Thoughts on WEC 38
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 26, 2009 9:05 AM EST
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I'll start with the main event. Most of the title bout between Jamie Varner and Donald Cerrone was exciting and fun to watch. Cerrone displayed relentless determination and Varner was impressive in taking Cerrone down and inflicting damage to a fighter that's extremely dangerous off his back. Unfortunately, the fight ended due to an unintentional, but illegal knee, to the head of Varner. Most would agree that the champion was ahead at that point though one judge did score the match in favor of Cerrone. I must echo the sentiments of those who believe that the fight was rightly stopped. It was the only possible conclusion, given Varner's reaction to the blow. Only Varner knows what he was physically feeling, and we must, as fans of MMA, respect that and realize that the safety of the fighters is of paramount importance. Hopefully, a rematch between the two will occur in the near future.
Jens Pulver didn't look good at all. He really needs to re-evaluate his preparation, and maybe look at whether or not he still wants to fight. Faber looked sharp, but I'm not sure we learned much from the match.
Danillo Villefort showed some amazing skill on the mat en route to a ground and pound stoppage win. Jose Aldo is a seriously dangerous striker who adds even more depth to an already stacked featherweight division. I look forward to seeing both Villefort and Aldo take on the best in their respective divisions.
The worst aspect of the night's event was the late start and the absolute barrage of commercials thrown at Versus viewers. The fact that we had to endure an entire 30 minute installment of Sports Soup shows just where WEC live events rank in the programming scheme. Come on, Sports Soup is a taped show that's shown over and over again. Would CBS or FOX preempt an NFL game to show a Seinfeld rerun? I realize that the WEC isn't the NFL, but Versus isn't a big time broadcaster, either. To make matters worse, viewers were denied the opportunity to watch five other undercard fights and instead were fed commercials ad nauseam.
The WEC really needs to be concerned about the watering down of their product. The promotion had some stellar cards that really raised the bar in regard to fan expectations. The last couple of events, starting with WEC 36, haven't quite lived up to what WEC fans have become accustomed to. Some of that was unavoidable. However, I would like to see more undercard fights like Cerrone/McCullough which went unaired during WEC 36. There seemed to be more than an adequate amount of time to air a couple of additional undercard matches tonight. Those additions would have certainly bolstered the overall WEC 38 product.
Oh, there's one more thing. The crowd absolutely sucked. They booed everthing and everyone except Donald Cerrone and Urijah Faber. It was completely deplorable behavior by many in attendance.
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Varner's acting skills
I hear what you are saying about “Fighter Safety” but I think most of us fans saw the same thing — a glancing blow followed by an Oscar winning performance.
Those of us that watch sports can usually telling when an athlete is taking a dive or ’acting" — in my honest opinion, Varner was acting. He knew if the fight was stopped he had the points to win it but continuing on against the cowboy with a broken hand and a leaking gas tank was a gamble.
Shame that such an epic war had to end that way. Much respect to Cerrone.
shocker....
Couldn’t just leave the rot in the other thread, got to bring it in here too?!? That’s some class right there.
Omar...I'm done with you. Hello Darren Ford! Come to papa.
by PacBellBoozer on Jan 26, 2009 1:58 AM EST up reply actions
I acknowledge that the knee looked to be glancing, but I still don’t see how anyone watching can accurately estimate the impact and resulting damage from the shot. It’s not like a punter taking a dive when a defender lands on his foot.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 26, 2009 1:30 AM EST up reply actions
That is why it makes the situation worse — Varner will always been in the right because only he knows the severity of his injury, again Fighter Safety.
I just don’t buy it — him claiming to be blind, wobbling around on all fours, immediately donning sunglasses to cover his lying eyes, the excuses about his hand, the tears — just seemed fabricated and animated to me.
Just my opinion but I think he is full of shit.
I agree
I also thought it was a horrible acting job.
Also the (paraphrased):
“You have 5 minutes to recover, Varner.”
“I can’t see!!!”
“Take the 5 minutes and see how you feel.”
“Nooo! Stop the fight, I can’t seeeeeee!!!”
If he wasn’t quitting, he would have taken some time to see if he could continue, but he was damn quick to call for a stop. Add to that the limping (which everyone who pretends to be hurt does) and talking about the broken hand… I believe he pussed it.
Noticed the same things
Totally seemed like a whiny acting job. I lost a ton of respect for the champ. Even if he was hurt, his schoolgirl-like behavior was embarassing.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
by thetakeover on Jan 26, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
100% agreed
Yes, the blow was both unintentional and illegal, BUT how gay did that end. There’s no way in your right mind that you can watch that again and tell me that Varner was seeing double from that glancing shot. That was the lamest shit I’ve seen in a while. Why the comment about the broken hand, why the 1000 apologies (if he really was hurt), the glasses…and worse of all THE LIMPING? WTF was he limping for?
