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Cardio and Heart Aren't Enough

I've been reading picks for UFC 86 all around the internet for an hour now, and I am yet to come across a compelling case for Forrest winning this fight.  I saw that Frank Trigg picked Forrest, so I kept listening for a good reason, but in the end all he could muster was the same thing others have said:  Forrest just works so hard, he has so much heart, he has so much heart, and he will prove that determination pays off.

If Forrest is able to beat Quinton, it will be because of a combination of skill and heart.  It will take an incredible amount of skill for Forrest to use reach and footwork against Rampage more effectively than Chuck Liddell could in their first fight.  It will take an exceptional amount of skill to either avoid Rampage's takedowns, or be the first guy to submit Rampage since Sakuraba.  

It kind of bothers me that people chalk up all of Forrest's accomplishments to his heart and hard work alone.  One of the primary factors that got him the win over Shogun was his defensive guard.  Shogun was able to get Forrest down multiple times, but he was never able to do any damage on the ground, and he gassed himself out spending minutes trying to pass guard and failing.  That was an incredible performance, and it doesn't do Forrest's skill justice to act like he simply won because he had more heart and better cardio than Shogun.  He pulled off an omoplata off Shogun to reverse from the bottom, a move that helped him win a round.  His heart may have kept him in the right mindset to pull it off, but the skill it takes to pull that off against a guy like Shogun shouldn't be ignored.  

To win tomorrow, Forrest will need a lot more than heart and cardio.  His cardio is legendary, but he's never had a cardio performance as good as Quinton's against Dan Henderson, where he emerged the fresher man after five rounds of intense wrestling with a world class wrestler.  Further, it's not fair to Quinton for everyone to talk as if he has no heart or desire to succeed.  He was all but written off by hardcore fans two years ago, and he didn't climb back up the mountain without heart.  Many lesser men would have collapsed and faded after the brutal knockouts he took.

If Forrest Griffin wins tomorrow, it'll be because of a combination of fighting skill, his will to win, and his cardio.  Discounting his skill does him a disservice, and also does a disservice to the guys he beats.

All that being said, heart and cardio obviously matter.  If it is a close fight going into the fifth, those things may carry the day.  All this being said, I don't think Forrest has the skills to win this fight, but if anyone can make the case without using his heart and cardio as a crutch, I want to hear it.

 

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I'm just hoping...

...that Forrest has enough cardio and heart to last the distance so I win my prop bet of Rampage by decision.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

"The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls and looking like hard work." -- Thomas Edison

by brentbrookhouse on Jul 5, 2008 2:39 AM EDT   0 recs

What did you get it at?

by Mike Fagan on Jul 5, 2008 3:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jackson by 5 round decision...

i got that at 9/2. I don’t usually mess around with prop bets. But I think Forrest may be gritty enough to just get beat up for 5 rounds rather than stopped.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

"The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls and looking like hard work." -- Thomas Edison

by brentbrookhouse on Jul 5, 2008 8:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

they really have some tempting lines don’t they?

by Michael Rome on Jul 5, 2008 2:49 AM EDT   0 recs

It seems to me that picking Forrest to win by decision is the best possible bet.

I give him about a 20% chance to win the fight, but if he wins, it will almost certainly be by decision. Picking Forrest straight up at + 200 makes no sense when you can basically get the same bet at +600.

by Michael Rome on Jul 5, 2008 3:52 AM EDT   0 recs

Well-put.

by Popetastic on Jul 5, 2008 4:01 AM EDT   0 recs

I believe Forrest has more heart and better cardio and will win based off those two things.

by MrNiceGuyMMA on Jul 5, 2008 4:09 AM EDT   0 recs

I liken Forrest winning to Sherk beating Penn. Sherk had cardio and heart and desire to win but not enough tools to put it in action, Forrest seems to be in the same boat.

by pr0cs on Jul 5, 2008 9:27 AM EDT   0 recs

I think the difference between those ended up being that Forrest had a reach advantage while Sherk had disadvantage in the reach department.

by Richard on Jul 6, 2008 3:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Frank Trigg

Is also notoriously bad at predicting fights. He’s got a wealth of knowledge about the fight game, but came seem to use it for predictive value.

by Luke Thomas on Jul 5, 2008 9:53 AM EDT   0 recs

great analysis Michael.

by monkeyfightclub! on Jul 5, 2008 10:56 AM EDT   0 recs

The analysis is correct. It will take more than just heart and cardio, because Forrest has some real talent also. He has a great ground game, but he tends to prefer to bang. I think he’ll be smart, he’ll scramble with every take down, and I think he has a good shot at submitting Rampage. I know all the numbers indicate Rampage will win, but sometimes you just go with a gut feeling, and that’s what I have that makes me think Forrest can win.

by pud333 on Jul 5, 2008 11:23 AM EDT   0 recs

even the UFC.com writers

are saying the same thing about how his heart and his mind are his best chances at winning the fight… I say Forrest should have trained with Machida for this fight instead of Wanderlei… I think his feet work and being elusive will be his key to victory.

My money is on Rampage!

7/5 - UFC 86: Jackson vs. Griffin
Live on PPV at 10 pm ET

7/19 - Affliction: Banned
Live on PPV at 9pm ET

7/19 - UFC: Silva vs. Irvin
Live on Spike at 9 pm ET

7/21 - DREAM 5: Lightweight Grand Prix Finals
On HDNet at 4 am ET

7/26 - EliteXC: Unfinished Business
Live on CBS at 9 pm ET

8/3 - WEC 35
Live on Versus at 9 pm ET

8/9 - UFC 87: Seek And Destroy
Live on PPV at 10 pm ET

9/6 - Adrenaline MMA II
Live on HDNet (time TBA)

9/6 - UFC 88: Breakthrough
Live on PPV at 10 pm ET

9/10 - WEC: Filho vs. Sonnen II
Live on Versus (time TBA)

9/17 - UFC Fight Night 15
Live on Spike (time TBA)

by imapimp08 on Jul 5, 2008 12:03 PM EDT   0 recs

Forrest's guard

Thanks Michael for making the point of Forrest’s guard during his fight with Rua. Previous to that fight his ground defense looked like lots of other standup styled fighters, but as soon as he hit his back in the Rua fight, it looked like he’d been rolling with Gracies since he was in diapers. His closed guard was steel trap tight, and he was able to transition well from the closed guard to attacking out of his open guard, which allowed his omoplata attempt sweep. (one spicey meatball!)

by MMAsubb on Jul 5, 2008 12:42 PM EDT   0 recs

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