Is UFC 93 Worth Watching?
by Kid Nate on Jan 15, 2009 10:07 AM EST
in MMA Events
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PrintI was reading Sherdog's Pro's Pick feature on the Rich Franklin vs Dan Henderson fight when I caught this cheap shot that UFC unfriend Matt Lindland slipped in:
Matt Lindland: Dan. Did you even need to ask? If it wasn’t for that fight, I doubt I would even watch this one.
That reminded me of this Josh Gross column I meant to comment on:
On Saturday in Dublin, Ireland, mixed martial arts begins its 2009 campaign in earnest with the first of three pay-per-view attractions that will test the limits of the hardest of the hardcore fan's discretionary spending.
Considering the timing -- a new president, tasked with pulling the country out of a once-in-a-lifetime economic downturn, will be sworn in Jan. 20 -- it feels mighty audacious of the sport's promoters to ask consumers to spend more than $150 in a three-week span.
Of the many things that can be linked to boxing's decline in relevance and stature in the U.S., few are as obvious as the saturation of the sport on pay-per-view. It's foolish to think MMA has moved beyond such a reaction. There's no denying the passion of fight fans, but faced with the frequency with which they're asked to fork over more than $50 to watch the best fighters clash, many will be confronted with serious pocketbook considerations in the coming weeks and months.
...
Neither (headlinging) bout, nor any of the undercard matches, comes off as something fans particularly need to buy. Billed as a "dream card" for longtime MMA fans, UFC 93 feels more like a speed bump on the way to Jan. 24's heavyweight showdown between Fedor Emelianenko and Andrei Arlovski, and the following week's mega-fight pitting B.J. Penn against Georges St. Pierre.
And that of course reminded me of Zak Woods' post on the topic:
It doesn't help that European cards have taken on the status of 1.5 versions of Fight Nights for some time now. Part of it comes from featuring so many U.K. fighters, and clearly the level of MMA talent is disproportionate between the U.S. and the U.K. One can't really blame the UFC for featuring the local boys while reserving their better cards for their economic power base in the North American market.
UFC 93 is trapped between a rock and a hard place. UFC 92 just broke the UFC's PPV record with two title fights and the third chapter of the Silva-Rampage trilogy. UFC 94 has the potential to shatter all UFC records, and will truly live up to the status of 'Super Bowl' fight. That leaves UFC 93 all alone on tape delay, to be DVR'd and watched the next morning in preparation for football.
Personally, I'm marking out for the damn thing: Franklin vs Henderson, Shogun vs Coleman, Kang vs Belcher, that's plenty of intrigue right there.
But at the same time I have no choice, I've got to live blog it for BloodyElbow AND I get the stream free from Yahoo so I don't have to pay $50 so I'm not actually a fair judge.
What's your take?
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i choose the 4th option.. Yes ofcourse ill watch.. Its Free in my country…
If i was in the US, i probably pick option 2 cause 100 bucks a month for UFC is kinda steep in my opinion.. Or maybe thats because of the exchange rate? haha.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
speaking of polls..
sorry for the shameless plug.. but if you guys havnt voted in the bloodyelbow funnybone contest, vote now! :).. sorry again nate..
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 15, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Philippines..
I think its free in germany and japan too?
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Jan 15, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
I was waiting for someone to mention this fight
this is second to the Main event for me, Lytle is hard to put away and I wanna see if Davis can circle away from the fence and keep Lytle exchanging for 3 rounds
all you gotta do is...
Matt Lindland is a jackass. He was asked to predict the main event, but had to toss a snide comment in as well.
For the longest time, many online folks were sure that Matt was fired so as to protect Rich Franklin. The reality is that he is difficult to deal with and was shown the door because too many folks in the UFC were tied of him.
This is a pretty nice card: The main event is a good match-up, we have the UFC debut of Kang, Lytle/Davis has two very good strikers going at it, Kampmann is making his WW debut…this is a pretty solid card.
Matt Lindland had something bad to say about the UFC?
Stop the motherfucking presses!
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Worth watching, yes...
Worth $50.00? Nope. Worth watching for free the next day over the internet, while i’m sitting at my desk at work? Absolutely.
Could not agree more! although I have to admit Kang Belcher is going to be an awsome fight, as will Hendo v Franklin. Not intrusted in Coleman.
by Erich Vowell on Jan 15, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
I hardly consider watching it for free at a bar nefarious. That said, it isn’t always ‘free’ if I order a beer, but highly discounted at the least. Would I pay $50 for this card? Nope. Despite 91 and 92’s successes as great cards, I wouldn’t have paid $50 for those either. I’d probably drop a Grant on 94, but I’ll probably go to the bar for that one too to ensure my local watering hole keeps showing them.
You know, Ive thought of watching at a bar (or to be honest, at Hooters) but when you think about it, your not really watching it for free. I, myself, would probably get the at least an hour to a half to an hour early, to make sure I get a seat. Then I’d get hungry, so you order a burger, wings or whatever. Then you have to drink, right? Sure you do. So you down beers, mixed drinks, or whatever for the next three or so hours. Then you have to tip. What if you bring a date? She has to eat or drink as well. So next thing you know, you’ve spent what you would have (or more) if you had purchased the PPV.
For this reason exactly is why I’ll be at home watching it. Either way it goes I’ll be out of $50.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jan 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
I should’ve included the bar option. For our purposes, I’d count that as yes and $50 because the beer alone will come to near that if you’re like me.
I’m not sure I could drink $50 of beer in one sitting, but that’s because I like to remember the main event.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Granted you may not intend to drink $50 worth of beer but you know the prices for drinks will up a bit higher than usual and if you want to eat anything that will cost you. Are you going to really enjoy the fight at a bar anyways? I have found that I don’t enjoy the fight at all in a bar – too noisy and too many uneducated drunk viewers.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
There are a couple of really good bars to watch it at in my town. I get there early and get a booth with its own television, which kind of helps limit the contact with the idiots, and the only time it’s ever been TOO noisy was becauase there was a Canucks (ugh) game on at the same time.
All in all, I’d prefer to watch at home. But I don’t have a television. For 92, I swiped a projector from work, streamed it through my laptop, and projected it on my living room wall. THAT was awesome. But my second-best option is the pub.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Well my option for every UFC event is watch it the next day via said “nefarious” means because in my country I have no other option. Neither paid nor free. I don’t complain though. I just stay out of BE until I do watch it. Since the sport has zero visibility here, there’s no danger of getting spoilers.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
Nice. To be fair there are some (very) local fights here and there, but they’re mostly promoted by the brazilian gyms here, so it’s not really out of exposure, more like i was “brought” here, and it still has more of a Vale Tudo feel to it rather than actual MMA. You try to mention UFC or MMA to anyone, they won’t know what you’re talking about. On a side note there’s a Gracie Barra gym very near my school and looking to get into it within the next couple of months.
