Aoki is NOT a Top Five Fighter

by mmalogic on Jan 16, 2009 12:41 PM EST Comment 47 comments

Aoki is not a top five lightweight... his pants are!

From his own coach (Eddie Bravo):

A lot of guys are using the rubber guard now; a lot of guys. But what makes Aoki different are the pants. The pants just make the rubber guard more effective. Slipperiness is the enemy of submission.

It’s no question Aoki is so effective with his rubber guard right now because of the pants.

The guy who trained him in the rubber guard admits this...

This is not MMA. This is tantamount to a striker knocking out his opponents with brass knuckles and people saying he's a top 5 fighter.

This guy wouldn't last without his magic underwear.

********

Source:

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content4135.html

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Hmmmmm…two aokipants in one fight = someone gets set on fire?

by iiowyn on Jan 16, 2009 12:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

He deserves some extra credit wearing those hideous things.

by pr0cs on Jan 16, 2009 12:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Who as a LW has better wins than Aoki.
Not more than 5 people, I can tell you that much.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 16, 2009 1:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think the argument is that the people he has beaten weren’t good so much as that he wouldn’t necessarily have beaten them sans magic pants.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Jan 16, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It’s like the argument that everyone in the NBA is a great athlete. Ok, than why isn’t everyone scoring 27 per game like Lebron than?

Anyone in Japan can wear something that helps with submissions yet nobody is fdoing what he’s doing. Why is that?

Maybe he’s that good?

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 1:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Everybody in Japan can, but no one in the UFC can. When you’re talking about world rankings this is a very relevant issue. Outside of BJ, most UFC LW fighters have trouble getting the same recognition as their counterparts in Japan, at least with respect to rankings. Of course, this is only one of the many differences that makes rankings difficult.

And by the way, having great athleticism (even compared to other NBA players) is a huge reason why Lebron is who he is. There is really no one else who has that combination of speed, quickness, coordination, leaping ability, size, and strength. I’m not sure that it’s a great analogy anyway, though. Lebron’s physical attributes are not something to be decided by his sport’s governing authorities.

by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 16, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess my point is that the pants can’t be the sole reason he locks those subs in. If that were the case, every BJJ black belt in Japan would fight with pants. But they don’t. Why not?

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The guy who taught him the rubber guard seems to think his pants help a darn lot…

by mmalogic on Jan 16, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The two top Japanese fighters, Aoki and Kitaoka, both wear magic pants. Maybe thats just a big coincidence, but as coincidences go, it surely raises eyebrows.

by Michaelthebox on Jan 16, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh come on, you really attribute all of his success to the pants? That’s ridiculous. The guy is a black belt in Judo and BJJ. I think his skills play a small part in his record wouldn’t you say?

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Where did I attribute all his success to his pants? If a great boxer goes into a fight with plated gloves, he’s getting an advantage over his peers. He’s still a great boxer, but the plated gloves must be taken into account when judging his true skill level.

I don’t have the slightest idea how much impact magic pants have, or if they have any impact at all. But completely writing off the notion, when both the top Japanese fighters have them? That strikes me as a little closeminded.

by Michaelthebox on Jan 16, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, maybe Cro Cop should start wearing them on that notion. His ground game would become top 5 worthy…

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you always mischaracterize other people’s arguments in order to support your own?

by Michaelthebox on Jan 17, 2009 4:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not my intent. i just think you and others are taking a highly skills submission fighter and writing his skills off because he wears pants in the ring. Perhaps it’s an advantage, but again, why don’t all fighters in Japan wear pants if its THAT much of an advantage?

by lbk on Jan 17, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Where do you see me writing off his skills? I said outright in my original post that it may be a coincidence, and then in my followup that I don’t know if they have any impact at all. All I’m saying is that they may have an impact, and the fact that the top two Japanese fighters wearing them should be enough to at least raise a question.

by Michaelthebox on Jan 17, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok I'm finally gonna rant on this

