Is Shinya Aoki the Best Lightweight in the World?
by Kid Nate on Dec 31, 2008 12:07 PM EST
258 comments
From a WAMMA press release:
"Dynamite!!" featured the crowning of the second-ever undisputed champion in World Alliance Mixed Martial Arts (WAMMA) history with Shinya Aoki defeating Eddie Alvarez via heel hook submission at 1:32 of round 1. In the process, Aoki became the first-ever WAMMA lightweight champion.
WAMMA would like to publicly congratulate Shinya Aoki on his historic victory and looks forward to presenting him with his championship belt at a ceremony to be scheduled at a later date.
"Dynamite!! was phenomenal event and quite possibly one of the best New Year’s Eve shows in Japan’s history," said WAMMA Chief Operating Officer Michael Lynch. "We’re also delighted to have a fighter the caliber of Shinya Aoki representing WAMMA as its lightweight champion. On behalf of WAMMA, we’d like to congratulate Mr. Aoki on his sensational victory."
WAMMA would also like to wish everyone a Happy New Year. The organization is already looking forward to a big 2009 with its recognized undisputed heavyweight champion Fedor Emelianenko scheduled to defend his WAMMA belt against Andrei Arlovski on January 24 in Anaheim, California during Affliction’s "Day of Reckoning."
Of course WAMMA's own rankings have had UFC Champ B.J. Penn at the #1position for months. It's time for WAMMA to admit they are issuing the best non-UFC title, not the best overall.
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The line
“It’s time for WAMMA to admit they are issuing the best non-UFC title, not the best overall.”
should be changed to “It’s time for WAMMA to just stop”
by Discman2 on Dec 31, 2008 12:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Is Shinya Aoki the best Lightweight in the world?
Nope, not even close…
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 12:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I disagree about it not even being close. Aoki has sick skills and can catch BJ in a sub. He has a huge reach advantage as well with his size.
But..we won’t get to see this match so it doesn’t matter. But he is def one of the few out there that would make a good match with BJ and not get run over.
by lbk on Dec 31, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does...
he get to have his magic pants and no penalties for glove and short holding?
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I stand by my initial statement...
Not… even… close….
I have seen past Aoki fights on DVD and on YouTube, BJ would pound this guy into mulch with his striking. BJ has a lot more intelligence on the ground than Eddie Alvarez does and BJ wouldn’t have gotten caught in a submission such as the one that Aoki beat Alvarez with.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s not forget that the competition is weaker elsewhere. Aoki and Alvarez may be beating 2nd tier competition, it doesn’t mean that they are up to BJ’s level. It’s not secret that Japanese fighters are getting demolished in the UFC. Being good in Japan has no correlation of being good with the best in the world. Just ask Gomi.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ignorant comment. UFC fighters were getting blown up when they fought in Japan as well, not too long ago. Proves nothing. Aoki can beat anyone at anytime. He is a dangerous fighter no matter what anyone says.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but is he the best in the world? WAMMA says he is.
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is one of the best in the world. The Affliction champion would be as well, etc. Everyone says their organization champion is the “best in the world”. The UFC thinks its HW Champion is the “Best in the world”. Is it true? No. Belts are promotial pieces, like trophies.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, belts are promo tools, but we as fans are allowed to opinions. Mine is that BJ is the best LW in the world. Aoki is on the same level as JZ. I think Hellboy and Eddie are very close as well. BJ however would beat all of them. Sure anyone could win at any time, but BJ would be a pretty heavy favorite. Have you seen ROTR v Gomi?
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
belts are promotional pieces. The WAMMA title however is one based on a claim of overwhelming legitimacy…not a simple “promotional tool”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, we wouldn’t be having this discussion if Aoki had won the Dream belt (or any promotional belt for that matter) it’s the fact that WAMMA claims their title crowns the best across all promotions.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, except those promotions that don’t want to work with them.
Just technicalities in my opinion. Every org claims they have the BEST fighters, etc.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WAMMA isn’t an org it’s a wannabe sanctioning body and their claim (their whole reason for existing) is to crown overall champions beyond the org champions.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know, but it is all the same. If you hand out a belt, you claim your fighter is the “champion of the world”, etc. Do people think Lesnar is the best HW in the world, because that is wha the UFC belt supposedly stands for according to them?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's different..
and you’re missing the point.
They claim that they do not play promotional politics and that they represent the “one true champion without promotional restrictions” while…placing a promotional restriction on it.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but everyone over the age of 12(and even under 12 pro wrestling fans) knows that saying World Champion doesn’t actually mean world champion it means organizational champion. That’s why it’s the UFC World Champion or the Dream World Champion but WAMMA is claiming that their belt represents the undisputed unified world champion beyond the organizational belts that is a huge difference and that is why people roll their eyes at their claim.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its a natural reaction now...
I roll my eyes everytime I ever hear WAMMA now…
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I am not defending WAMMA at all, so don’t get me wrong, I just don’t care enough about WAMMA to really bother me. If they fail, they will slowly fade away.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is a article and a comment thread about WAMMA
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I got caught up in the Aoki would get destroyed by Penn comments.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He would get destroyed by Penn. He doesn’t have a BJJ advantage on Penn and Penn’s striking is worlds apart from Aoki.
Still, I really like Aoki and that fight is definitely one of my dream matches!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki has shown a much more dangerous sub game in MMA than Penn. Sure, Penn has a huge striking advantage, as have all of Aoki’s opponents.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No he doesn’t. The fact that he’s one-dimensional and favors the ground game means he has the propensity to sub people over KO’ing them. A well rounded fighter like Penn would not need to submit people.
Aoki doesn’t destroy people when he wins. Penn does.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he has, because that is what he relies on. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it is what makes me a fan of his. Yes just about everyone that faces Aoki has better striking than him, but I would guess none of them have the BJJ that BJ does to go along with it.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Aoki has shown a much more dangerous sub game than Penn (who’s BJJ credentials are about as good as you can get). Has Aoki ever faced anyone who has as strong a background in BJJ as BJ Penn?
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess JZ is the closest, but I don’t know a lot of Aoki’s early opponents. And I wouldn’t put JZ near Penn’s level, though he is also a fighter I like.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know a lot about Aoki’s earlier opponents either, that’s why I was asking(anyone else know?). Aoki subs a lot of people but that doesn’t neccessarily mean that Penn would get caught like those guys did, their sub games might just cancel each other out.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
And we have seen what that leads to. Usually BJ putting a beating on someone.
Damn though! Wouldn’t be great to be able to see all of these amazing LWs get it on?!?!? by far the best division in mma, imo.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would definitely be a must see fight.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Give me a break. Penn has subbed Pulver and Stevenson recently. Aoki has shown a far more dangerous sub game.
This question isn’t whether Aoki would sub Penn if they fought, it’s who is the better sub artist right now. That’s Aoki, clearly. Penn may TKO Aoki because he’s a far better striker.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki has shown a far more dangerous sub game.
True, but just because BJ hasn’t shown it lately, does not mean he doesn’t have it.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No the question is whether Aoki would sub Penn because that is pretty much the only way he wins fights. Subbing more guys doesn’t mean your sub game is more dangerous, particularly if the guys you subbed aren’t close to your level.
Tim Sylvia has 16 knockouts in his 24 wins, Fedor only has 6 KO’s in 29 fights. Does that mean Sylvia has more dangerous stand up than Fedor?
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please name the fighters that were “blown” up in Japan (the place where people look superhuman).
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I did. Please read my fan posts on why what happened in Pride has less relations to what happened today. Would you also cling to the belief that Nogueir and Mark Hunt are un-KO’able? Leave dead dogs lie.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
While this kind of got sidetracked, I want to say that Aoki deserves a lot of respect. Congrats to him for getting KO’d by Hansen, then coming in against another devastating striker in Alvarez and taking him out.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think any of this should reflect poorly on Aoki or his accomplishment at all because what he did last night was a huge deal. Heck if it wasn’t for WAMMA sticking their nose in this whole thread probably wouldn’t exist.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. I am a huge BJ fan, but I also like Aoki, JZ, Alvarez, Hansen, etc… I just can’t stand the notion that if you think BJ would dominate Aoki 9/10 times, then you must be a Aoki hater, simply not the case.
Thanks WAMMA for making me waste another afternoon on the net, lol!!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way you can be an undisputed lightweight champ and not beat BJ. I like the idea of WAMMA but it just isn’t legit unless the UFC is willing to have joint promotions with competing organizations.
by donkeypunch on Dec 31, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They did pretty much admit it in the interview that someone posted in a fanpost.
Next time someone talks to them, I’d like to find out why they can give Aoki the belt at a later date but they can’t do that for Rashad.
by Phildo on Dec 31, 2008 12:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I've asked that...
and the basis of their answer is that the UFC would punish its fighters for some reason for an independent organization saying they are the best in the world.
They also do go as far as to admit that there is no benefit for them without the belt being shown on TV. Plus if they can’t be involved in the promotion of the title fight they get no money for the fight. So basically they’re thinking like a moneymaking business while talking like an independent organization dedicated to rewarding the best fighters on the planet.
In short…they’re full of crap
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I know that’s what they said before, but now (as usual with WAMMA) there is a different set of rules for non-Zuffa fighters.
They had nothing to do with Dynamite. WAMMA wasn’t on the mat, they weren’t there to present him the belt. I don’t know Japanese, but did they even mention WAMMA during the show?
You’ve done a great job of calling them on their bullshit, but it needs to be done every time someone interviews them.
Why are there separate rules for Zuffa and non-Zuffa fighters?
by Phildo on Dec 31, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
that a part of it is how desperately they are trying to put themselves out there. Dana White would talk shit about them in press conferences if the belt were “contested” on a UFC show. Dynamite may not have mentioned them…but that’s better than having your organization trashed by the company controlling the fights.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, they want to stay relevant and the only way to do that is to “sponsor” fights. This fight might not make for a legitimate “undisputed” LW champion in anyone’s eyes, but other than a fight involving Fedor, what would be their next best option for getting their name out there? Lawler versus his next opponent (who will be unranked unless Lawler ends up in the UFC)? Also, if Barnett loses or Affliction folds, it may be years before Fedor fights another legitimate opponent. He fought Cro Cop on 8/28/05, he fought Sylvia on 7/19/08.
by Jahbulon on Dec 31, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you look at pure well-rounded skill, BJ Penn is the #1 lightweight in the world, but Shinya’s grappling is unsurpassed much like Penn’s striking is unsurpassed in the weight class. I’m much more inclined to believe BJ can hang with Aoki on the ground though.
Aoki’s standup is shameful, but he is making strides to improve since he did make a move to train at Fairtex in Thailand.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Dec 31, 2008 12:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How can you tell about Aoki’s standup? I’ve never seen him use it! Hell, he actively avoids using his fists even when he is in the perfect position to do end a fight with some GnP.
by toxic on Dec 31, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He tried a bit against JZ in their first encounter, and it was terrible. I literally thought JZ might stop, put his hands on his knees, and keel over laughing. Aoki training at Fairtex is a godsend for him, so we’ll actually see some standup improvement.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Jan 2, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is going to backfire on WAMMA. If Penn is your champion, at least you know that if he loses, he’ll lose to the very best. Aoki on the other hand often fights scrubs and borderline top 10 opponents. If Aoki drops a fight to someone like Uno will WAMMA declare that person the “undisputed” champion?
by Jahbulon on Dec 31, 2008 12:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They have to...
if you beat the champion you become the champion. That’s how it works in their model. They have said as much.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And just think if it were Uno that beat Aoki, there’s no doubt in my mind WAMMA would start playing up the draw between Uno and Penn.
WAMMA is just that annoying kid in your class that keeps talking and doesnt say anything important and just wont go away..
by SamCupitt on Dec 31, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Although Penn would likely be favored to beat any LW in the world, Aoki has beaten more top LWs in Japan recently (and beat guys who beat other top LWs) than Penn has.
Aoki emerged from a pool of fighters like Alvarez, Hansen, Kawajiri, Ishida, Uno, etc. It’s more impressive than beating Stevenson and Sherk.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 12:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not if you have Sherk absolutely dominating all of the guys you mentioned.
Which I do.
by subo on Dec 31, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Sherk would beat JZ or Alvarez and at this point not too sure about Hansen either. So…
To argue that Aoki hasn’t beaten more quality opponents than BJ has in the past few years would be ridiculous. Aoki has beaten some of the best fighters at that weight and he does it fighting more fights than BJ.
by lbk on Dec 31, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pure conjecture at this point. Sherk has a couple good LW wins (Florian, Griffin). Right now, Aoki’s emergence from the LW pool mentioned is much more impressive.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Impressive yes...
but he still doesn’t beat BJ Penn.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it’s just your opinion, and it’s not based on Penn’s resume vs. Aoki’s.
I believe Penn would be favored to win, and likely would, but Aoki has the better LW resume right now, easily.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thankfully...
Either fighter’s resume just fuels heresay discussions such as this…
They ever meet in the cage/ring… BJ Penn takes this fight.
I’m not arguing Aoki’s resume, I’m arguing his ability to beat BJ Penn and I’m saying flat out, he can’t do it.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki can beat anyone at anytime.
He is a tricky fighter and knows how to avoid the big blows.
Once he has a hold of you, he won’t let go.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any fighter can beat any other fighter at any time, that is why they actually have the fights and why rankings aren’t as important as they are made out to be. Yea squash matches are squash matches but especially when you get into top guys anyone can win at any time.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, which is what the Aoki haters should be saying instead of (pants, holding, cheating, etc).
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even one-dimensional fighters win fights.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So are Hughes, Chuck, Shields, Sherk, Maia, and many others who have had great success (champions) without being well rounded.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone of them #1 right now? You’re arguing who’s #1 at lightweight not who’s good. I never said Aoki is a chump. He’s just not even top 5 in my opinion.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why does it matter if it is right now. It was not too long ago that Hughes and Chuck were undisputed #1s. Sherk and Tim Sylvia were UFC champs and they are pretty one dimensional.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re comparing the modern game with MMA back in the days. Back in the days, JJ rule all, then wrestling, then striking. Now, the game has evolved.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The fight game has really changed in the last couple of years as has been shown by all those excellent fighters that lack multiple dimensions to their game getting beat.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which I agree that the Japanese fighters need to do that now. They need to evolve. Same with fighters from Brazil. Not too long ago, BJJ fighters had NO standup, but, things are chaning now. AOki training his standup in Thailand is where he starts his evolution in becoming a better overall fighter.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you basically admit he’s not well rounded yet. Wouldn’t you say he’s not fully the fighter he could be? Ergo, Penn would be the better fighter right now?
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ofcourse hes not. No one would claim he is, but being well rounded is not a criteria for anything.
Just because Penn is more well rounded does not mean he would win though.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t know who would win, that’s why they have the fights but the thread is about a WAMMA title and WAMMA’s own rankings say that BJ Penn is better. I’m sure that the betting odds would also lean towards Penn too.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Opinions. Yup, everyone has them.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Aoki can potentially beat anyone, so can Penn, heck if Alvarez had landing one great shot he could of knocked Aoki out last night, ratings don’t tell you who would win if two guys fought but the pants and the glove holding wouldn’t be allowed under the unified rules and that is a important point when talking about WAMMA’s goal of being a sanctioning body.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve said he would be favored, and that I’d favor him. Thanks for continuing to post and agree with me.
To speak in universal terms in MMA is foolish, however. Aoki could win.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
which is where your utter noobishness shows up
JZ would leave Sherk shaking and unconscious
by skwirrl on Dec 31, 2008 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because the lightweight division is split between two pools of fighters, lightweight rankings are a self-fulfilling prophecy.
by Jahbulon on Dec 31, 2008 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Beating Sean Sherk is much more impressive than getting the shit pounded out of you by Joachim Hansen.
by Carl P on Dec 31, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about beating JZ (Did you see the shots he was able to withstand in that fight?) and subbing alvarez in the 1st?
BJ hasn’t beaten any 2 opponents this last year more impressive than Aokis wins.
by lbk on Dec 31, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was after Aoki already fought that night, dominating Uno on the mat.
Penn always has a litany of excuses. Facing 2 guys in the same night is more legit than any of Penn’s excuses for losses.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, but Sherk, Florian, and now Diego would snap any of the Japanese in two. See Koscheck VS Yoshida.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Last time I checked, those weren’t LWs, so don’t generalize.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sherk, Florian and now Diego are lightweights.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to Kos and Yoshida proving that Japanese fighters would be “snapped” by UFC fighters.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t claim they’re lightweights. I said look at the results of Japanese fighters fighting in the UFC. Who has consistently won other than Okami?
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you have to make an exception, then you already proved yourself wrong.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exceptions prove the rule? Come on, dude.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is some pretty sketchy logic there. If the percentages drastically lean in that direction then it is a valid point that one guy winning isn’t going to change.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Koscheck was a consensus Top 5 WW.
Yoshida was not near the Top 10 in any rankings.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
20/20 hindsight
It was a pick’em fight. Half the experts picked Yoshida to win. Why? Because the illusion of competitiveness from Japanese fighters because of the 2nd tier opponents he defeated. Case in point with Aoki.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Their respective rankings is not hindsight. It’s an easily researched fact. You may want to look up what hindsight means.
Koscheck was the clear betting favorite. It was far from a pick em fight.
Aoki has fought much better LW competition than Penn, FWIW.
by Hardcharger on Dec 31, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I’m saying is that you’re using the ranking now to justify your position back then. Yoshida was considered quite close to top ten if not top ten in some people’s rankings. I’ll give you that Koscheck was the favorite, but most people thought it would have been a competitive fight. Had Yoshida beaten Koscheck, he would definitely be ranked #3 or #4 while Koscheck would have been ranked below him. It’s quite easy to say Yoshida is a nobody now after the fact that he got brutally KO’ed by Koscheck.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO omg dude
Yoshida is unranked and in his second major fight
by skwirrl on Dec 31, 2008 7:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yoshida was Meta-ranked at #16. He had a very major win over Akira Kikuchi — a fighter with a win over Jake Shields.
by Kid Nate on Dec 31, 2008 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hansen whooped his ass.
Wtf are you talking about?
by dualdiagnosis on Dec 31, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These guys again...
Now, I love Aoki (even more for derailing the Alvarez hype train), but this is a club belt. Nothing more, nothing less. And while ‘Best Non-UFC ____ In The World’ beats the hell out of ‘Elite XC ________ Champion’ or some other equivalent… it’s just not doing it for me.
I know that Japanese athletes have deep ties and pride in their homeland that cannot be duplicated in competition here, and I respect that. Still, I druel at the prospect of Aoki following Ishii’s lead and at least entertaining the notion of coming stateside.
Oh, and fuck WAMMA.
by subo on Dec 31, 2008 12:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aoki wouldn’t succeed in the UFC. His rainbow tights, which give him quite a bit more traction, aren’t allowed. Also, he’d get points deducted for grabbing gloves. This just makes me want to see him in the UFC even more…
by Carl P on Dec 31, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed...
I don’t see this guy beating Kenny Florian or Diego Sanchez…. he could contend with the others in the division, but he doesn’t beat Florian, Sanchez, or Penn.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like how everyone wants Aoki to fight in the UFC.
What if Penn fought Aoki in DREAM, then what? Who is to say that Aoki HAS to fight in the UFC Octagon. Would your opinion change if he fought in the DREAM ring?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aoki is a one dimensional fighter with no chin. Penn is a world class striker and JJ specialist with a world class chin. Has there ever been a #1 fighter who’s one dimensional? Think about it.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Aoki has a HELL of a chin.
And yes, there has been PLENTY of #1s that are 1 dimensional.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Modern MMA not 5-10 years ago. Everyone knows MMA evolved from one dimensional arts.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it is getting there, but these fighters need to evolve. It was not too long ago that we were saying that Florian and Evans have HORRIBLE standup.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yea in 2006 when Evans was just starting out people talked about his stand up game, I don’t remember people complaining about Kenny Florian’s stand up game (well beyond the cutting elbows).
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny had no stand up other than elbows only about 1 1/2 years ago.
Then Rogan starting kissing Florians standup as he got better.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s pointless. He argues on the one hand that Aoki is an incomplete and one-dimensional fighter who has much to improve, while on the other hand he argues that Aoki is a better fighter than BJ Penn at this time.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL! I never said that.
I am disagreeing with those that are saying 100% Penn would destroy Aoki. I disagree. I believe Aoki has a good chance of beating anyone at anytime (even though he is not as well rounded as other fighters).
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no such thing as 100% guaranteed anything. Anyone has a chance of beating anyone in MMA. Nevertheless, do you agree that BJ Penn has the better chance of winning, and thus should be ranked #1?
If yes, we both agree.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was one person in one spot in the thread. Penn is the better and more rounded fighter, heck BJ Penn is on most people’s top pound for pound list. Sure Aoki might catch him in a fight but this is a thread about WAMMA saying Aoki is the best when their own rankings say Penn is number one.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The fact is this...
Aoki isn’t the best lightweight NOW.
Does he have the potential if he expands his game… absolutely but that one dimension isn’t going to lay claim to the best lightweight in the world as long as BJ Penn fights in the Lightweight division.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok seriously...
I don’t know what your malfunction is but the UFC is the best MMA organization in the world, the best fighters strive to be apart of this organization. The best lightweights, at least the majority, fight under the Zuffa banner whether it be the UFC or WEC.
Yes, Dream..Sengoku… World Victory Road have a few good lightweights but the majority is in the UFC. If given the opportunity and if the right deal is extended to them, any of these fighters would fight in the UFC if they want to face the best.
If you argue that the UFC isn’t the best of all the MMA products out there, then in my opinion you are just trolling for arguments. DREAM, K-1, Sengoku, WVR… all good products that produce quality fights and fighters but they are not the best.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to all rankings Affliction, WVR, and DREAM have the best HWs and LWs.
So, NO, Zuffa does not have all the best fighters.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um...
no. According to MOST rankings DREAM does not have the BEST LW.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
I was referring to the ranked fighters. DREAM has more ranked LWs than the UFC. That is a fact. and Affliction has more top ranked HWs than the UFC. That is also a fact.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
DREAM and Affliction laying claim to having the best fighters when their top fighters are fighting guys that couldn’t hack it in the UFC?
I will admit that Aoki has fought quality opponents, what I’ve been saying the whole time is that simply he doesn’t beat BJ Penn.
Affliction has the better HW? That made me laugh. Fedor hasn’t fought anyone worth mentioning in over two years.. (please don’t bring up Timmay either) By this time next year, all of Afflictions HW’s will either be out of the top ten or in the UFC. Granted that Afflction sees the light of day after Day of Reckoning. The up and comers of the UFC HW division will boot those guys out of the top ten.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sylvia is a legit heavyweight. I know we’d all like to pretend he isn’t but that just isn’t the case.
Regardless:
Heavyweight – The UFC has 5 of the top 10 fighters in the November Meta-Rankings. Arlovski, Sylvia and Werdum were all let go from the UFC (or not re-signed which is the same thing basically) so that is 8 of the top 10 that recently fought in the UFC
Lightweight – Yes, the UFC only has 3 of the top 10.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 3:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Carwin, Velasquez, or Dos Santos
I guarantee one of those three will be replacing Tim Sylvia real soon if they haven’t already.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No they havent. These guys are just starting out their MMA careers.
They have a long way to go still. They are lucky if they can beat Kongo or Gonzaga, which I think they can’t at the moment.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Up until a couple of days ago Sherdog had Dos Santos listed as number 10 (he slid off the list because of the Frank Mir win).
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only reason why is because he beat Werdum, who is not in the UFC anymore, so that is actually a loss for the UFC in terms of HW rankings. Actually, Santos could be Houston Alexander for all we know since one win by KO doesn’t prove much in the future. See Houston and Soko as axamples.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Werdum isn’t on Sherdog’s top ten rankings and it was Mir coming on that pushed Dos Santos off.
While I agree that Dos Santos might be a flash in the pan the point is that he has already hit a top ten ranking. Sherdog already has Tim Sylvia sunk down to 8, WAMMA has him at 6 and dropping, it’s not that far of a stretch to say that one of those three guys will be taking his place in the top ten in the near future.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So is Wandy. Doesn’t mean its a for sure thing it will be used in their MMA fighting.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Houston looks like a turtle on his back. A BJJ BB will not be so inadequit.
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a difference in not using and not having.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
He is a purple belt.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Still advanced, but I was told black? what is your source?
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The UFC when he beat Werdum. I will see what else I can find…
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.ufc.com/JuniorDosSantos
Training since 05. Started BJJ then boxing
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hard to find much background on him prior to the Werdum fight.
I think he got his purple belt in the UK from a Carlson Gracie school, but could be wrong.
I think it also may be possible that his father was a player on the Brazilian soccer team back in the day, but again, may be wrong.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know, BJJDenver was right. Just wanted to give him the link.
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, here you go...
UFC.com:
If any, list ranks in any martial arts styles: Purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu
5oz-
Junior Dos Santos trains with one of the most impressive camps in the business. Fighting out of a team that top fighters like Anderson Silva, The Nogueira brothers, Paulo Filho and Rafael Feijao call home, Junior Dos Santos’ resources to learn from are endless. Dos Santos is known as a dangerous striker coming into the fight with Werdum sporting a 7-1 record with five of those wins coming by knockout. A relative newcomer in the fight game, Dos Santos began his journey into mixed martial arts just two years ago and got his start with Jiu-Jitsu just one year prior to that. Self admittedly, Dos Santos ground game is a little sketchy at this point early on in his career and his main focus in the fight is to stand and deliver but grappling with the Nogueira’s and company is sure to change that in no time.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I find that ref to his ground game being weak strange. He started Boxing and BJJ around the same time. Looks like he needs to split time better.
by szucconi on Dec 31, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think much of that talk comes from him, then media kind of runs with it.
Really, if you have good striking like him, you probably can get by to a certain point with basics and defense.
I fully expect him to evolve quickly with Blackhouse, but I need to see more of him before making him a top 10.
Damn these narrow boxes, lol!!!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1 more thing...
The knock I had heard about him from the past, was his conditioning and physical fitness, though I believe he has conquered that.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Believe me..
by mid 2009, all three are in the top ten. Even if they are not… it will be someone else in the UFC.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dos Santos?? Dude was brought in to be slaughtered by Werdum and caught him with a lucky punch. Whats with all of the hype on dos Santos now? Guarantee he won’t be around in 5 years.
by lbk on Dec 31, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dos Santos is a very talented fighter who trains with an amazing camp, don’t count the guy out just because no one had heard of him before that fight.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That could be said about any fighter...
Take a look at the sport… any fighter could be done in an instant.
Who says that Dos Santos was brought in to be “slaughtered” to Werdum? I’d love to see proof of that, just sounds like your personal opinion.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would think Werdum was set up...
I think Joe Silva and Dana White saw something in Dos Santos so that they could legitimately have cause for letting Werdum go…. Werdum getting “slaughtered” by a supposed can.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dana seems to have a good relationship with Nog and Anderson Silva perhaps he knew a lot more than we do about Dos Santos. It’s so rare that the UFC gives anyone a can fight which makes me wonder if this was a trap fight for Werdum too.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not too good w/ conspiracy theories, but I definitely think Werdum was set up to fail on this.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Set up to fail? No. Set up to see if he wouldn’t take this fight seriously? Yes.
A top ten fighter griping about deserving a title shot better beat everyone they put in front of him.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You make a better point… he definitely didn’t look like he took Dos Santos seriously at all and anyone in the top ten who should be “deserving” of a title shot better beat all opposition.
by Gunslinger20 on Jan 1, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to state anything as a fact when there are so many different rankings out there. By WAMMA’s own rankings the UFC has more top ten heavyweights than Affliction does.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but all the higher ranked HW fighters are in Affliction, specially if they come to terms with Werdum, which I think they will.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All let go by the UFC
Only Fedor…
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let go? You mean couldn’t agree on terms of a contract.
Arlovski and Werdum weren’t let go.
They just didn’t want to pay them the money they wanted or they wanted to do things like Box that the UFC does not allow them to do.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If they were worth the money
The UFC would have paid them for it….
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Barnett, Arlovski, Werdum, and Sylvia were NOT LET GO by the UFC because they were stinking up the joint. Actually, add Fedor to that list and they are currently the best HW’s in the world.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm.. lets see
Barnett let go because of steroids.
Arlovski wanted too much money.
Werdum wasn’t worth the money they were paying him.
Sylvia, Dana has said that he let Sylvia go cuz he was stinking up the joint.
Fedor is the one man who has shown that he doesn’t need the UFC…. but he’ beaten all the best outside of the UFC so there is nothing left.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since when is being one of the UFC’s most dominant HW’s in their history stinking up the joint?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Getting dominated...
by Randy Couture and Big Nog.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As far as fans watching the fights were concerned Tim Sylvia was stinking up the joint. People really don’t like the guy, of course he has also lost three of his last 4 fights.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
watching fights != a fighters success.
No shame in losing to Fedor and Nog.
That was also one of Randy’s best performances, and perhaps one of his last.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dana said Sylvia was stinking the joint up, and he was, people boo’d him regularly if they weren’t just ignoring him and not buying his PPVs. Tim Sylvia was stinking the place up, even when he was winning it had been him out-pointing guys in boring fights.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Monson
That fight was just sad… thats where I lost respect in Tim’s abilities.
He just seems lethargic lately, literally like he just doesn’t care. Fedor is the same way but he at least beats the snot out of his opponents.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Sylvia was “allowed to leave”, for all practical purposes Werdum was dropped like a rock but yes the UFC wanted to keep Arlovski but Affliction offered him silly level money.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of the WAMMA top ten 5 are UFC and 4 or Affliction, even if they signed Werdum it would just be even. (it would be noted that rankings vary wildly from site to site, I am using the WAMMA rankings only because this is a WAMMA article).
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but the top ranked fighter and the best HW in the world are not in the UFC. Nogs recent loss hurts them even more, although Fedor had beat him to a pulp already, anyways.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's after Arlovski?
I’d love to hear who…
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Rothwell who is ranked in the top 10 some rankings.
Fedor
Barnett
Arlovski
Werdum (if they get him)
Rothwell
Nelson
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol...
You honestly think Ben Rothwell and Roy Nelson are Top 10 quality?
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rothwell was ranked in top 10 not too long ago.
I am not the one doing the rankings.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yet you mention him...
Throw Rothwell and Big Country Fried Man Titties in w/ Carwin and Velasquez…. their fat asses would be out cold…
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They have a LOT more experience, so that is a tough one. They are better then they competition they have faced, thats for sure.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe so, I'll give you that...
but youth and actually being in shape will take that fight.
Experience is the only thing Rothwell and Nelson have…. if this was a pie eating contest, then I’d give them the edge in that.
The closest Roy Nelson got to beating Andrei Arlovski was when in he was in side control and Arlovski almost choked to death on Nelson’s big ol lactating man hoo ha.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rothwell and Nelson on the top ten is the biggest sham this side of the Atlantic.
Sylvia couldn’t even put away Vera with a broken hand. The rankings are biased.
by cyph on Dec 31, 2008 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot Sylvia in there. He is in the middle.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If this is an arguement that the UFC doesn’t have Fedor then yep you are correct, if this is an argument that that means that Affliction has more top heavyweights then it is irrelevant because he is just one guy.
and Affliction has more top ranked HWs than the UFC. That is also a fact.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arlovski
He is the last legitimate opponent left for Fedor…. there is no one else after him. Fedor squashes Josh Barnett and Barnett is vastly becoming overrated.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha…Barnett is actually still the most legit opponent for Fedor.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha ha ha?
So from BJ Penn vs Shinya Aoki, you’re going to go to Fedor vs Josh Barnett?
Fedor takes care of Barnett just as easily as he did Sylvia.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So your original point was UFC doesnt have the MOST ranked fighters in LW and HW…
Now we see it was proved wrong in HW so your point changed to well affliction has the higher ranked HW….
Please stop contradicting yourself.
by mmalogic on Dec 31, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please. If you re-read my statement, it said that DREAM has the most and Affliction has the higher ranked.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and Affliction has more top ranked HWs than the UFC. That is also a fact.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you should re-read your own statement.
by mmalogic on Dec 31, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PS, my original post was proving that the UFC does not have all the the best fighters in the world.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only 1 fighter...
There is only one fighter in the world outside of the UFC that I can’t think of someone in the UFC can beat him… thats Fedor.
All the others, name a fighter and I could tell you someone who would beat them and why…
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL! Well, I cant think of one UFC HW who wouldn’t get dominated by Barnett, Arlovski, Fedor, etc.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
other than Fedor…
Barnett doesn’t last two rounds w/ Brock Lesnar. Lesnar’s quickness and wrestling, not to mention those cinder blocks he calls his fists would knock Barnett silly.
Arlovski… I won’t say Lesnar again… but I don’t Andrei Arlovski could beat Randy Couture. Randy’s wrestling ability and endurance would take Arlovski.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Randy is over the hill bro and Barnett loves to fight people who are wrestlers and not pure strikers.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can come up with a few more...
but I’m not going to take up any more space, this discussion with you has gotten ridiculous and has no end to it.
To quote Cyph from way up at the beginning of this thread, I give up.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s just opinions really. We will see how things unfold shortly.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed..
We’ll leave it at that.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL! Well, I cant think of one UFC HW who wouldn’t get dominated by Barnett, Arlovski, Fedor, etc.
You should try a little harder than this. If you’re a troll, good job. If you’re actively trying to argue your point, this is a massive fail.
by Michaelthebox on Dec 31, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, don’t have time to argue point by point.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Dec 31, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then why do you keep filling up the board with arguments nobody agrees with?
by Michaelthebox on Dec 31, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because most people on this board
Are TUF noobs. Thats why you don’t agree. Logic doesn’t work on you all either. No point in arguing point by point.
by skwirrl on Dec 31, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Be nice...
just because someone doesn’t agree with you doesn’t make them a TUF noob. And actually we’d all prefer to keep from using the “I’m a better fan than you because I’ve been around longer” kind of reasoning when trying to prove a point.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd much...
prefer to see them fight in the states…cage or ring. Where at least there is some type of sanctioning.
I’m not anti-japanese MMA by any stretch. I just think if you’re talking a fight between the top 2 fighters in a weight class I’d like to see it regulated.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completly. I love the Japanese fights but there is that nagging sense that you can’t always trust the results.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He subs florian in under a minute
easily
by skwirrl on Dec 31, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
....no
There is as close to no chance of that happening as can exist in MMA.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe
theyre saying it because Penns moving up a weightclass
im not impressed with your performance
by troy145 on Dec 31, 2008 1:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
They have said that
but until Penn either drops the Lightweight belt or loses it…. he’s still the number 1 lightweight in the world.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh, this all comes down to if you love Japan fighting lightweights or UFC light weights.
People should just start splitting the rankings up… UFC rankings and non-ufc rankings. Hell not only is the competition completely different… but the fucking rules are also. Those pants and grabbing gloves? wtf is that shit. Take this shit away from a grappler with no stand up at all and he would get his ass handed to him by half the UFC light weight division.
by dbcb on Dec 31, 2008 1:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I WOULD
Say yes to this, but considering Shinya Aoki lost to Joachim Hansen, makes BJ Penn the best lightweight in the world.
I mean this is very close, Shinya just came off a victory over a possible top 4 lightweight in the world in Eddie in 1 minute.
But, I dont know if you will ever be able to call somebody best in the world, unless a fight happens between the top 2.
by "Mr. NC-17" on Dec 31, 2008 1:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I must have missed it.
“Dynamite!!” featured the crowning of the second-ever undisputed champion in World Alliance Mixed Martial Arts (WAMMA) history with Shinya Aoki defeating Eddie Alvarez via heel hook submission at 1:32 of round 1.
Did I miss something? It says the show featured the crowning of a WAMMA champion.
I watched it and I didn’t see it. Did they cut it out?
Is WAMMA telling the truth here? I didn’t see no one there crown Aoki a WAMMA Champion. That sounds like a lie to me.
What exactly is it WAMMA did step by step for the Aoki vs. Alvarez fight? Does anyone know the answer to that? What exactly is it they did to sanction that fight? I mean with the high standards WAMMA has before they will sanction a fight they must have been heavily involved behind the scenes in making that fight right? Surely they would have had to done more than just watch the fight to be able to say they sanctioned that as a WAMMA title fight right?
What exactly is it WAMMA did to sanction that fight as a WAMMA title fight?
by mattman73 on Dec 31, 2008 1:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nope WAMMA didn’t even show up at the event.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
they “sanctioned it” but it doesn’t seem that the promotion wanted the belt put on TV.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What exactly is it they do when they “Sanction” a fight though?
What is it they actually do step by step when they sanction a fight?
by mattman73 on Dec 31, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really...
it just means they determine if the fight is worthy of being a title fight. Then they say “we’re declaring this a title fight” honest to god that’s really all there is to it.
What they IDEALLY (for them) do is what they did with the Fedor/Sylvia fight. Which is to do the above but also have their name all over everything and get sponsors FOR the title fight which is where they make their money.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 31, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey guess what people, when the UFC decides to cross promote, then you can get a unified champion, until then…you have WAMMA, UFC, and everyone else. Deal with it and smile.
Relax, take a breath…
Wags
by DocWagner on Dec 31, 2008 1:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The UFC isn’t going to cross promote until there is something in it for them and right now no one else (especially WAMMA) has anything to offer them that would make it worth the trouble. That’s why WAMMA is doomed to fail.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
DocWagner can you explain why is it on the UFC to do what WAMMA wants them to do?
by mattman73 on Dec 31, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And what if SAMMA comes along, the Supreme Alliance of Mixed Martials Arts? Does everyone have to work together just because you exist?
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Dec 31, 2008 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Im starting my own belt.
im not impressed with your performance
by troy145 on Dec 31, 2008 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Imagine for a second if Zuffa had a title fight without drug testing…
All the blogs would be up and arms… Josh gross would be writing ten open letters, so on and so forth…
This is why I say MMA blogs are nothing more than fan boys with ten bucks.
by mmalogic on Dec 31, 2008 3:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
so does anyone have the feeling that the wamma belt might soon go to an unranked fighter in japan?
..with all the mismatches theyre having there, a guy could get lucky and suddely become WAMMA champ haha.
http://weoweoweo.deviantart.com/
by Anton Tabuena on Dec 31, 2008 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Aoki will ever take the time to go pick the darn thing up.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm wondering if Aoki can even keep the belt up...
He can definitely fight… but holy crap is he a scrawny lookin guy. I don’t see the belt staying around his waist.
by Gunslinger20 on Dec 31, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i like the pic of aoki.
it makes me think, “wow, that little pussy can kick my ass in under 30 seconds.”
i would say i think BJ is better, but everyone acting like they arent in the same league is crazy. did you guys not watch UFC this weekend? 4oz gloves put a lot of people in the same league.
something else to throw out there is: rubber guard. i just started learning it and it’s almost it’s own martial art. call it BJJ 2…but it’s definitely the next evolution in the sport. Aoki seems to be the best at it in MMA right now.
by Headkick on Dec 31, 2008 3:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, APPARANTLY.
dont worry bjjdenver, i know you’re not responsible for the mispelling and it is a funny poster. long day at work i guess
this kinda makes me want to rant about how ‘to’ and ‘too’ mean different things.
by Headkick on Dec 31, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
I didn’t even see that, I must have been distracted by something…..
Appearantly, freakin’ awesome!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get Over It . . .
I think people on this board care more about the WAMMA LW title than BJ Penn does his own UFC LW Title. If you haven’t noticed, Penn seems more enamored with the WW belt.
If you don’t like WAMMA title than just ignore it. It’s a stronger statement to ignore the legitimacy of the title all together than cry how it’s not around the waist of your favorite fighter..
Sadly, the same people killing WAMMA for having Aoki jump Penn without beating him are the same people who make the argument for Brock Lesnar as top HW.
by bignerd on Dec 31, 2008 5:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You get over it, you big nerd, lol! J/K!
I think a lot of the WAMMA hatred was amplified by Lynch emailing threats to a BE member.
You know the funny thing is, if they just admitted they are avoiding UFC guys, I personally would have little problem with them.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d havea problem with them still but at least they would be telling the truth.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I probably would just be indifferent about them, rather than detesting them, which may actually be worse for a promotion.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a clarification, they are not avoiding UFC guys . . . UFC guys won’t let WAMMA belts be put around their fighters.
BTW . . . nice pic above!
by bignerd on Dec 31, 2008 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Has the UFC ever said that? What the UFC won’t allow is WAMMA being a part of UFC events, why would they care if they gave a guy a belt on his own time? If WAMMA had called GSP vs Fitch a WAMMA title fight and said GSP was their champ I doubt the UFC would care at all but the UFC isn’t going to promote that for them and they aren’t going to let them leach onto the events. WAMMA can’t do that because they can’t make money off the belt unless the UFC makes them a part of the show.
If someone installed the ring magazine style rankings and title system in MMA I doubt anyone(including the UFC) would have a problem with it.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Put around their fighters and given to their fighters are two different things.
Did you know we are in high demand, Laura?
by Eugene Schelfaut on Dec 31, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there any evidence that FEG will? Has FEG made any statements regarding the value of the WAMMA belt?
by Jahbulon on Dec 31, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is it with people whining about the UFC in regards to WAMMA?
Wasn’t the UFC around way before WAMMA?
The UFC has had an established way of doing business. They aren’t doing anything different this year than they were last year.
Why is it on the UFC to change the way they do business to benefit WAMMA?
Why should the most successful organization in the sport change the way it does business to help some new guy that has done virtually nothing for the sport?
I don’t get this quote:
Just a clarification, they are not avoiding UFC guys . . . UFC guys won’t let WAMMA belts be put around their fighters.
Please explain to me why the most successful organization in MMA the UFC has to change it’s way of doing business to suit WAMMA. The UFC was here long before WAMMA the UFC didn’t ask for WAMMA so why should the UFC do what WAMMA wants them to do?
by mattman73 on Jan 1, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They don't benefit..
from wearing such a title. But I think it is more that they could give a shit about the belt compared to the place they fight for.
Anyway, if WAMMA is really trying to say they have the best champions possible they should just name GSP, Anderson and Rashad as their champions in those divisions and accept that the belt can’t be on TV. Otherwise they can go back to trying to find hilarious “undisputed title fights” like Robbie Lawler vs. Matt Lindland
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 1, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point was how can anyone blame WAMMA not working on the UFC. Which is what this quote says to me:
Just a clarification, they are not avoiding UFC guys . . . UFC guys won’t let WAMMA belts be put around their fighters.
To me that says well if the UFC would just do what WAMMA wants them to do then WAMMA would work. The UFC didn’t ask for WAMMA they have no obligation to help them.
by mattman73 on Jan 1, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Confusion...
I was adding my thoughts ON TO your point…not debating with you. I knew we were saying the same thing.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 1, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So let me get this straight. If the UFC won’t don’t business with WAMMA than no other promotion is allowed to do business with WAMMA?
I know you classify WAMMA as a leech, which might be true in UFC’s case because they don’t need WAMMA to sell a fight. However, other promotions do benefit because WAMMA gives them another advertising pitch to sell their fight/event.
No belt awarding is perfect but I don’t see article after article attacking UFC current HW belt situation. 2 belts floating around in the same division and the guy everyone is touting as champion just lost to other belt holder 8 months ago.
by bignerd on Dec 31, 2008 5:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The thing is this
UFC champ-BJ
WAMMA #1 ranked LW-BJ
Dream champ-Hansen
WAMMA champion recognized by Dream-Aoki
So why wasn’t the Hansen/JZ fight for the WAMMA belt? You bring up a point about the UFC and 2 belts, which I actually agree with (at least it is getting resolved), but this is as bad, imo. The thing is, it makes it a joke to many fans. then you add in their BS statements and threatening stances, and they lose what ever shred of legitimacy they might have had. I personally, have no problem if they chose to have a non UFC champion and rankings. If anything, saying that Aoki is the best outside the UFC, would make an average person then want to see that fight happen. They are just a mess and I’m not really sure what it is they are trying to accomplish anymore, and I’m not sure they do either.
Unifying mma was a grand idea. It failed. So either re-evaluate things and make new goals, or go away.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Basic rule of scarcity: the more there is of anything, the less value each unit of the item has. One more belt = the other belts have less value. For real world example see boxing.
by Jahbulon on Dec 31, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
true, but I don’t think having 10 WAMMA belts would lessen the value of the UFC belt.
10 fake Honus Wagner baseball cards do not make the real thing less valuable, lol. In other words, the belts would have to be legit. that is the problem with boxing, there are 3-4 big sanctioning bodies who cancel each other out to an extent.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No your missing the whole entire issue, WAMMA claims their belt is the undisputed belt across all organizational boundaries, they aren’t crowning any old champion they are claiming their champion is “the” champion. If WAMMA stated that their belt was a club belt for organizations that want to work with them then there would be no problem here but they are claiming their belt is above everyone else’s belt in credibility and stature because it is a “true” world champion. This isn’t a UFC vs WAMMA issue it’s a WAMMA is pushing fake credibility and their own stated goals contradict with their own actions issue.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus, a belt is only as valuable as the champion that holds it. Fighters confer value on belts, not the other way around.
by Jahbulon on Dec 31, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great point!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 6:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was kind of my point earlier where I said it’s best just to ignore the belt if you don’t like the guy wearing it.
Exactly, if you don’t like Aoki as top LW than the WAMMA belt doesn’t mean anything to you.
by bignerd on Dec 31, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It has little to do with whether you like Aoki or not WAMMA’s own ratings say that BJ Penn is the top LW, that is the problem here. If people who understand that ignore it then people who don’t understand might actually give creedence to the crap they are pushing and confuse the whole situation even more.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Besides talking about issues is what we do around here, if people start ignoring things instead of discussing them this place is going to get awful lonely.
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, would the WAMMA heavyweight belt hold as much weight if Tim Sylvia had won that fight?
by who me on Dec 31, 2008 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Got to get going...
Happy New Year guys!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
by BJJDenver on Dec 31, 2008 6:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aoki beats the most overrated fighter of the year, in Eddie Alvarez, and now there’s talk of him being better than BJ. LMAO
Shinya is one of my favorite fighters, possibly my very favorite, but he would get destroyed in the UFC. Not only because of the different rules and conditions, but because of the tremendous increase in talent level he would be facing. He would get beat by sherk, by florian, by frank edgar, by spender fisher, tyson griffin, clay guida, and joe lauzon. Unless I’m forgetting anybody, he would fare ok against everyone else in the division. I would like to watch him fight roger huerta, nate diaz, manny gamburyan, these would be good match ups for Aoki.
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
by mma_dude on Dec 31, 2008 8:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Not sure who Spender Fisher is but I agree with your post sir.
I don’t see this guy beatng mid tier lightweights in the UFC.
by Gunslinger20 on Jan 1, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Shinya Aoki the best lightweight in the world? Very much up in the air. Rankings are a big debate! Could Aoki submit and beat every lightweight in the world when he’s on? ABSOLUTELY! The guys submission game is the best in the world!
by tylerdurden1 on Dec 31, 2008 9:17 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
WAMMA Legitimacy
As long as promoters are the ones promoting fights then WAMMA will never have legitimacy. Now that Aoki is their “undisputed” champion, what happens if he gets beat by a B or C level fighter? The Japanese promotions are notorious for lop-sided or freak-show fights… One doesn’t have to look further than last night’s DREAM card for an example.
"You can teach em' to type, but you can't teach em' to grow tits" - Charlie Wilson
by Legless on Jan 1, 2009 1:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this.
How can WAMMA be a legitimate sanctioning body if they don’t actually do anything a sanctioning body should be doing?
The promoters are the ones doing all the work.
by mattman73 on Jan 1, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another argument as to why Shinya Aoki isn't the best LW...
Recover soon Hellboy…
by Gunslinger20 on Jan 1, 2009 9:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Hellboy get beat by Alvarez?
I'm just a dude who's trying to put it together.
by mma_dude on Jan 1, 2009 6:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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