...because he ate leg kicks...
during the fight. The limping does not have to be directly related to the eye…
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
...please...
So he was fine to shoot, fine to walk to his corner, fine to hug at every opportunity, fine to keep up his footwork, but the second the fight ends he’s limping?
You've never...
seen a guy start limping after a fight after the adrenaline is gone and the pain stops?
Whatever…I’m not getting drawn into the same arguments as last night. I don’t even like Varner but I think everyone is way out of line questioning a guy in this case.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
*pain starts...
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
dude
The glasses were on his eyes for all of five seconds.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Jan 26, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
but if it didn't convince you
It’s not really an “Oscar winning performance” is it?
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by Scott Christ on Jan 26, 2009 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
Not Oscar worthy definately
Daytime Emmy I would say. It could get him a role on The Young and the Restless
Gimme 1 Round!
bull
it was clearly off his temple. let someone knee you in the temple, and see how you feel. I was there, Varner was whipping him pretty solidly. There’s no reason why Jaime would want out of that fight. Why would he want out of a fight that he’s winning. Plus, he didn’t “get out” of the fight anyways. They went to the cards. Your premise is vapor.
-- I've misplaced my pants.
The kid just went through 22 minutes of war ...
… so I definitely take your word for it that he pussed out at the prospect of going three more and acted his way out of the fight, since you’re a sports fan, and can tell when an athlete is taking a dive or acting.
The reaction to Varner is shameful. Sometimes I’m deeply ashamed to be associated with this sport.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 26, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
"Jens Pulver didn’t look good at all. He really needs to re-evaluate his preparation, and maybe look at whether or not he still wants to fight. Faber looked sharp, but I’m not sure we learned much from the match. "
I can’t see why Jens should get such harsh treatment considering the circumstances going into this fight.
This was a fight he was brought in to lose.
I was livid when, after everything Jens has been through and done in the last 6 weeks which include being beaten and choked merely five minutes ago, he was asked if he “is still relevant in the division.”
I am never the one who throws around such remedial cliches as “respect” and “honor” and the rest of that bullshit in regard to this sport but that question and the mindset behind it – at this time – is absolutely out of line.
I understand your sentiments, and I said that losing to Faber and Garcia isn’t something to be ashamed of in the live thread. However, I just don’t think he’s looked particularly sharp going back to the first Faber match and certainly the Garcia bout. I think he’s probably physically still able. I just want to see him get everything in order before he fights again.
The questions he was asked after the match were regrettable.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 26, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that question was absurd. The poor guy has gone through hell recently. The fact that he got in the cage at all is praiseworthy.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jan 26, 2009 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
I must have missed something, because I have no idea why people are saying Pulver went through Hell recently. What happened?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 26, 2009 2:32 AM EST up reply actions
Ah. I knew they trained together, and I saw the tribute shirt Jens had, but I never knew they were close. Thanks.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 26, 2009 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
They had been best friends since high school from what I read.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jan 26, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
def.
I felt bad for Jens. He was def. brought in to loose—they even mentioned that he didn’t want to take the rematch on such short notice, yet he did it anyways since the WEC asked him to.
The “do you still feel you are relevant to the division” question was rediculous. Did he seriously have that one prepared, or did that just come off of the top of his head? The man was in tears—bouncing back from the death of a friend, and fighting for the well-being of a newborn, why would you ask him that?
they said he wanted to push it back to march
but the fans wanted to see the fight now. Thats a shame because just by asking he may as well announced he was 2 months out from being ready.
Really.
Give Jens a few months to train when his wife isn’t having a baby and his close friend isn’t getting shot to death. How can we draw any conclusions about Jens from this fight, given all the bullshit that happened going into it?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 26, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Glancing blows on the temple or eye to an already damaged head? Seems plausible to me. His “acting” sounded plausible too… who wants to win that way, but he didn’t think he could continue? Having the crowd booing, knowing that a bunch of keyboard jockeys will think you punked out… he seemed genuinely upset and reasonably so. Granted, the hand thing was weak, but hell who wouldn’t give every excuse they could when they had a few thousand people booing them? Or at least, isn’t it understandable?
I don’t especially like Varner, but in all seriousness he and every other victim of an illegal blow should be cut a lot of slack.
This reminds me of Bonjansky vs. Hari. Same shit on Remi, even though Hari was clearly WAY WAY out of line. Why should these fighters risk permanent injury after getting jacked up by illegal blows? It’s the other guy who fucked up, not them. If anyone should have been getting booed, it was Cerrone (but not really because it was unintentional). This Rocky bullshit is nice in movies, but that’s how guys end up talking like their brains are running through molasses and their hands shaking like leafs in the real world.
