Mir Loves Lesnar, not Slice

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 8:25 AM EDT Comment 51 comments

In an article from Setanta Sports Mir says the following regarding Lesnar getting a title shot.

"I can get why Brock Lesnar’s getting the fight," he told Sherdog. "It’s not like I think it absurd. If Brock Lesnar was fighting some bum off the street, it would be a main event card. That’s just the way it is. It’s name recognition.

"A guy like Brock Lesnar doesn’t upset me at all. I think he has the potential to be a very legitimate martial artist…so when I stretched out his leg and felt him tapping, I didn’t even try to extend it even further.

"But somebody like a ‘Kimbo Slice’ or somebody like that who I don’t think respects the sport, I don’t think they have a place in it. The referee couldn’t get to me fast enough."

I'm not too sure what the difference is here or why he would think that a guy from a Sports Entertainment background is more legitimate than a guy from a fighting background (granted, felony fights...)

Mir also claims that Lesnar is the new Couture

"Lesnar is basically the new Randy, a better athlete, bigger and more powerful and more dangerous, but he only has two years of [MMA] experience.”

Which I think is ridiculous. A break down of Lesnars three fights:

1: run in, hit guy til guy taps.

2: run in, hit guy til guy taps - but oops, Lesnar taps instead.

3: run in, hit guy til guy taps. Guy never taps.

Honestly I would like to wait to see if Lesnar has any skill other than beating up people that weight 50+ lbs less than him, or gets any new strategy. Couture is who he is because of overcoming the odds, not being the odds.

I like Mir, but seriously ... he's way off base here.

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agreed

by Fight Genius on Sep 24, 2008 8:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This has to be a huge level by Mir. What??

by lbk on Sep 24, 2008 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I spoke about this here

Why Mir is continously dissing Slice is beyond me…I mean yes he came from a questionable background…but to say he doesn’t respect the sport is on some bullshit IMO.

http://mma4real.net/

by Tha Realness on Sep 24, 2008 9:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Seems the popular thing to do

and honestly I don’t understand it either. Kimbo seems like a genuine nice guy, and has done nothing to disrespect or offend anyone that I have seen. He comes from a fighting background (felony and I believe he was a boxer at one time?)

I don’t understand why people are so amped to hate the guy, and I was surprised to hear Mir say it, while giving a one trick pony like Lesnar respect. Maybe it’s just his way of kissing some Dana White butt.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing is your commentary refutes Mir’s analysis of Lesnar being in comparison to Couture a “better athlete, bigger and more powerful and more dangerous”.

You even agree with Lesnar’s size advantage.
And you both seem to share reservation’s about Lesnar’s short tenure in the sport.

Futhermore, you are selective with your quotes:

"I think it’s too early in his career," says Mir of Lesnar, who will be 14 years Couture’s junior when they meet in the Octagon. "I think he’s a great wrestler, powerful background, but Randy Couture is one of the most decorated Greco-Roman wrestlers we’ve ever had in our country."

I think you are standing on the same base.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Of course

Of course I’m selective with my quotes. We’ve been told not to quote entire articles, but to select the parts we’re addressing.

I think saying Lesnar is the new Randy is ridiculous any way you Slice it (yeah). He has done nothing at all to make any such comparison legit. Even saying ‘due to his size and strength’ is silly, since Randy is actually the same size as his opponents (or smaller in some cases), and uses skill and training to overcome them. Brock uses “me big and muskly”.

And regarding his short tenure, in his three fights he has done nothing to show any ability to adapt to an opponent, or to follow any gameplan other than “hit guy, sit on guy, hit guy, sit on guy, …”.

So my point – silly comparison by Mir.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course I’m selective with my quotes. We’ve been told not to quote entire articles, but to select the parts we’re addressing.

The issue with your selection of quotes is that you cut around the part where Mir qualifies his statement.

I think saying Lesnar is the new Randy is ridiculous any way you Slice it (yeah). He has done nothing at all to make any such comparison legit.

