Why BJ Penn vs. Georges St. Pierre II Is the Fight of Our Era
by Luke Thomas on Jan 29, 2009 9:52 AM EST
in MMA News
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I make the case over at Sherdog.com:
What is truly noteworthy about this contest, however, is not any one particular element to fight sport, although each of those components certainly matters. What should be underscored here, though, is that this fight is more than the sum of its parts. What truly defines this contest is that it represents not just where we are with MMA but how well MMA is doing it. In other words, the special features of the fight not only turn the contest into a historical MMA bookmark, but the fight acts as the quintessential historical benchmark of this unprecedented era in MMA.
The growth and evolution of MMA is well documented, but heretofore the sport has lacked a capstone or bookend to encapsulate what this period signifies. There has yet to be a fight that perfectly represents this era and the best it offers. Enter: Penn vs. St. Pierre 2.
Our era is where true athletes emerged, infrastructure was created, sanctioning was achieved, organizations grew, titles gained significance, rivalries were spawned, fans were attracted and machinery developed. Whatever one wants to call this stage in the sport’s evolution, there can be no denying that what truly marks the present period and makes it unique is the development of a real sport and the machinery that moves the sport forward.
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Never understood this
Can someone explain this – why is there a British flag in the poster on BJ’s side?
http://www.google.com/search?q=hawaiian+flag&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
My big problem with commentary like this...
is that while GSP v Penn II has the potential to be a great fight, it is how the fight plays out that will determine if it is really a “Fight for the Ages”.
On the Penn flag, the State Flag of Hawaii has a piece that includes the British flag because of the island chains history with the British Empire.
Good or bad...
the significance of the fight remains. That’s the point. It is significant because of what it represents…not how it goes down.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 29, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
oh...
and it’s gonna be fuckin’ good.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 29, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
NO!
It will be great! SO GREAT! AMAZINGLY GREAT!
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 29, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Anticipation is good but..
Perhaps this thread may have been better off to replace the “is” with “could be”. Ask yourself how many times you’ve watched a main event that’s hyped up to astronomical proportions only to watch undercard and non-televised matches deliver more intense and exciting fights?
This is not to say the key elements aren’t in the fight to live up to expectation but how do we know until its over whether or it is significant or the fight of an era? Both of these fighters are at the top of the game with the ability to end a fight quickly which may actually end up being anti climactic.
Either I for one and glad we have the opportunity to see it no matter how it plays out.
The entire point of this post
is about this fight being the biggest of our era & has nothing to do with the outcome. Regardless of how it actually plays out, it is set up as the single biggest fight of this era & does not depend on a great outcome (which would be great) to affirm that.
Accidental illegal knee in first round leads to No Contest. That outcome would ruin it.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 29, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
I get the point, but I think a no contest would diminish it unlike any other outcome could.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 29, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Significance
I just read Luke’s full post on Sherdog (great article) and based on this conversation I must agree on the match up itself’s significance as opposed to the outcome’s and I am glad you pointed it out.
I will say in light of that knowledge I hope, as a relatively informed fan, that the fight itself does live up to its inherent significance and do that justice simply because this fight has appeal to the uninformed masses caught up in the hype and stands to increase the sport’s viability / credibility with legendary match ups like this (hopefully resulting in legendary performances like some of the wars boxing provided way back when).
Significance...
is possible in 2 different ways:
1) Historic nature of the match-up. See: Penn/GSP II
or
2) Quality of the fight itself. See: TUF 1 Finale
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 29, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously, if one more person comments about what I wrote without understanding what I wrote I’m going to have a conniption fit. Short of a disaster, the outcome of the fight isn’t the issue or at all what I am arguing.
Thanks dnevil001 and Brent.
What you wrote can’t be argued. That only leaves attacking the point you didn’t make.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 29, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
The point he made...
was how far MMA has come in a few short years. PPV buys are at an all time high even when the economy is bad. Our (being hardcore MMA fans) quality of fights – card in card out – are superb. EVERY TIME almost. The fact that a big portion of us spend part of their work day talking about MMA is a victory in itself.
This fight just marks how far we’ve come.
This fight, like Luke said, marks an era of MMA that will be remembered for years to come – as the era that cemented MMA as a legitimate proffesional sports organization.
