An Ultimate 2008 Retrospective
by cyph on Dec 28, 2008 1:02 PM EST
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Print2008 MMA has almost come to a close with one of the better UFC's in a while. As a matter of fact, the most recent UFC's have been extremely entertaining. The unpredictability of MMA and the destructive force of one well placed much is never more apparent than watching the results of UFC 92 unfold.
What can we reflect on this?
1. The modern MMA game has evolved tremendously in the last few years. Real athletes are coming in as evidenced by the great NCAA wrestlers of the current era. People assume that wrestling is a great base for MMA, the reason for why wrestlers are making huge waves in MMA today. However, that is only partly true. It has less to do with wrestling as a great base (but it is that) but more to do with great athletes than anything. Before Lesnar, Evans, and Dollaway are great wrestlers, but they are great athletes first. People wonder what would happen to the MMA game if great athletes choose MMA instead of the other sports. We are seeing the results of that unfold before our very eyes right now.
2. Old superstars are falling by the wayside as new superstars are replacing them at a much faster clip. MMA fans are unable to reconcile the losses of their cherished athletes. Already, many fans are asking for Nogueira to retire because he just doesn't have it any longer. These fans need to wake up and realize that modern MMA has supplanted the MMA of the past era. Can I say for a fact that Nog didn't lose anything since his transition from Pride? No, but that ass kicking of last night was more the result of a better fighter defeating him than of Nogueira losing anything significant. This brings me to the next reflection.
3. Nogueira, who supposedly had an iron chin and is one of the legends of the sport, has never looked good in the UFC. He was taken apart by Sylvia (of all people) in the standup, nearly knocked out by Herring, and then systematically dismantled and KO'ed by Frank Mir for the first time in his life. Did he really lose his ability at 32 or has the MMA game evolved much faster than he has? I choose the latter. I would also suggest that Pride was complicit in creating a facade of supermen by their behind the scene antics, unfair yellow card system, and biased refereeinh. Look no further than Silva, Noguiera, Shogun, CroCop as exhibits A, B, C, and D as fighters unable to cope with the modern era.The Pride defenders will try to bring up Rampage and Anderson Silva to refute this. However, Rampage were disadvantaged by the "the man" but blossomed once the playing field was leveled. Silva was just a blip on the radar back then but he's unquestionably is a different fighter today than before. I'll stop now before I turn this into a tirade against Pride which is not my intention.
4. The myth of the weak heavyweight division should be thrown away and never mentioned again. Many current heavyweight fighters are unfairly left low on the yotem pole because of the notion that old veterans who have ceased to fight legitimate oppositions get to cling on to the high ranking because of their past fights. As we already learn, the quickly evolving MMA game today cannot be compared to the MMA game of 4 years ago. Fedor deserves his #1 spot until he is beaten because he's earned it. However, the rest of the heavyweight ranking needs a serious reshuffle. Unbeatable and iron chin doesn't mean as much today as it used to.
In 2009, we should get rid of our old prejudices and preconceived notions. No fighter is unbeatable. The great legends of tomorrow is already in the making. We should be ready to embrace change because the young fighters of today are already supplanting the legends of yesterday. We should get used to expecting the unexpected and enjoy a great 2009.
Happy New Year everyone!
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Nice job and valid points on each topic. However, I do disagree with some of them.
1-Spot on. I can’t tell you how many times the phrase “he is just a better athlete” was uttered by us last night.
2-You actually hit the reason more in the 1st topic, imo. “older” fighters are falling by the wayside BECAUSE the new generation is better athletes. Are many guys like Liddell or Randy significantly worse than they were a couple of years ago? Not really. But the new generation is made up of better athletes and more well rounded fighters, typical iof any burgeoning sport. I believe as mma is growing, it is attracting a higher level of athlete.
3-This is probably where I disagree with you the most. Unfortunately, sometimes athletes DO get old overnight. Nog is 32, but in mma years he is more like 132. He is slower and just plain doesn’t move well. It is a miracle he has accomplished what he has in his life. And Sylvia, whom i can’t stand, is actually a very good striker. While there is no doubt that the “mixed” in mma has evolved and passed by some guys, i just don;t think that was the case here. And how in the world you mix Shogun in with Silva, Nog and CC, is beyond me. He is young and pretty much epitomizes what the new generation is. I hope you aren’t basing that opinion off of one uninspired performance against Griffin, which he was actually winning before he gassed out.
4-The problem with the HW division, is it is about 10-12 deep, and then scattered across the world. Certainly there are some up and comers, but it is weak. Look at the HWs on last nights card. for every good, exciting HW, there was at least one guy that had no business at the UFC level. I have to say, as much as I support promotions competing, the HW division is really what is suffering from this.
Again, excellent write up, and even though I disagree some, your points still have validity and are certainly worth a discussion.
“No fighter is unbeatable”—Damn straight! This is what I think the evolution of mma has made us recognize. 2008 was an amazing year for the UFC and 2009 should be awesome.
Happy New Year to you Cyph and to everyone at BE!
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
I mentioned Shogun, Silva, Nog, and CC because I believe that Pride was mostly smokes and mirrors. I can’t reconcile the fact that fighters who were previously seemingly invincible is now so human. Based on their results in Pride, these fighters should have demolished everyone in the UFC and they haven’t. The most damning thing about it is that over here, they are slower, more tentative, and chinny. What has truly changed between then and now? As an original Pride mark, I’m more and more disillusioned with the illusion of Pride.
I don’t totally disagree with you on the Pride topic. I just think it is premature to put Shogun in that conversation.
I think all those guys are big fish, but they are just in a bigger pond in the UFC of today. Obviously, there are factors that can be attributed to the lack of success, age, style, cage/ring, etc…
I just want to reserve judgment on Shogun for another year. I truly hope he gets back in the form we saw dominate Pride.
Eliot Marshall: Bader won. Like I said in the episode, I'm not going to make any excuses. It's my job to be able to deal with when somebody's doing that. It's not his job to change up his tactics.
http://eliotmarshall.com/
Allow me to address the elephant for a moment...
Rings create a completely different fighting environment from the cage. At least half of the tactical decisions are impacted by the ring vs. cage, probably more like 3/4 when it’s all said and done.
Also, knees to the head of a downed opponent significantly alter a fight plan. Add the ropes with the knees, and I think you can start to come up with awfully good reasons why the translation from PRIDE to UFC is going to weed out some people stylistically.
Agreed on Shogun. I’d like to see him round back into form and provide even more depth to the LHW field.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
I agree that ring and cage makes a difference but I think you are overstating the effect of that difference, it’s going to change game plans but MMA is still going to be MMA regardless of the fight surface.
It is really too soon to write Shogun off the guy lost one fight, to a guy who would go on to win a belt no less. It doesn’t matter how he lost or why one fight is still just one fight.
Very well thought out…
I would only add to your third point:
PRIDE DIDNT TEST!
Now other overseas orgs and even orgs in the US who put on unsanctioned events don’t test… but they dont have the caliber of fighters that pride had.
Here’s the result of not Testing:
Some fighters coming out of pride who now look like shit and other fighters coming out who look awesome…
I guess you can tell who in probability used and who in probability didn’t.
Again Im not talking about run of the mill, garden variety roids here…
Im talking about pumping yourself up with shit where for the next few hours you can punch through a wall and not feel it.
The guys who didnt use look much better because they are now fighting people who resemble close to what human is…
I am only assuming but I suspect Fedor to look even more impressive now that his opponents could actually get hurt/knocked out.
Well done !
Today’s MMA enviroment does not allow fighter’s to make mistakes. Every fight requires a well thought out game plan and just because you have KO power doesn’t mean you can just wait to counter punch your opponent and KO them. We should all be looking forward to an exciting future for this sport we love.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
I cannot leap to such conclusions
Shogun’s an example of a fighter that’s done because he lost to Forrest? I’m sorry, I just can’t write off fighters this quickly.
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 28, 2008 3:16 PM EST reply actions
I wasn’t saying that Shogun is done as a fighter. I am saying that his performances in Pride and the UFC are stark in contrast. There is a real disconnect between performances for those fighters I mentioned. It’s more an indictment at the illusion of Pride than any of these fighter’s ability. Mmalogic explicity stated what I was alluding to.
Well, he doesn't have 'performances' in the UFC yet
Just the one ‘performance’ – which, admittedly, wasn’t his best, but what looked like a major upset then now looks like Forrest’s breakout moment. In addition, Wanderlei has lost to two top five LHW since arriving (because I don’t think Chuck is done, either) and Nog just lost his fifth fight out of forty to a former HW champion that looked like a house on fire.