On the Hari comparison
That was blatently illegal and intentional. After watching the gif about a million times it actually looks like Cerrone clips him with the knee while his hand is up and fractions of a second before his knees hit the ground which would of course be a KO. Also, was I the only one that heard Varner say, “No point deduction?!?” before that performance began?
Gimme 1 Round!
I didn’t hear him say it, but so what if he did? Cerrone was shocked he got one judge, Varner didn’t need a point deduction to win.
And as far as the Hari thing goes—- there were plenty of people who claimed Remi was lying, that he should have gotten back in there. There will always be people who will say this stuff even unless the victim of the blow is unconscious, but it doesn’t make it less obnoxious.
Remy was under no pressure to continue
Do I wish he had been able to, yes… Was he faking, who knows… Could he just as easily have stood up and said fuck you and walk out of the ring by all rights. yah. I wouldnt have respected Remy any less for that.
Gimme 1 Round!
It didn’t deserve a point deduction and I don’t think it was intentional, Cerrone was jus trying to time him and got it wrong. Varner was winning that fight by quite a bit and it was close to being over anyway, it wasn’t really the time to play for a way out. They really do need to book a rematch back to back for these two guys though.
He did
Somebody made a frame by frame replay and circled the spaces between his limbs and the ground. There is space between his knees and the ground and his hands and the ground when the knee connects. Cerrone got robbed and Varner bitched out.
Gimme 1 Round!
Why are you so adamant defending Cerrone? I’m not criticizing, but at every opportunity, you restate your point as bluntly as possible. And where’s the replay you talked about? I’m interested in seeing it – all slow-motion replays I’ve seen strengthen my belief Varner was down, so I’m curious if I missed something.
Besides, it’s hardly a “robbery” – if it took a handful of frames to determine if he had 2 or 3 points down, it was human fallibility, not some obviously bad call. (I always take “robbery” to mean something blatantly egregious) Merde happens.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 26, 2009 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 27, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
I understand your angle — and I agree, we have no idea what the fighter is feeling but it is also human nature to sense if someone is lying. I feel he was lying. I think many people do.
Comparing this to Hari’s assault on Remy doesn’t hold water — completely different situation. But FYI, I was behind Bonjasky on that outcome. What Hari did was a disgrace.
Would Varner have won anyways? Maybe.
Had no problem with Varner not being able to continue, he got caught with an illegal blow in a fight he was winning and couldn’t continue. That’s the breaks sometimes, I don’t know why people want to blame Varner for taking a illegal shot to the head that shouldn’t of happened. I must say that I find myself not caring for Varner after the odd antics with his mouthpiece in the McCullough fight and then all the excuses after this fight but I do think he was taking it to Cerrone through the whole fight and I don’t think he was acting trying to get out of the fight at that point.
Had huge problems with the Jens Pulver interview, it was great for them to give Pulver a round of applause but the piss poor interview ruined the feel of it all. Why can’t they let Frank Mir do the post fight interviews? I also had a problem with the crappy way Versus handled the event, the WEC really needs to get away from those clowns if they want to get somewhere with their programming future. Great event let down by a crappy cable station and a whoever that goof was doing interviews/commentary.
Like I said watching gif over and over again
Cerrone starts throwing the knee as Varner shoots. It should have been a TKO because his knees hit the ground and Cerrone’s knee hits his forehead at the same time.
Just my opinion on that though
Gimme 1 Round!
Mir is respectful and incredibly knowledgeable, whomever this yutz was tonight was such a complete joke that it was insulting even if he was closer to the same physical size as the fighters. Maybe they should get Kenny Florian to do play by play and interviews in these situations.
by who me on Jan 26, 2009 2:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Size is the reason Mir stopped doing it though. Although Kenny + Mir would be awesome. However having Florian interview other 155 pounders in a lesser promotion seems rather ironic. Or if say Alex Karalexis won tonight.
mir and the little guys
we saw mir at a Q&A with Condit and Mike Brown on Saturday, and we kept thinking he should pick up brown and hold him like a child. Mir is enormous. Unfortunately, I got photographic evidence that I have a bigger head than he does, and that I also look a lot like a slightly hairy beluga whale. Mir’s a really nice guy, though.
-- I've misplaced my pants.
I've now seen a slow motion frame by frame of it
Varner got KO’d and Cerrone should have won. Both Varner’s knees were up and he picked his hand up off the ground right as Cowboy begins to throw the knee. Both his knees are still a couple centimeters off the ground by the time the knee is already skidding past his face. War Cerrone. You should be champ bro.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Jan 26, 2009 5:20 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I cant speak for him....
But he told the Dr. he couldn’t see, but after watching and re watching the reaction. He follows the doc.’s fingers with both eyes, he looks right up at Donald Cerrone with both eyes as he approaches to apologize, there were no visible mark, goose egg or swelling. Then he hobbles over to the center of the ring like an old lady in a car accident, At which point he says sorry over and over and the first thing out of his mouth is he “broke his hand”, what about your face bro? I thought that was the problem? I found it odd to say the least especially when Donald Cerrone whose face is just fucked is standing there like a soldier. Dan lauzon didnt apologize for taking his time, because the foul was legit as for Varner I cant speak for him but I have my doubts!
YAMATO DAMASHII
My Pretentious, Overly-Logical Take
1. As of now, there is almost no objective evidence to analyze the knee strike.
1.1 The only objective evidence currently is the footage from the fight.
1.11 The knee certainly makes brief contact around Varner’s right eye.
1.12 Varner was a downed opponent (i.e. had at least three points on the ground.)
1.121 A knee to the head of a downed opponent is illegal in WEC rules.
1.1211 Since the knee to the head was not intentional, there was no DQ.
1.2 The medical reports will reveal more objective detail.
1.21 The length of suspension and any released images (cf Rich Franklin) will indicate the severity of the injury, if any.
1.22 During the in-ring examination, Varner appeared to follow the doctor’s fingers and lights with his eyes.
2. Varner’s testimony is subjective evidence.
2.1 Much of the testimony was melodramatic and over-the-top.
2.11 Due to the high importance of the fight, it is possible that his emotions were overriding him.
2.111 There is no way to confirm or deny 2.11
2.2 There is no longer any way to determine how well Varner could see at that moment.
2.21 Varner’s claims of being unable to see stopped the fight out of fighter safety, which obviates all other concerns.
3. There is currently not enough evidence to determine definitively how injured Varner is.
4. What we cannot speak of we must pass over in silence.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jan 26, 2009 2:27 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I let the DVR tape about 30 mins before I started watching, because most WECs in the past have a ton of commercials. It’s normal, it’s not PPV and they have to make some money. I’d imagine WEC events are some of the highest rating shows on Vs. and they can charge pretty good ad rates. I have no problem with this is if it keeps cards free.
The crowd
This was my first live MMA event. The crowd was energetic through the night. The only real boos was when it looked like there were early stoppages. Everyone was loving the action of the varner and cerrone fight. It really made the night. They even jeered loudly in the prelims when the hometown boys lost.
that's a different...
crowd than came across on the broadcast then. Where they booed EVERYTHING and booed winning fighters after fights ended…etc
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
the booing
the booing of Danillo and of Mike Brown seemed silly. Danillo did a great job, and Brown is a great guy
-- I've misplaced my pants.
They booed Villefort because he mimed shooting an arrow into his opponent’s back.
by Chris Nelson on Jan 26, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
That was just goofy. Anyone know what the hell that was about?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 26, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
I thought it was kinda cool and different.
*shrugs
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 26, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
The WEC exists as a TV product because of Versus. They are inseparable in that. The ratings are not the sort of thing that’s likely to start a bidding war right now either. To add to all that, its hilarious to hear people talk about it “taking off”, as if the fans recognizing Jamie Varner and Carlos Condit’s actual position at 155 and 170 (rather than as legitimate “world champions”) has nothing to do with it.
I think its bizarre that anyone thinks highly of Pulver as a fighter right now. What is he going to do? He can’t beat anyone of value at lightweight, and at feather he’s increasingly less competitive. He’s not getting younger. People love to cite the Randy Couture’s of the world, but Couture never had a stretch where he’s looked this bad on a consistent basis. There’s three pretty gnarly KOs now over his last 6 and a onesided beating that made it the distance.
Not exactly true.
I don’t think you completely understand how ratings are looked at.
Yes, the overall rating of a show means something, but so does it’s place in regards to other shows on the same network and time slot.
The WEC performs better than almost all VS programing and has done far better than other things they have used in the same time slots. And then there is the demos, which are also very strong in comparison.
There are shows that get renewed because they do better than anything else that network has to put in that slot. Joss Whedon’s upcoming series Dollhouse is not expected to deliver major ratings. The network is hoping it develops a core audience and delivers so-so numbers in a tough slot.
At this time, WEC is hardly going to have big networks drooling, but it would be appealing to other lower level channels, ones that are at the same level as VS.
At some point, this is going to have to be discussed between network officials and those at Zuffa. VS is happy to get the demos and ratings but seems reluctant to give the org promotion or even respect.
This isn’t about ratings alone. The WEC was purchased for the purpose of keeping the IFL off of Versus and providing them with MMA programming without infringing upon the deal with Spike and the UFC. If the WEC leaves, that means that Versus either Versus isn’t interested in MMA programming anymore and dropped them (and the WEC would go with it, likely) or they’d be back on the market again looking to talk with promoters.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
Lemme clean that sentence up:
If the WEC leaves, that means Versus either isn’t interested in MMA programming anymore and dropped them (and the WEC would go with it, likely) or they’d be back on the market again looking to talk with promoters because they’d have an opening in their programming.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
True, but if VS continues to do a poor job promoting one of their biggest shows, they should go elsewhere.
