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Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

by Kid Nate on Apr 30, 2008 2:39 PM EDT in News Comment 28 comments

That's the question Curtis Clontz of MMA Opinion is asking:

On one side of the argument, he completed the requirements of his suspension. He should be the #1 contender assuming that he can fight with the same aggressiveness and constant pressure as before. This is the side that I tend to go with. Whether he was taking steroids or not, he completed the required punishment and it is now time to move on. If he is the same guy, Penn in my opinion is the only guy that can fight with Sherk in that division.

On the other side, many think that he should not be fighting for the title. He tested positive and has never came clean. Not one time has he ever stated that he did it and "manned up" for his actions. The Sherk hate was in full effect when Penn said "Sean Sherk your dead!", as Sherk stepped in the ring. The boo birds were flying high and let him hear it. He did test positive, and most fans just want an apology.

It is unlikely we will ever truly know for sure whether Sherk was taking steroids or not. It would take him saying he did it for us to have complete confirmation. Sherk has been one of the most exciting fighters in the smaller weight classes of the UFC. According to the Fight Finder he has an insane 31-2-1 record. Not many can say that, and his only 2 losses were against great fighters. One was to a future Hall of Famer and the best 170 pound fighter of all time in Matt Hughes, the other was to the guy that beat Hughes for his title in George St. Pierre.

Sherk and Penn promises to be a great fight. I am not going to make my prediction yet, but the energy that Sherk will bring, and the great all around game of Penn should make this one of the fights of the year. I believe that Sherk should be fighting for the title. It was his to lose, he lost it, and now it is time for him to make his attempt to become the champion yet again.

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Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Why does everyone assume he did take steriods. It is a known fact that certain supplement have these substances in them and Sherk was taking plenty of supplements. Not to say that he did not take them but it is somthing to think about. I am just saying we should give him the benefit of doubt. If penn throws him around like a rag doll then it will pretty much take any doubt out of my head.

by WhiteyBarrington on Apr 30, 2008 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Whether or not he knowingly took steroids isn't the point. He tested positive for an illegal amount of Nandrolone in his body. The burden of proof that he didn't is on him, and I haven't seen one shred of evidence to say otherwise. Sherk claims he has mountains of paperwork declaring his innocence, but why hasn't he shown them to media?

by MikeyPatriot on Apr 30, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Yeah, he took them. You can tell because he tested positive. And he did tested in both pre- and post-fight tests, if I remember correctly, so it's not like there's some tampering issue.

Testing positive means you took steroids. All this crap about tainted supplements is cooked up by people trying to beat a steroid rap. Who is gonna stick a bunch of expensive steroids in their cheap creatine powder for free? How does that make business sense? Or are we to believe that the products of Jimmy's Vitamin hut are manufactured in the same plant as high-tech steroids? And if people started testing positive for steroids, wouldn't that drive people away from a brand (people who were competing and being tested anyway)?

None of that makes ANY sense. He took the roids, he needs to fess up.

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on Apr 30, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

There's actually pretty compelling evidence that supplements are frequently tainted with illegal steroids.
Keep in mind that the definition of what's illegal changes over time and varies from market to market. Its in the interest of the supplement makers to make their products as powerful as possible while remaining just this side of legal.

by Kid Nate on Apr 30, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

The only sources I've seen for this kind of "supplements contain steroids" story are fighters who've been accused, the lawyers thereof, and the people hired to support that defense. A little suspect. I'm not saying it couldn't ever conceivably happen, I'm saying HOLY CRAP LOOK AT SEAN SHERK! THAT GUY IS RIPPED! Right?

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

I think it's because it is easier for everyone to believe that he can't look like he does, fight with the energy he does and win, just from hard work/genetics. It's easy to say, whatever, this dude jacks a plunger, this dude doesn't work for what he has. It has nothing to do with the fact that he has only ever failed one test in his life. He took a another series of tests right after, he came clean. Doesn't matter, the mentality of "I can't do it, so he must have done it the easy way" is overpowering.

I think it's still much ado about nothing. No one has said anything about Sylvia even though he got busted for being jacked. That was a while ago, but he used steroids nonetheless. I think it has alot to do with the hype of a fight. He gets a couple more contests under his belt and he'll be in the same boat as Sylvia, some dude that tested positive a long time ago.

by Gabber on Apr 30, 2008 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Dude, steroids don't make you muscular - and anybody who says that is an idiot. He obviously works hard. But nandralone is specifically for cutting weight. And a guy with that much muscle who fought for a long time at 170 and comes into the weigh-ins looking that shredded? That's where the roids come in.

As for the one test, the vast majority of his fights were in tiny little rinky-dink promotions against nobodies - how much drug testing do you think they did?

I personally talk shit about Sylvia a lot for the roids. And Josh Barnett too, not that anybody wants to hear it. This stuff is serious: it's cheating. You can disagree and think that it ought to be allowed, but that doesn't change the fact that the guys who do this are cheaters. Right?

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on Apr 30, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

"The positive effects of the drug include muscle growth, appetite stimulation and increased red blood cell production and bone density."

"Deca (AKA Nandrolone) is known for producing quality weight gains, but it has to be used for 12 weeks at a minimum.."

"Many members of Steroid.com also complain of water-retention with this drug, and again, I´m inclined to agree."

Compliments of: http://www.steroid.com/Deca.php

Maybe before you start talking smack man you should check your research. While not a scientific resource I would trust a bunch of guys who do the drug as opposed to a bunch of scientists who test this stuff in a lab. Obviously by all the posts on this one subject, you're a Sherk hater, big time. The fights I mentioned would happen to be in the UFC (Zuffa-era) which are a loss to GSP, and wins over Florian and Diaz. Even if you wanted to classify it as a no-contest, Sherk and Hermes were both jacked and he still won. He fought more times in the UFC but I would doubt the drug testing policy pre-Zuffa.

Great you talk shit about Sylvia, Barnett, Belfort and whoever else, I agree it's cheating. It's bullshit because everyone is trying to do it right, that's the assumption or they're very good at cycling. At no point did I say it was right or should be allowed.

And I don't believe a word you say, it's not because you don't train BJJ, you're just an obvious Sherk hater.

by Gabber on Apr 30, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a Sherk hater, but I'm certainly:

a) No fan of cheaters,
b) No fan of people who don't own up to their mistakes, and
c) No fan of boring fights.

So I'm not a fan. But I bag on the guys I like just as much: nobody was rooting for GSP more than me, but I was really worried about his mental toughness and his stand-up compared to Serra. Thank goodness he stuck with wrestling and GnP.

What really gets my goat is that Sherk came out with all this BS about tainted supplements and people ate it up. Seriously? I mean, it could happen, but have you seen Sean? Outside of Brock Lesnar, who in the UFC looks more like a roid-abuser than him?

My point wasn't that steroids don't promote muscle growth, it's that they don't do it while you sit on the couch and eat cheetos, right? And you can check your sources and I'll check mine, but just about all of the guys busted for nandrolone were doing it to drop fat in order to cut weight. From what I understand, the manner and timing in which you use the drug can determine its particular effects. As a guy who's never used the stuff, I can't speak from personal experience - all I know is what was reported about the fighters.

And talking about him testing clean in the UFC right before you mention that there are people who are good at cycling? Come on... I think we agree on this stuff. :-)

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

I'll have to dig up some of the other sources on contaminated supplements later ('bout to go to bed right now), but they're out there.

As for looking like he's on steroids, that's pretty crappy reasoning. My cousin went in for a physical and the doctor asked him if he was taking steroids. The guy doesn't even take a multivitamin. Some of that shit is genetics.

Intentional Blog on Balls

by Richard Wade on May 1, 2008 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Dude, looking like he was on steroids always made me suspicious. But looking like he's on steroids and then TESTING POSITIVE? Come on!

It's as though you've got a neighbor that you always thought was kinda swishy, and then at a party he sticks his tongue in your mouth. Afterwards he says, "Oh, I'm not gay - I just had too much to drink." YEAH... Whatever, Ryan! I thought you loved me! I thought this was special! We were going to be something!

...oh, sorry, got lost in the metaphor.

But you know where I was going with that right? The looking like he's on steroids is suspicious, but when there are steroids in his blood on top of that? That's a guy on steroids. That's the definition of a guy on steroids.

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

I follow your reasoning, I just think you're far too certain you're right based on evidence that isn't exactly perfect.

Sherk had the steroids in his blood and regardless of how they got there he deserved his suspension, but he's served it now and unless it happens again, I'm willing to accept the possibility that he had tainted supplements because that sort of shit happens, especially to a guy who took something like 40 pills per day. Hell, he was just asking to run into a tainted supplement taking that many.

Intentional Blog on Balls

by Richard Wade on May 1, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Well, we exist in a state of imperfect knowledge throughout our lives. One of the basic tasks of our existence is to figure out which of our sensations are real and which are the result of perceptions and presumptions gone awry.

But this one seems pretty cut and dried to me. Either way: I think BJ needs to beat Sean. I just don't think we should pretend that Sherk's excuses hold more weight than the evidence before us.

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

It's the athletes responsibility to ensure his body is clean of illegal substances regardless if it's intentional or accident consumption.

Relying on the athlete to tell the truth is the most difficult part of the process, because their livelihood is at stake and if they are truly not guilty, lots of people won't believe you anyways, especially if your nick name is the "Muscle Shark".

by DirtyML on Apr 30, 2008 3:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

"According to the Fight Finder he has an insane 31-2-1 record."

Yes, but I have a 200-0 record fighting 6-year-olds. Beat that Sherk. :-) Oh wait, if he were to keep fighting in "BP: Pride and Glory" or "You Think You're Tough" he probably could.

Can we all stop going bananas over his record? Who are those people he was beating anyway?

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on Apr 30, 2008 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

I dunno...how about Karo twice, Manny Gamburyan, Florian, Nick Diaz, Franca...

by BeerMonster on Apr 30, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Karo was 16 at the time and I think Manny was of similar age. Not exactly the most legit wins ever.

by Luke Thomas on Apr 30, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Yeah, that's 6 of his wins. Who are: Joel Blanton, Lee King, Brodie Farber, Darin Brudigan,Gerald Strebendt, Eric Heinz, Jake Short, Kaleo Padilla, Ryuki Ueyama, Charles Taylor, Mark Long, John Alexander, Jutaro Nakao, Claudionor Fontinelle, Kiuma Kunioku, Curtis Brigham, Jason Purcell, Marty Armendarez, Ken Parham, Steve Gomm, Scott Bills, Kurtis Jensen, and Johnnie Holland?

And are we counting Franca as a win? Really? I'd rather say it was a no-contest, wouldn't you?

But sure, he's beaten some good guys. What I was addressing is that his resume is padded with a lot of fights that nobody saw and fighters that nobody heard of. Probably for good reason. Right?

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Jutaro Nakao is an MMA Legend with wins over Shinya Aoki and Pat Militech. Sherk fought him when he was still at the top of his game. Kiuma Kunioku is a talented Pancrase veteran with wins over Nate Marquardt and Genki Sudo.

by Kid Nate on May 1, 2008 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Yes. I'm glad you know that. Now who are the rest of those guys?

You're not addressing my point: Nobody is denying that Sherk is a good fighter (well, I'm not), I'm just saying that his resume isn't as impressive as the numbers sound, in comparison to BJ's. 31 wins is great, but there's a lot of fluff in that list.

If you're disputing that, great - but go ahead and dispute it. :-)

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Actually, Karo was 18 in both fights, and Gamburyan was just short of 20. But I get your point.

by BeerMonster on Apr 30, 2008 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Either way, losses don't expire.

by godzillad on Apr 30, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Upon double checking you are correct. But I dunno, I think the point still stands. Sherk might be able to beat Karo now, but one would be hard pressed to say the fact that he's defeated Karo already is a factor going forward.

by Luke Thomas on Apr 30, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

The above conversations about Sherk - I'm not touching.

As to whether Sherk should be fight BJ Penn for the title - of course. The UFC really has no choice in the matter. Dana White and the UFC have stood beside Sherk throughout this whole mess so he has maintained some (and I repeat - some) credibility. BJ Penn beating Joe Stevenson for the title rather than Sherk puts a cloud over the lightweight title. Whether there should be such a cloud is debatable but the fact is, it's there. Add to this, the current situation with the heavyweight belt and the situation with the welterweight belt up until recently. This all comes together into a cluster-fuck picture where the UFC is grasping for any legitimacy it can get for its titles.

So to answer the question: yes this fight should go ahead and happen so that any unnecessary issues with a title can be avoided.

(the poster formerly known as holden636)

by TheFightJournal on Apr 30, 2008 6:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

Somehow I posted a blank comment...

Anyway: TFJ is right here: if BJ doesn't fight him, there will always be questions about the legitimacy. You could argue that somebody else should get first crack at BJ, but he needs to beat Sherk at some point. I would have rather seen BJ start cleaning house in the division a la A.Silva, but this is fine.

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

A) Positive steroid tests due to "unclean" supplements are actually not that uncommon. But that being said, it is the fighter's job to know what he is putting in his body, no one needs the amount of sups that Sherk claims he was taking before his positive test.

B) Sherk's wins over Karo have to cary some weight or you must also throw out Karo's 6 wins prior to the two losses. Yes, they were over general "nobodies" but once a fighter starts to fight those wins and losses count. Sure you can somewhat tag the wins with a "yes but" but I don't think it is really fair to completely write it off. Sherk did his job and won those fights.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 30, 2008 6:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Should Sherk Be Fighting B.J. Penn?

According to doctors, all those supplements are doing for him is giving him really expensive urine.

And come on! Look at the guy!

-- Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ

by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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