Humble Pie Alert: Brock Lesnar vs. Heath Herring Edition
Despite my best efforts, I nor anyone else in the prognostication game can always get it right. As long as I'm correct more than the average MMA fan, I'll have earned my keep.
So I must confess to being wrong in my forecasting of the Lesnar vs. Herring bout and about Brock Lesnar in general. While I can't say I was shocked by what transpired, I can confess to overselling Herring's abilities. I did not expect Herring to stop Lesnar's takedowns, but I did expect more offensive manuevering on the feet and the ground. Herring stayed turtled virtually the entire bout as Lesnar hit side control and leg rides to prevent Herring from recapturing guard. It's a static game Lesnar played, but one played with perfect execution.
What I won't cop to, though, is the principle of "wait and see" with MMA prospects being unhelpful or some sort of hindrance to more clairvoyant thought. That principle didn't work at this instantiation of it, but more often than not, you'll save yourself some grief if adhere to the rule: in MMA, until someone is tested and proven, you are gambling on the unknown. That rule doesn't have to be perfect to be effective. Even though I was very wrong about Lesnar, I still feel comfortable being reserved in predictive situations like the one many of us faced prior to Saturday night. The fact of the matter is that while some took a leap of faith on Lesnar, there were, in fact, quite a few unanswered questions before his fight with Herring. It was a healthy skepticism that didn't make accomplishment for Lesnar impossible, just improbable until more information was made available.
And Lesnar gave us a great deal of information on Saturday. While I believe Lesnar's offensive gameplan was largely a game of static nullification, it's clear Lesnar is significantly improved. Most notably, he already has a much better sense of positioning. He knew with a leg ride or in side control with a "seatbelt" arm to control Herring's back that he was best suited to use his existing abilities. He demonstrated he was building out of his existing skill set rather than trying to be something he is not at this early stage - a very risky proposition.
Lesnar also proved to have good cardio. The match wasn't a pitched back-and-forth battle nor was it particularly damaging for Lesnar, but he still looked fresh after three rounds of tangling with an experienced and very large heavyweight fighter.
What I also liked about Lesnar's gameplan was that it reminded me of the wrestler's creed: when you're not attacking, you're defending. He did spend a large portion of the fight merely controlling Herring, but he was first with his strikes on the feet and immediately bull rushed his opponent. From there, he kept constant pressure on Herring, controlling every position while he found his spots to unleash damage. He never let Herring capture any real offensive opportunities.
Most interestingly, the power behind Lesnar's strikes caught my eye. I've never been impressed with Lesnar's striking technique, but his blistering reflexes and ability to find open shots through control were extremely effective. Once again, he's building in offensive opportunities through his existing skills and assets, something I find commendable and is quite likely partially due to his training with a world-class team/instructors. With the power that Lesnar has, he doesn't need a lot of time or strikes to make his opponent suffer. Even without the damage Herring had suffered on the ground, the two knees Lesnar landed in the clinch against the cage in the third round were stunning. Had he been a little more comfortable and risk-taking in that position, he very well could have stopped Herring there.
So, while I was a skeptic, Lesnar did what I needed him to do all along: prove himself, then I'll believe. Ok, I officially believe Lesnar has what it takes to compete at the highest level of MMA. There are some stiff challenges ahead for him to be sure, but with continued diligence in building his skills and executing a gameplan, he poses a significant number of challenges for anyone in the UFC heavyweight division.
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Nice thread. You most certainly brought some angles I had not considered.
Other than that, I’m sick of Lesnar talk. All though I’m thinking those articles are the ones that are getting the most traffic. I had 4 friends call on Sunday, and they somehow managed to talk about Brock for 20 minutes, and GSP/Fitch for NONE. Let’s hope some news comes out this week that can provide an avenue that is 2 miles west of Brock Street.
by Heenan on Aug 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT 0 recs
"seatbelt"
i love how mma has embrassed wreslting as a key component but as a former wreslter who competed at a veyr high level the lack of respect for certian established names for moves is intolorable, its not a seatbelt its a tightwaist and for mike goldberg aka hack attack you dont take shoots you take shots it s just grammaticly incorrect on a stunning level
by bearcox13 on Aug 11, 2008 10:30 AM EDT 0 recs
Actually
It’s either name, but in grappling it’s a seatbelt. And the guy who taught me the name is a former D-1 wrestler.
