Head Kicks to a Downed Opponent -- Why Not?
by mma_dude on Aug 26, 2008 10:31 PM EDT
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PrintI'm not being sarcastic, and I don't like seeing blood shed or even death. By nature I enjoy watching amazing displays of Jiu Jitsu, but at the same time I thoroughly appreciate that well placed strike to the jaw, which always results in LIGHTS OUT. In the UFC, for some reason, fighters are not allowed to kick to the head of someone whose knees are on the ground. Why? Every highlight reel the UFC ever runs involves the time a fighter delivered a knock-out via head kick (liddel vs. sobral, evans vs. salmon, gonzaga vs. cro-cop, etc.). But to a downed opponent it's different? Same amount of damage is being delivered to the brain, if anything, the biggest difference is that a downed opponent is going to be expecting it. I'm not nieve -- I realize that this rule is probably out of the hands of the UFC. What state would want to sanction this kind of activity (I understand that)? I guess my point is -- why not?
In an earlier post on the subject of rule changes, the poster didn't challenge this rule, didn't oppose this rule, and didn't support this rule. It really just seems to be something relegated to those crazy Japanese. Us Americans would never allow that, and, at the same time, never even talk about it. I ask -- Why not?
What are the benefits to changing the rules? I believe that the current United States rules are very restrictive and don't represent a "no-holds barred fight", which, by the way, was the original conception of the UFC (not to mention the idea behind all MMA competitions). Instead, American MMA seems to want to provide employment to ex-collegiate wrestlers.
Why would this rule change be a disadvantage to collegiate wrestlers? Because they live and die by the SHOT. A stuffed shot, nowadays, is common place, where as a couple years ago, you rarely saw it. After that shot gets stuffed, the logical offense is a knee or kick to the head. I guarantee that the Ice Man hopes they change this rule by September.
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While we’re at it, why not allow headbuts? They’re ugly, but they favor wrestlers.
Or, we could let them fight on concrete, which would also favor wrestlers.
It ain’t about favoring one type of fighter over another. Its about a fair competition, while also observing safety issues and making the sport acceptably palatable to the mainstream.
I don't understand your point
A head butt doesn’t end a fight, unless it results in a cut above the eye. Concrete would completely eliminate the ground game. Elbows to a ground opponent are just like a head butt. A kick is entirely different then either of those two things. Why is a kick to the head banned and an elbow isn’t? I’m not saying there is a conspiracy, I’m just saying that there is some weird rules.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
Elbows aren't nearly as destructive as a headbutt.
Plus the angles you have to create in order to throw elbows can be defended against, at least moderately well. There is no defense against a headbutt, really. Two hands immobilize the head, and the heads collide. Frontal skull bone vs. Nose/Cheek/Jaw/Teeth is a one-way fight.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 27, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
If you've been mounted.
I think there should be an earlier end to fights in which one guy has achieved the mount and the other guy can’t do anything about it. The mount is the most effective position in MMA and when we see it on tv it almost looks like a joke largely because of the rules. But I’m not defending head butts or anything else here… I’m defending the head strike to a downed opponent.
BTW… a head butt from the guard can be defended. Unless, of course, the fight should already be stopped.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
I guess I mis-stated the case on headbutts.
There are ways to defend against a headbutt from the guard, true. But they’re just too dangerous and dominant to allow, unlike elbows, which can be defensed well enough to nearly nullify their actual destructive capability. A headbutt, even if defensed, is still going to cause damage.
Frontal Bone vs. Clavicle, Frontal Bone wins.
Frontal Bone vs. Orbital Socket, Frontal Bone wins.
Frontal Bone vs. Jaw, Frontal Bone wins.
Frontal Bone vs. Nose, Frontal Bone might go to jail, but certainly wins.
And FWIW, I agree with you in general, that I’d like fewer restrictions on the techniques which can be employed. But the headbutt is just too lopsided, in my view.
As to the mount position, it doesn’t translate well to MMA because of the rules, this is true. But if back-of-the-head strikes were allowed, wrestlers would own everyone. The turtle position would be utterly worthless, and all a wrestler would have to do is get top-control position (something he’s been trained to do for his entire life), then the fight is over. So to neutralize the most dominant position in BJJ (mount) seems like it’s unfair, or imbalanced, but there really are a lot of things to consider when attempting to ratify the rules to create some semblance of balance to the sport.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 27, 2008 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty much have to agree here.
