Will Rashad ever overcome his label as 'boring?'
A lot of people (myself included) think of Rashad as a 'boring' fighter, because when he started his career he would sit back on his dominant wrestling and just grind out a win with very little excitement along the way. Then when he decided to engage in stand up, all he did was counter-punch with very little (or no) explosiveness.
The guy obviously has loads of physical talent, and is consistently improving on previous performances to make himself a better fighter. Actually, at this point in his career his striking label probably has to be closer to "Explosive" than "Boring," when you take into account his last two fights against top-flight competition. Pulling the KTFO card on Chuck Liddell is no mean feat, and knocking Forrest off hard enough that he couldn't defend himself for fifteen seconds or so is pretty impressive.
But my real question is this: Will Rashad's labels, earned in his early career stain his current and later career image? Make no mistake, I will probably never be a Rashad fan, since I believe he's earned every negative label applied to him thus far (which have been pointed, but few). But it seems to me that the guy *should* be celebrated more than he is. Could it be that waiting until the apex of your career to become exciting is a recipe for a permanent villainous image? Think of it this way...
Fighter A takes a career path that most of us are familiar with, which is to start fast and slow down as competition improves. This guy establishes his dominance over inferior competition, hits a snag or three along the way in opponents who are tailor-made to take advantage of his weaknesses, but improves enough along the way to rocket himself all the way to becoming the division champion. This guy is more than likely a huge fan favorite, because they've been there with him throughout the struggles, and he's provided excitement along the way. The fact that his last couple of fights haven't had any finishes is accepted because he's had to adapt to higher level competition. We all know he's got the power/submissions to finish fights if they go that direction, and nobody wants to mess with him there any more, so he fights long, tactical battles and wins decisions over (seemingly) superior opponents
Fighter B takes the opposite career path, and starts off slowly. He racks up win afer win after win against good opponents, and finds himself undefeated after awhile. But there's a catch...this guy doesn't make fights exciting. He *never* drives the action, and while it's obvious he's got ridiculous talent, he continues to take the safe path to victory. He experiences the odd bump along the way, but continues his undefeated string, even managing to avoid a loss to a legendary villain in the sport, instead pulling a draw. This one moment could have changed his career forever, but for whatever reason, he couldn't even *win* the fight. Eventually, he gets a shot at another legendary fighter, but this one is a fan favorite. By now, his game is rounding into form and his physical tools are ready to translate into results inside the cage. He takes the safe path to start his fight, but ends up absolutely destroying the fan favorite in perhaps the most brutal fashion ever witnessed. He earns a title shot for this performance, but the fans are far from pleased. He basically repeats this performance in his title fight (albeit with less fireworks), and wins the championship in decisive fashion.
Fighter A is going to recieve accolades throughout his career, because he first grabbed attention by being exciting. We don't care about the record. We care that every time we watch him, he delivers on our money and attention. Fighter B is really only famous for being exceptionally un-exciting, all the way up to the point that our beloved heroes could finally put that first L on his record, and what does he do? He decides *THAT* is the time to utterly destroy and humiliate our fan favorites.
Color me skeptical, but I'm seriously doubting Rashad ever receives the same type of love from the fans as guys like Forrest and Chuck, no matter what he does from here on out.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Well written and well thought out. Plus Rashad often comes off as cocky and insulting in the cage. However, if he keeps up the cockiness, he could develop into a very good anti-favorite like Tito.
by iiowyn on
Jan 1, 2009 11:13 PM EST
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I absolutely agree with this.
The problem is, so many of these guys really balk at the notion of being the villain. Rashad doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy who will be able to go Tito Ortiz, or even Brock Lesnar during pre-fight hype.
But that is the best available path I can see for him to establish his place as a marketing draw. Good point.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 1, 2009 11:32 PM EST
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Rashads wrestling is far from dominant
You’ve allowed the UFC to lie to you if you believe that. He just hasn’t faced a damn good wrestler yet. And at 205 it will probably be a while before he does unless Hendo continues to fight at 205.
by skwirrl on
Jan 1, 2009 11:15 PM EST
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You miss an important point, skwirrl.