Regarding PPVs, we do get some for free here but they’re all wrasslin’ (and with a 1 month delay).
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Jan 15, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
i was brought here = it was brought here
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Jan 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
Option 2
I second that watching the event at a bar is not considered nefarious. With that said, tell me more about these nefarious means of watching the fight live.
LOL
Had this card been promoted by anyone but the UFC, people would be talking how good of a card it actually is… Hendo vs. Franklin, the return of Shogun, Dennis Kang’s debut, Kampman at WW, Lytle vs. Davis…
People are so fickle that it’s hilarious…
and there is some beef
there between Shogun and coleman, No? Was there even a countdown for this PPV?
all you gotta do is...
ok, i’ll play.
Hendo/Franklin has crappy implications in the 185 division with all roads leading to Anderson Silva. don’t care to see either of them fight him again.
Shogun is fighting a washed up 44 year old that hasn’t fought in MMA since 06 and is looking for a quick payday. um..who cares?
Kang has looked crappy the last few fights and is fighting a overhyped young fighter.
Lytle / Davis..2 neanderthals that will walk into punches. Great.
Will Kammpman even make the PPV telecast?
Oh yeah, tape delay. Fantastic.
i pretty much agree
minus lytle/davis
i think we might see a surprise submission in this one
im not impressed with your performance
lmao
You have some very valid points!
Other than enjoying the competition and the challenges, Randy basically is doing the same as Coleman and Fighting for the Paydays!
And I personally enjoy watching the young “OVERHYPED” fighters because wasn’t everyone at some point.
all you gotta do is...
You speak the truth…
The affliction card is like IFL plus fedor and you have these geeks jerking off in their moms basement for it
The Affliction card is MUCH better than 93.
Not even close.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
I want to see Babalu fight, but mostly in a can’t-look-away-from-the-car-wreck sort of way. He bored his way to a win at the first Affliction show, then won on a lucky cut in his last fight, and when he does dominate an opponent, he usually seems to do something stupid (like refuse to let go of a choke). He’s entertaining in all the wrong ways, but I can’t not watch.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
This card is the reason...
…that the UFC should have a tv deal with ESPN, or expand their contract with Spike, to show all European cards for free. Had this card been free, sandwiched between 92 and 94, we would be tripping over ourselves singing the UFC’s praises. It also would have been a great place to push UFC 94.
UFC 93 is definately worth it!
But my wife said I can only order 2 :(
UFC 93 -BW3’s
Affliction DoR – Purchasing
Margarito VS Mosely – DVRing FTW!
UFC 94 -Purchasing
Busy Combat Sports schedule = Happy Me :)
Don’t forget about the WEC
Varner-Cerrone is going to be great
by SplitBreast on Jan 15, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Make sure you show up way early to BW3's for a UFC
they get fuckin PACKED. At least around here they do.
Gimme 1 Round!
What up Fenix
I gotta ask…What’s a BW3? I’m pretty sure I get it, just want to be sure.
Thanks buddy!
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jan 15, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think people just freak out when a card doesn’t feature a title fight. At the same time, I’m pleased that there are many folks on here who see this PPV with the proverbial glass half full (despite the poll that suggests otherwise).
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I find the remarks in the main post kind of disturbing to be quite honest. Matt Lindland is ridiculously biased and really shouldn’t have even been asked, his over the top snide remark shouldn’t have been printed, it has nothing to do with the fight.
Josh Gross’ remarks are even more troublesome. He’s a journalist on a national platform that-spelling errors aside-is acting as though its somehow the UFC’s fault that there are three potential PPVs this month. Affliction has nothing to do with the UFC and if the UFC wants to have a PPV every weekend that is their choice, just as it is mine to choose whether or not to purchase. For Mr. Gross to grandstand and not even mention the plethora of free events that Zuffa has given us in December, January and February, nor to mention that the first half of the Afflliction show is free as well, is sensationalist journalism at its finest.
Where do I stand?
Looks like a great card from where I’m sitting. It was just a little over two years ago that Franklin/Henderson was an absolute dream matchup, Shogun rematching Coleman is a rematch nearly three years in the making, Davis/Lytle are promising fireworks and Kang’s recent record aside is a very nice addition to the MW roster.
Of the three cards this month the questionable buy for me would be the Affliction show. Aside from Fedor/Arlovski, a match I see Fedor winning very quickly, there is little of interest in my opine.
Josh Gross’ remarks are even more troublesome. He’s a journalist on a national platform that-spelling errors aside-is acting as though its somehow the UFC’s fault that there are three potential PPVs this month. Affliction has nothing to do with the UFC and if the UFC wants to have a PPV every weekend that is their choice, just as it is mine to choose whether or not to purchase. For Mr. Gross to grandstand and not even mention the plethora of free events that Zuffa has given us in December, January and February, nor to mention that the first half of the Afflliction show is free as well, is sensationalist journalism at its finest.
I guess he’s still grinding that ax.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
by Brett Jones on Jan 15, 2009 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
That is a weak accusation. All Gross is pointing out is that there are three PPVs in three consecutive weeks, and many don’t have the $$$ for that. He isn’t blaming the UFC, he is pointing to UFC 93 as the weakest card, and least worthy of spending money on. Zuffa putting on free events has nothing to do with the focus of his piece at all, so what does that even matter? The idea that he has to cheer lead for them to counter his critical viewpoint on UFC 93 is ridiculous.
Its incredible how when someone writes anything but a glowing approval of the UFC, they get egged and wrote off as “biased”. Gross’ article is 100 percent fair.
If you don’t spend $150 on mma ppvs this month, then you are not a real mma fan, lol!
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
On one hand, its true that Matt Lindland has an ax to grind with the UFC. That said, not all his criticism is illegitimate. For all the talk of people loving Davis/Lytle and calling that a PPV level fight, I seriously doubt you’d see them say the same thing about a theoretical Healy/Markham II.
And? Neither Healy nor Markham are as highly ranked as Davis or Lytle, according to Fightmatrix. So the PPV-quality of that matchup has nothing to do with the PPV-quality of Davis/Lytle.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
“UFC 93 a speed bump to affliction”???
This guy gets more retarded everyday.
Afflictions show is nothing more than the IFL plus Fedor….
Is it a good card? Yes…
But if you compare the whole card objectively to UFC 93 you’ll see through the Bull Shit… besides fedor v arlovski there’s nothing else… I’d compare that to Hendo vs Franklin any day.
