Two Views of Sean Sherk
by Kid Nate on Apr 29, 2008 12:17 AM EDT
in News
12 comments
I just had to brag on our informative and entertaining Bloody Elbow community -- check this exchange from the comments on yesterday's "Quote of the Day" post.
First FightJournal posts this comment about Sean Sherk's ability to finish fights:
And let's look at 2 of those 3 decisions - against Hermes Franca and Nick Diaz. Out of Hermes Franca's 6 losses, only 1 has NOT been by decision. That means that Hermes has only been finished once in his career of 24 fights. Nick Diaz has been finished 2 times in the 23 fights that comprise his career. One of those stoppages was in 2002 and the other was the controversial stoppage due to a cut in the KJ Noons fight. What I'm trying to point out is that both of these fighters are EXTREMELY hard to finish. The fact that Sherk beat them both via unanimous decisions shouldn't automatically brand him as "unable to finish fights."
Sherk's other decision win was against Florian. This fight, in my view, should not provide evidence either way because Sherk fought with essentially one arm (torn rotator). The evidence it does provide, however, is of the heart and dedication Sherk has. A point that does not seem to win him as many fans as it should.
Another important point that people should be aware of is that Sherk has finished Karo Parisyan in a previous fight. So, unlike Georges St. Pierre, Sherk was able to finish that fight.
Sorry for the long post but I think it's a point that needs to be made. Most MMA fans are so short-sighted that it's not surprising they would jump to the ill-informed conclusion that Sherk can't finish fights or that he can only win by lay-and-pray.
But no sooner do a few BE readers praise my man for the interesting comment, than jemaleddin jumps in:
GSP TKO'd him. Does Sean get credit for that not going to decision?
The next 8 fights are all wins are against: Joel Blanton, Lee King, Brodie Farber, Darin Brudigan, Gerald Strebendt, Eric Heinz, Jake Short, and Kaleo Padilla. A veritable "Who's that?" of MMA, in a veritable "What is that?" of promotions. Only 2 of those people are important enough for anybody to have created a Wikipedia entry for them. One of those is 7-12-1, and the entry erroneously points to a soccer player. The combined records for those 8 fighters? 70-60-2 almost uniformly against nobody you've ever heard of. Nice.
Against top fighters? He has a TKO win over Karo back in 2001. The rest of the big names are all decision wins and losses. I guess we could pretend that Benji Radach and Tiki Ghosn are big names... but let's not lie to ourselves.
So let's rephrase this so that "TheFightJournal" can agree with it: Sean is a boring fighter unless he's fighting scrubs. Better?
How's that for a pithy, productive debate? BloodyElbow has some smart and funny readers who know their MMA!
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Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
by RevolutionMMA on Apr 29, 2008 1:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
by godzillad on Apr 29, 2008 2:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
by Yasnian on Apr 29, 2008 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
If you want to play MMA math, BJ destroys Sherk. He's only faced one opponent that a fan might not have heard of, and he's beaten some of the top names in the game.
by jemaleddin on Apr 29, 2008 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
And since there are a lot of people who would make the argument that BJ belongs in the short list of best P4P fighters in the world (with A. Silva, GSP and Fedor), why would anyone care what Sherk did against those losers?
Another question for the gallery: what kind of drug testing policy was in effect for "You Think You're Tough"? Or 'Cage Fighting Xtreme 2"? Does anybody think Sherk wasn't on roids for those fights?
by jemaleddin on Apr 29, 2008 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
That being said I don't really put Sherk into the list of great finishers, nor do I put him with the guys who don't finish anyone. He has the skills to finish when he has an opening, but he isn't going to take many huge risks that force such an opening.
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 29, 2008 9:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
But since I'm all over the comments (nothing better to do), I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to be an ass about all of this - I just want the facts out there, and I think those facts contradict what TFJ was saying. He seems like a pretty informed guy and I have zero animosity! (I have really gotten a reputation on this site as a shit-starter, and I don't mean to!)
by jemaleddin on Apr 29, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
by Richard Wade on Apr 29, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
First, my previous comment was only to point out that Sherk has classified as a fighter with no finishing skills because he has fought one guys with one arm and two other fighters that are EXTREMELY hard to finish. That's all. I was not laying the framework for an argument that Sherk is the king of the universe. The fact that he beat a list of "Who's that?" does not diminish the fact that he possesses the skills to finish fights.
Second, I think your conclusion that Sherk can't finish "fights that matter" is a little to specific for the discussion. My previous comment was only referring to the reputation of Sherk not having the skills to finish fights. I don't know that you can easily jump to the conclusion that Sherk can't finish fights that matter because he didn't finish two title fights: one against Kenny Florian that was fought with one arm and the other against Hermes Franca (in reality, it would only be reasonable to count the Franca fight because of the handicapped method he has to fight Florian in). If he beats Penn by a decision, I'll be more than happy to agree with you.
Last, the reason you may seem like an asshole is because you are acting like one. I like the way you call me on my shit (and everyone else) and you know your stuff without a doubt. Readers like you are the reason that I like BE so much. I will sit here and debate back and forth with you in the comments all day and be happy to admit when I'm wrong. But there is no reason to act like an asshole and take a condescending tone.
Otherwise, keep 'em coming. Friends?
by TheFightJournal on Apr 29, 2008 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
We all know that there are different tiers of fighters, and most of Sherk's fights fall into the very top tiers and the very bottom. And with one exception (the still-green Karo), against anybody who could compete in the UFC, Sherk doesn't finish fights. Even within the UFC, guys like Kenny Florian haven't proven that they're at the level of a future hall-of-famer like BJ. Is he a game opponent? Sure. Am I excited at the idea of Kenny getting a title shot in the near future? Definitely. But has he fought at the level that BJ has? Not even close.
BJ's record is almost unique in the MMA world - he's fought one scrub. He doesn't have that many fights, but they're almost uniformly against top competition. In contrast, your comment was really deceptive: 9 finishes in a row certainly supports your contention, but you were leaving out that he lost one of those, and that those might as well have been bum-fights for the level of talent on the other side of the ring. That was disingenuous, dude. Right?
And I think I'm just not somebody who comes across as civil on the Internet. If I made these same points in a bar, you'd get when I was just fucking with you and when I was just being the pedant that I naturally am. It's all meant in good fun, I just can't seem to convey that. I say we keep this going and give the people a show. :-)
What do you say to a regular Point-Counterpoint format, Luke et al.? TFJ?
by jemaleddin on Apr 30, 2008 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
As far as BJ Penn goes - I agree with every word you said. I think BJ's nickname of "The Prodigy" is very fitting. His entire MMA career and record is sort of an anomaly.
And I completely know what you mean about the conveying humor over the inter-webs. No harm done. Like I said before, this is what makes this site so great - the readers are MMA-intelligence giants that make insightful debates like this possible. Could you imagine this on the Sherdog forums?
Point-Counterpoint sounds great to me.
by TheFightJournal on Apr 30, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Two Views of Sean Sherk
by jemaleddin on May 1, 2008 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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