In MMA, it’s not the ‘true’ wrestling ability of a fighter that matters. It’s how well he can apply it to his particular fights, and frankly Rashad has done an A-level job of this. He’s known exactly when to use it and when not to, in order to keep the fight from getting away from him.
I absolutely agree that there are many superior wrestlers in MMA. And I also agree that if Rashad fought one of these guys (like Henderson) then he would likely be at a disadvantage in the wrestling department. But I think I was correct in my assertion that his wrestling has been dominant to this point, since he’s effectively used it to control pretty much ever fight he’s been in, sans the last two.
I guess in my mind there’s a difference between ‘dominant’ and ‘world-class.’ Josh Koscheck has world-class wrestling, so does Randy Couture. Rashad Evans and Chuck Liddell have dominant wrestling. And in the end, a defensive gameplan like Chuck’s or Rashad’s relies a lot less on being superior stylistically than it does on controlling the terrain of a fight. Rashad controls the terrain of every fight he’s in, and he does it with his wrestling. To me, that’s dominant.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 1, 2009 11:30 PM EST
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Ridiculous.
Rashad has fought plenty of good wrestlers.
by George Lucas on
Jan 2, 2009 3:25 PM EST
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Evans isn't boring by any means...
The fact is that he has used his abilities to remain an undefeated fighter in a highly competitive organization and now he is a champion in that division.
No one can speak ill of his methods of winning as long as they are not breaking or bending the rules. He’s faced competitors that are better than him in a lot of categories yet he finds a way to win.
I wouldn’t call him boring…. but his arrogance and disrespect to his opponents… I will call him a classless, Kanye West wannabe.
by Gunslinger20 on
Jan 2, 2009 1:08 AM EST
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To be clear,
there’s not much that can be said to disparage his accomplishments to this point. It’s simply the way he goes about notching his belt which has soured many fans. He’s still sporting a goose egg in the loss column, and it’s not like he’s been fed cans.
I also think that if today’s Rashad went back and fought Tito at that time, he KO’s him pretty easily.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 2, 2009 4:26 AM EST
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Allow me to be clear..
I wasn’t disparaging his accomplishments…. he deserves to be commended for what he has done but I don’t care who you are, you don’t grab your crotch and blow a kiss to your opponent. He’s a prick…. a great athelte… but a major prick. He wants to get attention in that regard instead of being a great champion, thats his choice.
I didn’t respect Tito when he acted like an ass at somene elses expense… I won’t respect Rashad Evans either.
by Gunslinger20 on
Jan 2, 2009 11:50 PM EST
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Great Kanye West Reference
Dana white doesn’t care about black people!
all you gotta do is...
by imapimp08 on
Jan 3, 2009 10:45 AM EST
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I believe he will
He’ll just have to flatten out a few MORE elite LHWs. My, how picky some fans are.
Oh, and rec’d.
by subo on
Jan 2, 2009 2:30 AM EST
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You point out a possible, maybe even likely
way for him to remove the sour taste from the fanbase’s collective mouth. I would recommend they feed him someone that is not a top 5 most popular fighter next, though (Machida makes sense here, but Rashad doesn’t figure to make an exciting fight out of it). Rampage is a pretty big fan fave, and if they pair those two up, it would likely make for a wonderful fight…but it might also make it even harder to like/love Rashad.
Thanks for the rec :)
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 2, 2009 4:21 AM EST
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I don't think he's as boring as much as he's....
opportunistic. He doesn’t have the take-down and GnP style of a GSP or a Tito. He’s more of a “stay alive while I wait for an opportunity or mistake from my opponent” fighter. If not for Forrest falling on the kick, I believe Forrest grinds out a boring five round decision. This is not to take away from his work on the ground in Forrest’s “lazy” guard. I just don’t see Rashad pressing a fight as much as he reacts to one and this makes him boring, or appear to be a boring fighter.
by SizeDoesMatter on
Jan 2, 2009 4:10 AM EST
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I think Rashad's power actually created the opportunity for him to employ the GnP.
Four fights ago, nobody would be talking about Rashad’s game-changing striking power, but here we are today with incontrovertible evidence which says Rashad has really improved his striking power.
And I also think you’re correct with your appraisal of his style, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake, rather than charging forward and driving the action.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 2, 2009 4:23 AM EST
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Like your name, size does matter for Rashad.
He will be outsized most times, so this means that he can’t necessarily float around the outside and outpoint someone over 5 rounds, or that he can just run them over and GnP them.
But he can continue to create problems for his opponents with his unpredictability, great head movement and footwork. His style is centered around capitalizing on mistakes, but these mistakes happen because Rashad pours on the pressure and gets you out of your comfort zone. Forrest had two full rounds of throwing punch punch kick combos, and eventually Rashad turned on the pressure and caught Forrest when he threw a weak kick – perhaps because he wasn’t expecting it to land anyway.
by bigweeze on
Jan 2, 2009 12:35 PM EST
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I was very critical in the past of how boring I believed Rashad to be and how he always fought not to lose. Now I don’t think he’s boring at all. His striking has improved by a crazy amount and he throws hard and fast and messes people up.
Does this mean I like him now? Hells no. Which I believe, as you pointed out a stigma from being boring all that time. So I guess I don’t dislike Rashad because hes boring, because he isnt, I just dislike him because he was boring. And will…forever.
by SamCupitt on
Jan 2, 2009 5:52 AM EST
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If you still think Rashad is a boring fighter, or carries that label currently, you’re not paying very close attention.
Rashad is anything but boring. He’s tremendously skilled, very athletic, extremely powerful, and follows Team Jackson’s gameplans perfectly.
Evans is a great, exciting fighter who finishes people.
by Hardcharger on
Jan 2, 2009 9:58 AM EST
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I agree. He stayed active that entire fight. He was bringing the pace to Forrest. Not boring at all…
BTW – Some of Rashad’s actions do annoy me, but part of any sport comes with a bit of smack talking and even “showboating”. Ball players do it, boxers do it. It can be done to get into your opponents head, or just mentally psyche yourself up to compete better. I do believe that there is a thin line between getting into your opponents head and just plain disrespect. Rashad doesn’t smack talk as much as he makes provocative gestures. I think it was fine that he did the "kiss off" move to Forrest and then popped him with a left hook :-) That let his opponent know – “You just put it on me and I’m still here!”
With that said – I have ALWAYS liked Rashad every since I first saw him on TUF. I remember how impressed I was when he had a talk with Melvin Guillard about his bad attitude. Rashad essentially told Melvin that he should be humble and not trash talk as much because at any time he could be beaten.
by Fight Genius on
Jan 2, 2009 10:27 AM EST
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Evans is very similar to Koscheck, with much better boxing and movement and slightly worse wrestling.
It’s a shame that they have spent most of their early days as “boring” fighters that the fans have never taken to, as I find them both to be quite exciting now. They are true mixed martial artists and should be the role models for the NCAA stars coming behind them.
by bigweeze on
Jan 2, 2009 12:40 PM EST
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“Color me skeptical, but I’m seriously doubting Rashad ever receives the same type of love from the fans as guys like Forrest and Chuck, no matter what he does from here on out.”
Funny you mention color, because that is precisely what makes guys like Forrest and Chuck and Randy and Brock so beloved by mainstream fans. It’s flat out a race issue.
Guys like Rashad or Anderson silva or Miguel Torres or Thiago Alves..etc. Will never get he love that good white fighters receive.
by lbk on
Jan 2, 2009 1:45 PM EST
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What about Rampage? He’s one of the biggest stars in the UFC right now.
There are a number of reasons that a fighter gets fans, but one of the biggest is excitement. Rashad has only been exciting for less than a year. He has become pretty exciting and has more than a bit of personality: he’ll get fans. Hell, if Koscheck can, anybody can.
by Rundownloser on
Jan 2, 2009 3:48 PM EST
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Page got booed when he came out against Wandy. Wandy was DEF the crowd fave that night. And it wasn’t even close.
by lbk on
Jan 2, 2009 3:54 PM EST
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Even if I accept that, you’re argument is still flawed. Ostensibly, Wand shouldn’t have any fans by your argument, yet you’re now suggesting that he was a crowd favorite.
by Rundownloser on
Jan 2, 2009 4:01 PM EST
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Look, are you that foolish to think that black athletes still are not seen as the faves by most of the people that watch MMA? i mean come on. Forrest is a huge dork and has never been amazing in there yet he gets more support than a guy like Page or Evans will ever get. If you thik Forrest is on the same level as those guys you’re crazy.
