UFC 88: The Greatest Card Ever?

by mma_dude on Sep 5, 2008 7:02 PM EDT

Criteria: The following criteria is relevant & poignant: A great card is filled with great fights. A great fight is a fight in which it is hard to predict the winner OR one in which the underdog wins. This card has that in spades.

1. Liddell/Evans (Liddell is the favorite) -- I don't think we've ever seen liddell fight a Freestyle Wrestler of Evans' caliber, but the consensus seems to be that Liddell will be able to prevent the takedown. I think not.

2. Franklin/Hamill (Franklin is the favorite) -- Franklin, for the first time in a while, is fighting a guy who is significantly bigger. Also, Hamill is an accomplished wrestler who thrives on physically overpowering opponents. The consensus is that Rich's striking ability will stop Hamill. I think this is misled because people are so use to seeing Rich as the bigger and stronger guy. He isn't bigger, or stronger, in this fight.

3. Henderson/Palhares (Henderson is the favorite) -- Henderson has excellent wrestling, lots of experience, and knock out power. The consensus is that he will use his wrestling to achieve top position and his experience to avoid a submission. This leaves his superior striking for a TKO victory over Palhares. I don't think anybody truly appreciates how good Palhares BJJ is. Here is a guy who wants to be on his back and he's fighting a guy who will put him on his back.

4. Kampmann/Marquardt (This one varies but Marquardt was the favorite and still is on many sites) -- Marquardt is well rounded with standout Jiu Jitsu. Kampmann is well rounded with standout Striking. The consensus is difficult to come to in this fight but the majority believe that this fight will end up on the ground and that Marquardt's superior JJ will prevail. I say: does Marquardt really want to take it to the canvas, he has had delusions of striking in the past. If he stands, he will realize that Kampmann DOES have knock out power (contrary to many pundits). Also, Kampmann is no slouch on the ground.

So, if all these fights end in upset, it will be hard to deny UFC 88's place in the history books as one of the greatest cards of all time.

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Sorry...

One of the greatest cards of all time??

Sorry to disagree here, but even if the upsets you predict actually happen this will by far still be one of the weakest cards ever put together. Almost every match is “lopsided” and following your above definition of a great fight – all of the fights are predictable by fairly large margins. There isn’t one fight on this card that screams MUST SEE. I will give you the fact that there will be some buzz if we see several upsets.

I too am looking for reasons to get hyped up for this event, but with all respect I think your statement is quite a stretch.

-AH

by Fight Genius on Sep 5, 2008 8:00 PM EDT 0 recs

"...and following your above definition of a great fight - all of the fights are predictable by fairly large margins."

REALLY!? What, exactly, are you predicting? That there will be a winner and a loser.

I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!

by mma_dude on Sep 5, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up 0 recs

Lmao.

UFC 91 murders this card already. And UFC 84 murders this one also. UFC 91 will be the greatest card ever if Rampage/Wandy happens.

Even then, the Affliction card tops all.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Sep 5, 2008 8:32 PM EDT 0 recs

Your criteria is wrong

A great card isn’t just “evenly matched” fighters or fights where underdogs win—by that criteria, I can take any yahoos off the street and as long as the matchmaking is even, it’ll be “the greatest card ever.” A great card has to have GREAT fighters, big name fighters, in meaningful fights that will have a major impact on the sport at large (championships getting contested is a good start). I actually consider this one of the weakest cards the UFC has put on lately.

by thetakeover on Sep 5, 2008 9:04 PM EDT 0 recs

+1.

Great outline as to what constitutes a great card. 91 certainly fits that mold, and even Affliction: Banned fits that mold, even though I’m no Affliction fan. 84 was pretty much epic, as well.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Sep 6, 2008 6:14 AM EDT up 0 recs

"A great fight is a fight in which it is hard to predict the winner OR one in which the underdog wins."

I don’t see how an underdog winning makes a fight great. Was Jake O’Brien’s win over Heath Herring a great fight?

Okay…so hard to predict? Well there was a lot of disagreement over who would win Quarry/Starnes which would be a good indicator of being hard to predict. That wasn’t a great fight either.

Looking at this card, it is certainly interesting…but very far from great.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 6, 2008 11:46 AM EDT 0 recs

I'm talking about the CARD... The actual fight hasn't happened yet and may prove to suck.

If you look at almost any top fight list you will see several criteria including even match-ups and underdog victories. The two criteria I listed above are found almost everywhere as relevant criteria. If your point is that it isn’t the only criteria, I will agree with you. And it may play out that these fights sucked. But in terms of a CARD, which is what my statement was, this is a great card. Quarry/Starnes had “great” fight potential, in the sense that it was even and hard to predict. To no one’s prediction Starnes ran away for the whole fight and the actual fight sucked — that has no bearing on whether or not the card sucked.

