Another Reason Why BJ Penn vs. Georges St. Pierre 2 Is So Monumental
by Luke Thomas on Jan 27, 2009 12:38 PM EST
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Dave Meltzer nails itIt is the first time in UFC history that, not just champions, but dominant champions who are on that night in their physical primes and the best in the world in their respective weight classes, will face off.
The winner is basically guaranteed a spot in the UFC Hall of Fame. The loser, well, there’s a good chance he’s ending up there as well, but may have to take a longer road to get there.
UFC president Dana White is predicting the most pay-per-view buys for any event in the sport’s history. The company is coming off, bad economy and all, two of its three biggest pay–per-view events in history with the Nov. 15 Brock Lesnar vs. Randy Couture fight, and the Dec. 27 show which featured three main events, so momentum appears on their side.
...
But there are many similarities. St. Pierre (17-2) is ranked No. 3 in the world in the Yahoo! Sports pound-for-pound rankings. Penn (13-4-1), is ranked No. 4.
With all due respect to Anderson Silva and Fedor Emelianenko, neither have beaten a fighter with the all-around skill level that the victor here will be able to claim.
Emphasis mine. Even if we grant that the well-roundedness that accompanies upper echelon fighters is more acute in the welterweight and lightweight divisions, we aren't really left with a meaningful alternative for the larger fighters. Whether by hook or by crook, it's true: neither Fedor nor Silva will be able to claim they defeated an opponent so crafty, so talented, so athletic, so well-rounded and so difficult.
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It’s great to see that someone is recognizing that Fedor and Silva have not had to face the caliber of opponent that GSP/Penn will in facing each other. It goes without saying that this is going to be a monumental fight. The only worry I have is that it has been hyped so much that it really is being set up to fail. If the fight becomes a stalemate with two equally matched fighters afraid to pull the trigger for fear of making a mistake, or a super quick KO or submission happens, people could be disappointed. Ideally we all want to see these two go at it to the point where their bloody carcasses are pulled out of the ring after running the gamut of striking, clinch, and groundwork. (Go GSP by the way!! hehe)
One thing I haven’t seen much discussion on is where does GSP go if he loses? Obviously if Penn loses he scampers back to rule the lightweight division and GSP goes on to tasty matches with Thiago Alves and potentially Anderson Silva. All will be right in the world. If Penn wins he will hold two belts hostage to only get up for the fights that interest him. GSP? You could arguably say that he’d smoke pretty much anyone not named Thiago Alves in the Welterweights right now. Does he move to middleweight for a change of scenery? Become a movie star? Continue smashing unsuspecting welterweights?
If GSP loses, I imagine that there will be a rubber match between the two. The time in between these two fights would probably be determined by exactly how the fight goes down (if he gets flash Ko’d=sooner, dominated and annihilated in three or four rounds=later) and just how backlogged the two divisions get.
And that fight would be huge again.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jan 27, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with the sentiment in the article
depending on how the fight plays out, whoever wins should rightfully step past Silva and Fedor to be considered the P4P best.
“depending on how the fight plays out”
Meaning that if the fighter you pick wins? :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Meaning
that as long as it is a good length and well contended. If one of the figher, by some stretch of the imagnation, is less than competitive for 2 rounds and easily finished it will be much less of a boost for the winner than a long hard fought battle for 4 rounds with a finish or a UD on a close card.
Clear enough for you, or would you like to read more into my statement?
I thought it was funny.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Let’s have a big hand for Richard: my hetero-life-mate. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I think when BJ wins he should take on Fedor at 185.
What?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Jan 27, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well.....
Faber is great and all but I am afraid that BJ Penn would make Faber look like an amateur. I can’t even imagine Faber being any kind of threat to BJ in any facet of the fight game.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
Faber
is way underrated. He got caught getting cocky. BJ has had his nonchalant moments where his attention was not 100% on fighting.
BJ is big enough to be credible at 170 and even 185. Faber is not.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Faber could probably get down to 135 if he were so inclined.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
If memory serves he doesn’t cut much weight to get to 145 (if any), so in some senses he’s already fighting up a weight class (meaning a jump to 155 would be similar to BJ jumping to 185; that’s not to say BJ wouldn’t be more successful at 185 than Faber would at 155, just that this is the comparison that should be made).
I really hope Faber can dominate 145 again, as it sets up a potential superfight between him and Torres—which is one of the few fights comparable to GSP v. Penn II (I’m not saying it’s on the same level, but it’s certainly close).
Indeed. And I know I say this all the time: BJ beat Renzo and Rodrigo Gracie at 185 and did as good a job at losing to Lyoto Machida as anybody. That puts him way up in the P4P rankings in my mind.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Faber lost to Tyson Griffon. Faber is a very good fighter, but I don’t believe he could hang with the top 155 pound fighters, let alone BJ Penn.
I dont think he could beat penn either
but i am defending the guy because he got cocky, and go caught by a big shot from a big puncher. Hes still one of the best fighters at 145. Very athletic and conditioned which if Brock has taught us anything, can make up for a lot. He has half as many losses as penn and just wrecked Pulver who beat penn. I know that was a long time ago but give the guy some credit.
And after saying that, hes not going to add 10 lbs and fight penn at 155. Hes too small and dosent have room to add 10lbs.
Penn also wrecked Pulver after blatantly toying with him.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Just to be contrarian:
I think that if GSP wins, it could be viewed as just a bigger fighter beating a smaller fighter – and therefore have little bearing on P4P ratings. But if BJ wins, it means a lot more.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Jan 27, 2009 1:51 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
exactly, this is why these cross weight class super fights make no since for the bigger of the two… he is expected to win bc he is bigger.
…he is expected to win bc he is bigger better.
;)
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 27, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
He's that f*ckin' good.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
No one has mentioned that one of the reasons BJ Penn is in the P4P rankings (IMO) is because he has fought at so many different weight classes – can Anderson, Fedor and GSP say the same?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
I totally agree with this, but feel compelled to point out that it’s a LOT easier for somebody BJ’s size to fight up by putting muscle onto his smaller frame than it is for somebody the size of Fedor or A.Silva to get down to 170. You know?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Technically Fedor has fought opponents who outweighed him by more than anyone Penn has been outweighed by.
Yeah, but
that has more to do with the size distincitons in the HW class. Anyone smaller has no choice as someone 20 or 30 pounds heavier would be put into a different class.
And those opponents have the combined skill-set of your average second grader. Compared to fighting Renzo, Rodrigo, Machida and half the stars of the Welterweight division? Eh.
I move that from now on when we have serious discussions about Fedor we only discuss his fights that mean anything. Thus:
- Andrei Arlovski – OK
- Tim Sylvia – OK
- Hong-Man Choi – Bullshit: no skill
- Matt Lindland – Bullshit: washed up
- Mark Hunt – Bullshit: fat
- Mark Coleman – Bullshit: washed up
- Zuluzinho – Bullshit: fat
- Mirko Filipović – OK (but moving to bullshit along with his career)
- Tsuyoshi Kohsaka – OK (but only for historical purposes)
- Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira – OK
- Naoya Ogawa – Bullshit: who?
- Kevin Randleman – OK
- Mark Coleman – OK (not quite washed up)
- Yuji Nagata – Bullshit: pro wrestler, no wins
- Gary Goodridge – Bullshit: Gary Goodridge
- Kazuyuki Fujita – OK
- Egidijus Valavicius – Bullshit: who?
- Heath Herring – OK
- Semmy Schilt – OK, but barely.
- Chris Haseman – Bullshit: who?
- Lee Hasdell – Bullshit: who?
- Ryushi Yanagisawa- Bullshit: who?
- Renato Sobral – Bullshit: too small
- Kerry Schall – Bullshit: who?
- Mihail Apostolov – Bullshit: who?
- Ricardo Arona – Bullshit: too small
- Hiroya Takada – Bullshit: who?
- Levon Lagvilava – Bullshit: who?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
OK means that he counts. Not that he’s “just okay.”
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Whereas “Tim Sylvia – OK” means JUST WHAT IT SAYS. Get back into training Timmy and learn how to walk like a human being.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
To be honest, that was the entire point of the list….
(Let’s be friends – I’ll braid your hair!)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
when Fedor fought Babalu and Arona they were fighting at heavyweight and neither man is much smaller than Fedor.
At the time both Brazilians were hugely touted and expected to be the next big thing. Fedor was the underdog going in.
It’s bullshit to apply the criteria of 2009 on fights that took place 10 years ago.
Cro Cop for example was the most feared man in MMA when Fedor fought him — after being accused of ducking him for years. Cro Cop’s slide didn’t begin until 2 years after their fight.