Let VS drop the ball with somebody else.
Where do they go? Versus offers pretty good money for these shows. They could go to Showtime, but Showtime wants to control the production themselves. ESPN wouldn’t offer what Versus does, and the same thing goes re: production. To control the production, they’d be looking at HDNet, FSN, and maybe something like G4. None of those are better options.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
BTW, just to show you people’s memories: the WEC used to be on HDNet before Zuffa’s purchase. It didn’t get many talking then.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
As much as I love HDNet, it definitely has not reached the number of homes it needs to yet.
Being on Comcast now, is a big step, but they might need a major network tie-in to really get the popularity they deserve.
I think that if they can reach that point, WEC on HDNet would be awesome. Mainly, because it would create a working relationship with Zuffa and they could get more UFC on Inside MMA. Additionally, I am surprised that there isn’t a desire for the old UFC to be replayed somewhere, like ESPN, VS or Spike. I don’t mean recent ones, bit rather the first 10 years or so.
Between UFC, WEC and all the original/highlight programs, I still wouldn’t be surprised to see a UFC Network pop up at some point.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
I would be surprised if the UFC owned full broadcast rights to the UFNs and TUF Finales. Same deal with the WEC. I would also guess that Spike’s deal with the UFC prevents them from selling programming under the UFC name to other cable networks. Probably most important is the value of those events. ESPN Classic shows boxing that either is very cheap to get or that they have already paid for the rights to. Same thing with their AWA: That’s stuff ESPN produced in the 1980s and was otherwise sitting in storage. Meanwhile, they’d probably have to pay the UFC a decent amount of money to show UFC 26 to an audience of 5 people.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
At this point who is going to pick up that slot on Versus? Things have changed in the last two years in the industry. Versus really is an also-ran cable network, I apparently had it for years on cable and didn’t even know until they started with the WEC. They just aren’t going to do much better in the ratings on a channel that gets excited if one of their shows breaks a 1 rating. Even if the network was treating their shows well they are just going to eventually outgrow them.
At this point who is going to pick up that slot on Versus?
Depends on what money Versus is bringing to the table. If its anywhere near what they pay for boxing, its fantastic money. IFL would still be in business kinda money. The likelihood they’ll get that from a comparable TV partner is completely unlikely. ESPN pays $30,000 per for a weekly boxing show that typically generates similar or better ratings. FSN paid $20,000 per IFL hour. There’s no way Versus is only offering that kind of money for these events.
BTW, I’d say they aren’t outgrowing Versus with the ratings they’ve pulled. Their ratings are solidly in between the WNBA and the Indy Racing League. Now look at what sports are on VS.
Guys, I have to ask this: Why would he act like he was injured and couldn’t go on? He was clearly dominating with 3 minutes to go in the fight. I doubt Cerrone was even in a position to finish him with both eyes swollen shut.
Give me a break. Varner definitely earned that victory. I give major props to Cerrone for his heart and determination but he’s not on Varners level.
Varner is a top 10 LW right now.
You have Varner ranked above:
-Penn?
-Florian?
-Sherk?
-Griffin?
-Maynard?
-Edgar?
-Aoki?
-Hansen?
-JZ?
-Ishida?
-Thomson?
-Melendez?
-Kawajiri?
-Kitaoka?
-Stevenson?
-Franca?
I wouldn’t rank him over any of those guys.
-Sherk?
-Griffin?
-Maynard?
-Edgar?
Def all of the above. He could at least beat those guys at least 5/10 times IMO.
Stevenson?
-Franca? Um..for sure.
You would rank him above Sherk? Please. As for guys like Franca (he was WEC champ once! And it meant about as much then too) he BEAT Varner.
And he would destroy Franca if they were to fight tomorrow. Diffeent fighter. Franca has not been nearly as impressive as Varner lately..
Wait, I thought Cerrone was worldclass? At least according to everyone that posted here the last few days he is..
Look, Varner beat up a guy that trains with the best fighters in the world. Dude was 6"1’ 155 and had obvious skills and he beat him up pretty good.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to think he can hang with some of the UFC’s best LW’s. I really don;t.
I’m sure about four or five people think Cerrone thought might be something beyond a regional level contender. I doubt many of them are around right now.