The comparison in the article includes their wrestling careers, with Lesnar a 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion and Couture being a runner-up. But, Couture would, of course, go on to be an Olympic alternate.

You:

Even saying ‘due to his size and strength’ is silly, since Randy is actually the same size as his opponents (or smaller in some cases), and uses skill and training to overcome them.

Mir:

"Lesnar is basically the new Randy, a better athlete, bigger and more powerful and more dangerous, but he only has two years of [MMA] experience."

You’ve said nothing which contradicts this statement, and yet you seem to take umbrage on account of it. Lesnar is the true heavyweight and Couture is light for the division but can still fight there on account for his other skills.

Size and strength are great assets for someone who gets paid to hit others and their successful execution should not be viewed as a detriment.

And regarding his short tenure, in his three fights he has done nothing to show any ability to adapt to an opponent, or to follow any gameplan other than "hit guy, sit on guy, hit guy, sit on guy, …".

In Lesnar’s last fight, was there any point in the match where Heath Herring was competitive with Lesnar?
No. That cannot be downplayed with your reductionist view of his gameplan.

So my point – silly comparison by Mir.

Of course not.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

“Lesnar is basically the new Randy, a better athlete, bigger and more powerful and more dangerous, but he only has two years of [MMA] experience.”

You’ve said nothing which contradicts this statement, and yet you seem to take umbrage on account of it. Lesnar is the true heavyweight and Couture is light for the division but can still fight there on account for his other skills.

Thank you for contradicting yourself and making my point. Saves me the trouble. Lesnar is there because of his size, Randy because of skill. Again, thank you.

In Lesnar’s last fight, was there any point in the match where Heath Herring was competitive with Lesnar?
No. That cannot be downplayed with your reductionist view of his gameplan.

Actually, yes. Granted they were few and far between, but in the fifteen minutes that Lesnar’s awesome strategy of “me big, me hit guy” that led to a decision victory, Herring did actually have a few moments of offense.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I only remember one instance of Herring mounting an 'offense' against Lesnar,

and that was with a knee to the head in the clinch, I believe during the second round. Other than that, there was zero offense from Herring. He got rag-dolled by a world-class heavyweight wrestler. It really is as simple as that.

As for Lesnar only being there for his size, this is a completely false statement. He’s there for his ridiculous athleticism. Size is a part of that, but strength, agility, speed and cardio are the more important components of athletic makeup. (I’m about to geek out here) In D&D terms, Lesnar has 22 strength, 17 dexterity and 16(?) constitution. Certainly his strength is the most obvious attribute, but his agility and cardio are also top-notch. Especially for an ogre, or whatever he is.

This guy is not Bob Sapp. Neither is he Hong Man Choi. This guy has a premiere pedigree for a beginning MMA fighter, and a ridiculous athletic makeup. It’s ok to hate on him, just try to keep the appraisals accurate. Otherwise you’ll get us nut-huggers all in an uproar..and one thing you don’t want is Brock Lesnar’s nut-huggers grabbing the pitchforks. We’re unpredictable, and dumb.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Sep 24, 2008 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1,200xp for using a D&D reference :)

I didn’t mean to imply that Herring ever had a chance to win. I was responding to the, “In Lesnar’s last fight, was there any point in the match where Heath Herring was competitive with Lesnar? No.” which is wrong. I would have to rewatch the fight but I am pretty sure there were a couple of times when Herring managed to stand Lesnar up and get a couple of (taptap) shots in.

That said, I heed your warning and have already seen how a fighter who is 1-1 in the UFC against opponents who were sent in to lose to him has people clinging to his sack like he it was filled with candy. That goes beyond the scope of this article tho.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would have to rewatch the fight but I am pretty sure there were a couple of times when Herring managed to stand Lesnar up and get a couple of (taptap) shots in.

Maybe he should have used Lesnar’s “hit guy” strategy.
It was obviously effective.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

but I think the 50+ lbs he was giving up might have had some impact.

I know I know, reductionist.

By the way, I’m thru with you unless you plan to say something worth replying to. If I wanted mindless bickering, I’d get married.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Since when does being able to get up when a wrestler has you down beating the crap out of you mean that you were “competitive” in the fight? For comparison, Fitch was definitely game and had great big buffalo balls for the GSP fight, but there was never a point in that fight in which he in any way threatened GSP.

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously, are all Brock fans this.. anal? Baudelaire decides that mindless ranting will hide the fact that he has no point to make, and now you want to argue the definition of a word?

Here, I help you out. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/competitive

Just wow…

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is that how you judge fights, by looking at a dictionary and seeing the person getting their ass handed to them fits that criteria, really? Come on, no reasonable person could truly believe that Herring was competitive in that fight. He is tough, I will give him that, but in no way did he ever come close to competing (that is come close to threatening) him. Like I said, I do not care what Lesnar does, but I find it interesting that he is so raw and seems to be learning and knows how to apply his wrestling background to MMA. Did Ohio State “compete” against USC?

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Come on man

Don’t be like the other guy, don’t start the bickering… Be more mature than that.

You are the one who bitched about the use of the word ‘competitive’ when it was clear I meant that there were times in the fight where he wasn’t dominated, and was in fact fighting back and trying. I also admitted they were few and far between, and led no where. Don’t get all nit picky…

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It is all good, and I am neither bitching or being nit picky. We all have our opinions of how each fight goes down. You were the one who linked a dictionary to your post buddy. My only point is that is does not matter how you win. If you are BJJ, it is usually a sub, wrestlers typically GNP, kickboxers usually strikes. The guy being a freak should not be used as an excuse or a shot at him. There are plenty of “freaks” & “giants” that have tried MMA and really never did anything. It is only natural that Lesnar uses his biggest strengths, his wrestling & his size until he is competent in other areas. I have seen a bunch of your posts and typically think you make very valid & well thought out points so I do not want this to become a pissing contest.

Thanks for your comments

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where did I contradict myself?
Those two statements you quoted are not mutually exclusive and they actually support each other.

Granted they were few and far between, but in the fifteen minutes that Lesnar’s awesome strategy of "me big, me hit guy" that led to a decision victory, Herring did actually have a few moments of offense.

Again, reductionist.
I don’t see how you can find fault with the strategy which nullified the gameplan of a solid opponent and simplify it to “me big”.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You got me

Quoting something that says how big and powerful Randy is, and then saying, ‘See? Randy is smaller and less powerful’ isn’t a contradiction at all ~~-eyeroll~~-

I know I know, reductionist. Tommy Speers is on line 2. You should take his call.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dammit..

whoever writes this blog software thing please let us use freaking symbols without screwing with our words??? We cant use asterix without making stuff bold, can’t use – without putting a line through our words… gggg

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think you know what contradiction is.

You are the one who quoted this in your original post:

"Lesnar is basically the new Randy, a better athlete, bigger and more powerful and more dangerous, but he only has two years of [MMA] experience."

and you’ve complained, yet never given any evidence to refute it.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Woot

Grammar lessons. I knew you were arguing to see yourself type, cuz really you haven’t made a real point yet – except to agree with, disagree with, and go on tangents that have nothing to do with — what Mir said.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

“3: run in, hit guy til guy taps. Guy never taps.”

was part of a real point?

You have my appologies. I’ll turn my next post into Rock ’Em Sock ’Em Robots for you.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quoting something that says how big and powerful Randy is, and then saying, ‘See? Randy is smaller and less powerful’ isn’t a contradiction at all -eyeroll-

Where is the quote in which it states Randy is big and powerful?

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or do you actually think because Mir said Lesnar is BIGger than Randy that means Randy is BIG?

I am taller than a mouse.
A mouse must be tall.

by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 24, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would love to see Slice get a chance to get in the octagon with guys like Mir who always have something negative to say about him. Sure, we all know Slice is being set up with cans to build elite XC audience numbers. This is not his fault though!

Not saying Slice could even hang a round with guys like Mir, but it would be nice to see him connect on Mirs chin.

by lbk on Sep 24, 2008 11:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Would love to see Slice get a chance to get in the octagon with guys like Mir who always have something negative to say about him.

Mir would crush Kimbo, James Thompson beat him (yeah, I know, not “officially” but come on).

by metaldome on Sep 24, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

“Not saying Slice could even hang a round with guys like Mir, but it would be nice to see him connect on Mirs chin.”

Reading comprehension for the win

by lbk on Sep 24, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not too sure what the difference is here or why he would think that a guy from a Sports Entertainment background is more legitimate than a guy from a fighting background (granted, felony fights…)

Actually I think someone that was NCAA wrestling champion (and could have gone to the olympics but chose to make money instead) would be more legitimate than someone who fought some chumps in a miami boat yard for money. You should be able to admit Lesnar would crush Kimbo if they fought.

"…but he only has two years of [MMA] experience."

Hes not saying he is Randy right now but that he is also a great wrestler and he has the skills to be really good in the future.

In Lesnar’s last fight, was there any point in the match where Heath Herring was competitive with Lesnar?

Not really.

by metaldome on Sep 24, 2008 11:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not sure

why we are faulting Lesnar for being such a large man. Yes, he is a huge guy, but he makes the weight requirements & there a lot of guys who make their weight & come in much larger than their opponent. Lesnar is a freak of an athlete. Not only is he huge, but he is extremely fast & lets not forget he has had all of 3 professional fights and appears to be learning quickly. People want him to be able to finish some fights via submission, but how many BJJ guys learn it so quickly that they are able to implement in one of their first fights. RIght now, he is using what he has. Crazy athleticism and those hams he has as fists.

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well...

The article is really about Mir and what he said. But the Brock suckers came in and decided that “omg you can’t talk about Brock!one111” which turned the thread into a discussion about him.

Sooo for the record, I am not faulting Lesnar for his size, I’m also not overlooking it. If King Kong (obviously extreme example) came into the octagon and killed everyone sent in, would we claim he is an amazing athlete and specimen of MMA prowess? Naah, we’d see “that huge monkey is killing people!” and yeah, people would pay to see that too.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brock!one111

awesome job, again, software coder…

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do we fault A Silva for basically kneeing the living crap out of the majority of his opponents because it works? He has all but forgotten his BJJ for the most part and plays to his best strengths.

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why are you stuck on fault?

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fault, bag on which would you prefer?

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Neither

since the first sentence of my second paragraph was:

Sooo for the record, I am not faulting Lesnar for his size, I’m also not overlooking it.

Clearly, states I am not faulting him for his size. You yourself have said that his size is his biggest advantage, and he would be kinda dumb to not use it. And I agree 100%. Not sure how you see that as faulting him or his size.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am definitely not a “Brock sucker”, but he is definitely not the first massive guy to fight MMA and we have seen plenty of those guys not do crap. My point is that you are simplifying things by even mentioning his size. He makes the weight required so that should be it. He is basically a rookie in the sport, so of course he is going gameplan to his strengths just as any other MMA fighter does. How did the size difference work for Sylvia against Randy or Fedor or even Arlovski?

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is your point that you agree with Mir, that Lesnar is the new Couture? or is your point that you think Lesnar needs you to defend him when he’s not under attack?

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What in the world are you talking about? I was responding to your comments, now Mir’s. Like I said already, I really couldn’t care less if Lesnar does anything in MMA. But, it seems that people (such as yourself) downgrade him constantly because he is “King Kong” like and some guys give up 50 lbs to him. These people do not have to fight him, they can refuse. If you take the fight with a bigger man then you have no right to bring up “well he was 50 lbs bigger than me & that is why he beat me.”

by dnevil001 on Sep 24, 2008 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I see what you're saying

My point regarding lesnar’s size is that’s all we’ve seen of him. His size certainly isn’t his fault, but really he could be one or even two weight classes above his competition. That’s the UFCs fault for not having anyone near his size to fight against him, and I have mentioned before I would love to see a super heavyweight division formed, and even can have a TUF for it to bring in some fighters.

So in the meantime, all three of his fights have been exactly the same. Be bigger and stronger. I’m not sure how saying this is a bad thing, since it is what it is. But eh, whatever.

Sorry for the confusion.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think we can all understand Mir's point, comparing Brock to Randy.

They’re both extremely accomplished wrestlers, and also are both savvy businessmen. I think anyone in their right mind would give the IQ edge to Randy, if a straight-up comparison is in order, but Brock has displayed pretty massive improvements from his first fight to his second fight inside the octagon.

And really, if you understand wrestling, you know that Brock is more than simply bigger and stronger on the ground. He uses his size and strength to not only control, but to intimidate his opponents. He also uses insane agility and balance on the ground, and I’m talking for anyone, not just King Kong.

I mean, at the heart of all this we know that Mir is just pimping Brock because Frank’s a company guy, and he feels free to do so because he’s already beaten Brock. I’m actually surprised this hasn’t come up already. Ultimately, never fully trust what a professional athlete/fighter says about any other professional athlete/fighter. They’re too invested in securing their own greatness.

That said, I happen to agree with the bulk of Mir’s quotes.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Sep 24, 2008 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think anyone in their right mind would give the IQ edge to Randy, if a straight-up comparison is in order

I must not be in my right mind. Because correct me if I’m wrong but Lesnar went through 4 years of college as well didn’t he. But I’m not sure what kind of intelligence your talking about.

For the straight up comparison part though after the Lesnar/Couture fight was announced and they went on their little promotional tour Lesnar came off as the more intelligent in the interviews to me. I thought Lesnar gave the more thoughtful and more insightful answers compared to Randy’s in a side by side interview.

by mattman73 on Sep 24, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They’re both extremely accomplished wrestlers, and also are both savvy businessmen.

Both accomplished wrestles, I’ll give you that one. Not sure about businessmen. But anyway, if claiming Brock is the new Randy because they both have nice wrestling backgrounds, that leaves a whole lot of new Randy’s in the organization and the only reason Mir singled out Lesnar is … see below

I mean, at the heart of all this we know that Mir is just pimping Brock because Frank’s a company guy,

I agree.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And y’know, he beat Lesnar so it’s kind of in his interest to promote the guy as being great.

Da Blog

by Richard Wade on Sep 24, 2008 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, anyone who can get a $7million/year contract for Professional Wrestling

is a savvy businessman in my book.

As far as the Wrestler = Randy straw man, c’mon..you routinely do better than that, myth ;)

The main reason Mir is pimping Randy is probably as I stated above, but I don’t think it’s a ridiculous stretch to think Lesnar is capable of dominating in similar fashion to Randy at least in part because of his ability to adapt to the unknown. This ability to adapt is formed of a few factors, including intellect, humility and work ethic. All wrestlers have the latter, but the other two are a little harder to determine from the outside. I think that in the Herring fight Brock went quite a ways in proving that he at least possesses some shred of humility and intellect.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Sep 25, 2008 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow…. Mythbuster, I’m worn out from just reading this.

I’m swinging from the loin of Lesnar, but didn’t take any offense to any opinions or quotes.

by Heenan on Sep 24, 2008 10:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I salute you, sir. If this thread shows nothing else, it’s how offended people get, I mean REALLY offended, if you mention Brocks name without piling compliments on him.

by mythbuster on Sep 24, 2008 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll go ahead and say that

while I enjoy the Lesnar discussions, you really do tend to take an antagonistic stance on him every time you bring him up. So it’s not like this is simply a result of us BLNH’s being stupid and incapable of rational discourse concerning one of our favorite fighters.

Again, I don’t mind that you antagonize us. I find it kind of humorous. Let’s just be clear where the battle lines are really drawn before lobbing condescension (which, incidentally, I think you’ve managed to not do in this ST).

Still and all, it’s a great discussion. One that probably won’t ever go away.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Sep 25, 2008 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs