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Instant Reaction to UFC 87

Jonhess_tiny by Mike Fagan on

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Pretty entertaining show tonight.  I thought all the fights were entertaining, outside of Kongo's borefest.  With that said, my thoughts on various parts of the evening.

-First off, we went 2-1 on my picks at +5.15 units.  Very good night to say the least.

-Brock Lesnar is an animal and if he can continue to progress as a fighter, the UFC heavyweight division will have a monster on its hands.  I was extremely impressed with Lesnar's ability to control Herring, not to mention knocking the Texas Crazy Horse halfway across the Octagon at the start of the bout.  It seems like Brock is too big to get hooks in from back control, though.

-Jon Fitch put in one of the most gutsy performances I've seen.  We're talking Big Nog levels of taking punishment and still coming out for each round looking relatively fresh.  Again, it just goes to show what kind of level GSP is on.

-Mike Goldberg seems to get worse and worse with each show.  He made a number of mistakes and miscues tonight, including calling Mirko Cro Cop the former Pride Heavyweight Champion.  He also insensitively made a war comparison and used his usual outrageous hyperbole and catch phrases.

What upset me most, however, was Mike's use of "statistics" tonight.  First off, the stats they showed at the start of the should not become standard fair.  MMA is so dependent on matchups and styles, and without a large sample size, they're fairly useless.  There's some merit in them, but they shouldn't be used with the gusto that Goldberg had tonight.  The last straw for me was GSP's passing of Fitch's guard.  Goldberg reacted with such excitement that I imagined he had a bingo scorecard of stats and he finally hit the jackpot.

Goldberg needs to go, and quickly.

-I missed 3 minutes of round 3, but Huerta/Florian looked like the war we all expected.  Florian, as many assumed, patiently waited for opportunities to punish Huerta giving him a fairly dominating unanimous decision.

-GSP/Penn II, make it happen.

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Lesnar

Showed some poor sportsmanship. Laughing at Herring and than grabbing his nuts after the fight was over. That fight should have been stood up atleast 5 different times though out the fight due to Lesnar’s inactivity while on top. Hope he gets his head cracked open his next fight.

by steveoc24 on Aug 10, 2008 1:37 AM EDT   0 recs

All though there is no way I can disagree anymore with your post, I think we can atleast agree that Lesnar won. I want to know who the UFC has in store for his next bout. Maybe a Gonzaga?

by Heenan on Aug 10, 2008 1:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I have a feeling it will Gonzaga or Kongo.

by steveoc24 on Aug 10, 2008 1:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Gonzaga makes sense.

Kongo I doubt. Seems like they want to build Kongo some more, and Lesnar is not a stepping stone, no matter how much you hate on him.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I think it makes sense for the UFC to try and build up Kongo. And I’m not sure who said Brock was a stepping stone, because he’s not, for sure. Once he gets his submission game going he’ll be sick. He had Herring’s back so many times yet it went to decison.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Napao

Gonzaga would be a good one for Lesnar at this point, but no one more capable than that. Kongo maybe. Velasquez after a couple tune ups.

by Jaydoggydog on Aug 10, 2008 2:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wasn't saying that anyone referred to Brock as a stepping stone,

just pointing out that it looks to me like the UFC is trying to promote Kongo right now, so it would be a mistake to pit two guys they’re actively marketing against each other at this point in their young UFC careers.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not sure the UFC is trying to promote Kongo too much since they put him on the undercard.

by steveoc24 on Aug 10, 2008 2:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree 100%

I don’t think the UFC is promoting Kongo one bit sure they are happy to get something from him but that it, and I don’t see them throwing Lesnar in any time soon with Gonzago his BJJ is to good and he has a chance at cathing lesnar with a Sub, I also don’t think we will see a Lesnar Cain Valasquez fight for a long time down the road bolth are fighters Zuffa wants to promote and build and buy matching they up they will shoot one down.I am 90% sure Lesnars next fight will be with one of these 3 Kongo,Justin McCully or his original match up Mark Coleman ???

by Shocbomb on Aug 10, 2008 4:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Gonzaga would submit Lesnar even faster than Mir did.

by Chris Nelson on Aug 10, 2008 2:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I doubt we see Lesnar get submitted any time soon.

It’s always possible, but heavyweights aren’t very agile, and that’s pretty much required for high-quality submissions. Lesnar is so quick, smooth and powerful on the ground that it’s hard for me to see anyone submitting him if he fights methodically (like against Herring) for the rest of his career.

That said, anyone can make a mistake. It’s just that your options are so limited with someone like Lesnar. You seriously think you could put a triangle or and armbar on that body? Really?

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:22 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe not a triangle but a armbar probably. They may be thick but not thicker than a leg.

by zeroword on Aug 10, 2008 2:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The legs are certainly his most vulnerable body part,

and Lesnar showed that he’s simply not going to give his legs to his opponents to take advantage of. That’s why he wasn’t putting the hooks in from the top, preferring to land those meat-cannons from a traditional top-mount wrestling position instead, and maintain dominance throughout the fight.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

And I'm sorry,

but if you try to throw a triangle on that man, you’re going to end up smashed on your head. Might not be enough to knock you out, but a triangle is a pretty complicated submission hold and is breakable with a good slam.

Could be wrong, but I don’t see a triangle taking Lesnar out.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That man’s arms are bigger than most people’s legs. It’s probably as big as his legs.

by cyph on Aug 10, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

seriously

what a lack of class. GSP dominated in almost similar fashion yet showed nothing but respect to his opponent afterwards. If Lesnar wants to play the bad guy, then fine. I will root against that donkey based off his antics tonight.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 1:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Lesnar is grabbing hold of the Villain role

and running with it. I mean, his style will always be that of a bully because of his massive power and forward approach. Why not embrace the character role as well? No better place to be born a villain than in your own hometown.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:04 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

WWE style

Brock just hammed it up a la WWE. He did the Ric Flair WOOOOHOOO on the mic. Classy.

by Jaydoggydog on Aug 10, 2008 2:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, it's obvious that Brock has free reign to bring his stagemanship

with him to the UFC. It’s something that is somewhat lacking in the organization right now, and he’s got the best pedigree and physical presence to implement it.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I respect him paying homage to Flair who is from Mn. But doing the lasso thing and grabbing his crotch? That’s just plain rude. But then again, he does refer to himself in the 3rd person, so maybe I’m asking too much of him.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

By which you mean, “and he should never do that crap again.” This is a sport, not a performance, and while it’s fine to act like that when it’s all pretend, these are real people who have put too much on the line to be treated with so little respect.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Aug 11, 2008 1:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

well if it was intentional then I sort of respect that because heels have their place (see Tito Ortiz). But to me it was just looked like a guy that is not used to winning showing a lack of respect and acting like he’s never won before. But that’s just my .02.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

In team sports, I totally agree with you.

But to me, individual competitions are somewhat different. There need to be villains, and Brock’s no stranger to that concept. Was that something he was actively cultivating? It sure seems that way to me, since he’s always so cold and rock-hard during his interviews. But it’s impossible to know for certain if he was just being a poor sport, or actively working on his marketability.

Could just be that I’m a fan, but I happen to think that he’s actively cultivating that (villainous) persona.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Whether he did it intentionall to become a heel or not, it IS poor sportsmanship because… ya know… this isn’t wrastlin’.

by mythbuster on Aug 10, 2008 8:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Also, did anyone else notice the shove at the end of the first round when they were standing up? That and his end-of-match antics validated every nasty comment I’ve made about the guy.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Aug 11, 2008 1:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lesnar's inactivity?

You can make the argument that he went for periods of like 30 seconds without inflicting serious damage, but I don’t see any way I can agree with the belief that he was inactive to the point where the fight needed to be stood up.

He wasn’t going bananas, throwing punches is rapid flurries or anything, but if you were watching Herring’s reaction to being struck by those warhammers, you could tell that Brock was doing plenty to maintain dominance and impose his will on Heath.

Lesnar wasn’t going crazy with activity, but there is no way that fight should have been stood up five or more times. I honestly don’t remember a time when he wasn’t actively improving position or hammering strikes on Herring’s torso/head. Wasn’t a sexy display of G&P, but it was chilling to watch happen.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought he was pretty active in terms of a guy with not much submission expertise. And I agree that he did enough to not get stood up. Hell I’ve seen a lot more fights with less activity that didn’t get stood up. For all his “inactivity” he made Herring’s face look like hamburger. The guy has a TON of potential. As much as I didn’t like his antics, he was impressive and will only get better.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:24 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The most impressive moment to me was the opening right hand thrown by Lesnar.

Herring’s been in some wars, and Brock just proved that he does, in fact, have big-time power in his hands that translates to MMA. Sending him to the canvas with one punch was impressive, even though some of that was due to the sheer force behind a straight right hand coming from that Adeptus Astartes frame of his.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

so true. and his knees/kicks made me wince.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

SHANE CARWIN

that’s the fight I wanna see, Carwin VS Lesnar

all you gotta do is...

by imapimp08 on Aug 10, 2008 12:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Nice….

by Heenan on Aug 10, 2008 1:23 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can't wait to see the loads of people that jump

... on Maia’s jock. Where were you all when he started out? At home probably rooting for knockouts.

That guy is so advanced. He’ll dominate anyone put in front of him. I pity whoever is next.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 10, 2008 1:53 AM EDT   0 recs

He looked good, but vulnerable on more than one occasion against Jason MacDonald… a B-level fighter. He will dominate anyone they put in front of him?

by Popetastic on Aug 10, 2008 2:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He did look good, but not complete.

They mentioned that his BJJ training is more offensive-minded, I think? That certainly seemed to be the case during the fight, and I remember saying “THIS is how submissions should be implemented in MMA. Not just laying on your back hoping for your opponent to make a mistake, which is what usually happens with good BJJ guys.”

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

maia

sure his jits are fantastic, but his g’n’p was piss poor and his striking was lacking big time. having those 2 huge holes in ur game is only going to get u so far.

by mistake4 on Aug 10, 2008 2:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Apparently you didn't see the huge leap

.. that Maia made from his second fight to his third fight. He had no striking until Wanderlei got his hands on him. And now you can see it. He rocked MacDonald at one point.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 10, 2008 2:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That’s hardly reason to project that he’ll beat anyone the UFC puts in front of him. MacDonald is a good fighter, but hardly top-level. Franklin, Henderson, Leites, Marquardt, Kampmann all beat Maia at this point.

by Popetastic on Aug 10, 2008 2:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed.

Maia showed he’s got some good tools to build on, but has a long ways to go before he can even be mentioned as a contender.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:54 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

When he holds the title, you'll be sorry

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 10, 2008 3:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't know why I'll be sorry

if/when he’s holding the title five or six fights from now? My entire point is that he’s got plenty of potential, but has a long ways to go (as in, five or six quality fights) before he’ll be worthy of a title fight.

Just like Lesnar, actually. Still has a lot to prove, but the potential is undeniable. Lesnar’s path to the championship is certainly shorter, mostly because of how weak the HW division is in the UFC right now.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 4:31 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maia is only like 2 fights away

He’ll draw the winner of Marquardt/Kampmann, most likely, and then probably Franklin or Henderson.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 10, 2008 5:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Slow down there chief. I agree with you that Maia is the cat’s pajamas, but expecting him to hold the title within 2 or so fights is slightly delusional. His striking has improved but it’s no where near the level it needs to be at. He also takes too much damage. The fighters in the middleweight division are too dangerous to take that type of damage.

I’m all for Maia being champ sooner rather than later, but he only has 8 MMA fights under his belt. I’d give him another year or two.

(formerly TheFightJournal)

by Lucas2 on Aug 10, 2008 9:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But not A.Silva.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Aug 11, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Maia

He can go ahead and step up and fight Anderson if he wants. With his striking he’d get finished faster than James Irvin did.

by arrowheadaddict on Aug 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT   0 recs

Precise Precision

I don’t know that I heard correctly, but didn’t Goldy refer to GSP as the ‘most athletically-gifted athlete’ in the UFC?

by steak_knife on Aug 10, 2008 2:14 AM EDT   0 recs

... I think that came shortly after Rogan said that a big part of being a champion is retaining the belt. You know, because if you don’t do that you’re not the champion anymore. They had some absolutely brilliant dialogue last night!

by Kierkegaard on Aug 10, 2008 8:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I thought he was trying to say you’re not “really” the champion until you’ve successfully defended the belt.

Intentional Blog on Balls

by Richard on Aug 11, 2008 12:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Overall, what did you guys think of this show.? I thought it was pretty good.

I have to say, GSP’s wrestling was insane.

And Florian’s takedown defense was amazing.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:27 AM EDT   0 recs

Florian fought a back-up-and-counterstrike fight, and I generally really hate that. He also made me mad with that Joe Lauzon fight when he was doing all those elbows to the back of the head. But he executed his gameplan, that’s for sure. I doubt we hear his whole “FINISH FIGHTS” sound byte next time, though ;)

Lesnar’s fight has been discussed to death above, but for certain he proved that his conditioning, power and patience have taken massive steps forward, at least in the eyes of us fans.

GSP is Achilles, and Jon Fitch is Hektor.

Overall, the worst fight was Kongo’s, and even that was mildly entertaining.