As for Varner beating up a guy that “trains with the best fighters”, training with and being one of are very different things. Varner’s big wins are Rob McCullough and a guy that beat Rob McCullough. The rest of his record is basically interchangable journeymen and failed prospects. You can suspect he might be able to beat these guys, but he never has. Honestly, I wouldn’t pick him over Guida or Nate Diaz, both of whom also have beaten better fighters.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
That’s cool. I guess I believe in his ability based on the way he has defeated these guys. And guys like MArcus Hicks and Razor and Cerrone are no joke when you look at their records and finishing ability.
Hopefully UFC will start putting on inter promotion fights.
Look, if Varner gets back into the UFC and starts destroying dudes, yeah, I think we can all reconsider his placement in the rankings. The last metarankings have him 17th and that’s about where he should be.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Cerrone proved he has potential but is extremely raw
and can’t stop a takedown to save his life. But he proved he has heart and thats alot more than can be said for some fighters. I’ll watch his further development and think that maybe with a couple more years of experience he can crack the top 10.
Varner is maybe top 25
Gimme 1 Round!
so, let me get this straight, you think a guy that destroyed someone that you think is future top 10 material..is top 25?
You do realize Varner is younger than Cerrone right?
I would think based on last night, Varner is the guy that is future top 10, not Cerrone, But maybe that’s just me..
I’m with you. Cerrone could be top ten if he completely retools his game and becomes a different fighter. That’s a pretty huge if. Right now he’s a guy Marcus Aurelio takes down repeatedly and wins a 30-27 decision against.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Thats why I said
Future top ten. In several YEARS. His standup, when not engaging in a sloppy-kickboxing brawl like he did against Razor, is some of the crispest in the division certainly. His kicks are quick and have snap and he’s got something you can’t teach. Toughness and heart. What he needs is ALOT of practice stuffing the TD. If Varner can’t take somebody down and they have enough heart to not quit against him he’ll fold down the stretch.
Gimme 1 Round!
His head is straight up and never moves, and his punches loop like crazy. On top of that, he’s a sucker for takedowns. What seems to separate him and someone like Chris Horodecki is hype from the right promoters.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His style is extremely strict Muay Thai
Fighters generally stand up very straight for that. Its something he can work on. He has 10 fights with 8 submissions 1 decision and 1 KO of a dude that found a way to bitch out, not too bad. Varner has almost 20 with 3 of them finding ways to get a NC or force a decision before Cerrone could get a 10-8 round.
Gimme 1 Round!
He would kill Sherk in the standup gamer and Sherks wrestling would be neutralized by Verners wrestling skills..
You really believe that the guy who ripped through the UFC lightweight division due to his strength, wrestling, and unreal cardio would lose to Varner? Sherk’s boxing may not be his strength and he has been leaning on it too much lately (imo) but I don’t see anyway that Varner beats him, even if the fight remains standing.
I agree with everything BUT the top 10 LW.
I think he may have the talent, but doubt he will see a high enough caliber of competition in WEC in that weight class to ever be able to truely make that claim. Same problem for a guy like Condit.
Yeah, I understand not being able to rank him based on who he is fighting int he WEC, but I think he is a top 10 level guy and hope he is able to move to UFC soon. Same with Condit..
I think Varner is a very talented fighter and could hold his own against many good LWs, but I don’t see him beating Griffin or Sherk. Sherk’s wrestling is much better and his stand-up is a lot cleaner.
I’ll give you wrestling..maybe (Varner was a D-1 wrestler) but no way Sherk has better stand up than Varner. No way.
Varner’s really wild with his punching, and frankly, his kicks are Mezger-esque in their ability to not hurt.
by D.Capitated on Jan 26, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Sherk has no power in his punches, Varner KO’s dudes. I’ll take Varner in a standup war with Sherk and feel comfortable placing a bet there as well.
Varner has KO'd mid tier fighters
Thats what makes them mid-tier fighters. He certainly didn’t KO Cerrone and he put everything he had into doing it in rd. 1
Gimme 1 Round!
It was completely deplorable behavior by many in attendance.
A typical disgusting display!!
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
Saw the Varner-Cerrone debacle...
And if anything, I think this is another perfect example of why knees to grounded opponents should be legalized. Not sure if it was intentional or not, but it looked like Varner saw he was about to/in a position to be kneed as he was crawling up the fence and tried to dive back down to three-points for a safe haven. Reminded me a lot of Huerta against Guida where Huerta stalled in three-points purposely to avoid damage…I don’t think a fighter should be disadvantaged by having themselves in an advantageous position and having a fighter intentionally hide behind the rule.
In all fairness to Varner, only he and his team know how badly he was injured and fighter safety should be paramount. That being said, I thought it was somewhat questionable as to whether he was actually injured, mainly because it seemed like he couldn’t decide what was exactly wrong with him.
First, he was asking about a point deduction and then saying he couldn’t see to the doctor. Then it appeared as if he was incredibly woozy the way he was falling onto his face on all fours, which in all honesty looked like a pretty bad attempt by someone to appear as if they were in la-la land – coupled with the fact that he was doing some totally awkward, half-bent over shuffle to the middle of the ring afterwards.
