The Light Heavyweight Picture

by Michael Rome on May 25, 2008 9:53 PM EDT in News Comment 29 comments

The Light Heavyweight division emerged from UFC 84 with more clarity than before, but still very muddled. Simply put, there is nobody right now who deserves an immediate title shot against the winner of Rampage and Forrest. The top half of the contenders includes Wand, Thiago, Machida, Shogun, Liddell, and Rashad Evans. Both Chuck and Shogun are expected to return in September, which is right around the time all the guys who just fought should begin fighting again. There's also the possibility of Rich Franklin moving to 205, which is very likely in my view considering the place he is in right now at 185.

What matchups do Bloody Elbow readers want to see next? Here are my picks (and why)

Chuck Liddell v. Shogun Rua: This fight was supposed to go down in June, it's a fight we've wanted to see for years, and it should be explosive. Plus, either guy fighting Rampage is a great PPV main event.

Rich Franklin v. Lyoto Machida: I think it's time for a rematch here. I suspect Lyoto wins this, though I think Rich has the ability to make it close. The story to build the fight is obvious, and it will help to get Machida over more to beat Ortiz and Franklin.

Wanderlei Silva v. Rashad Evans: I've been waiting to see Rashad get KTFO for a long time and this is the fight. He's not big enough to hold Wand down the entire fight, especially with Wand now training at Xtreme Couture. It's an interesting styles fight and it will give Wand the opportunity to kill another man. Plus, given the friendship of Rashad and Jardine, they have an interesting angle to hype it up from.

Thiago Silva v. Sokoudjou: Sok lost to Machida, sure, but so will almost everybody else. He just KO'ed Nakamura, which Shogun and Machida both failed to do. I think he has a very bright UFC future, and suspect he can take this one.

What do you guys want to see?

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Comments

I wanna see someone that can beat Machida. What would happen if Chuck fought Machida?

by Yasnian on May 25, 2008 10:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the most boring fight of all time

Chuck and Machida are both counter fighters. The main differences between them are that Chuck isn’t as quick and he has KO power. Chuck also doesn’t really set up his shots any more, he just looks to land that right hook bomb.
Liddell and Machida would both dance away from each other for 3 rounds. Machida would win on points.

by Kid Nate on May 25, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For Chuck to beat Machida, he’d have to do more than wait for the bomb. He’d have to bring the same aggressive game he brought to the Silva fight, and also make Machida think about takedowns. Facing Ortiz, Machida never really had to worry about strikes, I suspect his respect for Chuck’s strikes could open up some takedown possibilities.

One thing that always gets understated about the Jardine fight is that Chuck’s heart just wasn’t in it. It was pretty clear he didn’t give a shit about fighting Jardine, and unless he can care about his fight Chuck isn’t going to come out aggressive.

by Michael Rome on May 25, 2008 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yea I know two counter fighters. It would be hilarious to watch. They would be outta their element.

by Yasnian on May 25, 2008 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I see machida kind of like a Chuck without devastating ko power. If people bitched about this weekend, I can’t imagine what would happen after this. It might break the internet!

"They said you was hung!!"

"And they was RIGHT!"

by BJJDenver on May 26, 2008 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That’s a tough fight to pick, though I suspect Machida. It’s possible that Liddell could rock him with a shot, but Jardine was very successful against Liddell picking his shots, and I don’t know if Chuck is quick enough to catch up to Machida. Either way, I’d be absolutely shocked if they made that fight, Dana isn’t sacraficing Chuck to Machida.

by Michael Rome on May 25, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

good matchups

I like seeing Sokoudjou back in the mix. He’s a ringer for sure. I’d really rather see Sokoudjou vs Shogun and let Liddell fight Wandy again, winner gets Rampage. Because I don’t think the UFC fan base sees Shogun as anything special. And even for the informed fan, Sokoudjou IMO has earned a crack at Shogun.

by Kid Nate on May 25, 2008 10:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I understand the appeal of Liddell/Wandy, but man, I don’t want to see Wand lose again so quickly after that big win. I just feel like after Chuck/Rampage, they’d have no more big title fights for next year if Wand lost again.

by Michael Rome on May 25, 2008 10:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wanderlei vs. Rampage

With the defeat of Jardine, I think Wanderlei earned the right to face Rampage (assuming Jackson beats Griffin). Wandy owns TWO wins over the current UFC champion. He lost a hard-fought battle to Lidell and just demolished Jardine (who beat Lidell and Forest, and whom some were saying deserved a shot at the belt if he beat Wandy). I would much love to see Rampage have to face his nemesis.

by thetakeover on May 25, 2008 11:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He is also

2-3 in his last 5 fights. Recent history has to play into title contention. I love Silva like a crackhead loves his favorite crackpipe. But I can’t justify one win over Jardine after three straight losses as “earning a right at a title shot.” I’d like to see Wandy/Rampage…In fact I’d love to see it. But I think Silva needs another win before I can talk about him having earned his shot.

I’d like to see:

Wandy vs. Franklin – I think Franklin would have trouble with Wandy and it would be a credible win that you could use to justify a title shot. And let’s face it. We need to see Silva/Page again before Silva really starts to go downhill. He is fairly young but he has packed a lot of HARD fights into his career already.

Shogun vs. Soko – I think the matchmaking is good in that ONE of the former PRIDE stars should come out of the fight looking legit.

Liddell vs. Thiago SIlva – It’d be a striking war…but it is a bad matchup for Chuck and I think Dana really wants to go into “protection mode” with Chuck.

Machida vs. Evans – I know…it would be boring to most people (it’d look like the Tito fight without the crowd being SO into things). But the “somebody’s 0 must go” storyline is always a good one…and it is a good way to get one of the two “unmarketables” out of the picture.

Jardine deserves a bounce back fight without a ton of danger. He’s fought a real tough schedule over the past couple years and I wouldn’t really think it was tacky to let him have one fight that verges on a “gimmie.”

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on May 26, 2008 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2-3 in his last 5 fights. Recent history has to play into title contention.

So should quality of opposition. W.Silva is still #3 in the LHW Division. His losses are to CroCop, Henderson and a split decision to Liddell. All are top fighters and CropCop and Henderson are both outside the weight class. In other words, the only LHW with a win over Silva is Liddell. Silva also owns 2 devastating wins against the current champion, Jackson. And he just knocked out Jardine, who recently defeated Liddell and the current contender, Griffin. One more win and Silva should fight for the title.

Machida vs. Evans – I know…it would be boring to most people

Machida vs Evans is a terrible idea. Yes, it would look like Machida vs Ortiz, who is almost identical to Evans. Machida needs to be tested by a fight style he hasn’t encountered yet. Liddell vs Machida would be interesting but I think W.Silva is the ultimate test for Machida.

Evans, on the other hand, needs to face a top-ranked striker to reveal whether he belongs in the Light Heavyweight elite. He has already fought a bunch of grapplers and only a mediocre striker in Bisping. I think Liddell, Rua and both Silvas would destroy Evans.

Jardine deserves a bounce back fight without a ton of danger

That was supposed to be H. Alexander but Jardine blew it. He should fight someone near the bottom of the Top 10, like T.Silva. If he wins, he then fights a Top 5 fighter, and if he wins that, title shot. If he loses to Silva, we’ll know Jardine’s victories over Griffin and Liddell were flukes.

by klown on May 26, 2008 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey man…opinions are opinions. The Alexander fight wasn’t exactly a “bounce back” fight. I’m saying that the guy won some tough, big name battles and now if they want to give him a lesser opponent to get back on track I’m not going to raise a big stink.

Wandy is a bigger test for Machida, but I don’t think that Dana is in any rush to get Machida into a title fight, so that can happen soon enough. I think one of Machida and Evans need to be removed from the title picture and having them fight accomplishes that.

As for Wandy…you echoed what I said basically. One more win and he can fight for the title. The destruction of Jardine was a nice step in the right direction but I’d like to see one more win before I say “give him the shot.” As for only one of those losses coming to someone in the division…I don’t think it exactly works as a boost to say you got jacked by a guy the division below you.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on May 26, 2008 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

As for only one of those losses coming to someone in the division…I don’t think it exactly works as a boost to say you got jacked by a guy the division below you.

Only if the man in question is Henderson. If he were still competing at LHW, I’d put Henderson in second place, above Liddell (based on their respective performances against the champion). So Henderson’s inclusion only pushes Silva from 4th to 5th place in the LHW rankings.

Hey man…opinions are opinions.

Thanks for exchanging yours with me.
Cheers!

by klown on May 26, 2008 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gotta chime in on Jardine.

He does not deserve to sniff a title shot right now. Sure, give him an easy fight, he deserves a gimmie, but that will carry no weight in getting a shot.

Lost a close fight to Bonnar, who hasn’t done much since TUF. KO’d Forrest, fine, but I’d take Griffin 9/10 times. KTFO by Houston, evens out the Forrest win and the constant replays probably hurt jardine as much as the loss. Decisioned Chuck in very unimpressive fashion, i actually thought he looked really bad in this fight, but kicked his way to a win. Destroyed by Wandy.

Sorry, but i don’t see that as a title contender. Additionally, Forrest wasn’t seen as a big contender at that time, and many thought Chuck was washed up. Add in the fact that Jardine doesn’t have a huge fanbase to push for him, and I don’t see him getting near the belt for some time, if ever.

"They said you was hung!!"

"And they was RIGHT!"

by BJJDenver on May 26, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Based on my ranking of the UFC LHW Division:

1. Jackson
2. Liddell
3. W.Silva
4. Jardine
5. Griffin
6. Rua
7. Machida
8. Sokoudjou
9. T. Silva
10. Evans

... here are match-ups that make sense.

W.Silva vs Machida for shot at the title. Silva’s style is the perfect test for Machida. Can Machida handle a relentless strike and and an aggressive clincher?

Liddell vs Evans for the next title shot. I believe Liddell would knock Evans out. On the off chance Evans beats Liddell, he would have earned his shot at the title. Keep in mind, the opponent could be any of Jackson, Griffin, Silva or Machida.

Rua vs Sokoudjou: Sokoudjou asked for it and why not? An interesting clash of styles by 2 Top 10 fighters. The winner would earn a shot at one of the 3 fighters coming off a loss from the above match-ups (Jackson/Griffin/Silva/Machida/Liddell/Evans)

T.Silva vs Jardine: If Jardine wins, he keeps Top 10 status, but needs at least one more win to earn a title shot. If Silva wins, he fights another of the fighters coming off a loss from the 3 matches above.

by klown on May 26, 2008 12:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Honestly I think Liddell would absolutely crush Thiago, whose hands are extremely overrated. Going back to the Irvin fight, Irvin was hanging right in there until the freak injury, and it’s not like Silva completely tooled Drwal standing. Mendes was doing extremely well against Thiago as well. Thiago has tremendous jiu jitsu, but he wouldn’t get Chuck down, and would likely be knocked out first round.

by Michael Rome on May 26, 2008 1:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I just don't...

...like Chuck vs. “guy who is younger and quicker” anymore. He could very well pull off a win in that match…and if he did that would be phenomenal for the UFC and it wouldn’t really set Silva’s career back too much in anyone’s eyes. If he gave it a good go it could actually boost his worth to the fans. That is part of why that particular fight would be very compelling for me.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on May 26, 2008 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you mean, and fights like that make me wish MMA was popular enough that we could see it weekly for free without worrying which fights were marketable. As it is, Chuck is only going to face guys that can win and go on to major things. Rashad, Shogun, Rampage, and even Rich Franklin fit that bill. I’d be surprised if it was anyone else.

by Michael Rome on May 26, 2008 1:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Honestly I think Jardine will end up fighting Forrest in a rebound rematch after Forrest loses to Rampage.

Of course, throwing Forrest into the possible mix creates all sorts of interesting matchups.

Wand/Machida is the fight I am most interested in, but at the same time I hate the idea of 30-27 Machida victory so much that I hope they don’t do it. However, I do think Wanderlei Silva is the guy most likely to beat Machida for a variety of reasons, and I would immediately buy a PPV to see that fight.

by Michael Rome on May 26, 2008 2:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Two names are being overlooked in the “throw them into the mix and things get interesting” game.

Stephan Bonnar and Matt Hamill. Hell…even throw Tim Boestch in the mix and you’ve got three names that are going to give people a hell of a fight…and even better…Matt and Stephan are big time over with the fans.

I think a Bonnar/Jardine rematch makes sense. It is the step down in class I was talking about for Jardine and it is a rematch of a controversial decision.

As for the hammer and the real big Tim…I’d love to see them fight pretty much anyone.

Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on May 26, 2008 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

hmm….nice points.

I really like the idea of a Bonnar/Jardine rematch. winner is back on track and loser is in big trouble.

"They said you was hung!!"

"And they was RIGHT!"

by BJJDenver on May 26, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s too early for Wanderlei to fight Machida. There’s also scheduling, injuries and other issues to take into account. Here are my picks:

Machida vs. T. Silva – Both have perfect 13-0-0 records. Winner would get the title shot.
W. Silva vs. Evans – This would very marketable as mentioned by Rome and should be an easy win for Wandy.
Shogun vs. Liddell – For the same reasons Rome mentioned.
Jardine vs. Sokoudjou – Interesting style matchup
Bonnar vs. Franklin – Easy to hype
Reljic vs. Irvin
Clementi vs. Hamill
Gouveia vs. Mendes

by Flying Gogoplata on May 26, 2008 6:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ugh, scrap Clementi from that post. I guess it should be Reljic vs. Hamill instead with Irvin left to tend his foot.

by Flying Gogoplata on May 26, 2008 6:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Since they're both small enough to do it...

Can we add Fedor and Mirko to the pool of fighters at 205? They both fight at around 220 without cutting, which is about what Chuck and Rampage walk around at. People are always defending those guys stating at HW because they get to face bigger, better opponents, but if all the other competitive guys their size are cutting to 205, is that really true?

Dear Dana: re-sign Mirko and after the Adrenaline/Affliction fiascos are over, get Fedor on board, but make them both cut!

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.

by jemaleddin on May 26, 2008 9:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You know the one think I don’t care for and we are seeing a lot of is…

Win a fight and you are a contender. Whether it is a guy coming back or a new face, it seems one win and you are in the title picture.

I like to see guys go the way of Fitch and really put it together, though he may have been made to wait to long, lol.

Is it the internet culture pushing guys, or is it the lack of real contenders? I just think it should be a little harder to get mentioned with established contenders, but maybe I’m way off base.

"They said you was hung!!"

"And they was RIGHT!"

by BJJDenver on May 26, 2008 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Josh Gross had some interesting thoughts on this subject

Four fights we need to see at 205:

Lyoto Machida vs. Thiago Silva
Chuck Liddell vs. Mauricio Rua
Forrest Griffin vs. Rashad Evans
Quinton Jackson vs. Wanderlei Silva—Part III

check out the article for his elaboration

by robnashville on May 26, 2008 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice article

The problem with Griffin vs. Evans is that Rashad hasn’t fought since Nov. 2007. He needs to be tested ASAP against a quality opponent. Griffin can’t fight again until UFC 89. Wanderlei on the other hand can easily make 87. Jackson vs. W. Silva III would definitely happen but it probably won’t come until early 2009.

by Flying Gogoplata on May 26, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think Machida/Thiago is really a good fight. It would stay standing and Machida would pick him apart. I’d rather see Machida tested against another big name, I think he’s earned it with his last two wins. Perhaps Dan Henderson or Shogun.

by Michael Rome on May 27, 2008 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Thiago fight is really just to keep Machida busy and legitimately build up his credentials until he gets the title shot. It definitely won’t headline any event but it’s hype-able enough to be on the main card. Thiago might not like it but he’ll be greatly motivated to win if it’s for the title shot.

Shogun won’t be available soon enough to fight Machida for the title shot and there’s probably a greater possibility Henderson would fight Franklin at MW before either of them move to LHW. I don’t know who Bonnar would fight though (and I retract my earlier Bonnar vs. Franklin pick) but it would have to be someone he can easily beat given his long absence.

by Flying Gogoplata on May 27, 2008 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs