Josh Gross Says "Rich Franklin Won't Be Remembered as an Elite Fighter"
by Nick Thomas on Jan 20, 2009 2:39 PM EST
56 comments
Rich Franklin won't be remembered as an elite fighter. Not as of now. Losses to Anderson Silva (twice), Lyoto Machida and Dan Henderson tell us he's not. And the best win on his ledger? Maybe Yushin Okami, which isn't terribly inspiring. Franklin has never shied away from the top competition, and there are plenty of in-cage possibilities available to him. His performances in those fights will determine whether he's thought of as one of the best, or simply a quality fighter who fell short against his toughest opposition.
Agree?
UPDATE [from Luke Thomas]: I'm very curious to see what people think about this one. Please vote.
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It’s hard to argue anything in that paragraph. I will say that if you don’t think Franklin is an elite fighter than you shouldn’t consider Henderson one either. That fight was about as close as it gets, and despite Henderson having some moments of brilliance in his career he’s also had some fights where he’s looked like garbage. I guess, by definition, there won’t be too many fighters that should be considered truly elite, right?
by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 20, 2009 2:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dan Henderson not Elite?
Well; Wanderlei Silva, Antonio Rodrigo Noguiera, Carlos Newton, Renzo Gracie, Babalu, Kazuo Misaki, Vitor Belfort….. those seem to be some pretty big wins in my book. I don’t see any names like that on Rich Franklin victory list.
by Gunslinger20 on Jan 20, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll give you Wanderlei and Nogueira (though neither of those guys were in their prime when he beat them). Newton, Gracie, and Belfort are big names in earlier days, but not really that relevant to “modern” MMA. Henderson still has the better resume, but based on what each has done recently I have trouble saying that Henderson is or ever was a better fighter. I think Henderson has just compiled more big name wins because he has fought more big name fighters.
by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 20, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wanderlei was indeed in his prime
Pride 33 was one of the last events by the promotion and Wanderlei still was on that unbeaten streak of his which Henderson ended by knocking him the hell out. Wanderlei has been on a downward turn since his arrival in the UFC, any victory against Wanderlei Silva in Pride is a monumental win. He beat Newton and Gracie when they were still contenders… Belfort, I’ll give you that one. Big Nog, he has always been a great fighter and like w/ Wanderlei, he reached a downward turn once joining the UFC. His only kryptonite in his Pride days was Fedor, we can’t fault him for that.
Anderson Silva will go down in history for his big wins over Franklin and Henderson… his other wins are gimmies in my mind, at least in the UFC.
Franklin doesn’t have an impressive resume and he has proven he can’t beat the elite in his performances against Anderson Silva and Dan Henderson…. but Franklin is still a great fighter. Dan Henderson is an Elite fighter in my opinion.
by Gunslinger20 on Jan 20, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wand had lost by decision to Arona and Hunt and KTFO by Cro Cop by the time he and Hendo fought – really, he has severely declined since having his head nearly kicked off.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jan 20, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Gross is overstating things a bit. The fight with Henderson was very close. Losing to Machida and Silva isn’t uncommon. I guess it depends on how one defines “elite.” Franklin still has an opportunity to score some big wins.
by Cannon Jacques on Jan 20, 2009 2:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Plus, when you look at his losses, he lost to Machida way early in his career. Anderson Silva beats up on everyone, so that’s not a huge derailer there. The Hendo fight was basically a draw.
I wouldn’t put Franklin on any top 5 list, but he will be remembered as a great fighter.
by lbk on Jan 20, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Lyoto fight was somewhat early in his career, but he was 12-0 and Lyoto was 2-0. Its not like he got rumbled by a more experienced fighter, he lost to someone he was heavily favored to beat.
by smoogy on Jan 20, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
favored?
Favored by people who didn’t know what Machida was capable of. The Franklin fight opened some peoples eyes about Machida.
PS – I don’t think Rich is elite, but if he used some of that theoretical jits and added some cleaner MT he could be. But the same could be said of a lot of MMAs.
by asa on Jan 22, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I agree with Josh Gross on something!
