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Kaitlin Young's Bargain

An intriguing line of speculation from the fan posts. Kid Nate

Following upon my post  about how not making weight may have been a good move for Gina Carano, I have some questions about the kind of reasoning Kaitlin Young had to do. 

There's been a lot of talk about how "the fix was in" for some of the fights at EliteXC Primetime. But what if it made more sense for a fighter to lose than to win? I don't have any evidence, there's no reason to suspect that anyone threw a fight, and until the payouts are released this is just idle speculation, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

Stated simply: what if the 12.5% that Young got from losing to Carano was more than her win bonus?

The information about the deal that was worked out has been very vague, but it sounds like Young was to receive her base pay, her win bonus if applicable, and 12.5% of whatever Carano made. What we don't know is if that percentage was of her fight pay, her win pay, or her combined pay, and this makes a huge difference. The way it was reported certainly sounded like the primary factor was Carano's combined pay. We can safely assume that Carano is making more than Young, but how much is up in the air. But there's a good chance that it was significant. Let's try some math: 

If Young was paid $10K to fight and $10K to lose, and Carano was paid $100K to fight and $100K to win, winning the fight would get Young $32.5K: $10K + $10K + $12.5. Losing would get her $35K: $10K + $25K. Now I obviously made those numbers up, but for a first time fighter and a headliner, that doesn't sound too unreasonable. In fact, it might be a bit conservative.

But let's play with the numbers: If Young were paid $4K/$4K - a reasonable amount - and Gina still made $100K/$100K, winning would get Kaitlin $20.5K, while losing would get her $33K. If Gina made $50K/$50K, the difference between winning and losing is $14.25K/$18.5K. 

Obviously, it's all more complicated than this. Winning has other consequences than just a bonus: more and better sponsors, higher pay for the next fight, and even a long-term contract are all worth something. But that all depends on how risk averse Young is. Would it be better to make an additional few thousand and risk tanking her career? Who can say?

This is of course not an attempt to say that Young threw the fight: she was clearly fighting very hard, and she doesn't seem like the kind of person who would be motivated to risk her career for a few extra dollars. But there are fighters who have more bills and less scruples than her, and this kind of arrangement (large difference in fighter pay, penalties assessed as a percentage) is clearly a moral quagmire waiting to happen.

Organizations need to come up with a different way of arranging for these penalties, before this kind of problem becomes an issue. But again: this is all speculation. What do you think?

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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I don't think

that the money played a role in Kaitlyn’s performance, but I think you’re very correct to point out the potential for conflicts of interest that this system presents.

by Kid Nate on Jun 2, 2008 8:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreement and Solution?

I agree and you raised a good point here.

The correct any potential future problems, the 10-15% win bonus (or whatever is decided) should be determined from the average of the two fighter’s salaries for that particular fight. In the case where the average would still be higher (if we were using a crazy example like 20k vs, 200k), we would have to average only half of higher paid fighter’s winnings with the full amount of the lower paid fighter’s winnings. It may sound complex and I’m sure I did a bad job of explaining, but it would certainly put an end to the mess.

by mma opinion on Jun 2, 2008 3:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't think so

Those aren’t crazy examples by the way. From UFC 84:

  • BJ Penn ($250,000) def. Sean Sherk ($35,000)
  • Wanderlei Silva ($150,000) def. Keith Jardine ($10,000)
  • Thiago Silva ($50,000) def. Antonio Mendes ($4,000)
  • Dong Hyun Kim ($40,000) def. Jason Tan ($3000)

I think the real answer is to leave the win bonus out of it entirely and have the fine/fee paid by the overweight fighter come out of not their win bonus but their base salary. This way, both fighters are getting the same amount regardless of performance – and therefore have no incentive to lose.

However, none of this addresses the point made in my other entry on this topic: Allowing fights like this to go off with a small fine let’s highly paid fighters like Carano buy their way out of a difficult cut. Here’s the crux of my argument:

Carano could attempt the cut and end up weakened in mind and body which would mean risking her win bonus – and therefore a full half of her pay. Or she could save herself a miserable cut and just get to where she could on the scale but come in as fresh and strong as possible, all for an eighth of her pay. That means making 75% more than if she lost the fight.

How do we fix that situation? Somebody suggested increasing the percentage of the fine each time, but institutionalizing a rule like that could hurt lower-tier fighters who aren’t making much per fight that have a problem making weight. And why might they have a hard time making weight? Possibly because unlike the top-tier folks, they can’t hire strength and conditioning coaches and nutritionists to help them mange their weight. The system needs to be flexible enough to address not just incentives to lose, but also income inequality.

(Of course, a better idea overall might be to make win bonuses the same for both fighters regardless of outcome: if Penn deserved $125K for beating Sherk, why would Sherk have only made $35K for beating Penn? Wouldn’t that have been a more impressive feat? But now I just sound like a socialist…)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.

by jemaleddin on Jun 2, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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