I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!

by mma_dude on Sep 6, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up 0 recs

Also...

where does the idea that people are missing Kampmann’s KO power come from?

Kampmann has 6 KO’s or TKO’s

Over:
Edwin Aguilar – stopped 4 times in career
Brendan Seguin – Stopped 8 times in career
Matt Ewin – Stopped 4 times in career
Toni Vivas – Stopped 2 times in career (in 4 fights)
Dave Jones – Stopped 2 times in career (in 5 fights)
Gert Mannaerts – Stopped 1 time in career (in 2 fights)

He has hit people flush a good handful of times in the UFC and has yet to stop anyone. It would appear that against top level competition he does not have fight changing power. He has very good technical striking which allows him to open a lot of avenues to victory. But I don’t think the numbers prove anything other than that his power only shows up against lower level competition (and guys who have a bit of a tendency to get stopped).

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 6, 2008 11:57 AM EDT 0 recs

I'm not sure you know how the human jaw works.

You’re “lower level competition” if your jaw isn’t made of Iron? Is that what you’re saying? You said it yourself, “Kampmann has 6 KO’s”, and at the same time you said he lacks knock out power. How often does Anderson Silva take one on the jaw, or Machida, or Liddel for that matter. I think a “top level competitor” rarely gets his jaw tested.

Marquardt is not a top level striker, Kampmann CAN test his jaw, and it WILL be lights out.

I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!

by mma_dude on Sep 6, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up 0 recs

Well...for starters...

he has ONE KO on his record and five TKO’s so he isn’t exactly blasting anyone out with one shot power, and he has ZERO KO’s or TKO’s in his time fighting in the UFC against high level competition. And yes, lower level competition tends to have worse technique thereby they are hit more squarely more often resulting in more striking stoppages than higher level competition, so I think it is fair to look at results against lower level competition and compare against higher level results. Every human being has KO power if they’re able to throw an unblocked strike which is able to connect perfectly. So yeah, it isn’t outside the realm of possibility that Kampmann gets a KO but he has nothing on his record to show that he can reliably knock people (especially high-level fighters) out.

Marquardt has had 36 pro fights, fighting higher level competition since 1999 and has been stopped once. So I’d say he has been through enough fights to say his jaw is pretty well tested.

Again, I’m not saying that Kampmann can’t possibly get a KO here, but I am saying that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that he lacks KO power at this level.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 6, 2008 2:13 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'm really trying to understand your point.

Marquardt can’t stand with Kampmann (do you dispute this). If he tries, which he might do because he’ll be too gassed to attempt a take down, he will get kicked in the head. (are you disputing this) If he gets kicked in the head, he will go unconscious. (is this the part youre disputing).

Marquardt could take him down and submit him in the first round. If he doesn’t do that, I don’t see him winning. (are you disputing this)

I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!

by mma_dude on Sep 6, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up 0 recs

Well...

Marquardt would probably get outstruck standing.

I am not so sure that he will get kicked in the head. That would depend on his strategy as well as Kampmann’s.

There is no guarantee that a single head kick from Kampmann would result in a knock out. After all…where are all the head kick KO’s on Kampmann’s record…and where are all the times that Marquardt has been KO’ed due to being gassed? Against Silva? Okay…so he was stopped by one of the best guys at generating stoppages in the sport…how does that translate into a fight against Kampmann? Also that stoppage was on the ground, not a spectacular high kick. And believe it or not there are plenty of guys who have taken high kicks without their lights going out.

And yes, I could see Marquardt winning by decision quite easily, so I don’t think it is first round submission or nothing. He has 3 decision victories since 2005 in the UFC.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 6, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up 0 recs

You make some good points.

BTW, Kampmann does have a KO by head kick on his record and Marquardt is a sloppy stand-up fighter.

You’re right, some people have gotten hit in the head with a bat, and survived.

Silva’s style is similar to Kampmann, but you’re right, Silva is bigger and stronger. Kampmann is a little undersized.

Marquardt could get a few takedowns and use those to win a decision.

I don’t think Kampmann could ever beat Silvia, I think Marquardt has a better chance of doing that. But that has nothing to do with Kampmann/Marquardt. This is a 50/50 fight — hence the title of this post.

I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!

by mma_dude on Sep 6, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up 0 recs

And as it turns out, Marquardt put forth a fairly impressive display

of technical striking. I guess we can jaw about this stuff all we like, but in the final analysis, the fights can play out any number of ways. Still fun to tussle about stuff like this though.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Sep 7, 2008 8:18 AM EDT up 0 recs