I for one am not asking a fighter to “man-up” and fight when they were hit with an illegal blow and do not feel that they can properly finish a fight – it’s their perogative as to whether or not they can continue. But the amount of circumstantial evidence (i.e. looked to be running out of steam, opponent was really coming on strong, broken hand issue, litany of wildly varying symptoms of different injuries) seemed to be mounted on the side of him looking to find a way out of a fight that, while he was ahead on the scorecards and could ride out the decision, he was beginning to look to be in some serious trouble from a guy that can dole out a lot of punishment in a short period of time.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
So...
should punches to the back of the head be legalized? I mean..how often do we see guys turn their heads so that a guy can’t hit them when they’ve had their back taken? Is that not also “hiding behind the rules?” Using the rules to your advantage is a part of all sports.
I’m not anti-knees on the ground, nor am I overwhelmingly pro. I enjoy the punishment for positional mistakes, but until we’re legalized in places like New York I’m not for adding anything else “brutal” looking to the sport.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t really know how close of a comparison that is, other than they’re both currently “illegal moves”.
In the case of blows to the back of the head – once a fighter is in position to take blows to the back of the head, the referee will most times determine that the fighter is not “intelligently defending”. When you turn your back to your opponent in a standing exchange or give up your back and are basically turtling up – the fight will be stopped.
In the case of knees to the head on the ground you get a situation like Cerrone-Varner or even Shogun-Coleman (perfectly legal move that was initially called illegal due to the difficulty with the rule) or fights that get stalled because a fighter makes a lazy or desperate shoot on their opponent and then remain there, in full “safe harbour” of the rule. Fighter A makes a move that could put them in the advantageous situation (i.e. takedown with top position), but if they miss there is little punishment or disadvantage to them as they can remain in the 3-point position (which rarely results in harsh damage from punches from what I’ve seen) and there’s little “advantage” to the defending fighter who’s opponent is desperately hugging his lower body. Not to mention that due to the “absolute liability” under the rule you could throw a legal knee that is intenionally made illegal by the other fighter putting themselves “in harm’s way” by assuming the 3-point position.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
THere are plenty of fights...
where a guy has given up his back and turtles up but hasn’t taken a shot yet and when the guy on top throws he hits the back of the head and is given a warning..etc.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
And I would still argue the difference would be that in those cases you have options in striking the opponent and only instances of blatant shots directly to the back of the head get warnings or penalized. Plus you’re well placed to attempt a rear naked choke or attack the body to free up head shots. IMO – comparison to the 3-points situation should be looked at where an opponent turns his back standing.
In the case of the knees look at the “stalemate” that occurs – Huerta-Guida, W. Silva-Henderson II, etc. Same thing would occur to someone offering their back in a standing situation, but it would usually result in a referee stepping in.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
There's a difference between...
giving up your back and then having the opponent punch you in the back of the head when there’s plenty of options and time.
Diving to put your hand down when a knee is being delivered, doesn’t give your opponent much choice as is available in the other situation.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Also...
Giving up your back is seen as giving yourself up to a dangerous (worse) position against many opponents. If you give up your back and are in a position to only cover yourself to only expose the back of your head, the fight should probably be stopped.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I do think..
we’re arguing while in favor of the same thing. Would I like to see knees on the ground? Yeah. But I just don’t think it’s the right time for it yet.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
I dont want to see knees on the ground. I think with the HW’s generating the power they can you’d start to see way more injuries and I mean like long term serious ones Brock lesnar could probably cave in your skull with several solid knees on the ground. It would make it a more accurate depiction of a fight, but its not worth the risk. IMO
YAMATO DAMASHII
Full agreement Brent – I was just thinking the same thinking the same thing and wanted to post it.
I totally believe you’re right that we won’t see it and shouldn’t see it while they’re trying to get AC’s on board – most specifically in NY. It’s unfortunate because it’s really just an issue of placating the imbeciles you have such bias against the sport to begin with, but at this point I guess we’ll have to go with getting a footing and then fighting for certain amendments. At the end of the day I would love to see a rule implemented that allows knees on the ground.
One thing I am confident of is that Zuffa, Ratner and their lobbyists will do a great job in educating and convincing them that the sport is a real sport and worthy of sanctioning.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Yeah. The idea...
of trying to convince NY that the sport isn’t brutal while they review the rules and then see the new addition of knees on the ground would be….rough. The real problem is that I think these types of people believe that for someone to be “on the ground” means that they are getting knocked down and pummeled. So the idea of attacking someone who is down is like attacking a guy who is defenseless…and unless the guy on the ground is Houston Alexander that just isn’t the case.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
The frustrating part is...
ignorant people with agendas like Bill Reilly will still try to convince people it’s a “barbaric sport” and that they do in fact kick/stop downed fighters, eye gouge and do other dastardly things.
LOL at the Alexander part though. :)
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I don’t buy the argument he was looking for an out and acted his way to a decision. He was totally owning Cerrone for 4 rounds prior to that and only had to survive 3 more minutes in the 5th round. Cerrone had both eyes closed up from swolling and was never going to finish varner at that point in the fight.
Why would he quit at that point? Knee strikes are so painful and to the head? That’s bad. Who are we to question the damage done?
Never going to finish Varner at that point in the fight? I think the argument is that he did in fact finish Varner. Varner was winning, no doubt, but I don’t think Cerrone was fighting to win a decision. Thats obviously not his style as he presents very little in the way of defense on the feet.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
3 minutes left is an eternity in a fight like that.
Like I said, only he knows how “hurt” he was, but in my opinion his lack of ability to decide what exactly “hurt” was pretty suspect.
Cerrone was starting to gain a lot of steam at that point and I think we can all agree it doesn’t take long for a fighter to swarm someone into a TKO stoppage, especially in the 5th round.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Ok, if Cerrone had showed in the previous 4 rounds that he could finish Varner I would agree withyou, but the fact of the matter is that Varner had an answer for him on the feet and on the ground. The fight was pretty one sided to that point.
Everything is basically up to “what may have happened” in the end. I personally think Varner would have weathered the storm and Cerrone would have won the 5th round but still lost 3 other rounds with maybe the 2nd going to his favor.
I hope they rematch.
Fully agree with you on the rematch.
I just feel like he could have waited for the full 5 minutes, then determined that he was unable to continue the fight. Obviously things happen so fast in those situations and he didn’t think of that option…but do you not agree there’s a bunch of surrounding circumstances that might make one skeptical?
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I love this kind of controversy!
I called it a KO immediately following the knee strike. I am still calling it a KO. It has brought up some good issues about the rules regarding knees and kicks to an opponent with 3 points of contact with the ground.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
… perhaps the debate about whether it was, in fact, illegal. Many people believe that Varner did not have two or three points on the ground when the knee landed, but was merely “close” to having them down.
by Kierkegaard on Jan 26, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Watching that again
it was somewhat of a stupid strike for Cerrone to try at that point.
Perhaps this situation validates the “Franklin Defense”? (joke)
I’m very much reminded of Akiyama vs. Misaki there. Just so damned close…milliseconds/millimetres difference and it would be a HL reel KO.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Pre-empted?
Not so sure about that but I feel the rest of the topic was right on. The fact is that VS. aired the NHL all-star game at six and likely placed sports soup as a buffer in case it ran over-which it did.
Sometimes they’re not out to get us.
When it's a recorded show...
or a live event…you cut the recorded show off and go to the live event. I don’t think they were “out to get us” but I do think it was stupid.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
In the era of Tivo that seems less an option, I for one would have been furious if my tivo missed the recording, or if the started the show eighteen minutes early because of a quick programming change.
As a fan of both hockey and MMA I watched the all star game, labored through about eighteen minutes of sports soup and then watched MMA. Better to have the planned buffer than lose any of the game or MMA.
3 points rule
Could someone please explain the 3 points of contact with the ground rule for downed fighters? Does the ass count as a point? Seems that both of Varner’s hands were off the mat when he got knee’d, & only his ass and feet were touching the canvas.
points..
Feet, Hands, Elbows, Knees, Hips, Butt…I think that’s all of them
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
I guess no one is freaking out over this...
Just something to keep in mind when Brock Lesnar lassos his next steer.
That happened pretty quick. I didn’t catch it during the live showing. Honestly, all that shit looks kind of dumb.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 26, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
My problem with it is...
shooting a man in the back. It’s a cowards move. Had he shot him in the front…then I’m fine with it. I’ve seen enough westerns to know that you just don’t shoot a man in the back.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
was that sarcasm?
You really think it makes a difference whether he shot the guy he just choked out, with an imaginary arrow from the front or back? Thats too absurd to be serious.
ya think?
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
by Brandon Jones on Jan 26, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
...yes...
it was sarcasm.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 26, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
just checking
Hey man, with some of the holier than thou posts earlier in the thread, it’s hard to tell.
Everyone had a freakin' bird over Lesnar "lassoing" Herring.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I think it was the point and laugh
When all brock did was land 1 punch and some positional control for the fight
Gimme 1 Round!
yeah Brent
Its not like he stole his horse or anything.
Read My Blog
"Life's tough, tougher if you're stupid."
So wait
he remembered to put his sunglasses on inside a building for a paycheck… But his brain was so scrambled he couldn’t see LOLOL
Gimme 1 Round!
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