1. Babalu is a small LHW – he doesn’t cut much if any weight for most of his fights at 205, and could probably make 185 if he wanted. Arona walks around at 200. Fedor might be able to cut to 205, but it’d take a serious change in his nutrition and training, in ways that it probably wouldn’t for Babalu or Arona to make 185. Fedor isn’t that big, but he’s pretty dense.
2. The question about Mirko isn’t when he started to slide, the question is whether he was ever all that. All of his great victories were in Pride – an organization that even Pride fanboys are slowly starting to accept was fraught with corruption. And feared? Houston Alexander was feared for a few days, but look where that got us. (Not that I’m equating them.) And if he really was that great (I’d say probably), why the shift? FISHY.
3. Your criticisms don’t really address the larger issue that taking out bullshit wins reduces Fedors list to:
- Andrei Arlovski
- Tim Sylvia
- Mirko Filipović
- Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira
- Kevin Randleman
- Mark Coleman
- Kazuyuki Fujita
- Heath Herring
- Semmy Schilt
Still a great list of wins, but not NEARLY as impressive as it looked when fluffed up with middleweights, light-heavyweights, fat guys, unknowns, and pro wrestlers. [And I think I might move Semmy to bullshit. :-) ]
4. Did you miss the post where I admitted that the whole point is that I was trying to make fun of Gary Goodridge? Come on!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Fedor has fought and beaten a lot of guys much bigger and heavier than him. Fedor is not small enough to fight at LHW and is a small heavyweight and has been fighting bigger opposition throughout his career.
Lets see BJ fight middleweights on a regular basis… He’ll get mangled by many. Fedor has never been out-muscled by his opponents no matter how huge they are.
by cauliflower_ears on Jan 27, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair
…neither is nor was a top 20 MW at the time he fought them.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Dude! Gracies! Dude! Come on!
(Yeah, that’s the best argument I can come up with. Sorry.)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I also <3 BJs...ooh...nevermind.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Oh I forgot about that!!! :)
Regardless of rankings, Renzo is still a feather in your cap if you’re a 155er fighting at 185.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Has anyone considered...
that despite the extreme talent level of both fighters, one of them will show an edge in a specific area and dominate the other quickly and end the fight? Wouldn’t it be anticlimactic if GSP immediately scoops Penn up and drives him into the canvas and rains elbows and fists down until the ref stops it at 18 seconds in? Or maybe Penn pulls off an Fedor style counterpunch that lays GSP out like Arlovski last weekend? I totally buy the hype behind this fight, but it’s still just a fight and it may not deliver the back and forth battle nearly as good as (gulp) Coleman/Rua 2 (sorry, for the extreme example).
Has anyone noticed what’s missing from GSP’s roster of wins? Great strikers. The best striker he’s beaten (but just barely) is BJ, and who’s after that? Pete Spratt? Matt Serra?
And where’s the love from the Brock fans – shouldn’t they have shown up by now to point out that his awesome athletic ability will some day put BJ and GSP to shame? Come on, fellas? </sarcasm>
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Yes, instead of GSP beating a litany of guys who are just great strikers, he’s beaten a who’s who of Top 10 fighters in the WW division, and took most of them to school in dominant fashion. That’s more meaningful than another win over a Bang Ludwig or a Marcus Davis/Chris Lytle
Wow. My point: you missed it.
I’m not dissing GSP or his record: I’m saying that I’d like to see him tested against a great striker to see how he measures up. And again, beating BJ, who is a pretty good striker, doesn’t count for much since BJ is a much better BJJ guy than striker, and as stated before, he’s fighting up.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I got your intended point, but your intended point is irrelevant.
GSP fighting a “great striker” is meaningless. He’s the best TD artist at WW, has the best GNP at the weight, and is a BJJ black belt. The only challenges for him are guys who can do it all -guys like Penn and Fitch and Koscheck and Alves.
LOL at you saying that beating Penn “doesn’t count for much”. His MMA boxing is as good as nearly any WW. You’re quickly losing all credibility on your intended topic.
“I got your intended point, but your intended point is irrelevant.”
So you thought: “I’ll just pretend he said something else and respond to that.” That’s a good strategy that I’ll have to employ in the future. OH WAIT.
“GSP fighting a "great striker" is meaningless.”
Really? We should just take any great strikers off his schedule? How does that make sense to you?
“LOL at you saying that beating Penn "doesn’t count for much". His MMA boxing is as good as nearly any WW.”
- That more an indictment of the striking at WW than anything, and
- He’s a LW. Beating a good striker who is a weight class down is expected, not celebrated.
You’re quickly losing all credibility on your intended topic.
You’ve never thought I had any credibility, so I really don’t care about losing it in your eyes. If you start actually reading what I write before you respond to it, I might begin to care.
Also, note to admins: when are we going to get kill-file capabilities so I don’t have to see Hardcharger’s responses any more? It’ll really free up my day if I don’t have to respond to non-sequiturs, straw men and ad hominem comments.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
At what point did I suggest taking “great strikers” off his schedule? Seems you’ve got the market cornered on strawmen.
And yes, your intended point is meaningless. A great striker alone gets steamrolled by GSP due to GSP’s style. Only great all around fighters stand a chance against GSP, and he’s got a laundry list of those on his victim list.
Feel free to rebut after you’re done publically complaining about being taken to task time and again.
At what point did I suggest taking "great strikers" off his schedule? Seems you’ve got the market cornered on strawmen.
Maybe you should re-read the exchange… See, you did your strawman, and I responded that I ought to do that… then I took what you said out of context and… you know what, I don’t think you’re going to get it.
“And yes, your intended point is meaningless. A great striker alone gets steamrolled by GSP due to GSP’s style.”
Because that’s exactly what I said: “great striker alone.” [What is this, the latest Sola? Thanks, Hardcharger Luther!] Unless all great strikers are one-dimensional, by definition or something. Wait, what?
“Feel free to rebut after you’re done publically complaining about being taken to task time and again.”
You know I live for our little exchanges, don’t you? You. Complete. Me.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on Jan 27, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, you’re saying you’d like to see him fight Alves?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I hope they do that fight regardless of the outcome of Penn/St. Pierre.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
That would be a greater condemnation if GSP weren’t the greatest functional wrestler in the history of the sport. Can’t KO somebody from your back. (Usually.)
by Michaelthebox on Jan 27, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not meant as condemnation. I’m gonna have GSP’s nuts tattoed onto my chest so that I can always be hugging them.
And there are great strikers with excellent takedown defense. Ladies and gentleman: Chuck Liddell. (Oooh: If GSP wins he should take on Chuck.)
But let’s not act like GSP has always been the greatest MMA wreslter: what’ most impressive about his wrestling is how quickly he went from so-so to hot-shit. I seem to remember that it was when he started working out with the Canadian Olympic team – is that right? Anybody? Bueller?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
“I’m gonna have GSP’s nuts tattoed onto my chest so that I can always be hugging them.”
Fist off, I lol’d… a lot.
Also disregard my other question up there about you <3ing BJ.
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 27, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I would love to be the meat in a BJ/GSP…. you know what? Disregard this comment.
Who likes dames? I sure do!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
It disgusts me
How quickly he became a world class (tm. J. Rogan) wrestler. Absolute genetic freak.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
what????
“With all due respect to Anderson Silva and Fedor Emelianenko, neither have beaten a fighter with the all-around skill level that the victor here will be able to claim.”
a very shocking claim, have you never heard of Zulu or Hong Man Choi???
Ahem.
Naoya Ogawa and Yuji Shamada,…er,… Nagata want to have a word with you sir.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Quality opponents
Mark Coleman- 7 years after winning first UFC HW belt.
Antônio Rodrigo Nogueira- 2 decision wins over fighter who would hold interim HW belt.
Cro Cop has beaten Josh Barnett three times, Heath Herring, and Wanderlei Silva. He sucks because he lost to Gabriel Gonzaga for the number one contendership for UFC HW belt and to Cheick Kongo.
Tim Sylvia lost the INTERIM HW belt to Nogueira 02/02/2008, left UFC with one fight left on his contract and was beaten by Fedor on 07/19/2008.
Arlovski- Held Interim belt and had the belt promoted to undisputed in title defense. Frank Mir is the true holder of the UFC HW belt and has publicly stated that Fedor is currently better.
Look at Georges St. Pierre, BJ Penn’s, Frank Mir, and Brock Lesnars records. Are there fights that they lost where they should have won? Have some of their opponents been less than great? The win over Heath Herring gave Brock Lesnar a title shot.
Who is the pound for pound best basketball player ever? MJ? Kobe? Iverson? Bill Russell(13 rings)? Muggsey Bogues?
I’m not really sure what you’re arguing…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
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