That’s the point… and I agree with it totally.
Um, I know.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 29, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
I really worry that this fight cannot possibly live up to the hype and might well end up being very disappointing. I hope not. But the hype train is going pretty fast right about now — justifiably so, but making it tough to live up to.
I think people might be missing my point a little. I certainly expect a good fight, but it’s not like I am expecting Manhoef vs. Cyborg levels of action. It’s more about what this fight represents and means for this generation of fans than it is rock ’em sock ’em robots.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 29, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
That’s my biggest worry now, the fight ends on an injury or technicality leaving a bad taste. There is so much on the line that I’m not sure it can live up to expectations or.. when people expect something it tends to go the other way. I sure hope I’m worrying for nothing.
has there been any ESPN coverage for this event?
after they stepped up the coverage for couture/lesnar, i think alot of people expected them to repeat the process with future big events (i.e. this one). i haven’t seen anything. maybe it’s too early in the week?
MMA Live is covering it live on location.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 29, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
thanks.
seemed like the couture/lesnar coverage was much more than that (lots of in-studio stuff), but i suppose anything is better than nothing at all. do you know if they’ll do the live online broadcast after the event? really enjoyed that after 91.
The Case for BJ Penn
Quote by Matt Hughes:
"This weekend is the GSP/BJ rematch, I’ve been doing a lot of interviews on this topic, since I’ve fought both of them (lost to both and beat them both). I think this fight comes down to a lot of things, I think GSP will have a slight wrestling advantage and I think BJ will have a submission advantage. GSP might be a little quicker with his punches; but I believe BJ has more power and has a stronger chin. If BJ shows up in good shape, I think he can get his hand raised at the end. If BJ doesn’t show up in good shape, then he might have some problems."
BJ Penn is called the Prodigy for a reason. When he’s motivated and well trained, he is an unstoppable force. Unfortunately for Penn, he often neglects proper training because he has certain gifted ability. In his third MMA fight against Caol Uno was already a legend in the sport by the time Penn fought him, Penn knocked him out in 11 seconds. On the rematch, Penn allowed his cardio to slow him down in the last few rounds and the fight was called a draw. It was an awful fight. Once again, Penn once again allowed his conditioning to falter when he fought Jens Pulver to a 5 decision loss when markedly slowed down in the last few rounds. This was a fight that he was winning early, a tune that keeps being replayed throughout his career.
After schooling Gomi in anothe organization, Penn was given a title fight at 170, a weight class that was beyond where he usually fights at. Penn needed a new challenge. When faced with difficult challenges against unstoppable opponents, Penn always performs at his best. It was supposed to be a squash match, one that would showcase the unstoppable Matt Hughes at a time when nobody could touch him. A motivated Penn obliterated Hughes so badly that Hughes was shell shocked after the fight. Matt Hughes did not even lay a hand on him as Penn put on a clinic that no one thought was possible.
After he won the belt, Penn had a contract disagreement with the UFC because he was signed on for only one fight. The UFC did not think he could possibly beat Matt Hughes, nobody did. He went to Japan where he beat two Gracies (out of his weight class) and losing a decision to Lyoto Machida who was simply too big for Penn. After he came back to the UFC, he fought Hughes and GSP, losing both fights due to conditioning. Winning early and losing late was still the theme with the undisciplined Penn.
Finally, a rededicated Penn has now made a comeback by running through three tough fighters. He beat Pulver by playing with him, foregoing an easy submission early in the first to pummel him some more in the 2nd. He destroyed Stevenson in a bloody mess. And he put on a boxing clinic on Sherk, the first time Penn embraced some sort of a semblance of a game plan.