I don’t think it’s a bad card and if I weren’t helping people move on Saturday, I’d probably order it.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
I’ll be watching the Barrett Jackson auction (not everything revolves around MMA), it’s an interesting card but too many shows combined with still being Christmas broke combined with something else to watch shuffled this show out.
I don’t think this card was put there to have an affect on the Affliction show, heck I thought it was scheduled before the Affliction show. Of course the Affliction show’s real issue has nothing at all to do with the UFC it has to do with their own lack of advertising.
can someone
please let me know of any of theses free “nefarious” means for streaming fights? or is it not cool to post links like that? i dont want to get anyone in trouble im just poor and want to watch the fight.
its not cool to post on here
just do a little bit of digging and youll find nefarious means
im not impressed with your performance
Live stream free from Yahoo?
How many bloggers get the PPVs free from Yahoo anyway? I’m not saying this of Rome specifically, who is pretty fair, but I’m curious how many bloggers out there that rip Yahoo on a regular basic then turn around and accept free PPVs from them.
who gets it free from yahoo?
They charge just like everyone else, and it would be pointless for a blogger to stream it for free anyway, if your job is reporting on MMA you should get the expenses reimbursed from your boss or deduct it when you file your taxes. it may not work for smaller websites that have no revenue, but it should for real websites.
ufc 93 >>>>>> Affliction 2
id rather pay 50bucks for 93 than affliction 2. there is only one fight on affliction 2 that means a damn thing and thats fedor/aa.
LOL! NO, it is not.
Affliction 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UFC 93.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
Right, because IFL had the likes of Bablu, Barnett, Fedor, Arlovski, etc.
Oh wait, no they didn’t.
Markham, Millers, etc
UFC has a bunch of IFL fighters as well in their cards.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
LOL with the UFC reject remarks.
Rampage and Anderson Silva were PRIDE rejects in that same “mmalogic” you have there.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
WTF??!!!
Woah woah woah! Whats all this about? MMA is MMA! Hell, sometimes I watch those M1 challenges without know who the fuck is who. If you’re a fan of it then you should’nt be trashing Affliction 2 which is really a stacked card IMO. Yeah, I hate to quote Tom Atencio but there is some great action there.
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 15, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
KID NATE
i wouldn’t mind seeing the same kind of poll for Affliction’s event, since that seems to be the one 93 is being compared to by lindland and gross and some of the fans.
Affliction 2 vs UFC 93
AFFLICTION 2: JANUARY 24, 2009
venue: Honda Center in Anaheim, California
Pay-Per-View Bouts:
-Fedor Emelianenko (#1 HW in the World)* vs. Andrei Arlovski (#4 HW in the World)*
-Josh Barnett (#2 HW in the World)* vs. Gilbert Yvel
-Matt Lindland (#3 MW in the World)* vs. Vitor Belfort
-Renato “Babalu” Sobral (Top 15 LHW) vs. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou (Top 15 LHW)
-Chris Horodecki vs. Dan Lauzon
-Paul Buentello vs. Kiril “Baby Fedor” Sidelnikov
HDNet Bouts:
-Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (#6 LHW in the World)* vs. Vladimir Matyushenko (Top 20 LHW)
-Jay Hieron vs. Jason High
-L.C. Davis vs. Bao Quach
-Antonio Duarte vs. Albert Rios
-Brett Cooper vs. Patrick Speight
UFC 93: JANUARY 17, 2009
venue: O2 Arena in Dublin, Ireland
Main Card Bouts:
-Rich Franklin (#9 LHW in the World)* vs. Dan Henderson (#7 MW in the World)*
-Mauricio “Shogun” Rua (Top 20 LHW) vs. Mark Coleman (44 Years Old)
-Denis Kang vs. Alan Belcher
-Rousimar Palhares vs. Jeremy Horn
-Marcus Davis vs. Chris Lytle
Preliminary Bouts:
-Martin Kampmann vs. Alexandre Barros
-Ivan Serati vs. Thomasz Drwal
-Tom Egan vs. John Hathaway
-Nate Mohr vs. Denis Siver
-Eric Schafer vs. Antonio Mendes
Josh Barnett is #2 HW?
please use an ounce of common sense… I wont even comment on the rest of the shit,
I took the rankings from what MMAWeekly had.
So, forward your comments on to them.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Using MMAWeekly’s rankings makes you look biased, so if that isn’t your intention, you shouldn’t use them. Those rankings get outright laughed at on a regular basis.
Matt Lindland at 3 is a complete joke.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t disagree with that. Lindland at #3 is just one symptom of how much MMAWeekly’s rankings suck.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
The point is that Lindland is a pretty damn good middle weight. Is Vitor Belfort? Don’t know, I suppose, but if he wins, he’s definitely worth talking about at 185. Its an infinitely better fight than Palhares/Horn.
Agreed. Palhares/Horn is an embarrassment for a main card, frankly.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions
L.C. Davis vs. Bao Quach and Lil Nog vs Vladimir are more interesting than 90% of the UFC 93 card.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
They’re also not part of the PPV.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
You are correct.
They are FREE to HDNet subscribers in awesome HD quality.
I for one, am a happy HDNet subscriber. :)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Not even mentioning that I will be able to watch the ENTIRE Affliction 2 card in HD through HDNet and on PPV, and also that UFC 93 will be delayed, so we will already know who won by the time they show it on TV, it is pretty obvious that Affliction 2 is the must buy hands down before Penn vs GSP.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
It’s only delayed if you elect to watch it on delay. I’m pretty sure you can order it live.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
To be honest looking at the card I’d call it middle of the road for a MMA event. The Fedor vs AA fight is a big one but Barnett vs Yvel is a complete joke, Matt Lindland’s last fight was all but unwatchable, Babalu vs Sokoudjou could be good but it also has the potential to turn into a train wreck. Yea it’s probably a better card than UFC 93 but if you take off Fedor vs AA it’s an average card at best.
What kind of a card would UFC 93 be if you take Franklin vs Hendo away?
Pretty bad obviously.
Also, I like how no one mentions the other great fights for Affliction:
Lil Nog vs Vlad
LC Davs vs Bao Quach
Chris Horodecki vs. Dan Lauzon
Buentello vs Baby Fedor
Duarte vs Rios
All these fights are really good and very competitive.
More so than the undercard for UFC 93.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that it is a better card than UFC 93 but then UFC 93 is a pretty weak card in it’s own right. I’m not trying to compare Affliction to one show I am comparing it to what we are used to seeing in general.
I personally consider the HDnet fights part of the Affliction PPV as they aren’t part of the PPV, they are a free event on tv. To be honest the only one of the fights you listed that interested me was Lil Nog vs Vlad. The rest might be good fights but they aren’t anything to write home about.
P.S.
