrist. Is it unfair? I suppose. In the real world, not all employees are of equal value. In the UFC, not all fighters are of equal value.
Josh Neer is easily replaceable, and if the UFC decides to cut him they'll face no real backlash besides a couple of blog posts and messageboard threads.
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Driving drunk = a mental breakdown?
What the fuck?
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 4, 2009 11:27 PM EST reply actions
The only question I have is: who is Danzig going to fight if not Neer? Almost every single lightweight at his level is scheduled to fight someone else.
Clementi is fighting Tibau.
Pelligrino is fighting Emerson.
Diaz is fighting Guida.
Lauzon is fighting Franca.
Tavares is fighting Manny.
Sotiroplous is fighting Grice.
Stephens is fighting Escudero.
And most of the europeans like Baron and Bielkheden are reserved for England cards.
There just aren’t many mid-range lightweights left. Maybe Spencer Fisher? Matt Wiman? Aaron Riley?
He’s rumored to be fighting Spencer Fisher in March.
by tylerdurden1 on Jan 5, 2009 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
That rumor was killed by Fisher's camp...
IIRC
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
So the question is...
How much does Roger’s new contract pay him and is it too much to book him on a free Fight Night card?
As Rome said:
Quinton had no drugs and no alcohol in his system… he was diagnosed with delirium.
This is a far cry from someone who went out, partied, got drunk and led police on a wild chase.
If Neer gets cut there is no double standard as you cant compare the 2.
Lastly these are indipendent contractors… they are not employees.
If your plumber gets into legal trouble are you going to stop calling him for work you need done? it depends… same as in this case.
If Neer had won against Nate Diaz could they still release his contract?
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Jan 4, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Athletes in other sports have run-ins with the law quite frequently. The structure of the UFC is quite different than other sports, so I don’t think there is any guiding precedent for what they’ll do if anything. Obviously, there’s nothing that inhibits the UFC from canning Neer. All employees or independent contractors aren’t equal, like it or not.
I don’t believe there is a radical difference between this and Rampage Jackson’s situation if it’s established that Josh Neer has a drinking problem. I’m not saying he does,and I don’t believe that absolves him of responsibility in this instance. I also believe Rampage bears responsibility in his brush with the law. Of course, he’ll face the courts, so they can judge him.
Don’t most stars and athletes claim to have some type of dependency problem and enter rehab/counseling when alcohol or illegal drugs are involved in a criminal matter? I just don’t see the two situations as vastly different except that Rampage is a star and Neer is virtually unknown.
Honeslty I think the UFC would be making a better statement pushing Neer into rehab/counseling than they would be by just dropping his contract but his situation and Rampage’s situation are different on a number of fronts.Then if Rampage becomes a repeat offender more drastic action would be needed in his situation too.
One can make distinctions for sure. I just can’t see those distinctions as being terribly important. Both ran from police and put innocent people in danger. There’s a lot I don’t know about Neer and his situation as it relates to drinking. I’m not advocating any particular punishment for either fighter. The UFC hasn’t really established a protocol. I don’t know if they should or not, or what it should be. For better or worse, both men have to deal with the legal system, and I feel certain both will receive some measure of punishment.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 5, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
First time offender with temporary insanity has a much better chance of getting off with a slap on the wrist than a drunk driving repeat offender who hit a cop car. Because this is Neer’s second DUI offense they are a lot more likely to throw the book at him for this. That is the biggest difference I see here, Josh Neer has already got caught and had his chance to clean up his act but he went out and did it again, Jackson did it once Neer did it twice.
That will be how the courts will see things, this is Rampage first incident and he does have documentation to back his position up, he will end up with a slap on the wrist, particularly if he can show he has taken steps to deal with his mental issues. Josh Neer will go into court as a repeat offender and the assumption will be that he ran because he knew the consequences and was trying to hide his crime. Courts accept mental problems as a acceptable excuse for bad behavior (it’s not a crime to be crazy) but they view DUI as a criminal offense and running because you don’t want to get caught driving drunk is doubly bad. It’s hard to say how courts will decide or to even compare them because they are in different parts of the country under different laws but it wouldn’t be surprising if Rampage got off completely and Neer does actual jail time.
Neer is a meathead. Whatever penalty the law drops on his ass, is not enough, as far as I’m concerned. However, let’s not use this incident to discount Rampage’s behavior. Regardless of what he was eventually “diagnosed” as, delirium is not something that happens to you. It’s something that occurs after one makes several bad choices in a row, like say, not sleeping or eating, and drinking energy drinks for days, and then choosing to drive a monster truck across town. Just because Neer did something worse does not mean Rampage shouldn’t be held responsible for his actions.
I hope Neer doesn’t get cut. I’m not a big fan of companies punishing their workers for what happens when they’re off the job. That being said, there is an argument to be made that Neer is a public figure and therefore represents his company, even when he’s not on the clock.
As for the “standard”, there is no mystery there. Fighters are assets, more so than in most other sports, since a single fighter has the potential to make or break a promotion (imagine what a game changer it would be if Brock Lesnar signed with Affliction). Quinton is a more valuable asset than Neer, therefore he can withstand much more impairment before he becomes a liability. You can’t run a serious business and apply a single standard to all of your employees.
The closest similar precedent I could find for an event like this (recently)..
In the NHL, Mark Bell of the Maple Leafs who had a felony hit and run and a DUI in the same night. The only difference would be that he did not run from the police, but he also hit someone that was in a truck causing some injuries. He was walking around near the scene where it happened.
He pleaded no contest to lesser charges and got 6 months in county jail(would have been 4 years if not for plea bargain). The NHL put him into a “stage 2” substance abuse program and then suspended him for 15 games just to rub it in.
I’d imagine Neer will be doing some jail time, probably lesser sentence as a part of a plea, but if he gets caught with the original charges he could be looking at multiple years in prison.
And what did the NHL do to Sean Avery for pointing out that his ex, Elisha Cuthbert, is getting passed around the league like a donation plate?
I’m not condoning that, but they basically ruined his year, if not career, by massively overreacting.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
That was a pretty strange choice… but then the NHL has had its head up its own ass for years now, so I guess it’s not that surprising.
Agreed, crazy situation.
I just don’t see consistency in how these leagues dole out discipline. What he said was stupid, but pretty harmless, other guy puts peoples lives at risk.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
That’s what you get for not being a gentleman.
In all seriousness, I don’t follow the NHL. Hockey just doesn’t interest me, personally. Did I just imagine this, or did I hear that Avery has had some issues with the NHL before? I could be totally wrong.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 5, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Not a hockey fan either, but I know he has a “bad boy” reputation. But in a league where fighting and so on is ok, it just strikes me as hilarious that he calls a skank a skank and gets basically out out. I think he was only like 20 some games into a new free agent contract as well. Sounds like Dallas had some buyers remorse.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
Honestly...
The Sean Avery incident has turned me off to Gary Bettman’s bullshit antics. Honestly, you literally screwed a guy’s career for saying a bunch of shit about some flousy actress. Yeah, it was unprofessional and all, but it wasn’t Todd Bertuzzi ending someone’s career with a cheap shot.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Jan 5, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for remembering what Bertuzzi did to our Av. There’s a contract on his ass in Denver.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
I’m a fairly old school Quebec Nordiques fan, used to play semi-pro back in the day up in the area, became a huge fan of Sakic over the years, although he was dumb for sticking his hand in a snowblower.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Jan 6, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
He was, but the franchise starting falling apart once it became clear all that time and money we spent researching ways to make Patrick Roy immortal were for naught.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 6, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Rampage apologists seem to be every where these days…
You know one thing I am confident in is sooner or later Rampage “I can talk to God” Jackson will screw up again and I doubt Dana “daddy” White will come to his rescue.
To think he has the nerve to have a religious tattoo on his body but hey who am I to judge?
As for Neer, suspend him for 6 months and make him enter rehab after he serves any jail time (if he does at all).
Dude...
we get it…you don’t like Jackson. Learn a new song already…
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying that Rampage shouldn’t incur some discipline for his actions, but it appears that it wasn’t a substance problem and he he seems to be doing the right things. We don;t know what kind of therapy, medication, etc. he may be doing to “get right”.
Neer went out, partied it up and then endangered many lives (not that Rampage didn’t). the thing is, I could give him another chance if it was just the DUI, but the evading police part is huge, imo. Then factor in this is his second DUI and it clearly shows that either he is an idiot or that he has no regard for the law or its consequences. And sorry, but that BS apology from him just made things worse to me.
Cut him and cut him now. These guys have got to know the consequences of their actions, and if the worst to come out of this is him losing his job, then he got off damn easy.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
Well, I don’t know what the UFC should do or shouldn’t do in regard to punishment. I just can’t honestly say that Neer is just an idiot that deserves to be cut, and Rampage bears little to no responsibility in his situation. Rampage could have been suffering from great emotional distress that was exacerbated by his own actions (i.e. not eating or sleeping, tanking up on energy drinks). It’s possible that Neer has a problem with alcohol. I just don’t know. That defense, whether valid or not, has been utilized numerous times. In both cases the state of mind of either man can’t be objectively measured. But if the UFC decides to cut Neer, I really can’t fault them. That’s their prerogative.
Don’t misunderstand me. I strongly believe that both individuals deserve punishment by the courts. The severity of said punishment isn’t for me to decide. I know that if someone close to me were injured due to the actions of either Rampage or Neer, I would probably be clamoring for some significant consequences. Luckily, I don’t believe anyone was badly hurt as a result of these incidents – to my knowledge, anyway.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 5, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
The amazing thing..
to me is that there are a lot of people speaking about this as though it is ONLY a drunk driving case (not to minimize drunk driving which I’ve covered my feelings about recently). This is a case where he was popped for a SECOND time. This is a case where he hit other cars and ran. This is a case where he ran from the police at speeds in excess of 100 MPH. This is a case where the police attempted to “PIT” him, it failed and he continued to try to elude them. This is a case where it took spike strips to stop him.
Maybe I’m taking the situation a little too personally but I’ll be disappointed if he ever fights for the UFC again. Neer is the kind of person who takes chances that very often result in taking loved ones away from families and to play it off as a “mistake” is bullshit.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 5, 2009 12:16 PM EST reply actions
I really don’t see people minimizing Neer’s dangerous and unlawful acts. The fact is that the UFC doesn’t have any kind of protocol when it comes to disciplining fighters. Maybe, you give a guy some leeway on the first offense as in Jackson’s case and then wash your hands of the guy if he repeats. Frankly, I don’t pretend to know what is best. In the end, the UFC can pretty much do what it wants in this regard. I don’t feel confident in passing judgment on Neer at this juncture, because I don’t know enough about what lead him to do what he did for a second time. I’m not uniquely qualified to judge anyway.
While I really like Rampage, I can’t just say he deserves a mulligan. I don’t accept that Rampage was sick and Neer is just stupid, and that’s the end of it. Both men are at fault. You can determine whose transgression was worse. Once again, I just don’t see the vast difference that others seem to see.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 5, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going to go with going fucking crazy after fasting for days (and thinking about God) v going fucking crazy after getting shitty at a bar as a fairly substantial difference. Also, Rampage was hardly hauling ass like Neer – didn’t anyone here watch 60 Minutes last night? With the prosecutor in NY who got a guy for 2nd degree murder after he killed a little girl while driving drunk? I don’t agree with what she’s doing, but if it worries you, there’s an easy solution: don’t fucking drive drunk.
I really, really hate drunk driving. That’s why I see a big diff here.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 5, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not that drunk driving is acceptable, because it’s not. Implying that Rampage’s actions were unavoidable is inaccurate. I’m not saying that what Jackson did is worse that what Neer did. I’m not saying they’re necessarily equivalent. Everyone is free to make up their own minds. In both instances innocent people could have been hurt or killed due to the actions of someone else. Most people refrain from getting drunk, driving, and running from the police. Similarly, people face emotional turmoil without engaging in behavior that leads to delirium and ultimately a police chase.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 5, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Rampage made some poor decisions but he didn’t decide to go on a crazy police chase, Josh Neer made a consious choice to go get drunk and then made a consious choice to get into his car and drive even though he knew exactly what the consequences were because he is a repeat offender, he then made the decision to run after striking a cop car.
Also
The question of foreseeability:
Could Rampage predict what would happen to him? Probably not.
Could Neer predict what would happen to him? Absolutely yes.
Being a repeat offender it would be impossible for Neer to claim ignorance and it will be assumed that the reason he ran was because he was trying to avoid punishment.
Absolutely
And it isn’t like this is the 1950’s where people can claim that they didn’t know drunk driving was a bad thing… Even a first-time offender knows its wrong. Twice is just out and out criminal.
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