You are correct about shot vs. shoot. That gets on my nerves, too.
by Luke Thomas on
Aug 11, 2008 10:42 AM EDT
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Is the use of seatbelt worse than the use of embrassed, veyr, intolorable, or the letter s?
by Heenan on Aug 11, 2008 10:33 AM EDT 0 recs
Luke, you can delete my comments if you’d like. I’m just bitchy because it’s Monday, and I am suffering from an MMA hangover.
by Heenan on Aug 11, 2008 10:35 AM EDT 0 recs
Good article.
in MMA, until someone is tested and proven, you are gambling on the unknown
Very true. You can’t really be blamed for thinking Herring would have fared better and Lesnar worse, than what actually transpired. A lot of people thought the same way. Yes, Lesnar is a physical beast and yes he has the money and ability to train full-time with some of the best trainers out there, which definitely helps excel his abilities. And he does seem to have a lot of natural god-given talent. But I didn’t expect Lesnar to be that good that fast, nor did a lot of other people. There’s every right to be skeptical until proven wrong in MMA. There are just too many variables. There’s a big difference between someone hitting you knowing it’s a script, vs someone hitting you basically trying to knock you out. The psychological difference alone is enough to doubt anyone. Going forward, when Lesnar fights next, things will be different now that he’s shown he can hang with some of the better talent out there.
by pud333 on Aug 11, 2008 10:37 AM EDT 0 recs
Agreed.
Luke did the logical thing and picked what he knows. I think people can understand that. It is hard to expect Lesnar to beat someone like Herring in his third fight.
by zeroword on
Aug 11, 2008 1:17 PM EDT
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Quick question
Im pretty new to the MMA scene, and I truly love it. But my question on Lesnar is that I noticed Lesnar in the mount position twice and Herring got out of it. Im thinking that as a wrestler, there was no excuse for Lesnar to let that happen, am I wrong? I think that Brock might be to big to actually put some hooks in.
by JVelez on Aug 11, 2008 10:42 AM EDT 0 recs
I'm not an expert on wrestling
But I can tell you that “riding the mount” (as gay as it sounds) it quite difficult and is not a typical position in wrestling.
by Luke Thomas on
Aug 11, 2008 10:45 AM EDT
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And part of that
Is knowing how to use the legs in the mount. Ricco Rodriguez’s mount on TK is a great example of where to position your weight and how to use your legs as anchors as they clinch underneath and inside.
by Luke Thomas on
Aug 11, 2008 10:46 AM EDT
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There
was one point in the fight where i thought he had them sunk in. Herring still managed to slip out, but with Lesner’s wrestling ability he doesn’t necessarily even need to mount. Maintaining side control or half guard will give him alot of oppurtunites to GnP.
by asmiley420 on
Aug 11, 2008 11:25 AM EDT
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I'm going to watch it again
To get a better sense of the technical aspects of the fight.
by Luke Thomas on
Aug 11, 2008 11:27 AM EDT
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Riding a back mount is commen in wrestling for long lanky guys such as myself. Flatening out a guy and having his legs ramped up in the air is a beautiful thing. With that said, Luke is right about the mount position being not so typical. It is someting you might see, but the rules make is very diffrent to try to ride. Lesner did a smart thing and didn’t fight to hard when Heath tried to get out of being mounted. He didn’t want to make a mistake and get caught so he stuck with what he was comfortable with.
Being in mount is wrestling is close to a pin and you might put in the grapevines to prevent bridging. In wrestling you want to scoop the head to prevent bridging as well, because in wrestling you much bridge with you head otherwise you pin yourself. Also and maybe most importantly, when you are on top of a guy on his back in wrestling you are tight to his body and never sitting up, as is the case in MMA when trying to struck. So you can be made much more unstable in MMA.
by szucconi on
Aug 11, 2008 11:40 AM EDT
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I wrestled at a school that didn't emphasize leg-rides.
So I totally whiffed on back-mounts in my post below. Being 6’3” and weighing 160# in HS, I would have done well to learn leg-rides a little more.
