Why We Need Competition in MMA: Travis Lutter
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 12, 2008 7:47 AM EDT
in MMA News
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PrintSam Caplan has a very good column on Affliction that outlines some of the reason competition in MMA is so important:
I feel like competition keeps a company honest. Competition not only brings the best out of athletes, it brings the best out of businesses. If there is only one MMA company then there is a possibility of the sport’s middle class being eliminated. If we live in a UFC-only world, fighters will have almost no leverage when negotiating with Zuffa. Their options will either be to fight under their terms or keep trying to grind out a living on the regional circuit.
The new structure of the business with only one company could be to fight for the entry-level minimum or main event money. They days of fighters making $30,000-$60,000 fight could potentially cease to exist. If you aren’t considered a draw, you might not get paid, as just being a good fighter might no longer be good enough.
Fans and the media could get shut out as well with only one company. If there’s only company in existence, the UFC could retain the ability to essentially decide who gets to cover this sport and who doesn’t. There’s also the potential for ticket and pay-per-view costs to go up if there’s only one place for MMA fans to invest their dollars.
And this MMA Rated piece about the plight of Travis Lutter illustrates what's already happening to one talented fighter who made a mistake, pissed off Dana and now finds himself without a place to ply his trade:
"I would like to be fighting," Lutter told MMARated.com today. "To be honest, I'm a little frustrated that I haven't found a home."
When we spoke to Lutter immediately following his release close to five months ago, he mentioned that he had preliminary talks with the now-defunct IFL and Affliction. Apparently, nothing came of those talks.
"I might have to take a fight on a smaller show just to get my name out there and build up my career again because it's a little frustrating that my career has stalled," Lutter said.
Lutter's screw-ups annoyed me as much as anyone, but he failed to make weight for a title fight, he didn't murder anyone. There's no reason such a talented fighter -- and the guy is one of the best 50 middleweight fighters in the world -- shouldn't be able to make a living competing.
If there's no way for a fighter as talented and accomplished as Lutter to make a living fighting, that's a huge disincentive for athletes to enter the sport.
Lutter's not the greatest but I still enjoy watching him fight and the same goes for other fighters like Josh Barnett and Matt Lindland who have been told they'll never fight for the UFC again.
It's not about the merits of these fighters, its about whether or not one company should have total control of the sport to the extent that they can choke off the careers of fighters who piss them off.
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Well the answer to this problem is not throwing away money on stupid business models…
The answer is using capital to build up local shows/awareness… so a guy like lutter can fight in a local show and make a decent living while building his career back up.
everyone is looking at zuffa and crying about how those guys need to make more…
No – those are the guys that are doing well and will continue to do better as time goes on – it’s the local and regional seen that needs to improve and catchup.
We need a few more strikeforce type promotions regionally and a lot more local shows as a farm system.
Agreed. There need only be one UFC, but we could use several more Strikeforces.
by Richard Wade on Sep 11, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Not pride...
They still owe fighters money. What we need is stable shows that pay fighters and grow talent with true match-ups and no freakshow fights.
I will argue with your point somewhat..
I think we need UFC and what PRIDE was supposed to be. To me, PRIDE was always the less glamorous or high-quality show, but it did provide an interesting alternative to UFC.
End of the day, I don’t know any non-partisan (read: non-Zuffa hater/bater) MMA fan who didn’t like watching PRIDE, but also had no illusions as to where the best talent was, and who put on the better overall show (UFC).
So yeah, if we could get what PRIDE was supposed to be, instead of what it actually ended up being, I’d go with that. It would provide a place for the disenfranchised (God, I hate that word post 2000 presidential elections…) to go and re-make themselves, or a place for Fedor to do his thing.
I doubt that we can actually get a show like what PRIDE was supposed to be, since there’s so much money involved in building an organization these days. I still think we’d be better off with a bunch of Strikeforces, but there’s a place in the market for a non-Zuffa, B+ quality promotion like PRIDE.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Well, I’ve been watching the UFC consistently for a while now, I buy the PPVs for the most part rather than downloading them, I get irritated with Dana frequently but understand how good he and Zuffa have been for the sport, and I absolutely disagree with your second paragraph there. For a while PRIDE had the better fighters and the better overall show, especially if you take the Bushido series into account.
Well, that would make you the first.
And I don’t mean that sarcastically. I’ll concede that PRIDE had some awesome high-level talent during their glory years, but there were also tons of nobodies in there that wouldn’t have been able to crack the UFC’s ranks.
And let me reiterate that I’m not picking on PRIDE. I own a bunch of their DVD’s, and really enjoyed their events. But I’ve never honestly thought that they had a better overall roster of fighters than the UFC. Back when they had Cro Cop, Rampage, Wandy, Fedor, Nog, etc.. they were extremely talented at the top (I’m only able to think of the big guys right now for some reason…still waking up). That’s why they were so much fun to watch, I think.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Sep 11, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, are you talking about best talent or most balanced roster? They aren’t the same thing. You’re right, PRIDE was definitely top heavy, especially outside of Bushido. Their fondness for GPs certainly didn’t help build new talent either. That said, I still think they had the best fighters.
As for the overall show, I loved the grandeur of PRIDE. I know other people who think it’s cheesy. I think that’s just personal preference and there’s really no point arguing over it.
agree mostly
certainly don’t have much sympathy for the incredibly stupid business decisions that killed IFL and WFA and are killing Affliction and EliteXC but I think its very important that there be a PRIDE-level competitor in Japan or somewhere that can compete with UFC for the very biggest fighters.
