For BJ Penn and GSP, Everything Turns on the Takedown
by Michael Rome on Jan 30, 2009 9:11 AM EST
in MMA News
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PrintI've tried to envision BJ Penn vs. Georges St. Pierre many times, and every time I think about it I imagine a relentless GSP taking down BJ over and over, delivering bombs from the top, and wearing BJ down over time. However, if GSP simply can't take Penn down, everything changes. If he can't he'll have to rely on kicks to keep Penn at a distance, and I'm not sure if that'll be enough. However, it's hard to believe a guy that can take down Josh Koscheck, Matt Hughes, Sean Sherk, Jon Fitch, and (!) Rashad Evans at will won't be able to take down BJ Penn. At the same time though, this GIF from Fightlinker is a nice reminder of why BJ is such a uniquely hard guy to take down:
BJ Penn was on the Jim Rome show today, and in the midst of delivering an awesome interview, he dropped the following revealing quote:
You know how the UFC is...the guy on top is usually gonna be getting those rounds. I can't let too many rounds slip away before I find myself in a deep hole, and having to chase that knockout. If I end up on my back, I am going to go for move after move after move.
As this fight creeps closer, I really am starting to lean back towards BJ Penn. Not that I'm picking him, but I really think people are selling his tremendous skillset short going into this fight.
If I was setting out a game plan for GSP, I'd probably recommend using leg kicks to slow BJ down and diminish his punching power, as well as trying to clinch a lot and grind it out against the fence to wear BJ down. It should be interesting to see what the gameplan actually is.
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I can’t count how many times I’ve watched this gif just trying to comprehend what I’m seeing.
His balance is so far beyond anything I will ever have that my brain can barely accept it.
by Simco on Jan 30, 2009 4:38 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
It reminds me of when you hold up a cat and it magically wriggles around to land on its feet.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 30, 2009 5:07 AM EST up reply actions
It’s like a chicken wing, his leg.
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Jan 30, 2009 5:09 AM EST up reply actions
Not to hate on BJ on this cause its still amazing
But, (I think thats McCully), actually helps him keep his balance in the air by driving through and righting him midflight instead of pulling his center of gravity close and slamming the shit outta him. Of course its practice and McCully would be a friggin idiot to do that. Don’t expect GSP to do him the same favor.
Still amazing though.
Gimme 1 Round!
i think he was trying to grab a hold of bj’s other leg to do what you said and slam him, but he couldnt.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 30, 2009 6:01 AM EST up reply actions
It's bad wrestling, no matter hwo you look at it.
He is obviously going for a double leg, but he’s flailing his left hand across BJ’s body to try to ‘grasp’ at the far leg. That’s just idiotic. Instinct tells you to tuck your head across your opponent’s body, pull the knee to the upper half of your chest, stop driving forward, and slam him back to the right with a hard single leg takedown.
Is it as good for establishing position as a good ol’ double-leg slam? Of course not, but it doesn’t let the fight get out of hand, and there’s no wasted energy since a takedown is achieved. The fight goes to the ground, which is clearly what the opponent didn’t want to happen.
ALL of that said, it is remarkable balance displayed. Being a tall guy, I was always able to do this when a guy would pick me up with less-than-perfect technique. Height helps these situations, and it doesn’t appear that it’s really an advantage for BJ here. I hate him, but he is exceptionally talented.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
This was exactly my sentiments
from somebody that knows wrestling technique better than I do.
Gimme 1 Round!
I have no wrestling training but that looks like he should have stuck/driven to BJ’s hips instead of dropping down. He would’ve pressed him up against the cage without letting him get his base.
The problem with that
is that BJ’s weight was too far forward for him to drive all the way to the fence for a rebound/spring-assisted takedown. He (McCully?) needed to re-set his position before even considering another drive (the easiest way to do this is to replace the first left-foot cross-over step in the .gif with a wider, 300 degree-ish step to re-gain his balance and leverage), but the problem with that approach is that it gives BJ time to sprawl and drive in a whizzer (which is actually what it appears BJ is trying to do prior to his cat-like response to gravity). If BJ accomplishes that, McCully’s essentially lost his hard-earned dominant position, as well as opened himself to a few striking opportunities before he can effectively disengage.
And really, he didn’t drop down. BJ was applying as much weight/leverage to his head as was possible, and that caused McCully to lose his center of gravity. Once the CG was gone, it was game over for the double-leg takedown attempt.
A double-leg takedown is a viciously effective weapon for establishing positional dominance, but you have to hit it hard, fast and accurately. If you can’t execute it in one fluid motion, you’re going to end up in situations like this one. Generally speaking, your opponent isn’t going to be able to salvage the position this well, but it’s still not something you want to subject yourself to and the guy attempting the takedown.
I’ve always wondered why single-leg takedowns, and running the pipe doesn’t get attempted more often. It’s an easy way to control the takedown, and end up in full guard automatically. The double-leg is just too sexy, I guess.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Jan 30, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
as the guy attempting the takedown – end of para. 3.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Jan 30, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Machida vs. Penn
I recently re-watched the Machida vs. Penn fight and was quite impressed by how Penn performed, even at 187 lb (Machida was 215 lb). BJ could have easily won that fight. According to Fightmetric, Penn should have actually won 29-28. As a Machida fan, that is the one fight I am embarrassed to talk about. And as a GSP fan, I am worried BJ might actually pull the upset. Even though I dislike Penn as a person, he is still a very respectable fighter.
by Flying Gogoplata on Jan 30, 2009 5:22 AM EST reply actions
Awesome gif – BJ needs to be everything he is in order to pull off something like that, practice or no practice.
Still – you think GSP hasn’t at least been told about that gif. True, it is nigh on impossible to find a training partner who can replicate that but someone at Jackson’s camp has been thinking about that specific situation. Bet your bottom dollar GSP will not be doing BJ any favors – if that was GSP with that single leg, Penn would have found himself looking at the ceiling lights.
It’s very possible to sell BJ’s skill set short – but then again, it’s not impossible that someone would sell GSP’s skill set short. No one in their right mind should think that either of them will come into the fight anything short of fully committed.
GSP by epicness.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jan 30, 2009 5:26 AM EST reply actions
I think you are severely underestimating GSP’s stand up, he will pick Penn apart with punches and kicks and once he’s worn him down he’ll then proceed to GNP him into oblivion.
like he did the first time?
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 30, 2009 6:02 AM EST up reply actions
he actually
did throw a decent amount of leg kicks in their first fight. especially compared to how many BJ threw
all you gotta do is...
Radio.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 30, 2009 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
You know, just yesterday I was thinking back to there first fight.
When I watched it, I told my buddy “this is probably a battle between the guys with the best takedown defense in all of MMA.” GSP the proceeded to take Penn down immediately.
And that got me to thinking: is BJ’s conditioning going to be at the level it needs to be to defend GSPs ridiculously awesome takedown? I like to think that it will be, but none of us know for sure yet. If BJ can defend the takedown throughout the fight, and as long as he’s fresh he will be able to, then I think BJ has a really good chance to win on the feet. I don’t think it’s as obvious an advantage as some folks would say or that you’d figure having watched the first fight. Then again, maybe it is.
What I don’t see is BJ taking GSP down. I think GSP has the best takedown defense in MMA due to a combination of great wrestling and superb conditioning. Just look at his takedown defense against Koscheck, it’s remarkable. With BJ giving up a good 15+ pounds at the time of the fight, I don’t see BJ using skill alone to get St. Pierre to the ground (short of a knockdown) and even if his gas tank has improved tremendously, I don’t know that BJ will be able to wear GSP down enough to facilitate him being taken down.
With all of that in mind, I think I’m really coming around on BJ. There’s no denying what BJ did to GSP in the first round of their first fight; it was a mauling. If BJ can keep that attack up over the course of two rounds, I don’t see how GSP can win. But, will BJ’s cardio be enough, the question that can’t be asked enough. The way I see it, his cardio should be very good, considering he’s coming off three fights down at 155lbs., where high paced fighting is even more prevelant than it is at 170lbs. It’s not a perfect comparison, but don’t think for a second that if BJ had gassed in three round against Sean Sherk that Sherk wouldn’t have planted BJ and rode him to a potential victory.
The size difference is my great concern, because all things being equal, superior size/strength will win out, which is just one reason why it’s easy to pick GSP. However, in my mind, I feel like BJ’s cardio has probably improved to the level that is nullifies GSPs improved wrestling. At the very least, I feel that will be true for the first three rounds. That will turn the first half of the fight, at least, into a stand up affair, which, again, favors BJ. Although, I say that realizing GSP may kick the hell out of BJ’s legs, a dynamic BJ’s striking lacks. I still think BJ has the advantage on the feet (how can you not after watching their first fight?), but at the same time, GSP is obviously skilled there as well.
Ultimately, I see this fight ending similarly to the Sean Sherk fight, with BJ winning via TKO inside of three rounds. A lot of that is wishful thinking, I’ll admit, but I do believe this is a perfectly plausible outcome for all of the reasons outlined above.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Jan 30, 2009 8:34 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Wow
Thats pretty damn impressive but training and the real fight are 2 different things. I just hope we get a good fight. Of course I want GSP to win because I like him more and I dont really want BJ tying up both belts, but if BJ wins in a great fight then I’ll be cool with it. I just dont want an Arlovski/Fedor or Serra/GSP finish. I want it to be decisive with no doubt who the clear winner was.
BJ’s comments sound more unsure that he can win the early rounds than I’d expect. Even with BJ’s amazing BJJ, he doesn’t want to be on his back often in the early rounds. If he loses those rounds, he’s not going to win the later ones. The more TDs, TD attempts, GNP, clinch, etc that GSP can use, the more successful he will be.
repost, yes, but I'd like some feedback
I’ll say that I am a BJ fan. However, I do think that he is an underdog in this fight, with my main concerns being the size difference and cardio concerns, as in how will BJ continue to get to his feet from repeated takedowns from GSP who will outweigh him by 10-15 lbs. on the night of the fight.
With that said, I think it’s difficult to gauge how much improvement has taken place in Penn’s fighting abilities his last three fights. He toyed with Jens, and took his time taking apart Joe Daddy after the initial blitz. As for Shrek, BJ was content to stand with him, his one takedown attempt aside, and pick him apart before going with the flying knee. In these three fights, post "attitude, training change" we have not seen BJ with his back against the wall or in any real trouble. He also has not had to take any chances to win these three fight.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we all know how much GSP has evolved in his fights, whereas Penn has largely not had to show anything new, cardio in the 4th and 5th, takedown defense, etc.
If Penn has added to his game, developed his groundgame further, added more subs, etc., GSP is the fighter that will bring these out or show that Penn has not evolved in his technique since their first fight, and if that is the case, Penn will lose.
Yes GSP went to war with Fitch. It is not Penn’s fault that he did not have to step out of his comfort zone or show us improvements to beat his last three opponents. Penn doesn’t take a whole lot of chances in these fights.
Saturday will answer a lot of questions. Is Penn talk, or will fighting GSP bring out the "new improved" Penn, one who can avoid his takedowns and not gas, with maybe a few new wrinkles in his striking and sub game to boot.
Just my thoughts.
I agree with you
For me – the takedown is highly important but the most important factor is still whether or not BJ Penn will gas. If he has the cardio to go five hard rounds I can see him winning. My guess is he can’t and GSP will win a decision or with a TKO late in round 3 or early round 4.
GSP is not Couture, the clinch against the fence is not where Georges wants to be. Loses all his reach and his kicks, while BJ is good on the inside. I think BJ will bust GSP up against the fence. I hope BJ comes out and overwhelms Pierre in the first round. I think if he just attacks GSP, he could swarm him and put Georges in a position to tap or have the ref stop the fight. BJ doesnt need to let GSP settle into his gameplan. A long fight slowly wearing BJ down with size and strength.
BJ is def going to try and swarm him IMO. I think that’s his gameplan. That’s what Serra did against him. He was all over him and GSP was overwhelmed early and often.
Trying to swarm GSP will be a tactic that finds Penn on his back early and often. That makes GSP’s TDs even easier if you come at him.
I doubt Penn tries that tactic. He was very methodical against Sherk, establishing the jab, preparing to defend TDs (Sherk attempted 1 the whole fight), and settling in to box. GSP can’t let Penn get into that rhythm.
BJ sure loves to talk. Usually the guy that has to talk that much leading up to a fight is a bit worried.
GSP is going to run over BJ like a train.
Agreed!
But not like any train, like the COLE TRAIN!!!! WOOOOHHH! YEAH BRING IT ON SUCKA!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb33zXBY5DA
:P
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 30, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
+1
For the Gears reference. It still bums me that the end of 2 didn’t have a Cole Train rap.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jan 30, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
I know what was that all about? Maybe The Mighty Rasta was asking for too much money? lol
Hes like gots to get paid sucka! This train is a smooth ride…
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 30, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Is that Penn's usually pre-fight style?
To me it comes across as trying to be self-reassuring, as if he is lacking confidence. But UFC Primetime has given each of these guys alot more face time with the camera and that may just be his style.
Regardless, it hasn’t really endeared him to me and I feel ALOT more impressed with GSP as a person AND a fighter…whichi is saying alot.
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