And you said it more succinctly than I did, when you mentioned the importance of positional stability to a wrestler.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Aug 11, 2008 11:48 AM EDT
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Your post is a little better then mine. I am not feeling well and I feel like I half assed it. As far as my training on back mount, I fell into it once in tenth grade and destroyed some guy so I stuck with it. My coach wasn’t a leg rider, but he showed me a few things and my best move was something that BJJ guys know as a twister, although we didn’t do it in such a fancy way as Eddie Bravo. I generally sucked and I lost a lot, but I made up for it by making people cry when I beat them.
As for my opinion on Lesner, He had a great game plan and it all went the why he and his team layed it out. Well done and very smart, but I still say he will quit when he has to handle advercity.
by szucconi on
Aug 11, 2008 12:06 PM EDT
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The closest I remember ever (semi-)learning in HS wrestling
to a full-mount is a “Saturday Night Ride,” and it only works because you tie all eight limbs together and the top man stretches the bottom man out. Obviously, this is completely impractical for MMA, since there’s no potential for damage to be dealt from this position.
And yeah, a full-mount is more of a grappler’s position than a wrestler’s. BJJ guys are used to rolling around, where up and down don’t mean all that much, but wrestling is far more a top-down method, where top control is paramount to control. For a BJJ guy, if he knows how to work his guard, and has an inexperienced opponent, he can easily flip (or ‘sweep’ as the term seems to have gained some acceptance) the guy on ‘top’ over and end up in a full-mount position. Wrestlers don’t like to take those chances, because the one position you want to avoid is being on your back. You don’t want to be a fish.
That’s what was so impressive to me, in the Lesnar/Herring fight. Brock had tons of opportunities to sink in some hooks and try to end the fight, but he didn’t. He actively refused to do anything that would jeopardize his dominant, damaging position.
My teammates in HS had a saying, comparing wrestlers to BJJ guys, where basically we called wrestlers Boa Constrictors, and BJJ guys Monkeys. Boa’s don’t do anything flashy, they just grind out their opponent until there’s nothing left. Monkeys jump around and perform flashy maneuvers in the hopes of landing that one beautiful shot that ends the fight.
Wrestlers take great pride in our ability to grind our opponents into dust. We don’t need, or want, flashy endings. If it happens, great. But being able to out-work your opponent is a critical mental aspect of wrestling.
Sheesh, that was long-winded..sorry about that.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Aug 11, 2008 11:40 AM EDT
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Well you’re HS teammates couldn’t have been more wrong about BJJ.
by zeroword on
Aug 11, 2008 1:11 PM EDT
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Whooops! I meant “your”. I have to keep the grammer police at bay. You know who you are.
by zeroword on
Aug 11, 2008 1:13 PM EDT
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As a bit of an aside, will Lesnar’s size be an issue with his ability to learn and execute chokes? For example, will he be able to effectively do a guillotine or a rear naked or will his arms just be way to big to even get under the opponent’s chin? This was raised during the fight with Herring when he appeared to attempt a rnc on one or two occasions, but it really looked like his arms might be too big.
Thoughts?
by Kierkegaard on
Aug 11, 2008 11:39 AM EDT
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I wondered that, too.
I would guess, just from memory (not having the fight TIVO’d :( ) that RNC’s are going to be tough for him, but a guillotine shouldn’t be too much of a problem.
This is all ignoring the possibility that he may very well be strong enough to simply crush his opponent’s skulls if he so desired. Mark Coleman vs. Dan Severn still gives me shivers.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Aug 11, 2008 11:45 AM EDT
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When
I get a chance i wanna see the whole card again. I really liked that MCdonald-Maia fight. You would figure though with lesner being so Big, that he’d be hard to buck off during mount.
by asmiley420 on Aug 11, 2008 11:31 AM EDT 0 recs
RAWR!!! lol!
Brock needs to get cut-up again like in that pic above from his WWE days. Anybody know what he was weighing back then? He looks a bit chunky now. Still very impressive though. Big fan of Brock and I hope he gets to the top.
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 11, 2008 11:39 AM EDT 0 recs
He was weighing just about 300lbs when he was in the WWF. He still might be near there.He cuts weight to get to 265.
by Sauce on
Aug 11, 2008 12:42 PM EDT
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300+? So why does he look chunkier now at 265-280? He was straight ripped in WWE. Hope he gets back to form.
by xFenixKnightx on
Aug 11, 2008 12:47 PM EDT
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Herring should be embarrassed
I also picked Herring for this fight and although Brock looked good, Heath looked horrible and not the Heath Herring we all know. I am waiting for reports of an previously existing injury or maybe he broke his cheek bone on that first punch. Either way something was not normal with Heath. I have seen about 20-25 of his 40+ career fights and feel I know his fighting fairly well. He has NEVER fought like that before.
As for Brock, he looked very good. I am a former Division1 wrestler myself and that was pure wrestling out there saturday night. He rode herring very well and used his body weight like a 3rd arm. It was a very effective weapon. When Brock learns how to grapple properly and ioncorporate BJJ into his fights, he will be very hard to stop. Right now he is still very green. I have watched the fight twice already and I saw times in the fight where he literally looked surprised stuff was working and looked confused at times at what to do next. Experience is his only enemy right now.
by Nick Travaglini on Aug 11, 2008 11:44 AM EDT 0 recs
Watching Lesnar move side-to-side from traditional top control
was sort of breathtaking to me, I do not know why. His agility is so tremendous, and his upper body strength allows him to literally control his opponent when on the groun.
Teach this man a couple of finishing submissions, have him keep learning stand-up striking, and he’s going to be a serious force.
I really would like to see someone like Filipovic send a kick up at his head, just to see how well he handles it.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on
Aug 11, 2008 11:52 AM EDT
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I don’t think Herring has anything to be embarrassed about he hung in there and did the best he could. I didn’t see where he could capitalize on someone on Brock’s size laying on him for three rounds.
I must admit at the end of the fight it would have been sweet if Heath had knocked Brock out while Brock was celebrating.
I know for sure Heath will be a better fighter b/c of this loss. I read in an article a few weeks ago that he was not taking advice/training that Randy Couture was recommending for this fight – I hope that doesn’t happen again.
by lovingmma25 on
Aug 11, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
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wishy washy
This is one fickle crowd. I remember when Randy needed to stay retired, two fights later and he’s considered the best in the world in line to fight Fedor. I remember when Herring sucked and considered a permanent nobody, one successful fight againt Kongo and suddenly he was a top notch experienced mma who has hung with the very best in the world. I remember when Brock was being compared to Kimbo and everyone counted him as overhyped and done, one fight later and he’s a threat for any HW. Gotta love you guys.
by Tommy7 on Aug 11, 2008 11:46 AM EDT 0 recs
Herring has fought Nog three times, Fedor, Belfort, and Cro cop. Sure, he’s lost all of them, haha. But between Pride, the UFC and other places all over the world, that’s international experience with some top notch heavyweights over a ten year career that you can’t replace. Herring is an experienced MMA guy who has hung with some of the best. And the reason why people are now taking Brock seriously after one fight is because he dismantled Herring and is actually fulfilling some of the promise and hype. Mir and Herring aren’t cans.
But yeah, fans can be fickle, but that goes for any sport :)
by pud333 on
Aug 11, 2008 12:31 PM EDT
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Hi my name is Luke Thomas
hey guys it’s me, luke thomas from bloodyelbow.com. when i am not on my weekly radio show trying to impress ken-flo with my mma knowledge you can find me right here on my very own blog, back-peddling for three days in a row. on my blog i love to cover mma, but i only give positive coverage to those whom i deem “martial artists’ and those who i feel really embody the bushido or warrior spirit. of course if you could care less about those thing and just want to watch two men beat each others ass, then i will look down upon you from my perch high atop mount mma. oh and by the way, as a side contest on this site, i award a free copy of ufc 15 on vhs to those who catch my rather obvious “casual” mentions of the fact that i train mma and have lots of “ink”. so keep reading because i will make you a better mma fan, trust me.
by JB22191 on Aug 11, 2008 3:36 PM EDT 0 recs
WTF?
You don’t have to read this blog, listen to my show, my views or the views of any other writer here. Nor do anything else related to me. You do know that, right?
As for the back peddling for the last three days, you’re on your own there. This is the very first post I’ve written AT ALL about what happened Saturday night. And as I state above, I’m wrong. I 100% got the prediction wrong. I’m fine with that. It isn’t the first time and won’t be the last. But I tried to give an account of where I went wrong and why and then move on. Perhaps you should do the same.
by Luke Thomas on
Aug 11, 2008 3:58 PM EDT
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No sense dignifying that kind of a comment with a response, man.
by Richard on
Aug 11, 2008 4:34 PM EDT
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