Since when is a card considered middle of the road when about 10 Top Ranked fighters are in a card and the best HWs in the world?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Well when half the top ranked fighters are fighting below their level and the actual star power on the card just doesn’t exist(seriously Tito doing commentary is the biggest draw on the card). Babalu vs Sokoudjou is really a top fight only on paper at this point, Lindland vs Belfort would of been a big fight in 2004, Barnett vs Yvel is such a joke that it takes away from the event and Lil Nog vs Vlad is a freebee that has no affect at all on anyone’s decision to buy the ppv or not. It’s a similar issue that the first Affliction show had, lots of top fighters but the match ups just aren’t very appealing.
I think that was applicable to Affliction 1, not so Affliction 2.
Seriously, other than Barnett vs Yvel, what matchups are not appealing?
I think all the other matchups are great.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
I have very little interest in watching Lindland fight anyone and Babalu vs Soku is interesting but it’s more interesting from the potential train wreck angle at this point. Horodecki vs.Lauzon would be a real interesting undercard fight and Buentello vs Sidelnikov is a pure m-1 hype and I have to wonder why it is even on the card?
So there you go 6 fights: one huge fight, one joke, one Lindland fight, one potential train wreck, a good undercard fight and a complete question mark of a fight. Honestly the first Affliction main card was less completive but it was more appealing.
People are complaining about UFC 93 which has seven Top 25 fighters on the card. Affliction 2 has six on their PPV. If you include the HDNet fights (which you shouldn’t for purposes of deciding which PPV is superior because you can watch the HDNet fights regardless of which PPV you buy), then Affliction would take the lead.
I’d say the two PPV are comparable and that everyone who has HDNet should watch those fights.
And so you don’t have to look, the ranked fighters on PPV are #1 Fedor Emelianenko, #2 Andrei Arlovski, #3 Josh Barnett, #7 Matt Lindland, #14 Renato Sobral, #17 Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou, #8 Rich Franklin, #3 Dan Henderson, #9 Mauricio Rua, #21 Denis Kang, #13 Marcus Davis, #19 Chris Lytle and #20 Martin Kampmann.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
If you look at the top 3 ranked fighters in each PPV:
Affliction has the #1, #2, and #3 fighters on the card.
UFC has #3, #8, and #9 fighters on the card.
:)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
True, but 3vs8 is probably a more competitive fight than 1vs2. Personally, I’m not buying either PPV because I’ll be busy, I just saw an opportunity to quote our rankings and did so.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, good rankings. Although, Vitor is practically #25-#26 in your rankings as well.
He should be in the top 20 if he beats Lindland, which will be a big opportunity for Vitor.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
He’s #26, but I didn’t feel like scanning for the other non-top-25 guys.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Key point largely ignored by the Affliction fanboys. Any UFC gets an immediate bump due to their vastly superior selling skills.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Isn’t UFC 94 supposed to be great because the best lightweight and welterweight are fighting each other? Seriously, if rankings don’t matter, why even watch UFC? Might as well watch KOTC DVDs all day.
Rankings matter. They just aren’t everything, which is the argument MMASupremacy is making here. Affliction does have the better ranked fighters, but UFC has the better production and storytelling. All told, its arguable which event will be superior. Personally I will prefer just about any UFC event over Affliction, because I think their storytelling and production are absolute shit. Your mileage may vary.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Say what, where did I say rankings are everything?
I never made that argument. I am using rankings to show that their are a lot of good fighters on the card, more so than UFC 93. Obviously match making plays a big role in how good fights turn out.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Affliction 2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UFC 93
If you don’t think rankings are everything, care to explain why you have Affliction 2 so far ahead of UFC 93? Most of the non-ranking factors favor the UFC.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
So, Michael, would you say that the PRIDE events of 2000-2005 has the modern UFC beat? Bigger crowds! Better video packages! More per capita viewers!
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
No because they could never get 100k to 1m plus homes to spend 50 bucks for a show…
If they could the japanese orgs wouldnt be buying.
Why would PRIDE have wanted to be a PPV exclusive company? They got huge checks from Fuji and were on national TV, getting watched by 20% or more of the households. If the UFC could get a 20 share, they wouldn’t be on PPV either.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
The US audience is significantly larger than the Japanese audience a 20% of tv households there isn’t the same as 20% of tv households here, you can’t directly compare ratings. Still we can look at the WWE which has done very high ratings in the past (and still does good ones) but always ran with the PPV model because in the US the real money for these kind of events is made in PPV not in tv contracts. The UFC will continue with PPV regardless of tv ratings because there is no comparison (and I’m sure Pride’s huge Fuji checks weren’t as huge as people seem to think they were). Unless the UFC one day hits NBA/NFL viewerships levels we won’t see an end to PPV.
The US audience is larger in that there are more people in the US, but the TV audience for even the often disappointing DREAM events at this point is much larger than virtually any of the MMA events historically have been in the US.
As for the comparison with the WWE, everyone knows the WWE gets horrible ad rates because its assumed that the audience are the lower castes of western society. As such, no network has ever offered the kind of money to them that they have the major stick and ball sports, major golf events, or NASCAR. If a network felt that they could make enough money televising “megacards” for pro wrestling, they would spend it, and they don’t.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I think what is most telling currently in the US is that the NFL has started it’s own pay network for games trying to get in on that revenue source, if they thought they could take it a step further and charge per game they would(as Boxing did when it went from network to Pay Channel to Pay per view).
There’s nothing stopping them, MLB, the NBA, NHL, etc from doing so right now. The reason they haven’t is because the networks pay a ton of guaranteed money and it would kill their commercial sponsorships.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
What is stopping them is fear that the fan base won’t follow because they are used to getting it for free(the NFL gets flack for their own network). You don’t have to give up the network money or the commercial sponsorships because you don’t have to do every event as a PPV but you do have to actually get people to pay up and people who have got NFL games for free for generations are going to have a fit if anyone ever ask them to pay to watch a game on tv.
MMA doesn’t have that problem because they are used to paying for events. If MMA can get onto network tv great but it will be a way to build for larger ppv audiences because that is where the money is.
What is stopping them is fear that the fan base won’t follow because they are used to getting it for free(the NFL gets flack for their own network).
Its not fear, it outright knowledge they won’t follow them, and the advertisers are well aware of it too, which is why the only sports outside of boxing and MMA that do or have run PPV in this country are those that have extremely small fanbases (Soccer and Rugby pre-digital cable).
In any case, none of this changes the fact that PRIDE was viewed by more people and had events with far larger live attendance.
It also doesn’t change that there is a difference in size, population density, culture, viewing habits and the way tv is rated and presented between the two countries. What Pride did in Japan as a business is irrelevant to what the UFC may or may not one day do in the US.
It also doesn’t change the fact that regardless of how many people watched Pride there was a real issue with their business structure because without that one tv contract they completly fell apart.
I never thought their storytelling was spectacular, but it was certainly good. I mean hell, its not like I’m saying Pride was terrible at it. Affliction are the guys that can’t tell their ass from a hole in the ground.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
What is the storytelling behind Belcher/Kang? Seriously. The UFC has spent time pushing two fights, one of which isn’t even competitive. You’re telling me you care more about that fight (Coleman/Rua) than you do, I dunno, any of the actually good, competitive fights between solid competitors on the Affliction card?
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
The storyline is if yet another overseas fighter will come to the UFC amid much fanfare only to get bounced the fuck around.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
And so a guy who lost his last three fights for major promotions fighting in the UFC is a big storyline? You can manufacture the same about, god, most of the Affliction fights. Olympic Silver Medalist vs. Resurgent Phenom? sounds more interesting to me than Guy Who Was Sorta Good 3 Years Ago And Just Beat Marvin Eastman vs. Some Dude With Good Muscle Definition.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
If by ‘sorta good’ you mean ‘20+ fight unbeaten streak’… let’s see what he can do, for Christ’s sake.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2009 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
He wasn’t considered the best middleweight in PRIDE, win streak or not. You know that and I know that. PRIDE hit bad times, his woman died of an OD, and he wound up getting plowed over with an uppercut by a guy renowned for everything but his striking. He does some more nothing and gets tapped in 3 minutes. In between all that, he beats a couple bums in Korea that no one has ever hear of.
No diss on Denis Kang, but what happened to him was basically like if Vitor Ribiero came back in March and KOed standing by Shinya Aoki. How much would it really mean if he decided to show up in the UFC a year after that? Especially if he came back to face, say, Spencer Fisher….
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I’m really, really hesitant to write off fighters. You can check what I’ve had to say about Chuck, Nog, etc – I am loathe to declare a guy ‘done’. I’m interested in anyone that’s shown the level of consistent quality performances that Kang has – whether or not he was the best, which admittedly he was not – to see if they can come back.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
When Kang was at his best, he was not at the top. Most of the guys he’s beaten have been well established in retrospect to not really be top guys themselves. If you look at that run and compare it to Jorge Santiago’s current run, you’ll see a lot of similar names. The difference is that Santiago is doing that now and Kang peaked in ’06.
I’ll also give you credit that guys have come back from seemingly being done to be major factors again. Couture did it. Matt Serra did it. Frank Mir did it. Even if Kang does win, Belcher is not much of a factor at 185 right now. He’d have to win very impressively to stir interest in being a major competitor down the line.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
You can manufacture the same about, god, most of the Affliction fights.
Exactly. You can. Is Affliction actually doing so? No, they aren’t. The only people manufacturing the storylines for Affliction are the fanboys and some of the bloggers. But they aren’t a fraction as good at conveying those storylines to other people as the UFC hype machine is.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that they aren’t. I still don’t know why this should make UFC 93 a better event.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Because what people feel about an event matters. It isn’t all logic and rankings.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
I do, because I love watching Rua fight and think he’s awesome, and I’m not a huge fan of any of the fighters on the Affliction card.
You may be more intrigued by and interested in the Affliction fights than the UFC fights. But thats you. The online intelligentsia and fanboys drive the Affliction storylines. The UFC, UFC fans, and everybody else are all involved in the UFC storylines.
Any assessment of the relative quality of a fightcard is a deeply personal thing. And thats what the UFC is good at: making fights personal to people who don’t wander all over the boards. Affliction is absolute shit at it.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and the storytelling behind Kang/Belcher is pretty simple and straightforward. Is Kang going to come in, be successful, and eventually be a threat to Anderson Silva’s crown? Or is Belcher going to take Kang down another notch while taking a step up on his own?
Sobral/Sokoudjou is a good fight between top fighters. But where do either really go from there? It doesn’t have a story, its just a collision between two guys. That may be enough for you, but a lot of people want more.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
I like Shogun plenty, but this isn’t much different than watching him face some of the no-hopers he was thrown in with in PRIDE. People crap on that matchmaking now, but when the UFC does it, its great storytelling. Bah.
What you’re saying about Kang is interchangeable with literally anyone the UFC has put in the Octagon. Goldie has had to sit in the studio and speak with a straight face about Justin McCully trying to work his way back into “title contention”, as if he was ever there to begin with. What does Sokoudjou/Sobral mean? One of those guys could end up back in the UFC with a win, should Affliction go under. For Babalu, he might even be able to use that as cache with Strikeforce (who he’s the light heavyweight champion of), especially if they ever do run live cards, or any of the other burgeoning promoters around. Hell, its just a good fight! Apparently you don’t need to know any more than that for Lytle/Davis.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
What you’re saying about Kang is interchangeable with literally anyone the UFC has put in the Octagon. Goldie has had to sit in the studio and speak with a straight face about Justin McCully trying to work his way back into "title contention"
Sheer nonsense. Kang is a very good fighter who hit a rough streak, and no attempt at downplaying his accomplishments will make him in any way comparable to Justin McCully. You may not think he is any good, but that is what you don’t seem to get: this isn’t about you or me. This is about MMA fans as a whole and in general. We’re outliers, in terms of our knowledge of MMA, our time spent educating ourselves about fighters, our interest in all the different promotions of MMA.
I like the UFC, and whenever the UFC puts out material, I watch it, because they’ve earned my loyalty and interest. Affliction hasn’t. Thats reality, and it impacts how people perceive events. The UFC has miles of goodwill built up with MMA fans, and they build on it every time out. I’ve seen one or two commercials for the new Affliction show. I’ve seen probably twenty for UFC 93, as well as the countdown show, the various articles on UFC.com and elsewhere.
You can’t argue or logic your way to proving that Affliction’s show is superior or has equivalent, because its more than just what you write on a message board. Sure, you just put up a story for Sokoudjou/Sobral. Thats also probably the only place I’ve heard it. Nothing from Affliction. No video, no interviews. What good is a storyline if nobody bothers to tell it? With the UFC, it gets told. And told, and told, and told. And we’re talking about the undercard with Soko/Sobral and Belcher/Kang. Affliction has sort of told about Fedor/Andrei. The UFC has fucking TOLD about Hendo and Franklin and Shogun and Coleman.
If a person like me, who is one of the 1% or so of MMA fans who are extremely knowledgeable about all the fighters and shows, has been more impacted by the UFC’s storytelling for UFC 93 than Affliction’s storytelling for Day of Reckoning, how do you think Joe Sixpack feels about those shows, even if he’s even heard of Affliction’s MMA promotion?
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
Sheer nonsense. Kang is a very good fighter who hit a rough streak, and no attempt at downplaying his accomplishments will make him in any way comparable to Justin McCully.
Replace McCully with Jason Black, Marcus Aurelio, or any other number of washouts who, at some point, clearly weren’t going to ascend to that next level. Does it make that much of a difference?
You can’t argue or logic your way to proving that Affliction’s show is superior or has equivalent, because its more than just what you write on a message board.
Of course I can’t prove it. I can certainly argue for it, though.
If a person like me, who is one of the 1% or so of MMA fans who are extremely knowledgeable about all the fighters and shows, has been more impacted by the UFC’s storytelling for UFC 93 than Affliction’s storytelling for Day of Reckoning, how do you think Joe Sixpack feels about those shows,
What does Joe Sixpack’s opinion have to do with your opinion? Do you only buy albums that sell a million copies and watch movies that are #1 at the box office? Arguing for quality on the basis of popularity doesn’t get you very far.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Does it make that much of a difference?
Yes, it does. Maybe not to you. Other people? Yes.
What does Joe Sixpack’s opinion have to do with your opinion? Do you only buy albums that sell a million copies and watch movies that are #1 at the box office? Arguing for quality on the basis of popularity doesn’t get you very far.
Actually, when we’re arguing about a promotion’s ability to get messages out to a bunch of people, yeah, popularity is the basic judge of success.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, when we’re arguing about a promotion’s ability to get messages out to a bunch of people, yeah, popularity is the basic judge of success.
The thing is that I’m not arguing this. I’m agreeing with you. Affliction did a lousy job promoting you say? No ads? No hype? Yup. You’re right. I don’t personally need a billboard to tell me that I can care about seeing Fedor Emelianenko though.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t personally need a billboard to tell me that I can care about seeing Fedor Emelianenko though.
Bingo. It matters to many, many, many people. It matters to you less because you’re extremely educated about the fighters involved and why you should be interested in them.
Why are you arguing that the UFC doesn’t have better storytelling, then turn around and admit that Affliction does a lousy job of it?
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not arguing anything re: the UFC’s ability to tell stories. Obviously they do a great job given the general reaction to Rua/Coleman online among informed fans. By the same token, I’m sure that Transformers was the best damn popcorn movie Michael Bay could make of a 1980s cartoon series with anthropomorphic robots featuring X number of product inserts.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
Storytelling that important to you?
That is the cornerstone of WWE and Boxing.
Sell a fight based on fake grudges, etc, which the UFC has tried to do with Coleman vs Shogun and GSP vs Serra.
I care to see the actual fights. And the argument that UFC xx is better than any other card because of storytelling and presentation is pretty useless since you are basically comparing any UFC card to any non UFC card, and you would always have the UFC card as being better because of your requirements. If I wanted compelling storytelling, fake grudges, and presentation, WWE still does a good job at that.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 16, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think the storytelling is less important than the idea that each fight is potentially part of the road to a title shot.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 16, 2009 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Returning to the essence of the argument here, is there any way a UFC card, regardless of the quality, could ever not beat a startup promotion’s card?
Probably not. Not that it isn’t possible, simply that any promotion willing to tell the story knows what they’re doing, and won’t overspend to get top fighters. And any organization that overspends to get top fighters, like Affliction, isn’t bright enough to do a good job with the promotion and storytelling.
If Affliction promoted well, told the stories well, and generally knew what they were doing, I’d be all over their card. But they don’t.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 16, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
I see that as part of the story, Richard. The UFC generally does a very good job of explaining why fights matter. And no, they don’t always have to do it by manufacturing fake grudges, MMASupremacy. There are plenty of other stories the UFC tells. But they do tell them, unlike Affliction (for the most part).
by Michaelthebox on Jan 16, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that storytelling matters, but to me personally it isn’t on the same level as the “road to the title” aspect.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 17, 2009 2:58 AM EST up reply actions
UFC 93 sold out in 4 days… Affliction hasn’t sold 4 tickets.
Which event is the speed bump??? more like a fucking pimple.
LOL!
UFC is in Ireland, do they have a choice? It’s either this or nothing.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
If Affliction 2 was in Ireland it would do just as well as 93, for sure.
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Jan 15, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
So why hasn’t Tom picked up on this?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Shipping costs.
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Jan 15, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Affliction wants to go to Canada in 2009, I believe.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe “wants to go to Canada” was meant as a euphemism for “will die.”
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
I like that.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Good point, there’s nothing to do in all of Dublin besides UFC.
by Michael Rome on Jan 15, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Serious or Sarcasm?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
I am not sure, but I have friends in Ireland and it rains ALL THE TIME and they really don’t have much to do. Also, my comment was not having a choice in terms of MMA.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions
Makes sense. I have to go there some day. :)
by xFenixKnightx on Jan 15, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, no one is disputing UFC’s brand power.
No one is saying that Affliction’s brand is better than the UFC’s.
BUT, we CAN say that Affliction 2 is much better than UFC 93, IMO.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
On paper the afflcition card is almost as good as UFC 93…
But we have to remember this is not something we read – this is something we watch and afflictions production was horrid last event.
It was like watching king of the cage with Fedor.
Affliction was great LIVE.
I was there and it was one of the best MMA events I have ever been to.
Also, Showtime and Golden Boy are now taking care of Afflictions production.
Also, LOL! at “affliction card is almost as good as UFC 93…”
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
How can anyone bitch about UFC 93 then turn around and hype up Affliction 2?, 93 is a much better card from top to bottom than A2. Sometimes it really amazes me how many people just seem bitter and angry at the UFC and most of them write for Sherdog.com.
Affliction 2 is a MUCH better card than UFC 93.
Sorry.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Check the poll results.
70% will not be spending $50 to purchase it.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions
For that to be meaningful at all, there would have to be another poll about Affliction 2.
by Rundownloser on Jan 15, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, there should, but we don’t have one.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
We do now.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
At the moment, buying neither is winning.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t be the only one who intends not to watch either event.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
There are plenty of people who don’t need to delude themselves into thinking Mark Coleman/Shogun II is a good fight?
It’s a shame one of them wasn’t Shogun. Still Shogun vs the elderly is a bit better than Barnett vs the slimeball.
Not really when people would actually get satisfactioin from Barnett beating the slimeball who deserves a beating.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
A slimeball getting a big paycheck and a license to fight in the US, not to mention the silly crap about him getting a shot a Fedor if he happens to win. It’s BS all around.
I can live with the BS of that one fight for how good the rest of the card is.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
As I posted earlier I don’t find much beyond Fedor vs AA super compelling on the main card, I just think this match brings down the quality of the whole show.