More Strikeforces is only part of the solution.
With UFC’s expansion overseas I don’t ever see another pride emerging… I just see more “strikeforces” coming up in different parts of the world.
I loved pride but the fact that they didn’t test fighters hurts my perception of it’s heritage.
their criminal connections
hurt them a lot more in my eyes than the drug testing. you can fix not drug testing pretty easy but being a front for the yakuza isn’t really fixable.
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 11, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Luter a top 50 Middleweight?
Try a top 15. He absolutely murdered Cote. Who fights for a title next month. His only losses were to silva and Franklin. He was absolutely no worse then the #5 middleweight in the UFC. You can make a case that he was #3. Yet Dana has to promote his “pet projects” because he’s just that full of himself. Exactly why the UFC only model sucks. I bitch about it ad nauseum. Glad to see someone else gets it.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Everyone is fighting to survive, not grow
So not many will pay for him
there's not healthy competition
if there were 3 or 4 strikeforces, lutter would be working no problem.
Come on Lutter
I do agree there needs to be competition for the UFC But come on don’t even get me going on Lutter and I am not talking about him missing weight in the biggest fight of his life did you see his 90 second cardio program at work in the Rich Franklin fight it was pathetic and embarrassing not only to him but the UFC that a fighter would be crawling on his hands and kness like that because he was so out of shape and tired. And Lutter wonders why he got the Boot from the UFC- UNREAL
I have no problem with
Lutter getting fired, I’d have fired him too. But I also enjoyed seeing him fight many times and would like to see him fight again. Let’s not forget he gave Anderson Silva the toughest fight of his UFC tenure.
There’s a difference between getting fired and being blackballed so that you can never work again.
You can’t tell me that at least part of this is Lutter being choosy. Don’ t you think that MFC or TKO in Canada would have him? And they pay decent – if not great – money. I doubt that Lutter is “blackballed” from those organizations; hell, Pavlich would probably take him on just to piss the UFC off.
Don’ t you think that MFC or TKO in Canada would have him?
I simply can’t imagine that the smaller shows wouldn’t want a guy like Lutter. Talk about instant legitimacy. You can even market him as a major villain, or a talented punk who needs to get his yap shut. He’s the perfect kind of guy to bring in on a small deal.
I’m guessing that Lutter is holding out for ‘what he deserves,’ which is obviously more than what the market will bear. I’ve got no problem with a guy fighting for more than I think he’s worth, fighting for less than I think he’s worth, or not fighting at all. It’s entirely his choice.
Now if Zuffa were somehow intimidating all the other shows into not signing Lutter, then I’d have a big problem with it. But as of now, Lutter can go find work, and he would be compensated similarly to how other second-tier fighters are compensated in the smaller shows. He thinks he’s worth more than the market will bear, and if he wants his career to continue to stall, he can keep holding out for more money. I don’t think it’s going to happen.
He made a mistake and pissed off the boss of the best paying workplace in the world. Unfortunately, this is something many of us have done in the past, and there’s usually not much we can do to correct it. The only way to get back in his good graces is to publicly humiliate yourself and hope that your ex-boss will acknowledge the gesture. Even then, you usually come back on a worse deal than your original one.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Agree with Nate & Shocbomb
But how does the UFC firing Lutter equate to him being blackballed from every other organization? He screwed up & just like anywhere else in the real world, sometimes when you piss your boss off by not performing or coming to work ill prepared you get fired.
the point is
there isn’t enough competition to the UFC for him to find work.
by Nate Wilcox on Sep 12, 2008 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
But Nate, is that factually accurate?
Is there literally nowhere he can go, sign a contract, and fight right now? I’m genuinely curious to know your perspective on it. It seems to me that he could easily market his UFC experience, and parlay his Silva fight into at least a passable contract with one of the smaller shows.
I’m not arguing that he would make as much as he can with Zuffa, but that ship appears to have sailed. My question is whether or not he could get signed on with a smaller promotion for forty cents on the dollar and get back into the fight game.
It just seems to me that as long as his problem lies solely in his relationship with Dana, he can get back to work somewhere else.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Sep 12, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
There probably isn’t anywhere he’s willing to go and fight right now, which is obviously different.
by Richard Wade on Sep 12, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
my take is that Lutter can't land a fight with a major promotion
and isn’t willing to go down to the regional level.
I’m not saying Lutter is faultless in all this, I’m just saying an athlete at his level should be working and that if there’s no competition to the UFC there will be many more Travis Lutters.
Lutter is possibly a bad example, he just happened to be the one that was posting today.
The funny thing about competition is that it only works if the challenger can push the frontrunner. If I challenged Fedor, I wouldn’t provide him a challenge just because I’m getting in the ring with him; he’d do what he does, brutalize me, and walk away no better or worse for the experience. Most of the organizations challenging the UFC are like me challenging Fedor. They make stupid decisions, come in with no real innovation, lose a ton of money, and the UFC does what they do – counter program, talk shit about them, out-advertise them – and go home.
Honestly, I’d say that there has been some improvement thanks to the “competition” that Zuffa has faced. Top-tier guys like Arlovski and Silvia are making more money in another organization; by many definitions, that would be a success. We get to see more free MMA, both in terms of UFC counter-programming and EliteXC on CBS; by most definitions, that’s a success. MMA has been pushed more and more into the mainstream consciousness by organizations competing for fans; that’s definitely a success.
