Machida AKA Mr. Overrated!
by NCSAR on Dec 29, 2008 9:36 PM EST
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PrintHere is the perfect post regarding Lyoto Machida.
"Overall he is a boring fighter that manipulates the rules in his favor to win."
This quote and the rest of this article ( and a great 205 pound explanation) can be found at http://www.mmaopinion.com/2008/12/28/205-pound-discussion/
Part of Machida's great following is due to his impressive undefeated record. He gracefully dances around the cage frustrating opponents and keeping them on their toes. Unfortunately for the casual fan of MMA, this dance just like the ballet is boring. I have tried to figure out ways the UFC could market such a fighter, and there truly is not many options. Especially when you truthfully take a look at his record. Sure he is unblemished but who has he really defeated that would qualify him the top contender? Out of every single opponant that he has defeated in the UFC cage only 1 is still in the organization. That fighter has never won and is 0-2 in the cage. The others have been cut or released due to contract disputes. Tito is a Brett Favre type that needs to fade off in the sunset, and Soukedju is going to get destroyed by Babalu in his next fight.
I understand the hype between this fighter, but lets pull back on those reins just a bit. How does he seriously out do Rampage and Griffin for a title shot? I know I am going to recieve hate from this post, but I welcome all debate.
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NO HATE
but if some of those guys were able to beat him they would probably still be in the ufc, and winning HAS to be the bottom line
There's two types of MMA fans.
There’s Machida fans, and there’s non-Machida fans. Both say something about how we view the sport.
Now we know what side you are on.
But on a less purist note, he’s going to have done a lot more to win the title than most of the past titleholders. His undefeated status is arbitrary and you seem to be making a bigger deal about than anybody I’ve seen that has praised him. I appreciate Machida more for the victories he does have. And for the record, the people he has defeated are of higher caliber than, say, BJ Penn (who he has"manipulated the rules" against in the past).
All in all this is a pretty poorly thought out post. If I could thumbs down it, I would.
Machida shows a diversified skill set and a unique style — what more could an mma fan want? He’s good on the ground and standing, and he’s shown he can finish a fight. The only knock against him is that he has yet to earn the respect of the UFC and many of the fans — that’s largely because the fans are ignorant and the UFC is greedy. He might be my favorite fighter.
That's just a big son of a bitch -- that's all there is to it.
I agree.
I would argue Randy Couture is infinitely more boring to watch than Machida, and they have comparable decision/win ratios.
And besides, decisions don’t automatically mean boring. I can see how you might think that, as some of them are. But there’s a difference between Coleman/Randleman/Sherk/Arona and Machida.
by KneeToTheFace on Dec 29, 2008 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Machida does have a ton of skills and a unique style. As an MMA fan, we can also want decisive wins – finishes.
Against vastly subpar UFC competetion, Machida has 1 finish in 5 fights.
He couldn’t finsih Sam Hoger. Couldn’t finish David Heath. Couldn’t finish Nakamura. Those guys aren’t even close to UFC caliber LHWs. He did finish Sokodjou, who was also beaten up by Luis Cane.
We should be pushing Luis Cane for a title shot if we’re going to make the same case for Machida.
He couldn’t finsih Sam Hoger. Couldn’t finish David Heath. Couldn’t finish Nakamura.
Rashad Evans couldn’t finish Sam Hoger. Neither could Stephan Bonnar. Shogun couldn’t finish Nakamura. It has less to do with the fighter they’re facing and more with the gameplan implemented. Some days, it’s just harder to finish guys.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
by FlyByKnight on Dec 30, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
All true. But when a guy is 1 for 5 in finishing fights, it speaks to his finishing ability.
Rashad brutally KOed Liddell, and TKOed Forrest. Shogun stopped tons of top fighters in PRIDE. Wanderlei is a known finisher, as is Rampage. Even Luis Cane is stopping people.
by Hardcharger on Dec 30, 2008 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
In the past 3 years he hasn’t beat anyone that I think pushes him into title contention. Rashad Evans did the same thing (kept winning ) and it took him 9 fights before he got the belt By my count Machida is at 5, in the same division. What grants him 5 and Evans 9?
B.J. Penn and Machida are hardly comparable. Penn is a solid striker with some of the best jits in MMA (not saying Machida is not a solid striker). His fights aren’t close to being boring. He is a marketable champ, and has beat top tier opponents.
If he keeps winning he will have his try for the belt, I just feel that it is a hard sell for a fighter who’s marquee victory is over a guy that hasn’t won a legit fight in almost 3 years, versus Rampage who is a former champ who has defeated three legends of MMA in 4 fights.
Well...
I think Machida will fight anybody they put in front of him. You can’t blame him for climbing the ladder like everybody else. I think this fight against Thiago Silva is his initiation of sorts against top-level UFC light heavyweights. Look for whoever wins that fight to go on to fight bigger, better fighters in that division. But in terms of Machida, just because he has fought relatively average fighters doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have the skillset to deal with top level competition.
by KneeToTheFace on Dec 29, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Machida has absolutely dominated everybody he's fought
He’s lost about 15 cumulative seconds of those 5 fights where as Rashad has squeeked by on some of his decisions
Also...
Machida came into the UFC with major wins already. Rashad did not. Rashad was more or less built from the ground up while Machida was most of the way there.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 30, 2008 11:02 AM EST up reply actions
I thought Rashad came in with wins as well.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Dec 30, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think you realize...
I don’t think you realize the shit storm you are about to receive…
I’ve asked this question before and I’ve seen others ask this question, the response wasn’t pretty…. Machida fans get down right dirty when you insult their boy and call him boring.
I understand what you are saying…. but I learned my lesson when I asked what the big deal was, I’m not taking a side on this subject.
One line sums this all up
"I think when [Lyoto] Machida fights you really get to see which fans appreciate MMA as a sport, and which just like to watch for random violence."
Think of it this way. Machida has not lost a round inside the UFC. A round. Not a fight, but a round. A freaking round. Think about that. How many rounds has BJ lost? Or Forrest lost? Or Rampage lost? Machida hasn’t lost one single round. Beaten guys like Penn, Franklin, Bonnar, Thierry, and Tito in his career. Machida is the man at 205. And he’ll prove it soon.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
His style is effective yet boring. Just because you don’t find the guy entertaining doesn’t mean your not an MMA “purist” – whatever that is. I’ve trained in muay thai and BJJ and I love me some quality technique – Macdonald v. Maia was awesome. On the same note, Machida’s constant backpedalling bores me. There’s effective counter-striking – Liddell, Anderson Silva, Rampage – and then there’s Machida. Everybody seems to have this misconception that “counter-striking” entails backing up and not throwing a punch until the spot is goddamn right in front of your eyes. Machida attacks when his opponent is so blatantly frustrated and making big mistakes while coming forward. A guy like Anderson Silva counter-strikes much more effectively by throwing harder strikes in more frequency by landing them in small little windows of opportunity his opponent gives him that most don’t even see.
To sum up: most of the time, Machida is pretty boring.
by dropkick101 on Dec 30, 2008 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
RUN AWAY!
The key words here are what MikeyJoe RogBerg keep saying over and over: elusive and evasive.
While this may be a good strategy for winning fights – as I will freely admit Lyoto does – it doesn’t make for a pleasureable viewing experience for me personally.
I love a good brawl, but I love a good display of technicality even more. Machida’s tactics don’t exactly resemble a ‘technical display of technique.’ To me, it resembles running away. Or more as this other post here points out, wait for your opponent to get frustrated into making a mistake. Solid strategy, poor fight-making.
I don't hate Machida, but I don't like him either.
He was throwing Tito around like a rag doll in their fight, so why not try and finish it? If Tito was so helpless dealing with Machida, why did the fight go to decision?
I don’t like the attitude that “If you don’t like Machida you’re not a real MMA fan.”. I don’t like Machida, but I appreciate technique as much as the next fan. What I admire more is the willingness to take risks and actually engage your opponent, and then win descisively using skill and tenacity. That’s why I’m a big Kenny Florian fan. Kenny finishes fights.
I’m indifferent on Machida. Sure he wins, but if you want to get a title shot in the LHW shark tank you need to WIN.
by Ubernoober on Dec 30, 2008 12:49 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
The key to fighting is to effectively neutralize whatever it is your opponent wants to do in order to give yourself the better shot at victory. Does Machida not do that? Just because some guys make it look better doesn’t mean they’re doing it better. Some call it running away. I call it using his head. He’s smart. He’s not going to just stand there and take punishment just for the chance to hit his opponent. He’s going to use movement in order to get the open spot that he wants. And when he finds it, he capitalizes on it. He decimated Tito Ortiz. Decimated. Ortiz could only muster a half-hearted triangle attempt in their fight. He took Tito out of his game. He took Thierry out of his game. He takes everyone out of their game by using his gameplan. He is constantly moving and getting you to open up for him to unleash his straight left or leg kicks. Watch him fight. There is no wasted movement. Every move he makes is to set something else up with a feint or something of that nature. Everything he does is so calm. That’s why people cannot relate to him basically. He fights so calm, without emotion, that it drives people insane. He’s very methodical. He’s not boring, he’s not horrible, and he’s not running away. He’s methodical. And there’s nothing wrong with methodical. If there was, he’d have been out of the UFC by now. To put it into perspective, no one had a single problem with Randy Couture riding out Tim Sylvia for five rounds. He was tossing Sylvia around like a rag doll in their fight, so why not try and finish it? If Sylvia was so helpless dealing with Randy, why did the fight go to a decision? It’s the same ideal and same situation. It’s because both guys are methodical. Couture has more of a killer instinct some of the time but Machida is more well-rounded and more methodical than Randy actually is.
The fact remains that people cannot stand Machida because of the fact that he’s an original fighter. There hasn’t been one like him before and probably won’t ever be one like him again.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
Decimated? You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means.
There’s nothing wrong with methodical and on a certain level my hat goes off to a guy who can find a way to win. On another level, I don’t enjoy his fights because he has so much potential to destroy people and refuses to do so. And if he’s in a main event, there’s going to have to be one hell of a card overall for me to buy the PPV.
I love watching Machida fight
To each his own – there are many knowledgeable MMA fans out there who don’t like his style. That’s fine. For me, watching Machida fight is like a work of art. He knows exactly what is going on at all times in the fight. He is the epitome of what a martial artist should be. I believe that he can beat anyone in the division.
He does not just ‘run’. If Machida spent three rounds running he wouldn’t be getting 30-27 decisions in all his fights. He strikes his opponents very cleanly and very obviously in front of thej udges who can’t do anything but award him the round. The one thing abuot Machida that is clear (and has been mentioned above) is that he has never even lost a round. I have no doubt that if the Tito fight or any other fight that Machida has been in continued ad infinitum he would continue to win every round and eventually would knock his opponent out through cumulative damage.
Once Machida wins the title he will reign supreme for a long time. Also – his KO ratio will definitely go up in five round fights. Machida doesn’t not want to finish the fightm but he’s smart enough to know that if he tries to finish fights his risks increase. In this sense he will be gambling against his opponent. He doesn’t like to take that gamble. However if the percentage chance to finish the fight is worthwhile he will take it and finish the fight.
Rampage, Silva, Chuck etc are all fighters first and martial artists second. There are few pure martial artists in the UFC (as to fight in the UFC you need a certain mentality) and in my eyes Machida stands alone (although I may consider inculding BJ Penn in this category).
cheater?
I have never seen Machida cheat. He avoids damage and dishes out damage when the opportunity presents itself. Cheater or brilliant fighter? I like the statement ‘a pure martial artist’ by rainmaker6. He has beaten Franklin, Penn, Tito etc… I am always happy to see Machida on a fight card because I wonder if his opponent will be the first to actually put him into trouble. Until then, his record speaks volumes and the fact that he is undefeated means he has done his job as a martial artist.
I'll be back to add more in the next twenty-four...unless, by some mishap, someone K.O s FEDOR.
End of story
Argue all you want about whether Machida is overrated or underrated. Ask yourself this question:
Would you pay $45 to watch Machida fight a clone of himself?
I sure as hell would not. What would happen? It would look like two magnets repelling eachother around the cage. Every now and then they would resist the force constantly pushing them away and shoot in for a leg kick, or a flashy double kick right before they are once again repelled from the center.
While this scenario is impossible today, if Machida wins the title with his lacklustre style, you’re going to see copy cats. You’ll see a bunch of Kalib Starnes out there high tailing it around the octagon and landing a punch or a kick periodically in order to win decisions and collect paychecks. When this happens, the UFC can get rid of the cage, institute a mat, and require gis. The only reason Machida is “different” or “unorthodox” is that he fights in a promotion where the general consensus of the roster of fighters is to finish fights. Don’t let the fight go to the judges. Be exciting, build a fanbase, and win endorsements. If everyone gave that up, and started point fighting like Machida, it would be a very boring and unsuccessful sport
Btw, stop including BJ Penn in Machida’s list of victories. If Brock Lesnar beat Sean Sherk, would you consider that a credential? Machida was a heavyweight at the time, and BJ currently holds the lightweight title, and still Machida couldnt finish that fight. I challenge anyone to watch that fight in one sitting. It’s absolutely brutally boring. Anyway, that fight has no bearing on whether or not machida deserves a shot at the LHW belt.
by dwv114 on Dec 30, 2008 10:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Machida should be figting in a point karate tournament somewhere..not in the UFC.
by lbk on Dec 30, 2008 11:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
i’m not a big fan of machida but he’s damn good. he’s boring sometimes, but not always.
You guys need to give credit where it’s due. He’s undefeated in the UFC.
Let’s rephrase. If you learned Machida was giving a clinic in your town, would you attend?
This post has very poor logic. Comparing the quality of his opponents with whether or not they’re still in the UFC is stretching it at best. Ortiz beat Griffin and outperformed Rashad, both the most recent title holders in the LHW division. Soku had notable wins. Stephan Bonnar is a very strong fighter who is never easily beaten. Same with BJ Penn. The only person Rich Franklin seems capable of losing to is the p4p #1 in the world Anderson Silva. I have never seen Machida in trouble. Never seen anyone even close to finishing him. Then you claim that your opinion on a fight that hasn’t happened has some bearing on Machida’s current status as LHW contender?
In the division, you can make compelling arguments against and for anyone getting a title shot. Who had Forrest beaten to get a title shot? An out of shape and injured Shogun? Who else? Not Jardine. Not Ortiz.
I admit I like Machida. He’s got this peaceful zen samurai warrior way about him that I dig. I find your logic against him poor and that’s putting it lightly. The only person I can’t argue against getting a title shot is Rampage, whose only fought top tier fighters and only barely lost the one he did lose, and was mostly out of his head when he did.
Also, how can you be overrated when you’ve not only never been beaten, but you’ve never even been close to being beaten, and there’s no one that seems to have the skill set to beat you? There’s nothing to rate you against.
It’s the opposite of poor logic. A fighter has to have earned a title shot. That’s not done by having unimpressive and/or boring wins against guys who have gotten run out of the UFC due to not being UFC caliber (and getting beaten down/stopped by guys NOT getting LHW title shots).
Tito is a good win. Stephan Bonnar was 5 years ago, and isn’t even relevant. BJ Penn is 2 or 3 weight classes below Machida, so that’s ridiculous.
Forrest Griffin beat, by submission, the guy who was the #1 rated LHW in the world at UFC 76. That’s a better accomplishment than Machida has even to this point in his career (and at that point, Machida hadn’t even beaten Sok or Ortiz yet).
You can complain about poor logic, but you haven’t even come the least bit close at providing reasons why it’s poor, because you can’t, as your posts are (admittedly, by you) based on being a Machida fan. You’ve even admitted that Rampage deserves the next title shot, which is all anyone is stating to begin with.
I always enjoy his fights. I’m always curious at how one would finally beat such an ‘elusive’ fighter. I could say that I’m a fan of his, but i also why others are put off by his performances.
However, I don’t think that they’d give him the title shot until he gets that highlight reel finish. Thats how Rashad got his. Or maybe if the champ, whoever it is, is a proven draw.
The fighter who has awesome skills, but never seek to finish the fight
^it just doesnt matter how talented or awesome He is in the Octogon.
A fighter who never seeks to finish the fight disgusts me and SHOULD NO LONGER CALLING HIMSELF A FIGHTER.
On the other hand, THIAGO SILVA always finishes the fight and i hope he finish this one brutality to show what is a FIGHTER who steps in the OCTOGON.
*even if Machida wins, i dont think he’ll get the title shot soon unless he finishes fight
You have to beat the legend, in order to become the LEGEND
-Melvin Manhoef (after his destruction of Sakuraba)
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