Kitaoka and Aoki are the 2 best grapplers in Japan right now. The fact they wear the pants is they are both from the same camp. Pants help some but not that much. Their help is very dependent on what you’re going for. They help much more for heel hooks, toe holds and achilles locks than for the submissions that Gomi regularly scores – CHOKES

They could help on the triangle choke by providing more traction but it doesn’t add any benefit to Oma/Gogoplatas, neck cranks or RNC’s when you’ve already got the guy in a body triangle. You can make the arguement that since Kitaoka is a leglock machine maybe his pants help him, but Aoki has like 1 win via leglock and most of his wins come before somebody even gets sweaty. Maybe they helped him against JZ by providing traction for all the times he pulled guard. That being said Kitaoka has been hitting his leglocks so fast nobody is sweaty either.

Gimme 1 Round!

by skwirrl on Jan 17, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

For a person who is very vocal about slamming fighters because “they’re all on steroids”, you seem to be defending people using pants to an unfair advantage quite adamantly.

by LiuLang on Jan 17, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, we can tell that they’re wearing pants.

by Richard Wade on Jan 17, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

because they look hideous! That is why.

"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"

by Warhand on Jan 16, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

On the contrary, magic pants look AWESOME.

by Michaelthebox on Jan 17, 2009 4:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The trouble in the rankings has to do with the LW division being shut down for so long and the slowness at which the rankings move. While Gomi was still ranked #1, most of the UFC LWs were just seen as scrappy wrestlers. The gap in talent at 155 is also huge in the UFC. There’s BJ, then Sherk and Florian, and then who? No one poses a viable threat.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by themachiavellian on Jan 16, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s part of the trouble, but it’s also different rules, different scoring system, different number and length of rounds, cage vs ring. All these things play into it.

Gomi is a good example of the rankings problem. Up until very recently he was highly ranked despite not looking that good since the end of 06. Yet it wasn’t till his loss to the random Russian fighter that he really dropped in the rankings. Aoki is very good, but he just got destroyed by Hansen- one win later he’s at #2? It seems like if people have a choice they’ll automatically go with the fighter in Japan. The UFC has had a lightweight division for over two years now- a lot can change in that amount of time.

I think the talent gap is less than you think it is. Sherk just won a close decision over Tyson Griffin. Griffin has beaten Aurelio (who beat Gomi and lost a close decision to him), Tibau, Tavares, and Guida, and otherwise only lost to Frankie Edgar. Edgar has beaten Franca, Fisher, Bocek, and Miller, and only lost to Gray Maynard. Maynard also holds a win over Clementi. These guys are the next level and I would expect them (for the most part) to be competitive against anyone- whether from the U.S. or Japan.

by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 16, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They would definitely be competitive but don’t think that the UFC lightweights are automatically better. We can’t know for sure until we see fights, but I’m pretty sure Aoki could submit anybody in the UFC without getting knocked out. JZ couldn’t finish him in two fights, Alvarez got taken to the ground within minutes, and the only reason Hansen got the KO is because Aoki was exhausted from putting on an MMA grappling clinic against Caol Uno. Watch their first fight and you’ll see what was really meant to happen.

by KneeToTheFace on Jan 16, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I never said UFC fighters are automatically better. I said that other people think the opposite- which is what I’m trying to refute. As for Aoki submitting anybody in the UFC- he could submit many of them in Japan. Regardless of the rules, I think its very unlikely that he beats Penn, and I also think Florian is a bad matchup for him. I think under UFC rules Florian would destroy him with elbows- in Japan it would a closer fight. A Sherk/Aoki fight is interesting- I’d probably pick the winner based on the rules they fought under.

As for his fight against Alvarez- Eddie was the one who (stupidly) took the fight to the ground. If Aoki fights more wrestling-based fighters (of which there are plenty in the UFC) who have a better strategy I think it’s very much in question as to whether he could submit them.

by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 16, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Aoki is like 6 1 160’ish. I see him as a bad matchup for most LW’s in the UFC ala nate diaz is currently showing with his height and reach and legs, etc.