BUT, at the end of the day, the competition to the UFC has not been up to the task of pushing Zuffa to treat more fighters better. I agree with the above posters that what we need is more LAYERS to the pro-MMA world, at least until such a time as someone actually figures out something new and innovative enough (REMEMBER: competition in a marketplace is supposed to be based on not just offering more of a product already offered, but also on offering something new and creating new client bases!) to challenge Zuffa directly.
I'd disagree
Competion has caused Zuffa to up the ante. They have run counter programming for both EXC CBS shows. They ran a live event to counterprogram the Affliction show. It’s a free country and they are free to such. But it’s bogus to act like the UFC would have magically “given the fans” these shows for free.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I’m not acting like they “gave” anything. They responded to competition and the fans benefited. I’m not a capitalist, but I know a thing or two about market theory. When faced with competition, an established vendor makes moves to make their product more attractive. That’s exactly what happened, and the competitors were only marginally successful in attracting clientele of their own. What else is competition supposed to do?
Caplan’s analysis here is flawed. BTW, does anybody else think he’s been a little more blowhard-ish lately?
The new structure of the business with only one company could be to fight for the entry-level minimum or main event money. They days of fighters making $30,000-$60,000 fight could potentially cease to exist. If you aren’t considered a draw, you might not get paid, as just being a good fighter might no longer be good enough.
If this was the case, it would be EASY to compete with the UFC. Like, insanely easy. One of the main barriers to entry against a dominant UFC is the fact that they drive up the price on everybody, and the fact that they rely heavily on their brand image. If the UFC was stupid enough to do what Sam worries they will do, there would be huge risk both of a TON of second-tier fighters dropping out in favor of startup organization that would pay them a little bit better, and of the individual top fighters dominating the branding and then getting lured away by another organization.
The UFC is dominant because they balance their branding between the organization and the entire collection of fighters, top and upcoming. They won’t upset that balance even if they dominate completely, because that balance is what makes it so damn difficult to compete against them.
Lutter is a shitty example of who to rest your argument on. There is competition, and nobody wants him! The plain fact is he is more trouble than he’s worth or thinks he’s worth. I see nothing wrong with a market that selects him out. While there do need to be more Strikeforces to give guys like him an opportunity, more Strikeforces are inevitable.
I don't care if there are 114 promotions all the size of the UFC …
Travis Lutter shouldn’t get a fight in any of them.
by The Ghost of Spike Owen on Sep 11, 2008 7:56 PM EDT reply actions
Sort of have to take issue with the nature of this story..
Or at least what seems to be a clear persuasion. The UFC has no obligation, as a business, to see to it that Lutter (or any other released fighter) can find a home post-octagon. There is no UFC half-way house— and that’s essentially the nature of the fight game with no regard to the organizations that promote fights. There has been no clear malicious intent from the UFC, even in releasing guys like Babalu and that idiot from the last TUF. Is there a point that the UFC says “Oh shit, these guys can’t compete with us, let’s send rations”? The subtle assertions alone are truly absurd. Competition is great, particularly from a lateral perspective. But the UFC is not responsible for encouraging or bottle-feeding Affliction and Elite XC. Nor are they to feel negligent with the knowledge that Travis Lutter isn’t fighting right now.
I'm not blaming the UFC!
It’s not their fault there is no competition. They’re just doing what they’re supposed to do.
You’re wildly misinterpreting mine and Sam’s point.
The people I’m mad at — if anyone — are the idiots behind IFL, PRIDE, Affliction and EliteXC.
When you say blackballing in assocation with Dana's displeasure with Lutter
It appears to imply that he instituted it. I made my interpretation of the language in the story. If that’s not what you meant, than anyone else that read it that way now knows..
by Charles Awad on Sep 12, 2008 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I laughed.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Sep 11, 2008 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Horrible example with Lutter. That guy does not belong anywhere near the big show. AJB hit the nail on the head above – Lutter’s problem is that he’s picky. He thinks he’s the uncrowned champion because he knows in his heart that if he can just get the fight/rematch with everyone he’d dominate them. The reality is that he’s only won 2 of his 6 fights in the UFC. I don’t understand what Lutter’s great accomplishments are. Winning TUF? How’d that work out?
(formerly TheFightJournal)
Lutter is a major leaguer
He came damn close to beating Anderson Silva, closer than anyone since Lee Murray.
Lutter is NOT a Top 50 Middleweight........
He is a subpar Light Heavyweight. I mean if you cant make 185 for your one and only crack at the title, then you have no business calling yourself a Middleweight. Lutter had the Golden Ticket and threw it away.
The MMA market has to figure out how many organizations are necessary, and determine the nature of each organization. I have confidence that it will work itself out, given the sport continues to grow. I also think Caplan worries too much about the demise of the UFC’s current competitors. Most of them never should have been in the game to begin with. If the sport is popular enough to accommodate more than one major player, smart money will arrive on the seen. Basically, most here understand that EXC and Affliction are merely examples of promotions riding the coattails of the UFC. These organizations are sucking up any resources available that could enable a well managed organization to thrive. They probably need to go.
As far as Lutter goes, I so wish he would have been in better shape for his fight with Franklin. I think the guy is amazingly talented. He just continues to shoot himself in the foot. I really can’t feel too sorry for him. He had fights with the top two middleweights in the UFC, but couldn’t capitalize. Lutter’s from Texas. I want him to do well. Maybe he’ll turn it around before the Zach Arnold / Sam Caplan apocalypse comes to fruition.
Travis Luter is not the reason why we need competition in MMA
Roy Jones, LeBron James, and Reggie Bush are.
These are world class athletic freaks who never considered MMA as a career option growing up.
Competition will force zuffa to provide a larger percentage of its income to the fighters as well as put on a better product. This in turn will effect the marketability of the sport and draw athletes from a much larger talent pool.
As a fan of MMA I want to see the highest quality sport possible and thats just not going to happen with Zuffa as the only option for big-time U.S. MMA.
by Day Man on Sep 11, 2008 10:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good point on athletic freaks
not viewing MMA as a viable career.
Just look at Brock Lesnar, he started off in Professional Wrestling, then tried out for the NFL, before coming to MMA. I think his deal was like $7 million per year with WWF/E, and he opted out after 3-4 years. The NFL pays probably half that for solid, accomplished veterans (superstars can make upwards of $8 million per year). MMA looks like maybe $6 million for the superstars, if they’re on a PPV sharing contract, fighting four times per year (with zero guarantees). It’s getting there money-wise, but it’s got a ways to go before guys like you mentioned will consider it a viable career option.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Sep 11, 2008 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a good point, but you can’t get there with EXC-like promotions. You need strong promotions that have built solid foundations. The above mentioned organizations simply aren’t a threat. They can’t grow the sport and drive up wages in any significant way.
by Cannon Jacques on Sep 11, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
True competition would drive superathletes away
There is this sort of perception that Zuffa desperately underpays fighters. People look at the PPV buys and the payouts compared to boxing payouts, and conclude the fighters are getting screwed. That simply isn’t the case. People forget that for all its growth, MMA as a sport is still in its infancy, not even out of the crib.
The UFC is driving enormous PPV buys through extremely strong, agressive marketing, and a willingness to keep putting money back into the sport itself. The UFC gets next to nothing from the mainstream media, while the typical boxing card barely needs to spend any money on marketing because the newspapers and television news and talk programs and PTI and so forth talk about it. And the UFC does almost all the heavy lifting when bringing eyes to the sport. If I want to watch boxing, there are a dozen outlets on cable I can watch some minor league fights, replays of major fights, old time fights, boxing commentary, analysis, blah blah blah. For MMA, its Spike or bust, unless you’re one of the twenty people who has HDNet. (I’m a big fan of HDNet, btw, even if Cuban is just doing it to make money, nothing wrong with that.)
What competition is there in any of the major leagues? Sure, they have multiple teams, but most of those teams have captive markets; if you’re a football fan in Denver, who do you watch? And all those teams share resources, have collected marketing deals and league management, implement branding and imaging and rules and regulations and so forth collectively. While football teams compete for players, as a money-making entity, its a single entitity with many arms, sharing resources to make the most money possible.
True competition in the MMA market would not do that; you would have multiple organizations that don’t share resources, thereby each making significantly less money.
Don’t kid yourself: very few athletic freaks even consider boxing these days, because while an athletic freak knows he can probably reach the top of the sport, he’s certain he can reach the major leagues of any sport. Because they share resources, football, baseball, and basketball pay out very good money to everybody, from the elite down to the bench players. Boxing pays out great money to the top fighters, and junk to the fighters who aren’t elite or big draws. Part of this is the nature of boxing, which relies entirely on the hardcore fanbase and the drawing fighters. But part of this is simply that boxing is scattershot with no collective will to build the sport as a whole.
When Roy Jones, LeBron James, and Reggie Bush were growing up, MMA was no more mainstream than lacrosse. Now that the payouts continue to rise across the board, and specifically as the UFC continues to open up new revenue streams and achieve economies of scale by providing access to those streams of revenue to all their fighters, more and more superathletes, especially those with backgrounds in wrestling, BJJ, judo, and so forth, will make the transition to MMA earlier and with more dedication.
by Michaelthebox on Sep 11, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate the well thought out response (especially the point about the increase in pay and exposure that has already happened moving the next-generation of athletes towards MMA) , but I think the comparison to leagues like the NBA, NFL and MLB are off base.
You said it yourself, MMA is still in its crib. All of those leagues have been established and went through stages of competition. While you are correct that teams do share resources like league TV revenue, they also compete for players and fans a lot more then you are considering. Yes a person in a city with a team is most likely going to follow that team, however all one needs to do is look at all of the Red Sox, Yankees, Patriots and Lakers gear found in every city in America to see that fans do in fact have a choice and teams need to compete for those fans (and their dollars). On top of that, the majority of fans in the country do not live in cities with established professional teams. All of those fans need to be accounted for.
The reason players in those sports are able to get the level of compensation that they do despite the lack of competition in the market is 100% a function of player’s unions, something that the UFC doesn’t have (and will have trouble forming if Zuffa is the only option for employment).
From a purely static perspective you are correct that adding more organizations would reduce the resources available for the other organizations, however, in a dynamic sense, competition will force the product to be better which increases the total available resources and thus make more money than if there was never competition.
Zuffa has done an amazing job advancing the sport of MMA so this is by no means a rant against the “evil empire”. What I am saying, is that MMA needs competition if it is ever going to move away from niche sport status and compete with the fully established sports leagues that draw the majority of available top flight athletic talent.
My question is, why does it need competition to move away from niche sport status?
All signs are that the UFC is incredibly aggressive in regards to building the sport and the organization, regardless of the degree of competition. Total lack of competition doesn’t prevent a sport from growing, and the UFC shows every signs of wanting the sport to grow. Which makes plenty of sense because a bigger sport makes the top league more money.
Competition doesn’t in and of itself cause a sport to grow faster, it simply forces companies to try different things and thereby find more effective ways of doing business, which then spreads through the industry.
But Zuffa has long since ceased competing for the MMA dollar, which is an extremely small market. They now compete for the general entertainment dollar, which forces them to continue to improve their product. They can get ideas for how to improve from boxing and wrestling and K-1, and to a lesser extent from team sports. Zuffa will continue to improve and grow the sport because they want more money and more power and more fame, regardless of the level of competition in the overall industry.
My preferred endgame involves two to four big league promotions under the Zuffa banner but competing with one another for fighters but able to take advantages of collected marketing and administration and economies of scale, with occasional supercards between promotions. Second would be a single dominant UFC, with fighters unionized.
I recognize that some ability to force reasonable payouts is necessary in the long run. But competition is unnecessary to force growth, unless an organization has become completely static in a market where they have no competition. Zuffa simply doesn’t qualify; they depend on the entertainment dollar which they constantly have to compete for, and they’re kicking the crap out of the other MMA organizations and making huge strides toward the future.
by Michaelthebox on Sep 12, 2008 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Great point about niche vs. general entertainment markets.
A group like UFC absolutely competes for general entertainment dollars, going head-to-head with the NFL, Boxing, MLB, Nascar and Professional Wrestling. But a new, upstart organization has to depend entirely on the niche market’s overall pull.
Zuffa has basically created the North American market for MMA, so essentially all of the smaller organizations depend on Zuffa’s market penetration. Strikeforce is the only business model which circumvents any of this, because they are literally growing their own marketplace. There is tremendous overlap between what they do and what Zuffa does, but ultimately they’re building their own house, rather than renting a room the UFC owns the license to.
I think the main reason people want a fighter’s union is because they see fighters being treated unfairly w/r/t pay scale. I just don’t see the argument here, whatsoever. A great fighter can make, on salary and PPV incentives, over a million dollars per fight. That’s plenty of money, if you ask me.
Employee turnover is how a company stays competitive. I know it’s harsh, but it’s quite literally how life works. If you can’t swim, you sink. If you can swim, then you’ll do fine. Following company policy and getting along with your boss are, fair or not, simply part of what’s required of a person who wishes to keep their job. Obviously you have to perform, as well.
And really, I understand the need to prognosticate and speculate (it’s quite literally ALL that any of us do here) on the future. But as yourself the following question:
Am I satisfied with the quality of the UFC and WEC productions today?
If the answer is yes, then it isn’t broken. Whatever mechanisms are in place, visible or not, are clearly working in our favor. No need to ‘fix’ anything if that’s the case.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Sep 12, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
“A great fighter can make, on salary and PPV incentives, over a million dollars per fight. That’s plenty of money, if you ask me.”
You’re talking about five or so guys in the entire sport. With no guaranteed compensation for injuries (ask Shogun how much money hes made since the Forrest fight).
I agree with you on your sink or swim mentality, I just happen to think that the best thing for the sport is to get as many people into the water as possible.
I'm all for more people getting a chance,
but I don’t think anything needs to change for this to occur. Not only are there ever-increasing numbers of PPV events to choose from, but the quality is staggeringly better than it has been in the past. I can’t remember watching a UFC I was thoroughly disappointed with, but (for the sake of comparing efficient dollars spent) I am thoroughly disappointed with about a third of the boxing cards I buy.
I think the fighters should get a small guarantee, maybe 10-20% of their base pay, regardless of circumstances. This would cover injuries, and help them to deal with their training expenses. Other than that, I don’t think they should be guaranteed a thing. If Chuck is on a PPV sharing contract, then what good does it do the UFC if he isn’t actually fighting? Boxers don’t get anything if they get injured and miss their fight, do they? (I’m asking this last seriously, because I’ve never heard any examples of a guy getting paid even though he was injured).
That sounds cruel, and maybe it is, but this is one arena where you quite literally get the opportunity to craft your career with your own two hands. He’s a rare case, but Fedor hasn’t had to deal with Zuffa, and he’s doing quite well for himself financially on the fight circuit. The possibility exists for these guys to make their own way in the world. It’s just excruciatingly difficult to do so without signing a Zuffa contract.
But then, that’s how I’d describe the struggles in my life. I don’t know why anyone should get a leg up just because they’re in the entertainment business?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Again, I understand what you’re saying and I agree with you that contracts do not need to be guaranteed.
My point is centered around drawing top flight athletes to the sport while you seem to be arguing about how fighter compensation effects the fighters currently in the sport.
From a drawing athletes stand point, young people are much less likely to seriously pursue MMA as a career path if they know that only the top handful of guys can get “rich” from fighting and that if they are hurt they don’t make anything. Why would they fight when they could go to a sport like football where a torn ACL means a year of paid rehab rather then a year of no pay?
I think we agree about how to draw young super-athletes
into MMA, or at least how to make it more attractive to them.
And I don’t know if I’m phrasing it accurately or not, but let me take another stab at describing my general view..
I love the free market system. I mean, I love it. I’m an entrepreneur by trade and it thrills me whenever I am actually given the opportunity to match my abilities against another person/entity’s in a wide-open competition for supremacy. One thing I’ve learned is that there are no short-cuts to achieving long-term success. It’s tempting to think “Gosh, if I could only quadruple my working capital, I’d be able to quadruple my business..maybe even more!” The reality is there are many steps that need to be taken between here and there, and I’m not smart enough to see them from where I’m at, but I am wise enough to know that they are there, and that ignoring them will inevitably cause me distress (and possibly damage).
My overall point is that while I agree that MMA eventually needs to compete for the top athletic talent in the world, I don’t think the sport is at, or even near the point where we need to start advertising the $$$ to those guys. There are a few steps between here and there.
Some people bring up the idea of a fighter’s union, and while it’s a tempting thought (as is always the case regarding the formation of unions), the truth is that a fighter’s union would literally kill MMA today. Eventually, there is no question that a CBA can be integrated into the sport’s framework, but today there is simply not enough cash to accomplish the following:
1. Provide sufficient operating margins to allow for sustained advertising/marketing expansion, equal to or exceeding current rates.
2. Provide sufficient margin for ownership to take reasonable dividends on their high-risk capital investment.
3. Provide $5-10 million yearly paychecks for 10-20% of the talent.
There’s just not enough juice in the sport to allow for those things to occur simultaneously, today. And there’s really no evidence that Zuffa is draining the cash out of UFC and WEC. Actually, most observers agree that they are going above and beyond the call by re-investing in the sport worldwide, with obvious focus on their brand(s). These guys are literally going state-by-state working to get MMA sanctioned throughout the USA. And don’t forget their massive push into England/Europe They’re creating the foundation of this entire sport, ‘out of pocket,’ as it were.
I’m not trying to paint these guys in angelic tones, but as long as they’re doing what’s best for the sport, specifically re-investing in the overall framework (things like mainstream media recognition, and sanctioning body approval), so that the future will be able to support a much larger structure of MMA, then I think that we (as fans) should get behind them 100% in their efforts.
By the way, I applaud Randy for testing his contract limits. I think it was a mistake, and thought so at the time he announced his intention to fight Zuffa, but I applaud the effort. He failed, not spectacularly, but he certainly failed to achieve his primary objectives. That tells me most of what I need to know about the sport’s current working structure.
All of that said, you are absolutely correct when you describe how difficult it will be for MMA to attract world-class athletic talent. Let me offer one nugget for you to consider, not in an attempt to obfuscate the issue, but just for contemplation: how much of an advantage do the athletic guys really have in MMA? Outside of literal genetic abnormalities like Brock Lesnar (who has yet to prove he’s world-class), it seems to me that the guys with the best brains/plans win in MMA (look at Chuck, Randy, Royce, Fedor and GSP). Anderson is a bit of a genetic freak with those limbs, but even he’s capitalizing on his gameplan more than anything, by minimizing his weaknesses and maximizing his strengths.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I have to agree with you that Zuffa is doing an amazing job building the sport and that as of now there is just not enough money available to meet the three standards you listed.
What I’m worried about is Zuffa reaching a point where they rest on their laurels and decide that they don’t need to compete for the top level talent because fans will still buy the product regardless because it is their only option for MMA action.
As far as the advantages world class athletes would have, I think thats a discussion for another time, but I think I could make a very compelling argument for that. If you want to make a fan post we could have that debate there so it doesn’t get lost in the shuffle of an off-topic older story.
As good an incentive as any to make my first FanPost,
I suppose. Probably not right now, though..it’s 3am here, lol.
As for Zuffa resting on their laurels, that is always a fear. But as long as the general entertainment quality remains relatively high, I don’t think we’ll have anything to worry about.
I think audiences are simply less tolerant today than, say, 30 years ago. There’s just too much competition for our dollars. Remember when the NHL had their strike and holdout for a whole season a few years ago? Also, remember how poker got on ESPN and got huge, basically overnight? Well, I read tons of advertising media, and it turns out that poker and NASCAR received the lion’s share of the ‘usual’ NHL revenue. Golf and Tennis also experience significant upswings, relative to previous trends, during the strike period.
There’s just too much competition for our money these days. If UFC rests on their laurels for too long, they’ll die. And the ONE thing you can depend on rich people to do is protect their bottom-lines ;)
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
"As good an incentive as any to make my first FanPost, "
Go for it!
by Michaelthebox on Sep 12, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The Nazis of Germany
developed some general guidelines for their propaganda machine. 1: Do not try to convince the intellectual population in mass propaganda situations, ever. 2: Every argument should be directed towards the “simple man on the street”.
The reasons for this was that the intellectual population that was not sympathetic to the Nazi policies was very unlikely to be pursuaded by any argument put forth. And, also, by concentrating the efforts of persuasion towards them, one would be speaking over the heads of the “simple men” thus failing to reach them. And even if one was able to reach the intellectual men, they in turn would not be able to transfer the argument to the simple ones.
So. Every argument needed to be constructed to fit the man on the street, simply to achieve mass conversion. Strength by numbers, in other words. Those in between the elite and the simple ones were regarded as more likely to surrender to the message in the face of these conditions than the aforementioned intellectuals. With these two groups won over, the normative pressure on the elite to convert would be almost irresistable.
This is a model for propaganda used to this day, And while you speak the truth, Michael, you can’t fight the norm with enlightenment. People shall need to be tricked into believing something different. Deep waters…
Great post, I sincerely enjoyed it! Now I’m enlightened, at least.
by ununkvadrium on Sep 12, 2008 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if you can say that they have long since ceased competing for the MMA dollar. It seems to me like the recent pushes by Affliction and Elite XC have caused ZUFFA to put on a much better product for the fans (including more free content available on Spike).
Would Zuffa have aired those Spike shows without competition from other promotions? Almost certainly not, because while there is a long term possible financial gain to be had by exposing the free TV audience to PPV quality fights and thus gaining more fans of the sport, the short term losses to future PPV and DVD revenues caused Zuffa to make the decision not to run those shows. For Zuffa not running those PPV replays and counter programing events until they were forced to by the competiting organizations was smart business decision, however its not the most beneficial thing for the sport and the fans of the sport.
Competition by itself is unnecessary to force growth, however, business decisions made as a reaction to competition are better for the fans and the sport of MMA in the long run.
business decisions made as a reaction to competition are better for the fans and the sport of MMA in the long run
Thats the sort of thing that sounds good, but I’m not convinced is accurate. Sure, business decisions that improve the quality of the product in favor of stashing the money or frittering it away is better for the fans and the sport of MMA in the long run. But is that necessarily what is happening? Zuffa probably took a big loss on the counter-Affliction show, a loss where the money might otherwise have gone to better production, setting up new revenue streams, legalizing the sport.
At this point, Zuffa is fighting a two pronged battle:
1) building the sport and the market
2) fighting off organizations that are trying to steal the market Zuffa built
While the first benefits the fans and the fighters, its extremely dubious as to whether or not the second one benefits either over the long run. As an example, does anyone really think the sport is better off having had the IFL, than if all those investors had just given their money to the UFC? While fans and fighters benefit in the short run from increased competition, they suffer in the long run due to decreased stability of the sport and the fact that each promotion is less able to invest for the future. If the money a promotion earns has to be split between building the sport, and pure counter-programming to maintain what they have, everybody loses when the money goes to saving what they have.
Good competition is when a company works towards building its market its own way, rather than openly trying to steal an existing market by throwing money at it. What Strikeforce is doing is good, what EliteXC and Affliction is doing is unhealthy.
What the UFC did in response to those two was flooding the market. Thats not healthy, but it was the situation they were forced into by leeching competition. The steps they’ve taken to build the market in response to true competition from other sources of entertainment, thats healthy.
by Michaelthebox on Sep 12, 2008 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Michaelthebox actually said it pretty well above.
Basically, the best competition, in terms of driving the UFC to providing a better product both short- and long-term is the overall competition for entertainment dollars. Think about it like this..
Let’s just use dumb numbers for this exercise. Say MMA currently receives $100 million yearly, world-wide. Let’s also say that ‘entertainment competitors’ for MMA dollars include Boxing, Pro Wrestling, Nascar, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, Tennis, Golf.
Now let’s say that of the current $100 million MMA market, Zuffa is good for $70 million of it. (These numbers are all straight out of my ass, and mean absolutely nothing relative to reality) Now let’s say that Zuffa has $20 million budgeted for fiscal year 2009 marketing. And let’s say they can expand MMA as a whole by taking $40 million worth of ‘entertainment’ dollars for that money (they would, in this scenario, only get 70% of this new $40 million..meaning $28 million), or they can buy $25 million of the MMA market (yes, this is actually how it works in practice. It always costs significantly more to buy the last available vertical portion of a market than to expand laterally), increasing their stake to a staggering 95%.
Scenario A: Zuffa ends 2009 with $98 million in business, and has expanded the MMA marketplace by 40% overall.
Scenario B: Zuffa ends 2009 with $95 million in business, and has expanded the MMA marketplace by nothing% overall.
Now, the A/B example is hyperbolic, obviously. But the reality is pretty clear: any money Zuffa has to spend fighting off Affliction/EXC/DREAM is money they won’t be able to invest in increased globalization and overall sport expansion. Any dollar they can spend trying to take business from WWF/E, Boxing or the major sports leagues is preferable to ‘spending’ money by counter-programming Affliction/EXC/DREAM, because taking entertainment dollars actually generates more total revenue for the industry. Ultimately THIS is what we, the fans, should be wanting. A bigger overall marketplace for our sport, not decentralization of the sport.
Affliction/EXC are just leeches. Don’t get me wrong, they put on good shows, and I enjoy their events immensely, but they’re trying to ride the UFC wave and it ends up costing Zuffa money they actually would be spending to further the sport as a whole. I can’t blame EXC or whoever for trying to get a piece of the pie before it’s too late to ‘get in on the ground floor,’ but they aren’t actually producing much right now. The hell of it is that they could be productive members of the marketplace if their business strategies were a little more coherent.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
i wondering... about the wages these guys are getting.
when Chuck fought evans… chuck got $500k and evans got what?
and how much will Forest get to defend the belt?
and are we going to see the cheapest LHW title fight in the modern age of MMA?
i understand these guys get paid under the counter but do we think, as fans, that dana is going to pay his fighters anymore then he has too?
and if there is no competition will the old TUF fighters get the $500k fights when their old contract expire?
“that dana is going to pay his fighters anymore then he has too?”
It’s simple capitalism. Companies will not pay their contractors/employees any more than they absolutely have to. The more companies in the market means there is more competition for the fighters.
Employees have to fight for what they think they're worth.
If they don’t, then sure, they’re going to be taken advantage of.
This is simple human vs. human interaction. There is nothing more sinister at work here. Macroeconomics and psychology have so much in common that it’s truly dumbfounding when you consider their similarities.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Sep 11, 2008 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Lutter’s screw-ups annoyed me as much as anyone, but he failed to make weight for a title fight, he didn’t murder anyone. There’s no reason such a talented fighter — and the guy is one of the best 50 middleweight fighters in the world — shouldn’t be able to make a living competing.
It’s not about the merits of these fighters, its about whether or not one company should have total control of the sport to the extent that they can choke off the careers of fighters who piss them off.
Zuffa did not choke off the career of Lutter after the first “screw-up”. They released him after he made coming into fights out of shape a habit with Franklin. Lutter choked-off Lutter’s career.
Furthermore, being released by Zuffa is not a total negative for fighters, as being associated with the UFC/ WEC name increases their earning potential in future organizations. It is not incumbent on Zuffa to make sure there are organizations at the ready to scoop-up and properly promote fighters they choose to let go.
Of those “banned” from the UFC, who is not fighting, has had their career choked-off?
Travis Lutter, Kalib Starnes?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Sep 11, 2008 10:29 PM EDT reply actions
...and the previously mentioned idiot from TUF
If he even counts for anything. Starnes should be a ring girl.
by Charles Awad on Sep 12, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
competition still exists after a fashion
but after the failures of Affliction, EliteXC, and DREAM are done with where exactly will Josh Barnett and Matt Lindland be fighting? That’s my point — IF competition ceases to exist, then quality fighters who fall afoul of Zuffa will not fight anymore. And that’s a loss to me as a fan.
But isn’t it conceivable that these fighters, of whom you speak, could find work in regional organizations? That has been the key argument of many here as of late – that direct, head on competition with Zuffa all but has proved to be futile. And, therefore, that one should let this company build the sport of MMA as a consequence of them building their own brand. This will, eventually, lead to opportunities for regional organizations to function quite well while paying feasible wages to guys ilke Lutter and Lindland.
In short: The kind of competition you speak of might not be needed.
by ununkvadrium on Sep 12, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree Somewhat Nate
But, the entire point of running a company is to make your product the most desired and if possible the only choice. That is life
Missing the Point
I believe the arguments attacking Lutter are typical of those who do not understand how Komissar White’s hubris is screwing both fighters and fans. The legions of half bright bloggers and blog readers that are essentially UFC/White lackeys speaks mainly to the immaturity of these folks. And their complete failure to understand how the UFC is hurting MMA.
A monopoly run by the likes of the ego maniacal White is horrible for the sport of MMA. Fighters get screwed out of title shots (Machida would only be one example) and your fortunes rise and fall based on whether White likes you.
Sneak peeks at the upcoming TUF season shows that White, once again, thinks that showing fighters destroying other people’s property, backyard brawling and actling like drunken school kids is the image of MMA American wants to see.
White is a turd who could give two craps for anything but his own wallet.
We NEED competition in MMA.
That wasn’t very Rasta of you, Homes. Actually, I’m looking for something to respond to, but there isn’t really any argument here. Nice word-pooing though.
by ununkvadrium on Sep 12, 2008 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Genius argument!
Wait a second, genius isn’t the word I was looking for. . . lame, thats right, lame argument!
by Michaelthebox on Sep 12, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
While I agree with the article, for the most part, this is the problem I see with Lutter.
He underperformed and was unprofessional in the UFC, so that is out, at least for now.
He is not an exciting, fan favorite, so he has no little interest from the likes of EXC or Affliction, who are trying to put on the biggest draws they can in order to survive.
As for smaller shows, he would be a headliner and probably be looking for a lot of cash from a promotion to show and fight. This is what a lot of UFC exiles do, and I’m not sure that many promoters would be willing to pay him, say 10k, when he isn’t much of a fan favorite.
I wish him the best and hope he puts a little more into his career if he really wants to continue.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
Things would have been different.....
The man didn’t make weight. I could come up with way too many metaphors, but the fact remains that the man didn’t make weight. It was the biggest fight of his career, a title fight. Anderson Silva, the best P4P fighter in the world.
Travis Lutter Bitched Out.
I can’t say I respect that.
He knew he needed to weigh 185 pounds, he didn’t do so. His fault. Bottom Line,
His BJJ is phenomenal, and his stand up is quite good. He fucked up and will have to pay for it for the rest of his career. Cudos to UFC. It’s an embarrasement to have fighters on the roster that cannot make weight.
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![Brazilian TV Exec Says UFC Coming To Brazil in 2011
Danilo Lavieri of Abril.com interviews Terence Paiva, RedeTV! sports director (translation by Chris Nelson):
While (RedeTV!) has been increasing the exposure of MMA, have you looked into broadcasting national events?
In truth, we can't. The agreement with the UFC doesn't allow us to show other fighting championships. But the way around this is to create something here, something like a selective (feeder) for the UFC. That we could broadcast.
Hence the idea of bringing The Ultimate Fighter to Brazil?
When we did the deal with the UFC, they wanted us to broadcast TUF. But our experience with The Contender showed that it doesn't do much. People watch, but it doesn't have the necessary impact. Brazilians want to see Brazilians in action. Brazilians don't like things captioned. So we want to bring TUF here, yes, with Brazilian fighters. But they're different ideas. One does not preclude the other.
Canal Combate's contract with the UFC ends in 2011. Do you really want to get this contract for yourselves?
Not quite. This makes it sound like RedeTV! is the enemy of others. It isn't. We want to broadcast something, something that goes beyond our current deal [21 days after the event takes place]...
And RedeTV! will be partnering with the UFC to bring fights to Brazil?
Also not so. People exaggerate, saying RedeTV! will bring (the UFC to Brazil) and things like this. We're a partner of the UFC and we're going to give them full support so they come here. In fact, they'll be here in 2011. That's for sure. There are some details missing, like where it will take place and whatnot. Now they view us as a market.](http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/133278/redetv_small.jpg)
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