I have to say, I really don’t have any interest in seeing Yvel fight, not even if he gets beat down. There are some guys who are just too fucking stupid/evil/worthless for me to care to even seen them lose. Like that neo-nazi asshole with the swastica on his chest. I wouldn’t even pay to see Manhoef punch him in the face.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Shogun vs Coleman has a compelling back story to give it a bit of interest as a grudge match but they aren’t pretending it’s anything more than Shogun’s big comeback. Barnett vs Yvel is supposed to be some kind of contenders match for Fedor’s belt or some silly crap like that.
Eh, they are not hyping that fight really.
Plus, they are setting up Fedor vs Barnett.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
I’d rather see Fedor vs. Barnett now rather than have them build to it.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Can’t blame them.
American MMA fans don’t know who Josh Barnett is.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
When you aren’t necessarily going to be around in a month, it just strikes me as silly to build toward a fight instead of just doing it.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jan 15, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
What are you talking about. Building up to Gina vs Cyborg and Kimbo Bigfoot worked perfectly for Pro Elite
People are still waiting for Gina vs Cyborg, so yes, that actually did work. EliteXC NEVER build up a Kimbo vs Bigfoot fight. You must mean Kimbo vs Rogers.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Whatever, whoever, the point is that it didn’t work at all for Elite,because they’re dead.
If you aren’t going to last 3 months, you shouldn’t be planning for the next year and acting like everything is ok.
Well, they are planning an event for March or April this year.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions
Carano vs. Cyborg.
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Jan 16, 2009 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
Unless Gilbert pulls an…Yvel, for lack of a better word.
by Rundownloser on Jan 15, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
The more exposure, the better. Specially since Showtime and HDNet will be covering the event and showing the fights.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Cro Cop vs Gonzaga was supposed to be a set up for Cro Cop vs Randy but that didn’t work out as planned. At least Gabe could be pushed as a legitimate challenger but seriously Gilbert Yvel?? With all the supposed heavyweight talent they have signed they dig up Gilbert Yvel?? I’m sure Roy Nelson and Ben Rothwell were thrilled to hear that all they could come up with was Gilbert Yvel and I’m sure WAMMA is just thrilled that it was ever even mentioned that the “winner” would fight Fedor.
Here’s the problem with Gross’s column.
Calling UFC 93 a speedbump before Affliction is the essence of living in the MMA bubble. By what standard is it a speedbump? I expect it to at least double the buyrate of Affliction, even as a low Euro buyrate for a card without a title match. It has a lot more long term significance since the company won’t die, and outside the small universe of hardcore fans the significance of it is not that big. You may hate to hear it, but a lot more people will be impacted by the coach of Team USA than by who wins Fedor-Andrei, unless the winner ends up in the UFC.
Even if Affliction survives, it’s a promotion with no real divisions, and they will run 3 shows or so in the year. There’s no real divisional consequence to any fights besides the main event, nobody really moves up or down in the promotion by winning or losing. Sok for example has a one fight contract. It’s hard to make the show feel significant.
by Michael Rome on Jan 15, 2009 8:30 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
Here I am, finishing this ridiculous thread, and you drop knowledge just as I am about to start typing. You have saved me time by saying all that needed to be said – a four-deep HW division (and that’s if you’re nice and include Rothwell) and scattered fighters throughout, with no real chance for advancement. Rec’d.
by Derek Suboticki on Jan 15, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
The same can be said about any org thats not the UFC.
You have to think of it as fighters in the UFC, and fighters outside of the UFC.
Obviously, this doesn’t apply to the casual fan, but we can see Overeem vs Cro Cop in DREAM and Overeem vs Fedor in Affliction. I would be happy. Affliction doesn’t need to solely own every fighter or every fight the way the UFC does. Mousassi is going to fight for DREAM and Affliction. It’s a good gig for fighters and the American fans get to experience these good fighters outside of the UFC. If Affliction was gone, we would not be as privileged. That is my take anyways as an MMA fan. I see Affliction as a NYE event where it happens every 3 months, but I know the card will be good. The WEC only puts on a card every 3 months, so I know each show they put will be to their best quality. I don’t find any problems with either.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
I believe fightetrs fight exclusive contracts for that country, so, fighters from DREAM or WVR can fight in Japan and they could also be signed to Affliction and fight in the US. This is huge for the fighters and the fans. Potentially, someone will take Affliction’s place if they do go under. The most likely candidate will be Strikeforce, and we would still see the same thing happen. The hope for these companies is that through the growth of MMA and growth of media channels like HDNet and Showtime, a different fanbase will slowly grow (which EliteXC was able to do while they were running) and support not only the UFC, but these other orgs. It is a bit of a different mentality than what the UFC has to do to be successful since they already have brand strength and loyal fans, as can be seen in this and many other websites.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 15, 2009 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
Most EliteXC fights had some kind of meaning, they were trying to build divisions and rivalries and chamions that people could follow, Strikeforce seems to be building the same as is Dream and WVR. Affliction isn’t building toward anything but having a card of some sort below occasional Fedor fights. Most of the fights just feel irrelevant to the actual sport of MMA and if Affliction is lucky they will do another show in the next 4 to 6 months that will again revolve around Fedor and a bunch of guys filling out the rest of the card for the sake of a paycheck.
by who me on Jan 15, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t get that feeling, sorry.
It’s funny that you say that because they have only had ONE show.
I don’t think people realize how hard it is to achieve everything you mentioned off of only one show. It took EliteXC a good year and network deals to achieve that.
Strikeforce is not even there yet, and DREAM and WVR are still striving to get there since they are less than a year old.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 16, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Affliction MMA was announced in May of 2008, that’s 8 months of existence and they have had one show. In EliteXC’s first 8 months they had 5 events, Strikeforce had 3 events, Dream had 6 events and crowned two champions and WVR had 6 events. Only having one event isn’t an excuse for Affliction it’s a big part of the problem, Dream and WVR are only 3 months older than Affliction. The first year is vital and Affliction has done one show, cancelled one show and glommed one fight and ten million commercials onto an EliteXC show (commercials they never followed up on). On top of that even if Affliction does survive I don’t think they are planning another show till Spring/Summer.
Michrome, why do you need a “promotion with real divisions” to have a significant feeling MMA event?
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
Human psychology. You can argue it all you want, but a lot of people feel it.
by Michaelthebox on Jan 15, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
What would pro football be if they didn’t keep season records and have play offs? A game is a game is a game but when there is a division and they are playing for a future title shot is what makes it interesting. The storyline in combat sports isn’t just who wins the fight it is who is the champion, heck what’s the point of worrying about what the guys fighting on the Affliction card’s rankings are if it isn’t for seeing who is the best? Unless you have a division and guys working towards belts then it’s just fighting.
Every promoter on earth at this point has belts. Does MFC having belts make their fights more meaningful? How about KOTC, or Spirit MC, or Cage Rage, or Hooknshoot and so on? Almost none of those belts mean anything. If wanting to see two of the best fighters in the world go at it without a belt on the line meaning more to me than seeing a couple guys who aren’t even in the ballpark fight for a prop is wrong, then I don’t want to be right.
by D.Capitated on Jan 15, 2009 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking for myself:
It’s not so much the belts but the actual divisions. I’m excited about all the fights, even the ones between unranked fighters on UFC 93. In the UFC, I’ll be seeing a number of them develop and grow as athletes and fighters. I’ll see as they gain new skills and see how high up the ladder they can climb. Ultimately, this is partially what builds interest in fighters and adds more significance to their bouts, regardless of their ranking status at the moment.
With Affliction, it is more similar to a boxing card in that many of the undercard bouts are seemingly filler for the marquee. They will be enjoyable, though that will be ephemeral.
I will enjoy both cards and honestly don’t think that one is better than the other. That said, UFC 93 will be more impactful outside the Fedor/Arlovski scrap.
by Rundownloser on Jan 15, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
Yes it does mean something because being a champion means something. What’s the point of a competition sport of any kind if it isn’t to win a title and prove you are the best? Yes the bigger orgs belts are more important than the smaller orgs belts but almost every big show is headlined by a title fight because titles are important. It’s about comparing fighters in an org against other fighters in that organization and the story that tells about all the fights, heck just the fact that all those small orgs you mentioned thought it was important enough to have a title belt should tell you something.
Look at Matt Lindland in Affliction, what is he fighting for? Is he trying to prove he’s the best and rise to the top of his sport or is he just there to pick up a paycheck? Yea the Affliction guys are very highley rated fighters and that means a lot more than lowly belts in regional promotions but honestly besides Fedor what are any of them working towards. What is next for Matt Lindland? What is going on beyond just that one fight?
Yes it does mean something because being a champion means something. What’s the point of a competition sport of any kind if it isn’t to win a title and prove you are the best?
You admit they aren’t the best and so do I. Would having a belt change that? Would lying to the viewers make them better? Who here respects WAMMA? I’m not interested in them playing some charade for the benefit of a “storyline”.
Unless Tom Atencio has a time machine and can go back and change how they established themselves from the start there is nothing they can do at this point. I am not saying what Affliction should do I am pointing out a problem with the way their shows feel. There isn’t a feel that they are a sports organization or that they are building to future match ups and titles or that they are trying to build their own stars and until they actually have regular shows and actually create a league structure they aren’t going to have that.
Sokoudjou and Rogerio are both on the card, if they each win it sets up an interesting rematch with a guy who was a somewhat recognizable face in the UFC, and another who looks just like one. And considering the high level of competition Affliction has already imported, I certainly wouldn’t write them off as having no matchmaking future. Hell, Mousasi said he was looking at either a LHW or HW fight on Affliction 3 if it happens in the summer. For me, that adds juice to all the fights in those divisions on the card. And who is to say they can’t snag someone like Jorge Santiago or even Robbie Lawler to fight the Lindland/Belfort winner? It is not as bleak competitively as you might think.
I think, considering what fighters are out there and available, Affliction put together one hell of an undercard, and Fedor vs. Arlovski is the biggest heavyweight MMA fight since 2005. Considering the overabundance of news on Affliction that is strictly focused on the business side, I don’t blame Gross for giving analysis from inside the bubble, so to speak. He is still right; in terms of the actual progression of the sport and historical significance, UFC 93 is nothing compared to Day of Reckoning.
See I don’t hear that stuff from Affliction, they don’t build any buzz from show to show, the whole thing still feels like a one off event not an actual promotion. Maybe they should hire you instead of having Atencio out there bumbling through interviews and press conferences.
Maybe because they have only had one show?
People want the world, but all good things come with patience.
It took the UFC years and years to build up divisions, and it will take some time for Strikeforce, WVR, DREAM, Affliction, etc to do the same.
Serioiusly, who can name all the top 3 contenders in any other org other than the UFC?
Even there, its not so clear in certain classes.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jan 16, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
Aoki, Alvarez and Kawajiri for Hansen’s belt off the top of my head(no clue if I spelled Kawajiri’s name right) and I don’t have HDnet or keep up with the Japanese fight scene in that much detail. I don’t care for tournaments but I must admit that the Dream tournaments built a real feel to the divisions they were pushing and the story behind those fights was incredibly compelling.
As I said above Dream and WVR are only 3 months older than Affliction and look at the number of events and the feel of the promotions already. In EliteXC’s history we were already had the Shamrock vs Baroni co-promotion, two ShoXC shows and were getting ready for the Uprising show in Hawaii. It’s not that I want the world out of Affliction but it’s already been darn near a year for them and the only thing to show for it is two shows and a dozen press conferences, doing 1 show every 4 to 6 months is never going to develop them as anything but a one off event promotion even if they do last.
Heh, I feel you on that. Atencio seems overwhelmed, and in his efforts to get his angles across, he usually ends up getting it all wrong. I think they need to focus on the simple things that got fans so excited in the first place; the fact that they are bringing together many of the top fighters in the vast world of non-Zuffa MMA, and putting them together in otherwise inconceivably good match ups. In terms of stars, I think they should hope that Belfort knocks Lindland out in exciting fashion, because he has all the tools to be “that guy”: great fighting style, looks good, very articulate english speaker, has an extraordinary personal history, plus he is one of the few legendary KO artists in UFC history.
It has seemed like Atencio and company have been just playing at being MMA promoters from the start. It’s all about attention and being buddy buddy with fighters instead of actually trying to build something that will last. A real MMA mind in charge from the start may of made something of this but is seems like it’s just too late now. EliteXC was a horrible mess of a company but at least they seemed to have an actual goal of trying to build a sport promotion, I just can’t get excited about Affliction beyond them getting Fedor real fights because they aren’t building up anything to look forward to. Divisions and title belts makes it lseem like a actual league that will be there for you in the future, Affliction feels like a mid-season replacement show on the CW, no sense in getting invested because it won’t be around for long.
I agree completly on Belfort, Lindland is dull as paint drying it’s just that I have to wonder if Belfort can compete (Lindland is some damn talented dull as paint). Belfort is a guy that you could build on for a future (if Affliction actually was putting any effort into that), Lindland just isn’t.
And a serious question, anyone got any experience in Setanta Sports channel? I am thinking about getting that as a way to watch UFC events for a cheaper cost than ordering the PPV. Just recently moved and dont have the network of friends close enough to pitch in for a viewing party. Bars = smoke = I cannot do that anymore with my health issues.
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