Will Brock Lesnar Follow in CroCop's Footsteps?
by Luke Thomas on Aug 5, 2008 11:08 AM EDT
in MMA News
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PrintDave Meltzer hints at the possibility:
But as he heads into Saturday’s UFC 87 showdown against rugged veteran Heath Herring, he runs the risk that his headlining fame will be over just as quickly as it started.
"There’s always pressure to win in every circumstance," said Lesnar. "Me, being very new, nobody wants to follow a loser. I don’t want to say my back is against the wall, but I put pressure on myself. There’s no added pressure in my mind, but I want to win the fight."
Lesnar can’t afford a second straight loss on a major pay-per-view event and still be considered a long-term main eventer.
And with a hefty contract, Lesnar (1-1 overall; 0-1 UFC) is unlikely to be kept around unless he can be a major pay-per-view seller. It’s not a lock that if he loses he’ll be gone, but if he looks bad or is knocked out, it’s a distinct possibility. UFC last year cut Mirko Cro Cop, a similarly highly paid heavyweight, after two losses.
It's difficult to not get caught up in the storyline of Lensar. That is, there is something to the idea of destiny ushering him to winning and becoming a contender. But I personally see that narrative as more wishful thinking and our imaginations on autopilot than what is actually the likely outcome. We shall see.
The more important point is, whether my predictions are right or wrong, what if Lesnar loses? Should the UFC cut him? The UFC has let fighters in similar predicaments retool themselves on the smaller circuit, but does Lesnar have the patience and willingness to work smaller shows? It's not as if he found fame in the UFC; he got into the UFC partly on his existing fame. My best guess is if Lesnar loses but puts up a great fight, they'll keep him around to mop up the Justin McCully's and Colin Robinson's of the world until he's ready to face stiffer competition.
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No way
CBS books a Lesnar vs. Kimbo fight. For the foreseeable future, they’re going to give Kimbo guys who are mostly going to stand in front of him.
I don’t think this is necessarily true. Not only do they know nothing about MMA, everyone Kimbo fights is going to go for a takedown, and soon enough he is going to lose. It’s a broadcast network, and by the nature of a broadcast network it is going to be looking at short term ratings over long term build. I think if they could make that fight they would.
by Michael Rome on Aug 5, 2008 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he could bring his vast knowledge of MMA to bear on…
Wait. What?
Or are you imagining something more like WWE style announcing?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
No, not WWE style announcing.
Personally, I like when a fighter is commentating. I get so tired of Joe and Mike. I loved when Randy commentated he was good.
I like the perspective they bring. I’d like to hear how Brock would do as a commentator. Maybe he could put some of us at ease about him by hearing that he knows what’s going on in the Octagon.
Yes, but does he? Know what’s going on? I’ve listened to the interviews and watched the Countdown shows and I’ve seen nothing that would convince me that he’s qualified to comment on MMA.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
He should have been fighting Justin McCully and lower tier fighters to begin with. He was the one asking for the best of the division.
Not that he’s gotten the best.
I think the UFC thought they were throwing him a Just McCully-level fighter in Frank Mir, and were as surprised as anyone that a) Mir, while clearly not at the top of the heap is much better than most of their HW division, and b) Lesnar hadn’t prepared for any BJJ, even though his strategy was to take the fight to the floor. I mean, didn’t that fight look like one of the original wrestler/BJJ matches of yesteryear?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Granted he has not fought the absolute best of the best, but he is fighting guys with 10 times more fights than he’s got under his belt. I mean no one else sees that he is coming in to the sport like it’s a cakewalk?
Oh, indeed – he’s getting a tougher than average set of first fights. But if he’s going to demand the kind of pay that he does – Mir got $80,000 and Lesnar got a cool quarter mil – he has to fight people that are competitive.
I mean, he got paid more to lose to Mir, than Nog got for beating Sylvia on the same night. For that kind of scratch, he needs to be in real fights.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Well, I did.
And I wanted to see Nog. And Jeremy Horn. And Nate Marquardt.
Okay, mostly Nog. But I was hoping to see Frank whup the steroid aficionado too!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Herring is an improved fighter with tons of experience… but it still seems like a bad matchup for him. He succumbed to the wrestling skills of Jake O’Brien and had no answer for it. The difference here is that Brock is a lot more aggressive than Jake. Maybe Herring catches him in a sub, but I don’t really see that happening.
As I recall in an interview Dana did (I think Rome is burning something like that) he was asked if he was disappointed in Brock’s fight with Frank Mir and Dana said he was not and that Brock proved he belonged in the UFC. What will happen if he does lose on Saturday? Will it depend on his performance? Will it depend on how close he may have come to ending the fight? So many factors here, but overall I think we may possibly have another Mirko on our hands. The hype was good for Brock b/c that is what he is used to, but it didn’t go his way overall.
I do wonder what Pat Militech has to say about Brock.
I wish I could care about Mark Kerr 2.0, but its pretty tough to. He’s got about 3 minutes to beat Herring before he totally gasses out and becomes susceptible to being KOed by a jab, more than likely, yet everyone thinks that a guy with accomplishments equalled or bettered by two prior Herring KO victims is gonna have an easy time laying on him. Heh.
everyone thinks that a guy with accomplishments equalled or bettered by two prior Herring KO victims is gonna have an easy time laying on him. Heh.
Worked for a smaller, less accomplished Jake O’Brien.
Wasn’t Herring injured or something? I thought I remembered hearing that there was some semi-plausible excuse for his crappy performance. Let’s not forget that while he lost to Nog, he almost won that fight. This is a top-level guy who had a bad day, not a crappy fighter who got lucky.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
He had a a knee injury, I believe he had a strained or torn ligament…I want to say it was the MCL, but honestly I don’t remember.
On the one hand, I’m sympathetic when fighters lose because they compete with previously existing injuries. On the other hand, how many times have we seen guys with knee injuries (Chuck Liddell against Tito, Frank Shamrock against Baroni) win fights, or guys with broken hands knock out their opponent? Fighters will tell you that no one goes into a fight without some injury, and yes, a more severe injury is very unfortunate for a competitor, but the fact is that if the injury was that debilitating, the fighter would not be able to compete.
For me, I would almost think the loss to O’Brien had more to do with Herring making his UFC debut, but you can discount that as well considering Herring’s career in PRIDE.
Like you said, fighters can have bad days. Maybe that’s all it was. But then again, Cheick Kongo fought awfully competitively against Herring in a battle that largely took place on the ground. Sure, Herring did not train his ground game for that fight, but to say Kongo is a ground fighter is like saying Royce Gracie is a K-1 level striker.
Though, really, all of that is secondary to the point I was trying to make: shit happens. It seems to happen rather often in this sport of fighting. But hey, I like Heath against Brock, so what are we arguing over, anyway?
Like I said, “semi-plausible.” I wasn’t saying it excused the loss, but it wasn’t like he got drubbed. That was a 3-round snoozefest of a decision.
And Kongo is getting awfully good at MMA – let’s not discount him either. That guy is far from a one-dimensional striker nowadays.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Kongo is improving. He beat Cro Cop, which despite his UFC stint still means something. His striking is great; that’s his bread and butter. Ground fighting? Frankly, it was stunning he handled himself so well and chose to take the fight to the ground against Herring.
A testament to Juanito Ibarra, really.
Shhh – that name is verboten now that Rampage lost! :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Well, his abilities as a trainer are surpassed only by his ability to steal from and alienate his fighters. How ‘bout that?
As if I know if either of those things are true. But hell, rumor mongering is fun.
Yeah, I heard that about you.
(Hey, you’re right!)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I think he meant less accomplished wrestler…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Oh, I know. But O’Brien is also way younger, transitioned from wrestling to MMA faster, and has significantly more MMA experience than Lesnar. Lesnar’s never even seen the halfway mark of the first.
Hey, I agree. In Lesnar vs. O’Brien, I’d put my money on O’Brien.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Lesnar is not Cro-Cop
Several important distinctions:
—Lesnar is famous in the U.S. and brings new fans to UFC from WWE; Mirko is known only by hardcore fans of Pride who are already watching every pay-per-view.
—Lesnar is just beginning his MMA career; it appears Mirko is at the end of his.
—Lesnar is fighting top contenders right out of the gate; Mirko had a chance to develop in K-1 and then there was screwy rules matches in Pride.
The UFC will keep Lesnar regardless of whether he wins, because he’s too famous to give to the competition.
