UFC 85 Post-Event Thoughts
by Kid Nate on Jun 8, 2008 9:30 PM EDT
in MMA News
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PrintIt didn't really deliver any classic fights, but still had several fights that will impact their divisions. And controversy, lots of controversy. Here's my quick thoughts on UFC 85:
- Thiago Alves has NOT earned a title shot. When you come in 4 pounds overweight, you're treading water, not moving forward. I say Alves needs to beat another contender before getting a shot. Beating a Koscheck or a Sanchez would definitively earn Alves a shot.
- Bisping looked good at 185, again. Let's put him in against Martin Kampmann with the winner being one fight away from a title shot. One of the submission monsters in the 185lb class would also be a good test for Bisping -- any of Leites, Maia, or Palhares would do. If they want to push a Bisping/A. Silva title fight, I'd keep him away from the murderer's row of Franklin, Henderson, Marquardt and Okami.
- Mike Swick has established himself at welterweight and Marcus Davis, while putting in a game performance, is clearly not a title contender in that toughest of UFC divisions. I'd like to see Swick kept on the contender's track, maybe facing Sanchez, Kim or Yoshida next.
- It's time for Brandon Vera to cut weight and fight at 205. I still think Fabricio Werdum is the most over-rated heavyweight in the world, but he muscled Vera around.
- The refs did a really bad job. Miragliotta and Dean made bad calls that determined the outcomes of two fights.
- Nate Marquardt got robbed, but he fought a very dirty fight and doesn't have a finishing game. Nate the Great's piledriver was patently illegal and more than made up for the elbow to the back of the head he was wrongly called for. Plus that illegal knee had to impair Leites for the rest of the fight. I'd like to see a do-over of that match.
- Luiz Cane was very impressive. Would love to see him fight Reljic or Sokoudjou next.
- Matt Wiman has established himself as a for reals contender at 155. Thiago Tavares is a bad bad man and Wiman beat him with great BJJ defense on the ground. The TUF 5 class that Wiman comes out of is far and away the best ever -- with Nate Diaz, Manny Gamburyan, Maynard, Lauzon, and Cole Miller all establishing themselves as legit UFC fighters and Corey Hill remaining a very hot prospect. Hopefully Tavares will get another shot, he's a very talented youngster and could easily re-establish himself as a contender.
[UPDATE] by Nick Thomas: Post Fight Press Conference
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my thoughts...
Alves…
-many are comparing to Lutter, but by most estimations, Travis was given the "chance of a lifetime", by getting a TITLE shot without following the normal path. He had months to prepare and still missed weight for a championship fight. the fact that it was only a 1.5 overage, makes it even that much worse, imo.
-Alves took the fight on somewhat short notice, and battled a late injury that affected his ability to cut the weight. I’m not giving him a pass, but I can cut him a LITTLE slack.
-He probably deserves to be in line for a title shot, but as I have stated in prior posts, he needs at least one more fight, to show he can make the 170 cut off for championship fights.
-I didn’t think he deserved the bonus for ko of the night because of his failing to make weight, and that should be a new rule they have in the UFC.
Reffing…
-Consistency seems to be a big problem, not only from ref to ref, but fight to fight as well as judge to judge. IMO, this is a HUGE problem that could impact the way the sport is accepted by more mainstream audiences.
-Of the past few weeks, I have to say that the Vera stoppage was the worst instance. There has to be a way for the ref to pause the fight and get a better look at the fighter, without something like an 8 count.
Marquardt…
-In my initial viewing, I was a little disgusted by Nate’s "tactics", but I rewatched it a couple times and that elbow was pretty OK by me, but i could see how in the heat of action, Herb would call it. I do have a little problem with all the back to the head fouls, when fighters are intentionally turning their heads away, even turning their backs to their opponents. i don’t expect them to sit their and get hit, but there are better ways to defend.
-The spike on the head, looked a little like he was trying to flip him up and slam him on his back, but just failed to do so after 3 rounds of fighting. could have been tired and slippery, just not sure on this one.
-the illegal knee. No doubt it was illegal, however, I don’t think nate did it intentionally. If you rewatch the fight, leites is on one foot and one knee. he comes up off that knee to stand, but immediately goes back down to it. Unfortunatley, Nate was in the process of striking, so I think it was just bad timing.
Bisping…
-They should just strip Anderson of his belt and give it to Bisping, according to much of the internet chatter.
-Ok, Seriously, he did what he was supposed to do yesterday and beat on a guy that didn’t put up much of a fight. Sorry, I am ok with MB, but I need to see much more before I anoint him as the next great 185er.