The headbutt example is a good one. Coleman showed that there is quite literally no defense a BJJ guy can mount against a long-torso’d guy who can square your head with his hands, and bash his forehead into your nose. It was a slanted rule, which severely favored wrestlers, and still would if it were reinstated.
Headkicks to a downed opponent though, I’m not sure if that one really makes that much of a difference. A kick is a risky maneuver in MMA because it opens you to being taken down and placed in a defensive position, so I don’t know if it really changes the landscape of a fight too much to include them, except for allowing a really quick finish of a fighter once he’s been clipped in the stand-up game.
Knees to a downed opponent are different, to me. They favor both wrestlers and BJJ guys, although they might favor wrestlers a bit more, since side control is a great position from which to hammer a guy’s head with knees. A wrestler who has his shot stuffed by his opponent is opening himself to knees if he gets sprawled on. This would basically remove the long-distance shot from the primary arsenal of the fighters, and I would actually think this is a good thing. Long-distance shots are kinda ridiculous these days, since everyone who hopes to compete for long has learned a good sprawl.
But in the end, it’s like Michaelthebox says. It’s more about making the sport palatable to the mainstream media and casual fans. I actually think that eventually we’ll see different classes of MMA competition, some of which aren’t sanctioned in countries like the USA because of the rules differences, and they’ll probably all be controlled by Zuffa (only half-joking here). The UFC is about as neutered as any system out there, isn’t it? No footstomps, no headkicks to a downed opponent, no headbutts, no knees to a downed opponent’s head, no strikes to the back of the head, no fine joint locks, no smothering, etc.. They’re doing their absolute best to get this sport accepted in the mainstream, and it’s a tough, tough job.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 27, 2008 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
"Headkicks to a downed opponent don't make that much of a difference"
I can find an example in any of the last few UFC cards that prove you wrong! Granted, the opponent would have defended against it. But that is exactly what I want to see… A defense against it. Usually a defense against it results in different offensive tactics.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
Look, if a guy is clipped and awaiting the Coup de Grace,
then a headkick doesn’t make much difference. Just ask Chuck.
And sure, I’d like to see the evolution of the sport happen more quickly, and in different directions than it seems to. I think we agree on most of these major points. If the only way to get knees to the head of a downed opponent reinstated was to include headkicks to a downed opponent, I’d do it in a heartbeat…but I think I’d do it because I’m a wrestler and I really don’t think headkicks would be enough of a deterrent to me, compared to the ridiculous amount of damage I could deal with knees to my opponent’s head.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Let me put it this way:
If I’m in a position to be headkicked, I’m probably pretty close to out already. At that point, how I’m finished doesn’t matter to me. But a headkick to a downed opponent isn’t likely to be a fight-altering maneuver, at least to my mind.
Headbutts and knees to a downed opponent’s head are, however, likely to be fight-altering.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I concede all that...
I’m talking about a STRIKE to a downed opponent (knee or kick or punch or elbow). Currently you can’t knee someone whose shot you have just stuffed. This situation occurs all the time and the current rule only encourages wrestlers to shoot because they will receive no serious damage as long as their knee is still on the mat.
If you have a guy in side control and you can knee his face… please stop the fight and declare that judo master the winner. Why let the wrestler get a free pass?
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
You know, there's a great idea in amongst these posts.
You’re probably hinting at it, and I just now caught it. Sorry if I’m just slow, lol.
If you won’t allow certain strikes from certain positions, then maybe there should be points awarded for certain positions gained, just like in wrestling. Side-mount is worth a point, full-mount is worth a point, whatever you decide. This would actually be a good step in the process of removing the (horrible) current round scoring system. It would also establish some rules the fighters could sink their teeth into, and they’d have a good idea of how they were doing overall in the fight.
I don’t know if it works in the UFC, but a younger, hungrier organization could certainly benefit from a design like that.
Isn’t this kind of how some organizations have done it in the past?
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
They are allowed in some events...
…but very rarely in the cage, actually.
It’s also a fairly new regulation, which
wasn’t really brought down until around
the Time of the TUF reality show.
IN any event, the rules are made to favor strikers.
Everything from the Gloves, to time limits are.
But, as far as stomps and head kicks on the ground,
they were made Illegal in the UFC because of the Cage.
Very effective maneuvers, but it’s not allowed because
so much of the ground game takes place against the
cage.
In that position it’s to difficult to defend and escape from them,
which could inadvertently lead to serious damage from consecutive
Stomps or kicks. In the Ring, it’s easier to free yourself up, and
prevent damage from these shots.
Can you Imagine what Wanderlei would of done to Sakuraba
for example, against the cage? Or Shogun to Quintin?
I don’t agree with this particular rule, don’t get me wrong;
but that’s the reason given for it. It is allowed in some events
out here in Hawaii though, but not many.
I'm in favor of keeping them out...
I’ve tried (unsuccessfully) to explain my opposition to these moves here and elsewhere, but I never seem to get my point across very well. In most cases, I end up being called squeamish and not a “real MMA fan.” Let me try again. (Sigh. I know this is probably pointless.)
I guess I see these moves as not legit because they are difficult (impossible?) to defend well and have the potential for massive injury. People have disagreed with me before on both of these points, but I’m not sure I can definitively prove or disprove either of these claims.
On the question of defense, people often respond with statements like “good fighters know how to defend against these moves.” I often wonder what they are basing that on. Have they seen people effectively defend against kicks, stomps, and knees while on the ground? Do they know from personal experience how to defend against them? No one ever seems to back these statements up with evidence to support their view. (I’m not saying there isn’t any evidence, I’m just saying I haven’t seen anyone offer any.)
As for injury, I think we’d need to see some study that compares rate of injury for venues that allow the moves to those that do not. I’ve not seen such data.
Anecdotally, I think Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Ricardo Arona is a good example of someone taking a beating and being unable to defend against knees to the face and head.
I agree that refs need to step up their game. (even if head strikes aren't allowed)
The fight between Sakuraba and Arona should have been stopped much earlier. However, Sakuraba was not defending the strikes because he was exhausted, not because there was no defense. At any rate, I believe that the fight should have ended after the first knee when Sakuraba made no effort to improve his position.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
we cant have it both ways....
(not that anyone in this thread brought it up but…) MMA fans cant keep on ranting against ESPN and other mainstream media outlets that they dont give our sport any love and at the same time say the rules (arent violent enough and) should be changed to allow something so dangerous. If kicks/knees to a downed opponent were ever legalized i think the whole industry could kiss the chance of being accepted on network TV good bye.
There are definetely times when i wish the fighter i am cheering for could kick the shit out of hammill, luder, koscheck, (insert name of boring MMA wrestler here) when they are on one knee going for the shoot but the can of worms it would open wouldnt be worth it. That first time a fighter is getting up and doesnt see his opponent coming at his face martin gramatica style wouldnt be worth the excitement it might bring to a few other matches. We really cant ask officials to differentiate anymore on what is a downed fighter vs a fighter on one knee, a fighter getting up, and/or a fighter shooting for takedown. Referees have a hard enough time trying to define “back of the head” could you imagine if we tried to give them something like this??
I remember watching a dream event a few months ago with mayhem miller. It was my first dream event and i was semi-surprised when i saw they did not allow elbows to a downed opponent. My mind was then completely blown when i saw miller nearly jump in the air and come down knee to the side of his head. I completely expected his eyeball to come shooting out of his ears
What's up with the Japs... Elbows are not allowed but knees & kicks are?
Because elbows cause bloody messes and knees cause fights to be stopped. Japanese fans are actually very sophisticated in comparison to American fans.
I told you I can't build your candy house! It will fall apart, the sun will melt the candy, it won't work!
Bones
In my opinion knees and kicks to the head of a downed opponents are just too likely to cause serious damage, which I would say is due to the size of the bones in question. As we all know the legs contain the biggest bones in the body (insert penis joke here) and having big bones collide with skulls just isnt a good idea in my view, not when combined with gravity.
Upward knees and head kicks, as devastating as they are, are not as bad as being on the ground and having gravity against the downed fighter as well. Perhaps you could say that the downed fighter shouldnt be in that position in the first place.
Im also not saying that there are not defences against kicks on the ground. Indeed I was taught a few for my yellow belt in jujitsu so there are some basic and effective defences out there.
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