I’m not shoveling dirt onto their respective careers yet.
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 28, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Nog is done the others... No
Nog has gotten noticeably worse from the moment he got in the Octogon. He fought Herring whom he dominated twice already and while he mostly dominated him he couldn’t finish because he just wasn’t as quick as he used to be… He caught a headkick on the chin that would have KO’d anybody else and his chin was still there… I think that is the last time I can say his truly iron chin was on display. Then against Sylvia his reactions were slower and he got badly outboxed and he seemed slightly chinny but he was able to get him down and secure the sub. Now against Mir who’s standup was horribly ugly every time he got touched he went down and his reactions were like a 90 year old man. He needs to get out while he can still think. Make Randy your last fight Nog!
Shogun fought Griffen with a torn ligament in his knee and was winning until he gassed because you can’t condition with a blown out knee. Thats more a testament than anything. Wand can probably make 185 and would have a resurgence if he can without having to kill himself to make weight. Oh yah – It was a Pride fighter that just KO’d him btw.
The factors in Japan MMA were not only about your skill, technique, endurance, etc…
There was another Factor that affected most fights and that was:
How much shit you were willing to pump into your body.
Its always cute when people try to claim (with no evidence of course) that everyone in PRIDE was juicing. If there was any truth to it, then the same logic would apply to any UFC without random, unscheduled testing as well. Everyone knows a pre-scheduled test is about challenging to beat as no test at all if the athlete knows how to cycle properly, and thats all the UFC did until very recently in most sanctioned states. They still don’t do comprehensive drug tests for their UK shows.
Anyway, I’ll let you get back to your fantasy world
Sorry to break your Pride bubble…
Beating a test with cycling is a far cry from pumping yourself up with shit an hour before the fight.
No one said everyone was using… learn to read.
ITS A FACT THAT PRIDE DIDN’T TEST… its not a fantasy.
Because they didnt test you don’t know who was and who wasnt shooting up and more importantly TO WHAT EXTENT.
Use some common sense. If fighters are getting busted when there’s actual testing (ie: in the UFC) you think fighters weren’t using in pride?
You think fighters werent pumping themselves up with pain killers or other non steroids before fights?
There’s shit you can take an hour before a fight and you’ll be fucking superman.
Cheating is cheating dawg. I don’t doubt that some PRIDE guys were getting pumped up right before fights, but to suggest their biggest and best fighters were all hopped up on painkillers without any evidence would be very presumptious. The fact is, aside from those that admit it or get busted, we likely will never know which guys in UFC and PRIDE were doping.
Can’t we at least be thankful that fighters DO get busted in the UFC occasionally, whereas they NEVER EVER did in Pride?
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2008 3:18 AM EST up reply actions
No. The UFC is evil.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 29, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
When Nog was in his prime he actually had footwork and could pull the trigger, last night he could do neither. It has nothing to do with PRIDE, he is just past his prime and several steps slower than he used to be.
He looked disturbingly like Oscar did against Manny. I still have trouble believing Nog is only a year older thann I am. He looks at least as old as Randy does, and I think it’s because of the numerous beatings he’s taken over the years.
Actually if your point is that Nog has been damaged into a early decline then PRIDE would have to do with that as they were the ones booking the majority of those fights and the schedule he was fighting.
Pretty sure he meant “smoke and mirrors of PRIDE had nothing to do with it.” I would very much agree his freakshow fights and heavy schedule played a big factor in his decline.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
It’s just not right to say that it had “nothing” to do with Pride because it seems that it always comes back to them regardless of what anyone believes is the issue here.
Fair point.
I see what you mean.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I think Mirko may be a clear example of roids, possibly Shogun as well, simply based on the way their performances changed.
Nog was just slow and old, being tagged by the same (mediocre) combination over and over again.
I think size is just a gigantic issue for Wanderlei Silva. You watch a number of his fights from Japan and you notice his size advantage is a constant. He fought a bunch of very small dudes, I don’t think it is a surprise that his win in the UFC came against a smaller 205 fighter. Similarly I think he’d give Rashad problems.
I am totally not a proponent of telling guys to switch weight classes when they lose, but that is the only real option for Wanderlei if he wants to attain glory again in his career. I think he’d kill most guys at 185, and then be competitive with Henderson and Anderson. He’d also really help out the UFC by adding star power to that division. One stunning thing about being at this show was that Wanderlei was the second most popular guy behind Forrest Griffin. The fans took to him big time.
by Michael Rome on Dec 29, 2008 3:36 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know how long Leben is out, but if I was the UFC I’d line up fights with guys like Mcfedries, Quarry, and Leben in short succession. Let wand get his confidence back—if he can’t knock these guys out at 185 then he really is done.
by Michael Rome on Dec 29, 2008 3:38 AM EST up reply actions
Plus there’s a real dearth of big, power hitters at 185, so for Wandy I think that’s the right place for him to go. But he’s also going to be tromping on Damien Maia’s toes isn’t he?
In this case, I think he’s going to need to take a good 6+ months off and then begin to get comfortable and establish himself in a lower weight class, so really he’d be giving Maia a fairly large time period in which he could make a run for the belt before he really inserts himself into the picture.
Oh and cyph – if I’ve managed to do this properly I think I got our sig bet taken care of here.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
by The_Gaijin on Dec 29, 2008 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like your version better. =)
I’ll let you get your revenge on the next UFC or 94. BJ Penn is going to rock GSP’s world. It’s a lock!
You sir
Have yourself another bet!! My fellow countryman is going to knock BJ’s pudgy butt into next week (well into the week following their fight).
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Well originally I spent some time during my undergrad doing an exchange in Southern Asia and then travelled there for a summer – which is where the handle came from.
Now I’m back in my home and native land practicing law – which shows you where my lack of intelligence, rational thought and objectivity comes into play ;)
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Agreed
Where do I put my money down?
by Derek Suboticki on Dec 29, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
How is Nog old? I think Nog came in with his usual strategy of take a few hits to get the submission.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Dec 29, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Nog is 32 I believe, same as Silva.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
32 is not old – come on guys.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Again, 32 is not old at all. But in a sport where the objective is to remove your opponent from consciousness or bend a limb in a direction it’s not anatomically supposed to, it’s getting long in the tooth. Especially when you consider the fact that the fighters have resumes longer than your leg and have been fighting professionally since they were 18.
Just like 35 is not old, but in football/boxing/hockey basketball you’re considered to be a fossil.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Cyph,
I think you’re completely discounting the fact that fighters like Nog and Silva to a lesser extent are teh MMA equivalent age of 100. They’re both 32 but iirc have been fighting professionally since they were 18 and on top of that they’ve been involved in some major wars.
Unfortunately we’ve only really got to see these two fighters on the downside of their peak in the UFC rather than at their pinnacles (2001-2004). Yes they have looked like lesser fighters than they previously were, but it’s unwise to think that fighters cannot age overnight (they certainly can) or that the wars of their past cannot quickly begin to catch up with them.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I’m not down on Nogueira at all. I think the fights in Pride made people think of these fighters as better than they really were. I’d rather give credit to Mir. This guy was championship material back in the early days and he’s regain what he lost. He’s a talented guy and people are discrediting his win by saying that Nogueira has lost his ability. No, the fighters in the UFC are much better than they appear. People need to stop using the old Pride footage as a reference point.
It’s no secret that Pride fighters were more ferocious and faster than the fighters in the UFC back in the days. Now, it appears everyone’s fighting at the same speed. Nog’s reflexes aren’t down, it’s more normal. That’s all I’m saying.
1.) You’re right – I don’t want to take any credit away from Mir’s victory. He came out with a fantastic gameplan and looked completely motivated and better than I recall EVER seeing him.
2.) Nog just looks slower and completely flat-footed these days…if I’m understanding correctly, you think it’s because he (and others) are no longer able to fight without any boundries on what they use to get themselves ready for fights (i.e. PED’s, etc.) as well as other outside factors. On the otherhand, I think this is a fighter that’s been fighting professionally for over a decade and in that time has absorbed tremendous amounts of punishment as part of his strategy to catch his opponents with a submission, not to mention that in some cases it didn’t work and he was subjected to 25 minutes of unhuman punishment (see: Fedor x 2.5). I just think that the grind of the years and his rope-a-dope strategy (for lack of better term) are starting to catch up with him. It could very well be a combination of ALL of these factors, in any case, to disregard the amount of damage he’s taken over the years as one of the primary factors seems a bit biased in order to prove a point.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
I would subscribe to your theory if only Nog was the only guy who’s fallen off his horse since the transition to America. There’s a who’s who list of fighters. Cro Cop is one. Then there’s Shogun. I don’t buy the injured knee excuse. If he had a ligament tear, there is no way he could train let alone fight for three rounds against former champ Forrest Griffin.
I have archived videos of these fighters in their glory days in Pride and have done comparisons side by side of their speed, mannerisms, reflexes, and demeanors. There are stark differences in Cro Cop, Wanderlei, and Shogun. Nogueira has never been a speedy guy and he’s routinely been beaten to a pulp by lesser men (Bob Sapp). Let’s review his record and look at it objectively.
Notable wins: Dan Henderson (middle to light heavy, 15 minute war), CroCop (submission), Kharitonov (15 minute war), Werdum (another war), split with Barnett, Heath Herring (3 times), and Tim Sylvia. He’s never truly dominated anyone. He’s always been outstruck by better strikers and stalemated against average strikers. All his wins have been decisions or submissions. The rest of his wins were against cans.
To me, the guy who showed up was Nogueira. He didn’t lose anything. Heath Herring has been trounced by every top UFC fighter. Werdum has been KO’ed out of the UFC. Dan Henderson has lost both of his Pride belts to UFC fighters (he’s still one of the best, but at middleweight). Nothing needs to be said about Cro Cop. Bartnett, IMHO, is a big fraud and I’m sticking to it. The UFC fighters are just that much better. There’s no way around it.
The wool has been pulled over our eyes.
Shogun: Well – I believe there’s athletes that have ligament tears/sprains/strains that they initially think do not require surgery that are then exacerbated or were not properly diagnosed and require surgery far after the fact. I know I had the same issue with my MCL.
And so far we’ve only seen 1 fight with Shogun that he was looking pretty good for the first half, to then gas out and have the tide turn decisively in Griffin’s favour. Now that we’ve seen Griffin is the real deal and how huge of a LHW he is, I think I’m going to reserve judgment on him until we see a few more fights.
Wanderlei:
Silva looked like he’d regained his mojo and up until this last fight looked as if he belonged in the cage with the top guys at 205. I think we’re just seeing how he’s now become the undersized fighter in a majority of his fights, maybe we’ll see some different results, if and when he moves down to 185. And to be frank his downslide in terms of performance was beginning to be evidenced while he was still in the PRIDE ring.
Cro Cop: is the one guy that fits the bill better than anyone else you’ve described. He’s not the killer he once was – but he’s looked like crap everywhere, even in DREAM, which is the smoke and mirrors that PRIDE once was.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Shogun DIDNT TRAIN
There was an interview with Werdum who was the Jiu Jitsu coach over at Chute Boxe and he said Shogun didn’t roll once from the time of the injury to the Forrest fight. Didn’t roll, didn’t run only worked mitts and sparred lightly.
Shawn Merriman did the same thing
Injured his knee then went on to non contact practices and would only play at game time – tried to play 1 game on it. Went like 2 defensive series then pulled himself out and got surgery
See my post below
Esp. about Dan Henderson losing both of his belts to UFC fighters. ROLLS EYES…
To say the UFC fighters are just better is quite a moronic statement.
Crocop is crap all round right now. Nobody knows why. I agree Nog has look crap in every fight in the UFC. I would put it to age and his reflexes slowing down. But to say there has been wool pulled over your eyes just means that when you were watching Pride you were a little ignorant of what you were watching. Pride has more hype, but you had to recognize it for what it was….hype. There was no way Sakuraba would have ever beat W.Silva. If they fought 10 times out of 10 Sakuraba would lose all 10. Yet Pride hyped the fight like it was a fight between two top contenders.
Remember that in Japan – being a huge star is more important than being a top fighter. This is the case to a certain extent in the US but generally speaking the UFC puts more emphasis on sport.
That was my point. Pride was less sport than a big hype machine. However, most fans bought into it. That’s why everyone expected Shogun, CroCop, Nogueira, Wanderlei to domininate once they came over here. It hasn’t been the case because of the unknown sleight-of-hand jedi mind tricks over there.
If you’re telling me that you didn’t bought into what they were selling and realized that most of it was trickery all this time, then I would have to say you’re not telling me the whole truth.
The New Era
Cyph’s post is almost starting off an anti-Pride tirade. It shouldn’t be viewed in that light but I also think Cyph and other comments made are missing a few points:
1. Whoever said Dan Henderson lost both his Pride belts to UFC fighters…please note that both Rampage and Silva originated as Pride fighters. Both have definitely improved since fighting in Pride but if you’re making that distniction I think it’s disingenuous to say that either Rampage or Silva are UFC fighters (in my mind they are all UFC fighters).
2. Juicing – I agree some of the Pride fighters probably juiced. That’s not to say everyone who juiced is a rubbish fighter now. W.Silva definitely looked a lot bigger in Pride than he did in the UFC. But lets not forget he still obliterated Ketih Jardine (someone who has the fearsome Jackson camp and it’s master game-planning behind him). He did fight many chumps in Pride and beginning in 2005 he began to show that he wasn’t the force he used to be at his prime of 27 or 28 when he lost to Arona in the 2005 MW Grand Prix.
3. Lets look at the overall picture. No one from the ‘Pride’ era who was dominant then is dominant anymore. It’s not just fighters from Pride who are ‘unable to cope in the modern era’. Those guys who were at the top then include:
UFC: Arlovski, Liddell, Franklin, Hughes
Pride: Nog, W.Silva, Shogun, Gomi
On September 23rd 2006 Matt Hughes beat BJ Penn at UFC 63. At the time Matt Hughes was thought to have been an unbeatable force at 170. Now look where he is. If BJ Penn fought Matt Hughes again would anyone think that Hughes would win? What about if Hughes fought Koscheck or Fitch. Who would bet on Hughes? The younger, stronger, better trained and better conditioned athletes have passed by the old guard. How old is Matt Hughes? 35.
At UFC 64 on the October 14 2006, Anderson Silva took on Rich Franklin. At the time Rich Franklin was thought by many to be the favourite in this fight. Here’s a quote from 411Mania (a website that I’m personally not very impressed by as they generally don’t know what they are talking about and cater to the casual fan – but it’s the only preview I could come up with with a 1 second google search):
“Meanwhile, Franklin does it all. He’s a jack of all trades, and it’s hard to label him as a certain type of fighter. He doesn’t have the polished standup that Silva has, but his standup is good enough that he can survive should the fight not hit the ground. The one thing we haven’t seen much of is Franklin on his back, and this fight will not change that as Silva doesn’t have what it takes to take the fight to the mat consistently (nor would he probably want to). Franklin’s superior game-planning and all-world conditioning give him the edge here.”
Everyone knows that happened after that fight.
On the 26 May 2007, following this biggest ever hype for a fight including a cover spread on ESPN the Magazine and multiple national talk shows as well as a cameo on HBO’s Entourage (my favourite TV show of all time) Chuck Liddell was many fight fan’s number one LHW. He got knocked out by Quinton ‘Rampage’ Jackson in 1:53 and has been recently brutally knocked out by the winner of a reality TV show.
What goes up must come down. The only person to yet fall is Fedor and his time will come. Not that I don’t believe he is an awesome fighter but everyone has their downfall. It’s not Pride or UFC, it’s just the way sports are.
4. Having more fights definitely takes a toll on your body, especially if you’re style is like Nog’s and you take punishment during the fight. One reason why Couture is still able to fight at or near the top is he smiply hasn’t fought as much as some of the other guys. Randy has 25 fights since 1997. Big Nog has 37 fights starting in 1999. He has fought much more often and much more consistently than Randy.
5. Pride had more hype. Some may refer to this as smokes and mirrors. The fact is that many of the top Pride guys would fight bums once in awhile to build their credibility. People who didn’t follow Pride since the early days will have seen highlight reels of Wand destorying Japanese fighter after japanese fighter. People like Tatsuya Iwasaki, Hiromitsu Kanehara and Ikuhisa Minowa. These guys were put in with Silva so he could destroy them. The UFC does this much less for it’s fighters. For this reason Pride guys were seen more as supermen. It’s part of the way the Japanese promoted MMA, as a spectacle and not a sport. Many people bought into the hype.
6. I would equate a 2005 GSP to a 2005 Anderson Silva. Lots of potential – nowhere near the finished product. Now both are dominant champions.
7. Agree 100% with Cyph that more athletic fighters are getting into MMA. GSP was the beginning of this but we are seeing more and more top athletes choosing MMA as their career. These athletes will be the guys who destroy the current crop of top dogs. The time will come when GSP and Brock Lesnar get the **** kicked out of them like Thiago Alves did to Matt Hughes.
8. No fighter is unbeatable. Styles make fights and everyone loses. That’s what I love about MMA.
by rainmaker6 on Dec 30, 2008 3:04 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Very nice comment.
Bolts from the Blue // "It is what it is." - A.J. Smith
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Dec 30, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
5. Pride had more hype. Some may refer to this as smokes and mirrors. The fact is that many of the top Pride guys would fight bums once in awhile to build their credibility. People who didn’t follow Pride since the early days will have seen highlight reels of Wand destorying Japanese fighter after japanese fighter. People like Tatsuya Iwasaki, Hiromitsu Kanehara and Ikuhisa Minowa. These guys were put in with Silva so he could destroy them. The UFC does this much less for it’s fighters. For this reason Pride guys were seen more as supermen. It’s part of the way the Japanese promoted MMA, as a spectacle and not a sport. Many people bought into the hype.
- Hardcores seem to have a double standard. Squashes would get trashed roundly if put on in North America but it somehow becomes acceptable/watchable because the Japanese fans like it.
I think a lot of people got caught up on the Pride vs UFC fued back then similar to the Monday night wrestling wars, it became as more about the organizations as it was the actual fights. The fact that many people still identify fighters as Pride fighters and UFC fighters even though the fighters actually represent the camps where they train not who was signing the paychecks (or that Pride doesn’t even exist anymore) is very telling.
Nog looked sick
Didn’t anyone think that Nog looked totally lost during his fight with Mir. He looked like a sickly version of himself. He didn’t attack, didn’t attempt for any take downs. He looked fat and weighed in over 10lbs heavier than his usual fighting weight. All credit to Mir for the win but I truly believe the ‘normal Nog’ didn’t show up.
My name says it all
I have to jump into this one because I think that some apples are being compared to oranges. Wouldn’t it be nice if everything that was allowed in Pride (knees to the head of a downed opponent / soccer kicks etc…) were also allowed in the UFC which allows elbows to a downed opponent. These are all legitimate and fair fighting tactics and would not be a step backwards to the original no holds barred era. Unfortunately, this is not possible and fighters have to adapt to the rules of the UFC. For me, both organizations (past tense for Pride) put on great shows and I was a fan of the fighters…not just the show.
Regarding Nog…he has always been about the submissions. CroCop was killing him in the stand up before Nog was able to pull off a submission. Mir was in top form and he is an example of what you are saying with regards to the evolution of MMA. CroCop, too, was an up and down fighter in Pride and he looked terrible against Overeem. He had some good fights but he also had some terrible fights. Silva has always been a crowd favorite and he has not changed that much since Pride. So far, he has not disappointed me in the UFC even with his losses.
For me Fedor has always been the best and I hope that he comes to the UFC to fight guys like Mir, Randy, Cain, Lesnar etc… You are correct in the statement that he could lose to any of those guys but my gut tells me that he would not since he seems to be an example of your point regarding the sport. The fact that he will always be considered the poster boy for Pride is a moot point. I would still respect his skills were he the poster boy for the UFC. The Pride / UFC comparisons are not valid because they are two very different entities.
Bottom line…I agree that we are going to see the changing of the guard as the new fighters get their chance to prove themselves. Fedor, I hope, will be in that mix and hope it is in the UFC where one sees the best opportunities for great match making.
Nog will keep fighting
Silva too
Rua will do well I predict
CroCop has fallen from grace but can still have a good fight now and again…I don’t think he will ever rise to the top though (he only won the tournament that Fedor and other top competition were not involved in) and he has never been a Pride champion in the true sense of what that means.
MMA dictates that if you stay in the game long enough, you will lose.
Peace and props to what Pride did and to what the UFC is doing.
I'll be back to add more in the next twenty-four...unless, by some mishap, someone K.O s FEDOR.
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