I don’t think it would matter if he had to fight in an octagon with shorts. He is just skilled.

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s certainly a factor if the fight goes to the ground. My point is that he has yet to show that he can figure out a way (besides maybe brainwashing Eddie Alvarez) to consistently take the fight to the ground against a good wrestler. Pulling guard can only take you so far. And if he has to rely on his striking- well…yeah.

by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 16, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He brought JZ down over and over again

JZ would stomp a mudhole through the UFC’s LW division.

Gimme 1 Round!

by skwirrl on Jan 16, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sean Sherk might have something to say about that.

by subo on Jan 17, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He would be the only one subo

JZ is Sherk with a little worse wrestling and MUCH more devastating striking

Gimme 1 Round!

by skwirrl on Jan 17, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, T-Rex arms are an impediment. I’m just kind of a Sherk mark because a) his style is brutally effective and b) people hate his style.

by subo on Jan 17, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't mind Sherk at all actually

I’m no mark for him but I respect a fighter that wants to be exciting but knows that he can win a decision and that winning takes precedence. Sherk doesn’t just lay there on the ground either. I call his style Pass’n’Pray. He just doesn’t have long enough arms to do any effective GnP. I don’t know if its because he can’t get leverage or what but really I don’t care. Sherk is a great fighter and I won’t take that away from him because he’s a decision guy. Its the boxing fan in me.

I think JZ is alot like Sherk in power and similar in wrestling ability except his strikes are devastating whereas Sherks are not.

Gimme 1 Round!

by skwirrl on Jan 17, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

to add to your point…

how can these fighters be ranked when they aren’t even drug tested???

by mmalogic on Jan 16, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The pants are on roids.

by KneeToTheFace on Jan 16, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The pants don't affect his ability to be knocked out - Hansen proved it can be done.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by themachiavellian on Jan 16, 2009 1:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

Hansen had a joke of a fight against Kultar Gil before going in against a weary Aoki. I don’t see why people keep referring to this fight as if its more relevant than their previous, which is certainly is not. I like Joachim Hansen, but both fighters fighting fresh, Aoki wins 8 times out of 10.

by KneeToTheFace on Jan 16, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Aoki is arguably the best LW in the world not named BJ

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Humor

Eddie Bravo is a stoner. They (we) like to say silly things. Bravo knows Aoki is awesome. The pants do help w/ slipperiness but he was joking around.

Also, most of you probably shouldnt play poker either.

by Headkick on Jan 16, 2009 3:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

lol. truth.

by lbk on Jan 16, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

PC: Aoki recently beat Eddie Alvarez in Japan and had a very successful
year. I know he is one of the fighters you really like because he
utilizes that rubber guard. That has to make you proud to see him have
so much success while using your bread and butter?

EB: It’s awesome. A lot of guys are using the rubber guard now; a lot of
guys. But what makes Aoki different are the pants. The pants just make
the rubber guard more effective. Slipperiness is the enemy of
submission. It would be like a wide receiver in the NFL going out to
play a very important game in the rain with no gloves. Will he play that
game with no gloves? Hell no! If he didn’t wear gloves, the coach would
probably fire him. It’s no question Aoki is so effective with his rubber
guard right now because of the pants.

Maybe I’m thick (and no, I’m not a poker player), but it’s difficult for me to see any sarcasm here, especially when all we have are written quotes- we can’t hear any voice inflection or see any body language. Based only on his words, I’m not sure how anyone would come to the conclusion that he is joking.

by BilboMcFonzie on Jan 16, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Eddie gave a really good example there too.

by Benicio on Jan 16, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.

by BJJDenver on Jan 16, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have seen him fight with out the pants and he’s still hella badass. His latest win over Alvarez Had nothing to do with his pants. He goes from being in side control to nearly ripping Alvarezs leg off in like two seconds.

by J_Maddux on Jan 16, 2009 4:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs