Bloody Elbow August MMA Meta-Rankings: Light Heavyweight
| Fighter | Points | Promotion | Last Rank |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. Forrest Griffin | 492 | UFC | 1 |
| 2. Quinton Jackson | 473 | UFC | 2 |
| 2. Chuck Liddell | 473 | UFC | 4 |
| 4. Lyoto Machida | 446 | UFC | 3 |
| 5. Mauricio Rua | 406 | UFC | 5 |
| 6. Wanderlei Silva | 395 | UFC | 6 |
| 7. Keith Jardine | 333 | UFC | 7 |
| 8. Rashad Evans | 282 | UFC | 8 |
| 9. Thiago Silva | 264 | UFC | 9 |
| 10. Rameau Thierry Sokoudjou | 263 | UFC | 10 |
| 11. Dan Henderson | 204 | UFC | 11 |
| 11. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira | 204 | Affliction | 12 |
| 13. Tito Ortiz | 145 | Unsigned |
13 |
| 14. Vladimir Matyushenko | 123 | Affliction | 14 |
| 15. Renato Sobral | 112 | Affliction/Strikeforce | 16 |
| 16. Stephan Bonnar | 89 | UFC | 17 |
| 16. Brandon Vera | 89 | UFC | 18 |
| 18. Goran Reljic | 82 | UFC | 15 |
| 19. Ricardo Arona | 78 | Unsigned | 19 |
| 20. Luis Arthur Cane | 74 | UFC | 18 |
| 20. Wilson Gouveia | 74 | UFC | 21 |
| 22. Rich Franklin | 73 | UFC | NR |
| 23. Rafael Calvacante | 71 | EliteXC | 22 |
| 24. Glover Teixeira | 70 | PFC | 20 |
| 25. Travis Wiuff | 66 | YAMMA | NR |
This is one of the weirder Meta-rankings I've compiled since beginning this project. There hasn't been any relevant action in the last month and yet the rankings have been pretty changeable.
For one thing, Chuck Liddell continues to climb, I assume due to anticipation of his fight against Rashad Evans and a likely title shot if he wins that one. The more time goes by, the more I'm convinced that Lyoto Machida was the real loser of the Rampage/Forrest fight. Had Rampage won, Machida would have been very hard to deny a title shot. He had worked his way up to #2 on the Meta-rankings not long ago. Now he's at #4 without having lost a fight.
The other strangeness was at the bottom levels. MMA-ELO's decision to move Rich Franklin to middleweight due to his upcoming fight at 205lbs against Matt Hamill caused Franklin to come in at #3 on their charts. They were the only site ranking him in the top 25 at all but it was enough to get him on the charts at 22. Travis Wiuff also wormed his way into the standings but via several sites ranking him in the top 25.
It also annoys me that so many sites continue to rank Dan Henderson at 205 when he's showing no indication of ever fighting at 205 again.
The UFC continues to utterly dominate this division with 17 of the top 25 and all of the top 11 signed to Zuffa. But you have to hand it to Affliction, they've went out and signed the best available light heavyweight -- #14 Vladdy Matyushenko -- and are putting him in against Little Nog (#11) in October. Hopefully the winner will face Sobral at the third Affliction show. It's too bad Tito thinks he's priceless because I'd much rather see Babalu vs Tito than Babalu vs Bobby Southworth Anthony Ruiz.
The upcoming Liddell/Evans bout will either get Chuck one last title run or establish Rashad as a real contender. I'm much less intrigued by the Rich Franklin/Matt Hamill match. It's not a good matchup for either fighter. IMO with Anderson Silva talking about moving up to 205 to fight Chuck Liddell et al, Franklin should be consolidating his position as the 2nd best middleweight in the world. I'd much rather see Rich vs Dan Henderson than Franklin/Hamill or Henderson/Palhares.
Does anyone know if the Wilson Gouveia/Jeremy Horn fight will be at 205 or 185? There's another fight that makes no sense unless the UFC just wants to give a gimme to Gouveia.
UFC 89 on the other hand will have a huge impact on the rankings. You've got #4 Lyoto Machida vs #9 Thiago Silva in a battle of the undefeated fighters. It'll be hard to keep the winner away from a title shot in 2009. Plus #7 Keith Jardine vs #16 Brandon Vera in a bout that could send the loser's career into a death spiral. And #10 Sokoudjou vs #20 Luiz Cane in what should be a war and should establish the winner as a contender for a 2009 title shot.
Then of course you've got the rumored Rampage vs Shogun rematch in December. The UFC clearly still sees Shogun as a marketable fighter with a big future. My question is what's next for Wanderlei? And with Liddell (or maybe Evans), Shogun or Rampage and Wanderlei all likely to get title shots, how long will the winner of Machida/Thiago Silva have to wait for a shot?
And lastly, is anyone ever going to sign Ricardo Arona?
Based on the premise that opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink. instead of putting up our own subjective fighter rankings, we compile and average the rankings of every source we could find online.
The goal is to show how the MMA community rates the fighters, not to bore you with our opinions.
Be sure and look at the points, they're a much more telling number than the ranking. There's clearly a huge gulf between the top 9 fighters and those that follow.
A total of 45 fighters were ranked in the top 25 by one source or another, for reasons of sanity I only track the top 25 (26 due to a tie) most highly rated fighters.
25 points are awarded for a first place ranking, 16 for a 10th place ranking, 1 for a 25th place ranking. A formula is used to "normalize" the data so all fighters are awarded points from those lists that do not include a full 25 fighters. Fuller explanation below.
Rankings were compiled from the following sites: WAMMA, MMA Fighting, MMA-ELO, Full Contact Fighter, TAGG Radio, MMA News, 411 Mania, MMA Weekly, Sherdog, Cage Potato, MMA On Tap, Five Ounces of Pain, FightMatrix, MMA Playground, HDNet/Inside MMA, MMA/VT (Japan), Houston Chronicle's Brawl Sports, Total-MMA, Fighters.com, and Figure 4 Online.
The normalization scheme as explained by JCS of FightMatrix is here:
The “normalization number” (new name) would be:
120
divided by
(Total Fighters Found in Any List minus 10)Every fighter found somewhere else, but on a Top 10 list would be assigned this number.
The “normalization” number would not apply to a fighter not found on a Top 25 list. They would simply get 0.
So the process would be:
Do all of the Top 25 lists first, #1 = 25, #2 = 24…. #24 = 2, #25 = 1
Do all of the Top 10 lists, same scoring structure.. stops at #10 = 16Figure out that normalization variable.
Fill in the normalization variable to all fighters not found in the Top 10 lists, but found elsewhere.
Do your totals and rank.
0 recs |
44 comments
Comments
overranked=Jardine (as usual)
underranked=Calvacante (though he hasn’t fought top competition, he sure has looked good)
Gotta say, I love the LHWs, what a great class, sport wide. If all of these guys were in teh UFC, there is about 12-15 that I could see having a chance to hold the belt, maybe more.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
by BJJDenver on Aug 26, 2008 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and no, I’m not saying they could all beat Forrest, just that there are that many that have the talent to be a champ.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
by BJJDenver on Aug 26, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forrest is a great fighter, and probably my favorite in-ring persona.
But I just don’t see Forrest as the top LHW in the world. He’s got the belt, and he won it legitimately, but there are a few guys on this list that I just don’t think he can beat regularly.
The whole Title Belt system in MMA has always puzzled me, anyways. There’s just too much variability to make it as serious as boxing, imo.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2008 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think most people base their lists on accomplishments rather than playing the “who would win” game.
by Richard Wade on Aug 27, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, which is exaclty how I think it should be done.
Problem is, the “Who would win?” game is the one that seems fairly central to the issue of who is the best in the world. The Title Belt system just doesn’t address the ever-changing landscape of MMA. Works for boxing, because it’s pretty much evolved as a sport, and is more about attrition than accomplishment.
Doing a tournament system is a step in the right direction, but again, this creates problems. It’s almost like they need a points-based system, derived from accomplishments as related to the opponent those accomplishments were achieved against, with decay on older accomplishments at an established rate. This way, a first-round KO of Chuck by Rampage doesn’t cause Chuck to fall off the top of the hill, it just takes him down a notch or two and rockets Rampage up a few rungs on the ladder. Also, a win five years ago over the reigning whateverweight champion is worth something, but not as much as if it had happened yesterday.
The complexity would upset casual fans, but I think it would make it even more appealing to the hardcores.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 27, 2008 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So many great fights waiting to happen. 2008-2009 is have some amazing LH competition.
Please, please, please get Wanderlei a fight soon. I’m going through Sandstorm withdrawals.
by Day Man on Aug 26, 2008 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I thought we would see him back rather quickly, considering the quick performance against Jardine.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
by BJJDenver on Aug 26, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I'm the only one but...
I really feel Rampage should have won that fight against Griffin. I’ve seen this fight over and over and over again (in HD damnit) and I just dont see how Rampage lost. Rampage clearly won 3 rounds (1,3 and 4) Griffin won round 2 (no doubt) and round 5 was a squash either way. I’ve seen it over and over again. I just dont see how the hell Rampage lost. Dont get me wrong I like Forrest but i just dont think hes gonna hold on to that strap for too long.
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 26, 2008 3:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you on the outcome, but have come to realize that judges just see things differently and put more weight into certain things than you or I do.
That said, Forrest, Rampage or anyone else won’t hold the belt for a long period. There is just to much talent at LHW.
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
by BJJDenver on Aug 26, 2008 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really got me pissed
When Rampage said “I got my ass kicked” after the match because he didn’t. AT ALL! :(
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 26, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve watched it several times as well (in HD damnit :-P) and I still see it for Griffin. It was a close fight that could have gone either way, so I don’t see any point in getting upset that it went one way or the other.
by Richard Wade on Aug 26, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh...
*Goes and watches match again (on 52" Samsung…in HD damnit) and still sees Rampage clearly winning 1,3, and 4.
;)
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 26, 2008 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, you guys are so lucky.
I can’t even GET HD broadcasts here in the PI :( And I’ve got my 61" 1080p showing up in two weeks!
I’d kill for Tivo and HD here…UFC broadcasts are a tick below cable quality here, usually. Really bugs me.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2008 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UFC PPV's and SpikeTV in HD are pretty damn sweet.
I order all the PPV’s in HD now. Its just $10 extra. Well worth it IMO.
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 26, 2008 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much do you pay for the HD PPV? They’re $44.95 here.
by Richard Wade on Aug 27, 2008 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rub it in...
I’m so jealous.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 27, 2008 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing about these lists...
Are guys like Henderson, and Wiuff who end up being ranked in different divisions..
Some sites rank them in multiple divisions, some in one division, some in another..
by JCS_FM on Aug 26, 2008 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah that's annoying
but i’m just trying to document the zeitgeist not to rank fighters.
the meta-rankings show the confusion in the fan base caused by fighters changing weight classes. at least the japanese promotions haven’t been as bad as PRIDE used to be. Remember Wanderlei vs Mark Hunt?
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add to that..
Largely inactive guys like Arona still being listed.. and guys like Franklin being listed at LHW in a few places.
by JCS_FM on Aug 26, 2008 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yup
it reflects real confusion but it is what it is.
unlike your excellent fightmatrix, it’s not an attempt to rank fighters, just an attempt to document how fighters are being ranked. The cool part is it often ends up being a fairly accurate ranking system too. But that’s just a bonus.
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
???
is anyone ever going to sign Ricardo Arona? What the story with him doesnt he want to fight or what?
by RealIrish on Aug 26, 2008 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think A. Silva has spoken of moving to 205 so much as he has said he will accept big 205 matches.
by Simco on Aug 26, 2008 5:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
regardless
the reason behind moving franklin is to get him away from Anderson but if you move them both it’s just stupid. And Franklin won’t be more successful at 205 than Anderson was.
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, they’re not moving Anderson…he’s just taking big fights. There’s a pretty distinct obvious.
So Rich going to 205 does in fact get him away from Anderson while creating a completely new map of opponents.
by Simco on Aug 26, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am done with rankings, they're worthless and frustrating.
Good job Kid…you put a lot of thought into this and presented it very well but its an impossible task.
by banter on Aug 26, 2008 6:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks banter
that’s why I started the meta-rankings because i was comparing so many different ranking sites that I came to the same conclusion.
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nevertheless, I find them pretty useful
especially the top 15 or so.
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of these things are useful.
Meta-Rankings, FightLines, all of it. There is simply no way to compare all of these guys empirically, there are way too many variables which can’t be accounted for.
At this point in the sport’s ‘history,’ if you want to know where guys are relative to others, you’re going to have to use your brain a bit. There’s no one graph or diagram which will show you who is DA B35T 1N DA W0RLD!!
It’s too complicated, and I really appreciate the efforts of people like Kid Nate compiling all the information possible.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it’s not too big of a pain in the ass, it might be interesting to list each fighter’s highest and lowest rank from among the sampled rankings.
by Richard Wade on Aug 26, 2008 7:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
dude
I wish I had time to implement all the great ideas you come up with for these.
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun facts (which may or may not be accurate because I just skimmed the lists, so sue me):
There are only five consensus top 10 fighters. Only Griffin, Jackson, Liddell, Machida and Rua appear on all top 10 lists.
Wanderlei Silva and Keith Jardine also appear on every list (be they 10, 15 or 25 fighters long). Wanderlei ranks no lower than 11th and Jardine no lower than 20th.
Of lists at least 15 fighters long, Evans, Silva, Nogueira and Ortiz are always present.
Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida and Forrest Griffin are the only fighters to receive first place votes.
Liddell and Jackson are the only consensus top five fighters listed.
by Richard Wade on Aug 26, 2008 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's good shit
why don’t you do some more and turn it into a full-blown post?
by Kid Nate on Aug 26, 2008 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I’ve had the August update for the three year UFC standings done for over a week and still haven’t turned them into a post.
by Richard Wade on Aug 27, 2008 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said, I still might end up doing it because it’ll allow me to put off doing something more important.
by Richard Wade on Aug 27, 2008 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And isn’t that what the internet is really all about, lol??
"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"
by BJJDenver on Aug 27, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This stuff just stops me cold
when I have to compile and present it. But the format would be simple enough, just add a few columns to what Nate’s already done. Include fields like “Highest Rank,” “Lowest Rank,” “# of Top Ten Ranks,” and somehow reflect how many total ranking systems are being polled. If there are ten sites, then for the “# of Top Ten Ranks” you could go 3/10, or 10/10. That would be an awesome start.
I just end up staring at these things when I try to do them. It’s like my muse abandons me…
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Aug 26, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 















