UFC 87 Review: Brock Lesnar Steamrolled Heath Herring
by Kierkegaard on Aug 10, 2008 12:04 PM EDT
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PrintFronted by Luke Thomas. Your's truly also has some crow to eat on this issue.
There, I said it. I said last week when I was confidently predicting that Herring would at least challenge Lesnar and trying to remind everyone that we had seen absolutely nothing from Lesnar yet to warrant all the ridiculous hype and predictions of domination in the heavyweight class that were everywhere, that if Lesnar actually did steamroll Herring I would come back, man up, and admit I was wrong. So I was wrong.
Lesnar earned a little respect from me with the way he absolutely dominated and controlled Herring. He would have earned more if he could have finished him, but I was one of the guys saying that Herring is almost impossible to finish so I guess I can't have it both ways there. After that first shot, though, it sure seemed like anyone with even a little bit of actual skill instead of just brute strength should have been able to get the job done.
Something I haven't yet seen much comment on is the knees. I was impressed with Lesnar's use of the knees when he had Herring down. More people should take advantage of those knees to the body and kidneys; devastating shots -- just ask Matt Serra how devastating they can be.
Whatever respect he earned, though, he completely lost at the end of the fight when he apparently forgot that he's not in the WWE anymore. Nobody is going to convince me that it's "good" for mma or the UFC to have somebody acting like Lesnar did. It's not "colorful" and it's not great to see somebody fill the "bad boy" role. He was basically just an ass. I never really embraced Tito Ortiz doing it, either, but at least Tito Ortiz acted that way after things like big grudge matches (Shamrock) and after actually having been a world champion. Lesnar is acting like the king of the world after going 1-1 against guys the UFC thought he would beat. "Do you see me now?" Douchebag. Period. And no matter what was written in the live reports, if you didn't think he was trying to insult Herring then you were watching something different than I was. Pretending to "ride" him like a horse, pretending to lasso him, laughing and pointing. That was ridiculous from somebody that has yet to prove he can do more than mash on a downed opponent. I'll never be a Lesnar fan.
But I admit I was wrong in thinking Herring's experience would actually test Lesnar.
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You didn’t man up… you said you were wrong and then bashed him for the whole article.
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Barnett somewhat guilty of the same antics and didn’t these kind of “colorful” characters common in Pride?
Just admit to yourself you hate Lesnar because he was a pro wrassler and move on.
My dislike of Lesnar has nothing to do with him being “a pro wrassler.” I dislike him because of the way he acted.
I said before hand that I didn’t think he’d be able to steamroll Herring. I said that I thought Herring’s experience would give Lesnar problems. I was wrong, and I admitted as much just like I said I would. Not sure what more you want, but if it’s for me to instantly change and become a Lesnar fan then that’s just not happening.
Not to mention BJ Penn shoving away Greg Nelson from a fetal Sean Sherk just to wipe the blood off of his face and lick it off his hands.
It’s hard to finish a guy when all he does is turtle up and stick his face in the ground in an attempt to abuse the strikes to the back of the head rule.
Whoa you make it sound deliberate. Frankly he was getting his ass kicked and he turtled up. When somebody is pinning you like that, you feel less pressure in the turtle then you would letting him ride your chest. Brock got to be extremely heavy on top.
So you don’t think fighters defend themselves by orientating their head in a way that makes it difficult not to strike the back of the head? It’s definitely deliberate, and most guys do it.
Turtling up was obviously the optimal position for Herring. I was just pointing out how difficult it can be to finish someone who doesn’t allow you to effectively land clean shots.
I was of the same opinion about Brock’s antics until I remembered why he’s doing it. Everybody has basically said he’s a nothing and doesn’t deserve to be there, including Herring, and that he hasn’t paid his dues. While I may not agree with what he did I understand why he did it. If most of my peers or co-workers were running me down like they do Brock I’d probably have done worse than that.
I, for one, am hoping that it was mostly a one-time thing. I’ll let the post-fight antics slide a bit. It was a solid ass-whooping when a lot of people have said that he (Lesnar) shouldn’t be in there at all.
A guy of Lesnar’s overall athleticism and competitive nature would take talk like that rather personally, and I don’t blame him. If he payed any attention at all to any of the keyboard warriors, his ‘antics’ were a big middle finger to those that doubted him.
He’s still very raw, but showed he has a really solid foundation to build on. His positioning was impressive. He’s certainly possesses very real power in that right hand. If he can clean up his striking a bit and learn what to do when he’s on top…he’ll be a hell of a force and could give anyone fits in the HW division, through sheer power.
I’m not saying he’ll beat everyone, but I don’t think there’s anyone that could stuff a takedown of his.
I think a part of it too is he was playing to the crowd. He worked in a setting 300+ nights a year where playing to the crowd was a part of his job. I do think he channeled his WWE days, but I believe that was more out of habit than it was anything else.
If he continues the antics, I may start to frown on them, but I’m willing to let this one slide.
I definitely think there could be some of the “old habits die hard” stuff going on. But when he had time to step back, away from the heat of the moment in the ring, and got asked about it, his response even then was that he didn’t care if he offended people. That to me shows that it’s not just a matter of losing focus because of spending so long in the WWE—it’s more that his personality and attitude really is that he could care less about respecting his opponents and the fans. At least that’s what it says to me. YMMV.
I am not a fan of that stuff.
Does anyone remember Kos/Goulet? After knocking out Goulet, Kos danced around, did the pro wrestling crotch chop and gestured for a belt around his waist. He did that while Goulet was still down.
I bring it up because I don’t remember anyone getting upset about it. This is not, to me, as bad because Goulet was still down while Kos was playing around.
We have seen plenty of guys do this kind of stuff (I thought Clemente was an ass after the Melvin fight). I don’t like it, but it is out there.
Well
I hate when anyone doe sit, period. Celebrating a win is one thing, mocking your opponent is another. I would imagine the big difference is that Kos/Goulet didn’t headline and neither guy was considered “The Next Big Thing” (I use the phrase intentionally).
As for Clemente/Melvin, I have no problem with that for the specific reason that there was very real bad blood between the two. I can’t remember what it was, but there was some personal shit going on there.
What Lesnar did, while some may love the WWE-ification of the sport, was disrespect a veteran fighter and the sport as a whole with his antics.
(I have tape on my fingers which makes typing annoying so I aim for brevity. Sorry if I screwed some stuff up here)
future fights
It pains me to remark that, with his destruction of Herring, Lesnar has earned himself a spot in the Heavyweight Top 10. In the UFC, Lesnar is only ranked below Nogueira, Werdum, Gonzaga, Velasquez, O’Brien and Mir. Just below Lesnar are Herring and Kongo.
The #1 contender is certainly Werdum, who has apparently been matched up against an unknown on his UFC debut. Gonzaga and Velasquez should fight for the next title shot after Werdum’s. To continue advancing, Lesnar must fight either O’Brien or Kongo. The winner of that fight would need one more victory to earn a title shot.
Hmm
They’ll move Brock and Cain towards the title much faster than that. They need champions that Fedor hasn’t beaten and who are new, so as to claim that they have the world’s best heavyweight.
Does anyone know where I can see these ‘antics’ by Brock after his fight online?
You make money in the fight business by making people want to see you fight people. Trash talk has been part of this since forever. Brock sadly understands the MMA business way more than most hardcore fans do.
You’re right in that trash talk is part of MMA (and almost all other sports). If Lesnar wanted to piss off the hardcores, he succeeded. I’m pretty sure you can understand the sensationalized parts of MMA and not care for them at the same time. I think that’s where quite a few people are on this issue.
by Cannon Jacques on Aug 10, 2008 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure how true this is but I read that before the fight Herring was running his mouth saying he didn’t belong in the ring with Lesnar that he should be fighting top guys.
I don’t disagree with that. Herring does deserve to be in the ring with guys that have better than a 1-1 record. Except in this case.
As long as Lesnar isn’t being totally disrespectful and making a mockery of things then I’m all for this. He pointed and laughed at a guy that said he didn’t belong in the ring with him after totally dominating him. Which I’m sure pure emotion played apart in. So what I’m trying to say is Herring disrespected Lesnar first with his comments. Lesnar just had the last laugh.
Lesnar is good for the sport. He is one of the few guys that can get the sport mentioned on the front page of major sports sites and even major news sites. So if it takes him pointing and laughing at somebody occasionally I’m all for it. If him taking the mic from Joe Rogan and yelling “Can you see me now?” makes guys want to pay to see him get his ass kicked it’s even better for the sport.
I’m a Brock Lesnar nut hugger and proud of it.
I think Brock Lesnar is what this sport needs
The reason I am saying this and this my opinion. I am in the fight game myself and all professional fighting is a “Work” and if you don’t know what I am saying “Fixed” from Wrestling , Boxing, and MMA because its not how talented you are its how many butts you can put in the seats and Dana White see a Gold Mine with Brock Lesnar and people might say “whatever” man He lost to Frank Mir no Brock was humbled because he is entering there game and in wrestling you enter on “your back you leave on your back!” and Dana White knew that this would not hurt Brock’s drawing power you see by last night the venue was “Sold Out” Frank Mir is not a household name so they gave him some creditability because he is the team coach of next UFC reality show. Before to long mark my words Brock will the next Heavyweight Champion. Because he can carry the division Tim Silva couldn’t and that is why he left and the guy they have now I don’t even know who he is because he is a “Transition Champion!” UFC relies on its Light Heavyweight division to draw money because it has names and I believe they want a change because people come to see the Heavyweights. If you wish to discredit me than try because I am in the business and a up in coming promoter, and Its about one word “MONEY!”
Kierkegaard
You Sir are an MMA mark and don’t see the business for what it truly is and that is what you UFC fans refuse to see. It is a show like it or not. Brock Lesnar will carry the heavyweight division that is what he is being groom for Herring was a stepping stone that was his job like it or not Brock did what he did because he knew that guys like you would be talking about him the next day on a fans website you say you don’t like him and calling people bad names but you will go to pay a ticket to see him or buy the payperview that is business and like it or not Dana White likes it because he see nothing but dollar signs, and you say its not the WWE BS its all WWE baby the fight game is like it or not.
I think its condescending to assume most fans here don’t understand MMA promotion is a business. Of course, Dana White’s first responsibility is to the people who have money invested in the organization. Brock Lesnar is widely known and can bring many additional fans to the party. I also believe that Mir beating Lesnar helped Mir gain some respect from fans that didn’t know who he was before. With that said, MMA is not just like pro wrestling. In pro wrestling its easy to groom a guy to be the hallmark of the organization, because the result of the matches are foregone conclusions. Lesnar could easily be beaten again. Almost nobody gave Serra a chance to beat GSP, but he did. GSP’s abilities in regards to MMA are far more advanced than Lesnars. This sport is often unpredictable.
In order for MMA to appeal to a significant amount of sports fans, it can’t employ all the theatrics that pro wrestling does. I just don’t see it used successfully to a great extent in this country’s most popular sports. Sure, some trash talk will help build excitement, but too much sensationalism is just going to turn off a lot of current and potential fans. If pro wrestling tactics are the best route for MMA, should EliteXC go back to the theatrics they abandoned in their second show?
by Cannon Jacques on Aug 10, 2008 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
First, if you’re really a professional promoter of some sort you might want to learn how to mix in a little punctuation and grammar. It’ll make it a little easier to actually make a point and have people understand it. As it is, it’s almost impossible to tell where one thought of yours ends and the next starts, but …
Second, I certainly understand it’s a business. I’m not uneducated. I have a business degree, actually. I never said Lesnar won’t sell tickets. I’m sure he will. I would absolutely never buy a ticket or a ppv specifically to see him, however. Others will, I’m sure. I merely expressed my personal opinion.
Finally, I’m not sure if you really meant to, but in your earlier post and in this one both you really seem to suggest that mma is just like WWE, in the sense that it’s all show and no substance, that it’s fake, that it’s all staged and set up. If that is what you are suggesting, then I guess I don’t need to bother reading anything else you write because you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. This is a real sport, without scripted outcomes and clownish theatrics to sell the tickets.
Get his ass
I had to read your post just to understand what “wrestler” was saying. If I felt like articulating (or even had the ability to), my post would have been a little more abrasive.
Tools belong in sheds, not forums.
Assuming for a second that it’s all about the “show” and not a real sport, is it not enough to have a cartoonish juggernaut of a man beat the crap out of someone? Is that not going to get people to watch? Or does he have to be an asshole when he wins, too?
One more thing, Jenna Jameson writes better than you.
“Heath recently lost to a smaller, weaker fighter with an almost identical skill set.
What about Lesnar being favored seems odd?
by Simco on Aug 6, 2008 10:22 AM PDT”
; )
Kierkegeard
Listen Sir,
Is that the best you can come up with my grammar and punctuation? Sir we are not talking about English class here. We are talking about Professional Fighting. The thing is I a touch a nerve with you and you can’t deal with it. I have made my living at MMA and Pro Wrestling and you haven’t so I think I know a little bit more than you do about how this business works and you guys don’t believe that because you don’t want to think Pro Wrestling and MMA are the same beast. Just one says its fixed and the other one doesn’t because it would bother fans like you to much and the fact of the matter is you don’t want to give a former professional wrestler like Brock Lesnar any respect and you should because when he becomes the Champion you will say that man was right. Thats okay you Sir and every other fan just don’t want to believe it is the truth you want to believe the lie why do you think Tito Ortiz left he was tired of playing Dana White’s game and putting other fighters over. I don’t have blinders on.
So you are saying that mma fights (including in the UFC) are fake just like professional wrestling “matches” are. Great. You can go away now, Jesse Ventura. You have no idea if I’ve made my living at mma, but no matter what you’ve said to the contrary I’m very confident that you have most definitely not made your living in mma. There’s no need to respond to anything else you want to blather on about, because you’re clearly nothing more than a troll spouting that the UFC fights are fake just like the WWE.
Kierkegaard
I sorry Sir I touch a nerve with you and I have made my point because I don’t need to resort to calling people names I was nearing stating fact that is kept on the DLo and I am not saying all the fights are fixed just the ones that involve big money or the guy they are trying to push down every throats like Forrest Griffin because in his fight with Ramage you clear see if you know how to look for it Ramage was holding back because when he would start to hurt Forrest he would not go for the kill if your world has crumpled for it than I apologize. I have made my living at this and con. to do so, and when my promotion gets off the ground they will be coming to work for me. I am just tired of people not giving wrestling the respect it deserves and Brock is just trying to give it some respect , and what some of the founding fathers of UFC were a pro wrestler before he got into UFC Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn. Your just mad because you now see where the business is headed and you don’t like it, and by the way thank you for the compliment about Jesse Ventura he was Governor of Minnesota so thank you for that I am glad you hold me in such high regard.
Kierkegaard
Pushing Forrest Griffin down everybody throat ( Sorry Grammar mistake HA, HA!)
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