Everybody’s talking about Randy vs. Fedor, but I’d love to see Fedor vs. Lesnar (after Lesnar has another year or two of training under his belt). Lesnar might be the only guy who can match Fedor’s physical intensity.
Dear Takeover,
Did you see the flurry of fists Fedor slapped on Tim? Did you see the one punch Brock threw in his fight with Frank Mir? Did you notice how slowly he threw that punch?
In short, by the time Brock Lesnar gets the experience he needs to compete with Fedor, it won’t matter as Fedor will have probably retired.
Lesnar is just beginning his MMA career; it appears Mirko is at the end of his.
Yes, because Mirko is soooooooooo old. I mean, Brock is a young 31, while Mirko is an aging 33.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Better question: why would Dana keep paying him like a champion if he fights like a chump?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Future potential.
Though, considering Lesnar is having his MMA baptism by fire, I don’t suppose White is looking for a long term investment in Lesnar if he doesn’t show short term returns.
To me, Dana is handling Lesnar all wrong. It’s like he signed him and threw him to the wolves just so he could look down his nose at EliteXC for signing and building up Kimbo Slice. How does it make sense to beat a potentially huge star rather than build him up to an even bigger star? Sure, if he had beaten Mir and then beats Herring, that’s a huge boon for both Lesnar and the UFC, but it’s a huge risk/reward proposition.
Though, I suppose you could argue that it’s possible for Lesnar to lose to, say, Antoni Hardonk or Justin McCully as well, which hurts the UFC worse than Lesnar losing to both Mir and Herring. Though, at least in that scenario, Lesnar would be left with no value for potential rivals to the UFC. If they cut Lesnar loose upon losing the Herring, you still have the idea that Lesnar was forced to deal with too much too soon into his MMA career and fans may be sympathetic should Lesnar earn a few victories over non-contenders.
As would Burt Reynolds. Or Cindy Crawford. Or Bill Clinton. Does that mean that Dana should sign them?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
You’re arguing like a 6 year old. The point is he has him, Lesnar is actually in MMA and training it, and dropping him when rivals desparately need TV ratings to survive would be a colossal act of stupidity.
You’re arguing like a 6 year old.
No, I’m arguing like somebody who thinks you’re making a silly point. Don’t make Luke remind you of the “no ad hominem attacks” comment policy. :-)
But if you want the same thing said more serioulsy: There isn’t enough money on the line for that kind of defensive strategy. There are lots of people who would be a big draw, and Dana can’t afford to retain them all. Besides, the word on the street is that that ProElite didn’t make nearly enough money on the last CBS show to stay in business – is adding Brock Lesnar’s bloated salary to the mix going to improve things?
And saying that he trains MMA is overstating the case. I remember your comments on this point back before UFC 81:
First, I’m definitely not buying this idea he’ll get immediately armbarred. He has been training with good jiu jitsu guys for a year now, and they spend hours and hours every day on armbar defense and grappling. Word from the camp is that he hasn’t been tapped in months.
In your defense, you were right: no armbar. :-)
But, if that was what hours and hours of training every day for over a year got him last time, how impressed should we be today? How realistic are his chances as an MMA fighter? I haven’t heard anything from him since then that sounded like, “Wow, I didn’t really know what I was getting into with level of BJJ, I’m seriously refocusing my efforts, throwing on a gi and getting to work.” Have you?
I am not impressed with his performance. And I don’t think keeping him around if he loses to Herring (a big “if” I admit) purely as a defensive move seems like a bad idea. Dana might be a lot of things, but he knows enough not to throw good money after bad.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Wait: remove that last “don’t” or the second to last sentence is backwards. Sorry!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
All in fun! Seriously! Also, bored and nothing to do at work. Oh Internet: you do so liven up the afternoons!
Although, “You’re arguing like a 6 year old,” isn’t the nicest thing anyone has said all day. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Yes, bringing up Burt Reynolds is in fact arguing like a child. If I was to go around digging up all of your wrong predictions we could take all day with it, everyone gets things wrong once in a while.
The bottom line is you have some sort of weird agenda with Lesnar where you obsess over his steroid use to fuel your hatred of him. I can only imagine your reaction if you knew the truth about some of your favorites and steroids.
Yes, bringing up Burt Reynolds is in fact arguing like a child.
Responding to silliness with silliness seemed the smartest way to address your point. Sorry you didn’t appreciate it – but since you didn’t address my point when I explained it more fully, I’ll assume you agree. (And what if the argument were about Burt Reynolds movies? Hmmmm…)
If I was to go around digging up all of your wrong predictions we could take all day with it, everyone gets things wrong once in a while.
Wow – you’re completely unwilling to read the substance of what I wrote, aren’t you? I think you have a “weird agenda” with me. :-)
The point wasn’t the wrong prediction – it was that according to everything we’d heard about Lesnar – and the “people training with Brock” you yourself talked to, he was working diligently on his BJJ, and yet got caught in what, a shin-bar? Holy white-belt move, Batman!
The bottom line is you have some sort of weird agenda with Lesnar where you obsess over his steroid use to fuel your hatred of him.
My “weird agenda” is that I don’t think people who have turned themselves into science experiments should be fighting in MMA. That just ain’t right. And I have the same feelings about a bunch of other fighters: Royce, Sherk, Barnett, Sylvia, Franca – I refuse to support any of them. They all tested positive on the day of a fight, which Lesnar hasn’t done, but they all still look vaguely human – an argument you can’t make about Brock’s musculature.
In addition, I think that his potential has been way overrated because people who liked him in professional wrestling aren’t evaluating his skills objectively. The guy doesn’t have any well-developed offensive skills: no striking, no submissions, no GnP. Sure he can bum-rush people and wrestle, but that ain’t MMA. Other than that one spin move where he switched sides on Mir’s back, his entire fight looked amateurish. Right?
So that’s my problem: I don’t think he’s a great fighter, and whatever “athletic gifts” he’s got came out of a bottle. And went in his ass.
I can only imagine your reaction if you knew the truth about some of your favorites and steroids.
Wow – I wonder if I’ve ever considered that – oh wait, I posted this about Brock Lesnar in response to one of your comments yesterday:
Hey, I’m willing to believe that he’s off steroids. Or he’s switched to different stuff. This is the problem with that kind of behavior: it makes everything suspect. I’d like to be able to say that all of the fighters I like are clean, but I have to believe that some of them are just using things there are no tests for.
I’m not naive for goodness sakes.
And yes, it would suck if somebody I liked got popped for steroids. In fact, it did suck when Royce tested positive. And who do I not support any more? Royce!
Now lighten up Michael. I’m going away for 4 days and promise I won’t come back and make fun of your idol again.
Starting tomorrow. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
The WWE fans are sticking around? Really? why weren’t they watching the TUF 7 finale? Hey, wait, weren’t they supposed to have stuck around before and created the fan base for MMA? Where did those 300,000 new buys come from if they’re the fanbase anyhow?
Say he loses. I’m not a fan, but he has a legit wrestling background and a lot of potential. So why did the UFC throw him to 2 legit HWs right out of the chute? I think he would have been much better served with lower level guys and bringing him up a little slower. i know they are paying him big money, but the long term payoff will be if he is actually a contender.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
Its pretty simple. 1) Dana White doesn’t care about pro wrestling. 2) Brock Lesnar, even if he did emerge as a young lion, will have his physical prime end in about 3-4 years. I still think taking the Kimbo route of opposition would have been smarter, and plenty would have paid for Lesnar/Tank, but Lesnar in the deep water immediately gets a lot of people who aren’t otherwise gonna watch buying PPVs, though it definitely remains to be seen if they stick around for part 2.
And that’s where they were going, right? Lesnar vs. Coleman?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
If he wants – or gets – lower level fighters, he should get lower-level pay. Knowing that other fighters make 60 times less than him for longer, better, more competitive fights makes me a little sick to my stomach.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
I don’t like the pay deal either, but they are paying him for his ppv draw. Unfortunately, the people who paid just to see brock, would have been much happier to see him crush a lower level guy, than lose to a solid bjj guy in Mir.
As for the thought that these people wanted to see him in deep water, well that is true for us, but the extra 100k or so that bought the ppv for Brock alone, would have no idea what the deep water is, lol.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
Exactly.
It would be great if all fighters were paid based on their abilities, or at the very least, their ability to put on an entertaining fight. But that’s not the case, it’s about putting asses in seats; look at the WEC salaries if you think this is a Lesnar-centric occurrence (which is just one of a myriad of examples).
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