Racism is a very real thing and my reasoning for guys like Evans being labeled as “boring” (Evans more boring than Forrrest? Really?) is that racism is very real in the MMA community. Disagree all you like, that is certainly your choice.
by lbk on
Jan 2, 2009 8:01 PM EST
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Maybe I'm totally off-base, but my
“Fighter A vs. Fighter B” metaphor was based on Forrest vs. Rashad. I honestly think the difference in their fighting careers is what separates them on the fame-scale.
If Rashad has blasted onto the scene and pulled his Salmon/Liddell/Griffin brutal finishes when we first saw him, I believe he would be far more popular than he is today. As fans, we can tolerate a fighter not ‘letting it all hang out’ against top competition. We understand why a guy like Forrest has to adjust his gameplan to fight guys like Rampage. We even respect this change, since it requires a rather humbling self-assessment followed by a re-tooling.
What we don’t respect is a fighter who only does enough to win. A guy who never lays it all on the line, because he knows of a safer way. That disgusts and infuriates us as fans, because we aren’t paying for pure sport. Ever. We’re paying for the opportunity to witness something memorable, something dramatic, and yes..something spectacular.
I’m not declaring Rashad a sand-bagger, but if you look at his early career, it’s not at all unreasonable to draw that conclusion. Forrest, on the other hand, first came into collective consciousness when he engaged in an honest-to-God scary war with Bonnar, in which there was absolutely nothing held in reserve. We admire that. Seeing someone who isn’t afraid to stick his nose in there and take a shot in order to deliver one is admirable.
As to the ‘black athlete’ tirade, it’s tired. And old. I’m about as red-neck as anyone on this board, and my favorite ‘spect in MMA is Anthony Johnson. I always hated Liddell. Kevin Jackson was my hero after showing that you don’t need to instantly tap to an armbar. Rampage is basically Kevin Jackson with spiky blond hair and blue/green eyes (prize points to everyone who gets this dorky reference), and he knows how to sell his persona. I love the guy.
And Forrest, today, is exactly on the same level as Rashad. Rashad took advantage of his power edge, but if he hadn’t been able to land that shot and put Forrest down, Forrest chops his leg out from under him and the fight is over. Well, after another two rounds ;)
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 2, 2009 8:21 PM EST
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Racism exists, period.
Even in MMA, and it is a determining factor in the popularity of fighters. However, it is not the only determining factor. A fighter’s style, his personality, his physicality, and fame from outside sources all factor in as well (on top of a mountain of other things). Additionally, a fighter’s traits in these other categories can override this racism: Rampage Jackson, Roger Huerta, Tito Ortiz, etc.
Chuck was famous for being a dominant champ with a string of awesome knockouts and big victories. Brock is a former pro-wrestler with a lot of name recognition and is a truly unique physical specimen. Randy is an endearing figure who has gotten a lot of attention from outside sources. Forrest got a lot of screen time on TUF, has a lot of personality, and has been consistently exciting (if somewhat of a brawler in his first few outings).
Racism exists and it would be foolish to suggest otherwise. But it would also be foolish to say that “it’s flat out a race issue.”
by Rundownloser on
Jan 2, 2009 8:32 PM EST
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Ok, no doubt now...
You really don’t give a rats ass about anything that is discussed on these forums…. you just go from thread to thread and start shit… is your life really that sad?
Alistair Overeem is a juicer and now all UFC fans are racists? I bet you liked that Dr. Mayeda’s thread about how UFC fans are racist against the Japanese….
Quit being a douche bag and maybe actually attempt to not be a pain in the ass..
by Gunslinger20 on
Jan 2, 2009 11:55 PM EST
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You’re out of line. No personal insults. Make your arguments without attacking the other commenters or you’ll find yourself banned.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on
Jan 3, 2009 12:13 AM EST
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People get banned somewhat frequently.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on
Jan 3, 2009 12:32 AM EST
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Look, you’re a solid contributor here, but you just need to remain civil. If you feel someone is trolling, flag their comment, don’t insult them.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on
Jan 3, 2009 12:32 AM EST
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Ok, well I apologize for the “drunk with power” remark… you’re just doing your job.
I don’t apologize for what I said about the other guy though…. but I am not going to flag him considering he’s following the rules and I didn’t.
by Gunslinger20 on
Jan 3, 2009 12:41 AM EST
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We have relatively few rules here. No name calling, threats or discussion of politics.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on
Jan 3, 2009 1:00 AM EST
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Maybe its just the fact that Rashad has no Budo
Not that he’s black. I GUARANTEE YOU, When King Mo ends up in the UFC, (and he will and soon), he will be HUGE. Because he has personality and he’s an exciting and dynamic fighter. It won’t mean shit that he’s black other than you can tell he revels in and is very proud of the person he is.
Gimme 1 Round!
by skwirrl on
Jan 3, 2009 3:54 AM EST
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You know, I can;t stand people like you. You attack others for having conflicting views. point out one post I have made here where I was trolling and not presenting a thought out argument. Grow up man. You REALLY think racism plays no role in any of the fighters popularity? I want to move to your bubble.
by lbk on
Jan 3, 2009 9:33 PM EST
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Well...
Its a problem you’re just gonna have to deal with.
I know that racism plays no role in their popularity IN MY EYES AND MY OPINION. From what I’ve read from the other posters on here, they don’t think racism plays a role either.
Move on man.
by Gunslinger20 on
Jan 3, 2009 11:13 PM EST
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And by the way...
your last post there is trolling.
I admitted my mistake already and I’ve moved on but seems like you have some stuff to work on…. not everything is controversial or has to be controversial but your posts seem to try and create heat and anger when it isn’t necessary. You do attack people…. saying “I want to move your bubble” or “How naive can you be”. You’re insulting my intelligence and it isn’t appreciated which is why I reacted hastily. That was my mistake, thankfully its one that I won’t make again because I will just be skipping over whatever you have to say from now on.
Lots of other great posters that are able to make their points without resorting to demeaning others.
by Gunslinger20 on
Jan 3, 2009 11:19 PM EST
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I suppose I’m in the minority in that I’ve always been a fan of Evans…even on TUF I was rooting for him.
http://mma4real.net/
by Tha Realness on
Jan 2, 2009 1:57 PM EST
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Nope, ive always been a fan of his.
My 2nd favorite current fighter, behind GSP.
by Slica on
Jan 2, 2009 2:37 PM EST
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Same here Kelvin...
I guess II started rooting for him when it was pretty evident that Hughes didn’t like him. And I like what Hughes doesn’t.
by cauliflower_ears on
Jan 3, 2009 1:18 PM EST
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I dont think Evans is boring at all. Name someone in the UFC with more highlight reel knockouts than Evans in the last year.
If you don’t like him, that’s fine…. but maybe we need to talk about how one defines boring…
by Headkick on
Jan 2, 2009 2:51 PM EST
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I think he overcame that label after exciting fights with liddell and griffin. Question is, will Machida ever overcome that label?
by metaldome on
Jan 2, 2009 5:30 PM EST
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I'm guessing that Machida never will overcome his label.
Rashad has a good chance to make converts of us non-believers, but he’s got to keep up the spectacular finishes of top opponents for awhile. The perfect record isn’t important in MMA. The performance is what’s most important. Wandy isn’t exactly setting the world on fire inside the octagon, but he’s a fan fave because he consistently provides exciting, memorable matches.
As sportsmen, they all want to win. It’s part of what drives them through their insane workout camps. But they also (need to) understand that they have to entertain as well as succeed. Machida hasn’t shown any willingness to alter his game to be more entertaining, but Rashad has. (yes, I’m aware Rashad’s alterations are more about his general advancement as a fighter..and that’s fine. but you have to excite us at some point in your career, and sooner is better than later).
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Jan 2, 2009 8:26 PM EST
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