Swick…
-1 good fight and 1 bad fight do not make you a contender. I need to see him beat someone who is a legit top 10 before I will make that judgement. He controlled Davis well, and fought smart, cutting open a fighter who cuts easily. Perfectly fine, I just need to see more than those 2 fights.
Matt Wiman…
-Did you say “for reals”, for reals??
-Nice fight for him, I like him, but again, you need to do more before you become a contender. One thing I dislike about mma, is the fighter of the moment attitude. Guy like Houston Alexander, while impressive, need to prove themselves. Wiman is on his way and certainly deserves some bigger fights now, but lets slow down a bit on these guys.
Overall, I thought 85 was a pretty good card. It had to follow in 84’s huge footsteps, but considering how cursed it seemed to be, it was just fine.
"They said you was hung!!"
"And they was RIGHT!"
Wiman's earned it
Tavares is a no doubt legit contender at 155, or was before getting KTFO’d.
And thanks for noticing “for reals”, I was giggling as I typed it and wondering if anyone would appreciate it.
All I mean by “contender track” is that I’d like to see the top guys in the division fight each other en route to title shots rather than following parallel tracks that get them title shots without ever facing the other top 5’ers.
I’m a big Tavares fan, and it was a good fight. I also hope Tavares gets to stick around, as I think he can be a top fighter. Wiman certainly earned the notice, and definitely put himself on the map with that win, I just don’t want to rush things to much. And I agree, I would much rather see a guy fight 5 good fighters and go, say 4-1 and get a title shot. Much better than going 5-0 against mid level guys.
It just seems like the last couple of years, you don’t have to do much in order to be considered a contender (not Wiman, just a general statement).
"They said you was hung!!"
"And they was RIGHT!"
Couldn’t agree more about Bisping. I’d like to see him matched up against a better opponent in his next fight, maybe someone like Jason Macdonald. It’s time for Bisping to fight some guys who can push him a little bit.
I seem to recall a fair number of people thinking he was a prime candidate to be upset on Saturday and instead absolutely mauled his opponent.
by Richard Wade on Jun 9, 2008 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t trying to imply that Bisping’s win wasn’t impressive, because it was. MacDonald has been in the cage with some of the best fighters the UFC has at 185, and a MacDonald-Bisping fight would reveal if Bisping is ready for the top of the division. The Day fight showed it’s a step Bisping is ready for.
I actually think Bisping/McDonald is an excellent choice. While I wouldn’t mind seeing him against Leben for the fun of it, i think McDonald would be the better “test” for him.
"They said you was hung!!"
"And they was RIGHT!"
The Leben fight would be a fun one to watch.
by Richard Wade on Jun 10, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
Nate Marquardt got robbed, but he fought a very dirty fight and doesn’t have a finishing game. Nate the Great’s piledriver was patently illegal and more than made up for the elbow to the back of the head he was wrongly called for. Plus that illegal knee had to impair Leites for the rest of the fight. I’d like to see a do-over of that match.
Huh? Where was the robbery?
He lost the first round 10-9.
Second round he won, but lost a point for the illegal knee so 9-9 (19-18 Leites)
Third round he won, but lost a point for the illegal elbow, which was garbage, but he should’ve had a point taken away for the spike so 9-9 is the correct score, making it 28-27 for Leites.
You start the paragraph saying he was robbed, but then say that he deserved to have two points taken away (which cost him the fight).
well clearly
I’m struggling to cope with the aftermath of the tragic disaster.
I kid.
Yeah you’ve got me in a contradiction, but that’s why I think the only solution is a rematch. It was a good fight that was impacted by fouls and bad reffing. I think they deserve a do over.
As we watched the fight, my wife and I looked at each other and said, “Dana White should walk right into the dressing rooms and offer them a rematch in three months.” It’s the only logical thing to do. And the could actually build some hype around it, despite it being a non-title fight in the MW division.
by AJB on Jun 9, 2008 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Nate
You still haven’t said anything about Hughes yet. Hah.
"Common sense is in spite of, not as the result of education. "
-Victor Hugo
am I supposed to be upset about Hughes losing?
I’ve never been a fan of Matt Hughes. I thought he’d beat Alves but that’s just because I mistakenly assumed Hughes’ groundNpound was comparable to Jon Fitch’s.
Thiago Alves has NOT earned a title shot. When you come in 4 pounds overweight, you’re treading water, not moving forward.
No doubt. And he has the balls at the end of the fight to say “I been a good boy, Mr. White. Please give me a title shot.” Being a good boy isn’t coming in 4 pounds over for a main event…
Re: Alves
The conditions under which a guy doesn’t make weight matter. If someone like possibly Carano just says “fuck it, I don’t have time to cut, I’ll take the purse hit” that’s a little different than a guy who tooka fight on short notice and then, if Alves wasn’t lying, sprained his ankle 10 days before the fight. I’m not an Alves nut-hugger, but I think Dana isn’t hammering him for that reason. There may have even been a phone call where Alves’ management called Dana and explained his injury – on a card like this, I’m sure the UFC would have preferred that Alves show up heavy than not show up at all. It would have killed an already cursed card. So, it’s possible (I almost think likely, based on the way Dana and the commentating team handled it) that Alves was asked to fight even if he couldn’t make weight rather than pull out of the fight.
I’m just saying, we shouldn’t just blast people whent hey don’t make weight, we should find out the circumstances. If it’s true that Alves had a sprained ankle 10 days before the fight, and still took a fight with a tough opponent on short notice, and the UFC management doesnt seem to be too upset by it, I don’t think it bothers me too much either. I agree, though,t hat it’s normally the height of unprofessionalism.
Werdum isn’t overrated at all. In fact, I find him mostly “unrated.” I’ve seen very few people are vocal about him on either side. I think saying he’s over-rated takes away from his accomplishments simply because his style seems somewhat lackluster. It is akin to holding Machida down because of his elusive style. A win is a win no matter how you get it. And he did dominate Vera in the later part of the round, so you can’t blame the incompetent Miragliotta for stopping it too soon. With two wins over Gonzaga, one over A. Emelianenko and Overeem, and losing hard-fought and possibly questionable decisions to Nogueira and Kharitonov. He deserves everything he’s got and more. I think he’s even closer to Nogueira’s skill level than before and he deserves the fight against the HW Champ more than anyone else there is. That is, unless they bring in another big name but that seems unlikely.
I think his style is sloppy, not lackluster.
Werdum’s standup is really bad and I haven’t been impressed by his takedowns either. Guy has heart and power but I don’t think he’s a top 3 heavyweight. Top 10, yes.
Vera's Half-Guard is Sloppy
I can agree that Werdum isn’t a top 3 but I think he has earned a title shot in the UFC a lot more than Frank Mir has. I understand the reasoning for Nogueira-Mir based on marketting, of course, but it is clear that Mir was handed pocket aces. If we want cheap thrills in a fight, we can go for Mir. If we want to pick a contender based on credentials – and not by our perception of his style – then we should recognize Werdum as the #1 UFC Contender. The stoppage over Vera may have been questionable, and I enjoy watching him fight tremendously, but I saw enough in their bout to show that Werdum is the superior fighter.
by KneeToTheFace on Jun 9, 2008 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
this is true
its obvious that marketability is the only reason Werdum isn’t fighting for the heavyweight belt. I wonder who they’ll make him fight next.
It might not be a bad idea to have him go down the ladder and face some lesser ranked names. Perhaps the winner of Herring/Lesnar. That way, if he wins it’s just building his credibility to fight Minotauro, and if he loses it just builds up that person that much. And if Werdum does indeed have poor standup as you claim, then it’s only a matter of time before someone with KO power lands one on him.
by KneeToTheFace on Jun 9, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
You say Vera’s half guard is sloppy without explaining at all why Vera’s half guard is sloppy. If it’s because a four time BJJ world champ that happens to be 250lbs passed it, that’s not really a good reason.
hehe I suppose that’s true. By saying sloppy I was insinuating that is was Vera’s own fault he got mounted and stopped. Obviously his BJJ isn’t going to be on par with Werdum so “sloppy” can be considered a relative term.
by KneeToTheFace on Jun 9, 2008 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Great Discussion
Good read and discussion fella’s. All though I wasn’t able to catch the fight, you guys have painted a good picture.
Who does Alves get matched up with next if he isn’t in line? It looks to me like the brass likes Mike Swick, and they would be on the same timeline to fight later in the fall. I wouldn’t mind seeing him match up with Chris Wilson though. I think that would be a fair measuring tape.
That would be a fun fight. As for Swick, I’d like to see him fight somebody more likely to challenge him on the ground.
by Richard Wade on Jun 9, 2008 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
And by no means am I implying that Chris Wilson is closer to the title than Matt Hughes. It would be an interesting scrap, however.
Right...
I actually think that fight would be a hell of a fun brawl to watch.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
"The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls and looking like hard work." -- Thomas Edison
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 8, 2008 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Hughes vs. Wilson?
Chris Wilson is talented but I don’t think he would take well to Hughes. From what I’ve seen he lacks KO power which is what you need to put Matt Hughes away (or a flying knee).
by KneeToTheFace on Jun 9, 2008 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Vera whining like a baby...
...in that press conference.
by idefinecagefighter on Jun 9, 2008 4:43 AM EDT reply actions
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