Hughes is correct in that a motivated and well conditioned Penn is an unstoppable force. However, which Penn will show up? The one who destroyed Hughes at his prime or the one who faltered in the 3rd round against Hughes? I believe the former because this is the Penn that will show up for a fight for the ages.
by cyph on Jan 29, 2009 11:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Saying Penn is indestructible if he’s simply in shape is an oversimplification and not giving St. Pierre the credit he deserves. St. Pierre is not only a big 170 pound fighter, he’s the best at that weight class in the history of the sport. UFC Countdown has highlighted the fact that St. Pierre prepares as well as anyone. Penn’s improved dedication is a factor, but St. Pierre is still making himself a better fighter. I don’t think the same is true of Penn, at least to the same extent.
by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 29, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry- I meant Primetime, not Countdown.
by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 29, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
GSP is a gifted athlete. He works hard at it but has mental lapses. Penn has proven that his only weakness is his cardio. I am prepared to see GSP win this one, but he’s going to have to grind out a win against a very tough opponent. Penn has the ability to stop fights at a moment’s notice. I think that GSP winning is a very real possibility, but many GSP fans are not prepared for the very real ability of Penn destroying a very game GSP.
Saying Penn is a more naturally talented fighter is legitimate, but St. Pierre’s “mental weakness” has always been greatly overstated. He has said that his head wasn’t in the right place for the first Serra fight and that he wouldn’t make the same mistake again. His recent performances would seem to confirm that he isn’t. And how is not training properly for a fight not considered a mental lapse. It would seem to me that Penn has been guilty of the same thing people have found fault with St. Pierre for.
For the record, I don’t even consider myself a St. Pierre “fan,” per se, I just strongly disagree with the notion that all Penn has to do is show up in shape.
by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 29, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
coming from a man who has faught both 2 times
I think that he would know if it’s an oversimplification or not….
Can you point me to the quote where Matt Hughes said that “a well conditioned Penn is an unstoppable force”?
Penn isn’t unstoppable because his body doesn’t allow him to have the conditioning that other elite fighters have. For all his other gifts, and he has a ton, this is a gift he lacks.
by Hardcharger on Jan 29, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
his body doesn’t allow him to have the conditioning that other elite fighters have
Um, didn’t they work hard to condition that conditioned body?
Do we really think GSP is naturally in the condition he’s in? Was Randy Couture born in shape or did he train his entire life* to be in peak physical condition?
They also train very very smart.
- - this clearly doesn’t count his time filming Scorpion Mummy.
You’re missing the point. Every person has their natural physical limits, no matter the work they put in. It’s quite possible that even IF Penn worked as hard as GSP, he’d never have the same level of conditioning at WW. Everyone’s peak is different.
Just because GSP has trained really hard for the last 3 years since his first fight with BJ, I don’t believe he’s trained himself to have the same flexibility as Penn, because it’s not possible for GSP given the genetic cards he was dealt.
Matt Hughes hates GSP. All Miletich guys do.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 29, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
Anyone considered that its not his condition so much as that he just has shitty cardio, and training only varies that from very bad to somewhat bad?
The two times hes gone 5 rounds he went 0-1-1. The only time he finished a fight in the last round was with Gomi in 2004. Other than that he has never finished a fight in the last round, ever!
It’s like I said when this fight was first announced; Penn has to win in the first two rounds. If it goes past that, he will lose. Penn’s weakness is his cardio, and its not just him needing to get his training together; he just has relatively weak cardio and if GSP can fend him off while hes fresh, its in the bag.
Frankly, it doesn’t seem like he’s vastly altered his training regimen – of course this is only based on what we’ve been shown on “the GSP Show”, er…UFC Primetime. But he’s not bringing in training partners of the calibre of GSP or even the calibre of people GSP trains with – McCully, Grove, Mandaloniz and a bunch of local guys? For “the biggest fight in UFC history”, are you kidding me?
He’s an exceptionally talented fighter but it seems like the old dog isn’t learning any new tricks.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Yeah, in watching primteime it looked like Penn’s training consisted of a few go hard type days, followed by a group of hawaiin guys hanging out and talking shit. GSP, was driving back and forth to multiple discipline training sites. Take that for what its worth I guess..
To be fair, BJ said that’s how he always has trained. He also says he’s always taken a vacation 3 weeks out from the fight.
However, he also says that anyone not in his training camp who questions his training over the past 10 years doesn’t know what they’re talking about. I guess his excuses also go out the window in that case.
I can’t help to think what a guy like GSP would be like if he had BJ’s natural ability. That would be scary.
I think it’s a total disservice to imply GSP’s “natural ability” pales compared to Penn’s. These are both exceptional, exceptional athletes. One needs only look at the GSP’s gaining of the BJJ blackbelt or his insane ability to walk into training with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team and become a world class wrestler in a matter of a few years.
They’re both athletes of the highest caliber and frankly, GSP is scary.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Look, I’m a huge GSP fan trust me. But if he trained as lackodasical as BJ did, he would have a few more losses than BJ if you comapre the 2, What seperated the 2 in my mind is that GSP has more work ethic than BJ. They are both supremly talented but when you look at Penn, he’s just so naturally gifted with his flexibility, etc. God given stuff.
Gotcha.
Agreed. I just think sometimes people equate GSP’s success and talent to his insane work ethic, moreso than his immensely freakish abilities.
I guess it’s a case of semantics, in that BJ is just awesome because he’s freakin’ awesome and GSP has insane athletic ability that lends itself to absorbing and excelling at so many things so quickly and at the highest of levels, due to his arduous training.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Man, with all these posts on how important this fight is, I’m gonna cry when GSP does his trademark nut-kick 3 times in round one and loses by disqualification.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Jan 29, 2009 12:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Ultimately, this post is hyperbole in sheeps clothing.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
And this comment is nonsense is nonsense’s clothing.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 29, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"nonsense in nonsense’s clothing"
I think you may have just stumbled on Affliction’s new t-shirt slogan.
by Day Man on Jan 29, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right, and again with the nonsense. You make no point except to be a dickhead and then when I call that fact out I’m committing acts of hyperbole? Please.
lol... ok, ok
I might be guilty of the exact same thing that this post is guilty of.
What was written on THIS site gives absolutely no evidence in support of the grandeous proclamations being made. When I follow the link to the other site, I am given only two pieces of supporting data: both are top their divisions, both are on p4p lists. Isn’t that like saying that if GSP were to fight Fedor, then that would be worthy of the same treatment? OR Penn vs. Torres? If there is some difference here, it’s not apparent based on this post.
I am a little surprised that offense is being taken at my use of ‘hyperbole’. After all, in essence, that’s what this post is really playing too: all the dissention that exists between the good GSP, and the bad BJ PENN. It’s a little arbitrary, it’s a little contrived, it makes for good business, and it’s caught the fancy of one editor at B.E.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
I’m not sure that you have grasped the point at all. Are you OK?
by donkeypunch on Jan 29, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Back to the post
Once again we jump over to who will win – which is a natural thing when talking about this fight.
The original post is why this fight is so significant. The last time a fight was hyped this much (if one ever has)would be Brock/Couture. Personally, I was glad to see Randy back and that the HW title was that much closer to being unified, but I didn’t think it was a fight for the ages like this one. This fight does mark how far MMA has come – especially the UFC (I know, I’m a fan-boy). For an organiztion to be able to put on great fight cards almost every month shows just how many quality professional MMA fighters are out there. And to be able to put this match together along with many other great fights is fucking fantastic. MMA has landed on the moon.
by donkeypunch on Jan 29, 2009 12:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Thank you for understanding what I was arguing.
by Luke Thomas on Jan 29, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn’t say it any better, so I won’t even try.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jan 29, 2009 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I also think it speaks volumes about how far the sport has come when you have 1,000,000+ PPV buys on 3 consecutive events – amidst a bonified recession! UFC 94 will surely be the 4th
Not to nitpick, but if this were true it means that UFC 93 (Franklin v. Hendo) did over one million PPV buys. And unless someone has been feeding me medication I don’t know about, this is not the case.
Even still, back to back one million (plus) PPV buys is pretty damn impressive.
I cannot see any way
Penn does not come into this fight in great shape. That being said, he may gas before GSP does but I will not take that as him slacking just a compliment to GSP. There is no way BJ is not in top form for this fight as there is no way he is going to waste this opportunity. I am a huge mark for both of these guys & honestly I cannot figure who will or even who I want to win. I am simply hoping for a 5rd effing bloodbath.
The probability of this fight being a barn burner is very High…
Niether guy has been in a lackluster or boring fight within the past 2 or so years.
Neither guy will be affected by the limelight as both have been in this situation before.
The tension in the air during this fight will be through the roof until BJ gasses or until BJ wins.
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