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Jan 20, 2009 3:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’ll preface this by saying I’m not really a Franklin fan. However.. I would contend that he will be remembered as an elite Mixed Martial Artist, though perhaps not as an elite UFC fighter. You don’t last this long in the UFC for nothing. The man won the title at 185 and has had some dominating performances in his career. At his peak, there were likely only three or four men in the entire world of Mixed Martial Arts that had a chance against him. That speaks volumes. The terminology of Elite Fighter may be too vague to accurately define Franklin as a participant in that conversation. But based on the criteria of his being one of the greatest at 185 in the entire world of MMA during his title reign, I think he applies. In a historical sense, based on his toughest fights (which may eventually be regarded as having happenedafter he regressed) among top 25 fighters of all time? Franklin, at this juncture, has no place in that conversation.
by Blackout612 on Jan 20, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
At his peak, there were likely only three or four men in the entire world of Mixed Martial Arts that had a chance against him.
This is in regard to 185 pounders.
by Blackout612 on Jan 20, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he was elite once, maybe still. but i agree he wont be remembered that way.
he’ll be remembered as the guy that got his nose broke twice by the spider or that guy that used to be a teacher.
by Headkick on Jan 20, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The jury is still out on his career. He’s still young, and lost a split razor close decision to Dan Henderson. At this point he probably still has to go down as one of the top 5 guys at 185 of all time. It strikes me that this definition is just wrong, considering the fact that the fight was so close, and if one more judge gave Franklin round 2 then he would supposedly be an elite fighter according to Gross.
I think Franklin can make a mark at 205. Quinton Jackson barely beat Dan Henderson, Henderson is good at forcing decisions. I’d currently pick Franklin over a slew of guys at 205—Thiago Silva, Luis Cane, Tito Ortiz, Babalu, Sokoudjou, Wanderlei Silva, Shogun Rua, Chuck Liddell, and maybe even Forrest Griffin. I don’t think he’d beat the top 3 right now, but he’s good enough to make a mark.
One disturbing trend about MMA I think is the fact that because guys at the top are so close and will go even with each other, critics will then act like they suck and can point out any number of things. Like Wanderlei Silva? He’s lost 4 of 5, he sucks. Think Chuck is great? He’s lost 3 of 4, he sucks. Think Nogueira is great? He lost to Frank Mir, he sucks. Think Randy Couture is great? He’s 16-9, he sucks, lost to a pro wrestler.
It’s getting to a point of absurdity where only Fedor, Machida, and Anderson Silva are considered good fighters. Rich Franklin will never be remembered on the world beater level of Anderson Silva or Lyoto Machida, but if that’s the only definition of elite then the definition is too thin.
by Michael Rome on Jan 20, 2009 3:18 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Bull Crap
Gross is defining “Elite” by top fighters in MMA around the world right now. If elite means beating 3 or 4 fighters, then no. He’s got it predetermined that you’ll only be “remembered as elite” if you beat Fedor, Anderson or Dan Henderson. Forget any other wins, they are pointless. As a matter of fact, Fedor, Anderson and Dan Henderson should just fight each other once a month.
by Gogoplatapus on Jan 20, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you just gave Tom Atencio...
a new business model.
Affliction 3: Silva v. Fedor
Affliction 4: Fedor v. Hendo
Affliction 5: Hendo v. Silva II
I smell a hit!
by B Money on Jan 20, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Toss in Wandy and you’ll have the hardcore fans ooozing in their Aoki pants.
by Gogoplatapus on Jan 20, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll personally be oozing...
My Manhoef skirt
by B Money on Jan 20, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probly easier to ooze in a skirt. Aint much room to travel in Aoki pants.
by Gogoplatapus on Jan 20, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya think if he farts in them, a bubble actually appears?
by Gogoplatapus on Jan 20, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No...
Aoki pants are very breathable…don’t ask me how I know that. I mean…it’s not like I wear them at home while I watch WEC re-runs alone in my crappy apartment or anything…I’ve said to much.
by B Money on Jan 20, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Quite alright
I was watching WEC re-runs at 230am last night in fact, with my life size card board cutout of Arianny.
Being with me is like being with a broken tampon. There's no strings attached.
by Gogoplatapus on Jan 21, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think chuck KO’s Rich. Franklin has been knocked down by Silva, Tanner, the Crow, Henderson and Lyoto he’s seems pretty easy to hit and we all know what happens if chuck lands. Babalu, Wand and Shogun are the only guys he could realistically take.
YAMATO DAMASHII
by R.T. on Jan 20, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It might be a bit early to define how Rich Franklin will be remembered as his career isn’t over yet. Gross makes some good points but a couple of big wins at 205 would completly change that.
by who me on Jan 20, 2009 3:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m so hoping that the UFC lines up Rich Franklin vs Wanderlei Silva for UFC 100… would be a great fight IMO.
by brad23 on Jan 20, 2009 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Rich Franklin is the Sugar Shane Mosley of MMA, really really good, but not elite.
by #5mmafan on Jan 20, 2009 4:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It's an overstatement...
… but technically Gross is right. Right now, Franklin isn’t the cream of the crop. He’s certainly close, but not quite. However, he still has a lot of fighting years left – a lot of good fighting years. He needs a couple more fights against elite level guys like Henderson before he can be ruled out like that. He almost beat Hendo, and another few minutes he definitely would have.
by pud333 on Jan 20, 2009 4:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Before being introduced to Silva's
knees no one would even be thinking that Franklin was not elite. How soon we forget.
by dnevil001 on Jan 20, 2009 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
Four losses ever – one to the unbeaten Machida, two to the unstoppable Anderson Silva, and a split decision loss to Hendo. Jesus, we’ve gotten picky lately.
by subo on Jan 20, 2009 4:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Or to spin it another way, he is 0-4 against the only truly great fighters he ever took on.
by smoogy on Jan 20, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can one be ‘elite’ without being ‘legendary’? Does being on an All-Star team make you ‘elite’, or do you need to make the Hall of Fame (which I have Franklin doing)? I don’t know a lot of other guys that are top five (arguably) at two weight classes at the same time. Remember, he’s still the #2 middleweight in the world – there’s just no reason for him to drop back down until a) Anderson moves up for good and/or b) the UFC signs up Jacare and others to buffer the division.
But if you’re going to lose four fights over the course of your career, you could pick three worse fighters to do it to.
by subo on Jan 20, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now that he's moving up to a division where all the talent is in the UFC
he’s gonna lose ALOT more. The UFC’s 185 class has always been their weakest class and until Henderson he had only fought 2 of the UFC’s better upper tier fighters there. Losing badly to Silva twice and losing round 3 to Okami so bad it could have been a draw. I think Marquardt is overrated and i’m pretty sure Marquardt would sub Franklin too.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on Jan 21, 2009 4:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rich Franklin has lost 4 times
He has countless fights in the UFC, where the best 185 and 205 pounders have been in his fight history. He is (In my opinion) a ufc hall of famer when his time comes, as long as he doesn’t go on a losing streak of any note.
He lost to Machida who hasn’t lost and is going to be making a pretty big case for being elite himself in the near future. Anderson Silva isn’t going to lose to anybody at this point in his career, even if he does it will be considered an aberration and a rematch will almost guaranteed have the spider with his hand up. Silva can tear ACLs with the fifty two blocks technique, I challenge anyone to name another fighter who has done that.
His worst loss (or most disappointing) is his most recent, namely because he really was quite competitive against Henderson, doing more damage but being held down. Split decision loss to a pretty elite fighter in Hendo? Not enough for me to consider him outside of the elite.
Will he be remember that way? Who cares? He was and still may be one of the best in the division of his choosing.
"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand
by rockied on Jan 20, 2009 4:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can we put up a " Is Joss Gross the most boring man in MMA poll?"
Please
Please
Please
by qwerty2323 on Jan 20, 2009 4:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Okami is the best fighter he has ever faced and he's never faced a great opponent?
Tanner was 27-3 when Franklin TKO’d him in the first round. Tanner wasn’t a great fighter in his prime? Be serious…
by Blackout612 on Jan 20, 2009 5:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, where is this revisionist history coming from? Franklin is definitely an elite fighter.
by Day Man on Jan 20, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight… Losing a razor thin decision to Dan, losing to arguably the best P4P fighter on the planet in Sila and losing to Machida 6 years ago – and he’s still only 34/35. He’s got a shitload of fights ahead of him.
He held the title for 18 months (I think) and cleared out the 185 division until Spider came along.
“Won’t be remembered as an Elite fighter”? – Behave yourself.
by constantin3 on Jan 20, 2009 5:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
To be an elite fighter wouldn’t you have to beat elite competition? I don’t think he’s done and will eventually get over that hump but as of right now he’s not elite.
by dedstrk316 on Jan 20, 2009 5:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What does "ELITE" mean?
That’s the question here. What is you’re definition of elite. Rich is borderline, but on paper, Josh is right. He just doesn’t have the wins over great competition.
by Dexerion on Jan 20, 2009 5:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The trick is to not define your terms, that way you can’t be wrong.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 20, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is the question, indeed. And there’ll always be a measure of subjectivity at the foundation of the scale, where a fighter is considered elite based on showing against other elite fighters’ showings. There’s something to the argument that he actually isn’t champ now that Hendo and Anderson are in his promotion.
However, for me, “elite” is best understood (quite subjective and arbitrary, of course) as anyone in the tier of and above top 5 gatekeeper. This, I guess, isn’t what Gross takes it to mean – he seems to have it denoting p4p type quality. In that case the answer is “no”. For me, it’s “yes”.
by ununkvadrium on Jan 20, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, this is not a very clever statement. By any reasonable measures Okami is very much an Elite fighter. If Okami and Franklin shouldn’t be considered ‘elite’ this just means that you define elite as top two or so in world.
Don’t forget that the match with Henderson was really close and that Franklin really was winning at the end.
(BTW, remember that Okami should have a better record than he has, since the win over Shields was stolen by incompetent judges. Okami is really, really good. Franklin might be tad better.).
by Sventsh on Jan 20, 2009 5:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gross is obviously an idiot, Franklin has 4 career losses…
Henderson (Pride MW and WW champ/UFC MW champ)
Silva (UFC MW Champion)
Machida (undefeated fighter)
He’s beaten and dominated everyone else he’s fought including Evan Tanner 2x to win the UFC MW title to question his legitimacy specially after a questioniable decision to Dan is laughable.
by Raker on Jan 20, 2009 5:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hendo was the MW champ in the UFC?
He won the tourney iirc, but I don’t remember him winning any belts.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Jan 20, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s referring to Franklin beating Tanner twice.
by subo on Jan 20, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Anderson Silva was never born we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Yeah, who got the final Death Blow? 'Cause I thought that Hawaiian guy had it comin' to him. - C. K.
by monkeyfightclub! on Jan 20, 2009 7:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Franklin suffers a bit because he had a late start to MMA. Before Loiseau he had put down how many opponents in the first round?
He certainly had as good of a run of success as any of the old guard. Obviously Ando is on a tier above, but Franklin is in a class where 99% of other fighters would love to be.
by bigweeze on Jan 20, 2009 7:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Way too early in his career to tell right now.
by Tonley on Jan 20, 2009 8:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It reminds me of that Jordan Breen or Jake Rossen (I get those two confused) article on “10 Fighters who should retire” that was posted on Sherdog.
Which had Frank Mir and Alistair Overeem mentioned in it.
We’ll just leave Woody Allen to be sensational in his own little world.
by SamCupitt on Jan 20, 2009 8:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If it made little sense and/or pissed off people, 9 times out of 10 it’s Rossen.
by Tonley on Jan 20, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Didn’t read any comments, but I was saying this before the Hendo/Franklin fight. Unless he beats some elite guys in the future he won’t be held in the same regard as Fedor, Wandy, etc.
by Mike Fagan on Jan 20, 2009 9:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How bout this...
Franklin’s losses are few and far between. and the only people he has lost to are not that great of fighters. I mean dan Henderson? he got lucky with his head-butt-to-eye-poke move, patented i might add. Loyoto Machida was a fluke at best. some squirrely lookin fuck that lands a weird punch. as for Anderson Silva, the guy is a joke, like HE will be remembered as anything but the guy who got submitted by a flying heel hook, LAME.
Franklin is obviously the best fighter the UFC has, this “Jeff Grossface” is a complete idiot.
by georgehouse on Jan 20, 2009 11:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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