A- grade on my card. Not the greatest ever, and maybe not the greatest this year, but certainly a very good card which delivered on many levels and really failed to disappoint in any way.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Ah. Then who is Odysseus?

by Popetastic on Aug 10, 2008 2:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Indeed. I portend that the Champion of Ithaca will be none other than BJ Penn.

by Popetastic on Aug 10, 2008 2:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lesnar is fighting Kongo next

Book it. Gonzaga is fighting Coleman.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 10, 2008 2:41 AM EDT   0 recs

well that sucks. I like Kongo. But I don’t think at this point and time I don’t think he can beat Lesnar.

by monkeyfightclub! on Aug 10, 2008 2:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lesnar vs. Kongo would probaby be the best

matchup of physique that the HW division has to offer, though.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 2:53 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I have to imagine Lesnar/Kongo would look a great deal like Lesnar/Herring.

Intentional Blog on Balls

by Richard on Aug 10, 2008 2:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Probably so,

but it would be a couple of amazing specimens of human physicality going head to head.

But yeah, I seriously doubt that Kongo is going to prevent Lesnar from taking him down, and if he can’t keep it on the feet then it would look pretty much identical to Lesnar/Herring.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 3:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

^ what he said

Those guys are both freaks of nature. Don’t care all that much for either, but I’d love to see them square off.

by Chris Nelson on Aug 10, 2008 3:05 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Good point. I honestly wouldn’t mind seeing it. Lesnar’s just a fascinating son of a bitch to watch fight.

Intentional Blog on Balls

by Richard on Aug 10, 2008 3:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i agree

it’s almost like watching a science experiment unfold.. very unpredictable and no one really knows what will happen when he fights.

by Benicio on Aug 10, 2008 7:19 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’d pay just to watch this real life “incredible hulk” go donkey-kong on people.

by cyph on Aug 10, 2008 11:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

SHANE CARWIN

Pretty sure that’s the guys name! That’s who I wanna see fight lesnar next

all you gotta do is...

by imapimp08 on Aug 10, 2008 12:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Lesnar makes me feel like a woman

He’s just too manly for MMA. He’s fucking huge. His arms are the size of my body.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill

by FlyByKnight on Aug 10, 2008 3:56 AM EDT   0 recs

The thought I had when the Lesnar fight started was

“What good would it do to throw a headkick at him? He’s just gonna throw those iron pistons in the way, and there’s no chance you can get through to his head, so why bother?”

What a freak. And yeah, he probably makes most men feel like women, myself included.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Aug 10, 2008 3:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m really over the reaction to comments calling fights, wars. Big friggin’ deal, do something better with your time. Would i use it? Probably not, but in ZERO way does it demean or minimize what soldier go through and sacrifice. Seriously, get over it. That said, goldberg sucks and sucks harder with each outing.

GSP is great, fitch is tough. What about this didn’t we already know? GSP>>>>>>>the rest of the 170s/BJ>>>>>>the rest of the 155s/Silva>>>>>>>>the rest of the 185s. Lets see these guys get it on! Seriously, those divisions are extremely competitive, except for the guys holding the belts, they are faaaaarrrrrr ahead of the competition right now.

Lesner looked good. He looked like a completely different fighter this time out. What the Hell happened?? A jab! A leg kick! A huge right! Great position control and very patient, selective, effective strikes. i have been a critic, but I will say “Job well done”! And I even enjoyed the theatrics to an extent. he certainly could make things interesting.

Fight of the night for me?? Maia/McDonald hands down. What a great show of bjj from both guys. Attacking, defending, position changes. THAT is what great bjj should look like, and props to the crowd for recognizing it and enjoying the excitement.

Great card, just behind 84 imo.

"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"

by BJJDenver on Aug 10, 2008 4:09 AM EDT   0 recs

I don’t care about a fight being called a war or whatever. I’ll have to rewatch it again, but Goldy made a reference to the actual war being fought. Maybe someone else knows what I’m talking about?

by Mike Fagan on Aug 10, 2008 4:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I only half caught it. It was loud where I was.

i was pointing you out specifically, Mike, simply the world in general. it just seems like all of us sometimes get to caught up in little things.

if Goldberg was completely silent, it would make the broadcast better, lol.

"The bigger the cushion, the sweeter the pushin'"

by BJJDenver on Aug 10, 2008 4:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

There was actually a period in the GSP/Fitch fight where both Goldy and Rogan didn’t say anything for a good 30 seconds. It was wonderful.

by Mike Fagan on Aug 10, 2008 9:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They both

had a really off night, several times they would call a right when it was a left or said Fitch landed a leg kick, when it was GSP, Can’t all be perfect broadcasts though, I’ll pardon them this time for the amount of excitement around these fights

all you gotta do is...

by imapimp08 on Aug 10, 2008 12:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs